Making sapient Lifeless

[Mistchemist16]

Hello y’all. I was thinking about sapient Lifeless and wondered what you could do with them. Some questions…

1. How many Breaths do you need to guarentee a sapient Lifeless?

2. Can you make a Lifeless from the body of a Sliver whose Cognitive Shadow was sticking around? Especially since it’s the Breath that gets a personality and not the person?

3. If a Lifeless had multiple Breaths, could you harvest better Hemalurgic spikes from them?

4. Could a Lifeless kandra or mistwraith self repair more effectively and last longer than a human?

 

Edit: When I said Hemalurgic spikes, I was more thinking of traits like senses. Not the actual animating Breath. (though just about any trait should work)

2nd edit: To clarify, I mean sapience specifically. Not just sentience like Clod has

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[cometaryorbit]

1) who knows. More Breaths would mean more self-awareness if used effectively (vs just a less efficient Command) but no idea what the threshold for sapience is.

(Technically, I think even regular lifeless are sentient at some level- they're not just meaty automatons.)

2) I don't see why not. Once the Cognitive Shadow is gone the body is mostly just a body. The Lifeless might have very interesting Connections though. And if the Sliver was highly Invested you might get a much more intelligent Lifeless - Clod had more going on than the normal Lifeless bc he was a Returned who died with Breaths.

3) I think WoBs are not 100% consistent on whether Breaths are spikeable, but likely not, at least not unless they're kinetic (in transfer) at the moment of theft

4) no idea

 

[Treamayne]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:36 PM, Mistchemist16 said:

thinking about sentient Lifeless

Do you perhaps mean "sapiant?"

From Wikipedia:

Spoiler

Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations. - Emotional reasoning and instinct

Wisdom, sapience, or sagacity is the ability to contemplate and act productively using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense and insight. - Logical reasoning and deduction

We've already seen evidence of Sentience from Clod/Arsteel.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

17 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

1. How many Breaths do you need to guarentee a sapient Lifeless?

2nd edit: To clarify, I mean sapience specifically. Not just sentience like Clod has

You can't. Fully sapient Lifeless, like Returned, is impossible to make as a Type 2 Biochromatic entity. If it gained sapience it won't be Lifeless anymore, it would be Returned. Lifeless is only "Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host". Making it not mindless would make it not Type 2 anymore. Intent matters.

Moreover, the number of Breaths doesn't determine the strength or intelligence of Awaken object. Vasher Awakens with hundreds of Breaths, and no object ever start "talking" to him. Intent matters. It's also Law of Comparability - "The amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn't necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened".

But Lifeless already are sapient to some degree. They have a brain, they can "think" or at least better interpret commands. Someone might argue that Lifeless are sapient in that way, but we know we're talking about Returned level sapiency. That's just impossible.

The question you should be asking is can you Awaken Returned and how much Breaths would it cost - 2500 Breaths, that's how much Divine Breaths is worth, but can humans do it without Shard. I don't know. But that's interesting to speculate. You would need to catch someone's souls in CR and infuse it with Investiture and Command. It might be possible with right Intent and Command, but it might also require some way to connect the soul back to its body. That artificial Returned won't also have access to Fortune and future visions like Shard made Returned. 

17 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

2. Can you make a Lifeless from the body of a Sliver whose Cognitive Shadow was sticking around? Especially since it’s the Breath that gets a personality and not the person?

Yes you can. His body is already dead and separated from his soul. Your Breaths replace that soul.

17 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

3. If a Lifeless had multiple Breaths, could you harvest better Hemalurgic spikes from them?

Yes, he's more invested, you can take that investiture away. 

17 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Edit: When I said Hemalurgic spikes, I was more thinking of traits like senses. Not the actual animating Breath. (though just about any trait should work)

In that case I would say no, as Breaths power them. More Breaths doesn't mean stronger Lifeless or awaken objects (Vasher explained it). So Lifeless made out of 50 Breaths would be as strong as Lifeless made out of 1 Breath, if similar bodies were used. The same goes with all senses and other abilities. Lifeless retains a level of skill and abilities that it had in life.

17 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

4. Could a Lifeless kandra or mistwraith self repair more effectively and last longer than a human?

This is an interesting question. Clod couldn't regenerate his body, Jewels had to maintain it, sew the wounds and replace muscles. This means Lifeless body doesn't have regenerative functions of the living body, because well, it's dead. So Kandra-lifeless won't have them as well, as this is the same process we're talking about, but Kandra can do it much faster than humans. So I doubt they could do it or even change shape.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You can't. Fully sapient Lifeless, like Returned, is impossible to make as a Type 2 Biochromatic entity. If it gained sapience it won't be Lifeless anymore, it would be Returned. Lifeless is only "Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host". Making it not mindless would make it not Type 2 anymore. Intent matters.

Well, that's not entirely true.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Sees the Lifeless and Takes Command of Them

They keep them in the dark. This is a bad idea. They don't realize it, but the Lifeless are far more aware than everyone assumes. Clod in this book is a foreshadowing of that, and there won't be much more about it in the rest of the novel. It's one of the focus points for the sequel, if I ever write it. (Which will actually have a Lifeless as a viewpoint character, if I can find a way to swing it.)

Warbreaker Annotations (March 21, 2011)

 

[Mistchemist16]

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You can't. Fully sapient Lifeless, like Returned, is impossible to make as a Type 2 Biochromatic entity. If it gained sapience it won't be Lifeless anymore, it would be Returned. Lifeless is only "Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host". Making it not mindless would make it not Type 2 anymore. Intent matters.

Moreover, the number of Breaths doesn't determine the strength or intelligence of Awaken object. Vasher Awakens with hundreds of Breaths, and no object ever start "talking" to him. Intent matters. It's also Law of Comparability - "The amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn't necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened".

But Lifeless already are sapient to some degree. They have a brain, they can "think" or at least better interpret commands. Someone might argue that Lifeless are sapient in that way, but we know we're talking about Returned level sapiency. That's just impossible.

The question you should be asking is can you Awaken Returned and how much Breaths would it cost - 2500 Breaths, that's how much Divine Breaths is worth, but can humans do it without Shard. I don't know. But that's interesting to speculate. You would need to catch someone's souls in CR and infuse it with Investiture and Command. It might be possible with right Intent and Command, but it might also require some way to connect the soul back to its body. That artificial Returned won't also have access to Fortune and future visions like Shard made Returned. 

 

A few points to make about your response to my first question

1. Saying that you couldn’t make a sapient Lifeless because it wouldn’t be a Type II is almost certainly wrong. It would be a flaw of catagorization if anything and I’m pretty sure Vasher puts Returned in the same group anyway. On top of that, there’s no reason to think that failing to make a sapient Lifeless would create a Returned instead. 

2. Even if it requires more sophisticated Commands, we know that large amounts of Investiture can bring about sentience. Just look at Nightblood. And Lifeless have the advantage in this regard since they start off more complex

3. Part of why I asked about the Splinters is exactly because it’s the Breaths themeselves and not the original soul that create the new being. WoB says

TurtletheFlsh

What would happen if you created a Lifeless with more Breath then is necessary? Would they be more or completely human or just a Lifeless that's holding more Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless with more Breath are an interesting situation. It's quite possible for the BREATH to start taking on a personality, much like a Cognitive Shadow, related to the individual. Whether or not it is actually them, though, is a big question. Note, this doesn't always happen. Often, dumping a lot of Breath in them is like sticking it in an inanimate object with no Command.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

4. I’m not sure about Awakening a Returned like entity. On one hand, you could argue that the Shard is necessary to make a Physical Realm transition. If you don’t, then the soul sticks around longer like a Hemalurgic recipient but they couldn’t get back. On the other, there’s a lot we don’t know about this specific system and the broader uses of Investiture. So I wouldn’t necessarily rule out the possibility. It’s just highly impractical

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

A few points to make about your response to my first question

1. Saying that you couldn’t make a sapient Lifeless because it wouldn’t be a Type II is almost certainly wrong. It would be a flaw of catagorization if anything and I’m pretty sure Vasher puts Returned in the same group anyway.  

2. Even if it requires more sophisticated Commands, we know that large amounts of Investiture can bring about sentience. Just look at Nightblood. And Lifeless have the advantage in this regard since they start off more complex

3. Part of why I asked about the Splinters is exactly because it’s the Breaths themeselves and not the original soul that create the new being. WoB says 

Alright, let me clarify what I meant. I'm assuming you want to create a fully aware, fully sapient/sentient Awakened body with free will. In the image of what Returned are (Returned are Type 1), but not like they are made. It might be possible, but by the categorisation it won't be Lifeless or Type 2 anymore, as it is now much more "alive". Yes, we know Lifeless are aware, some are more than others, like Clod, but they are not fully sapient/sentient yet, and definitely don't have free will.

To create that, we need more than just putting Breaths into the body, we need a new Command. Command for Lifeless is "Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and my word". It doesn't provide any room for free will. But new Commands can be made. 

By WoB you provided (nice one), it also would require the right Intent. If you don't want free will, then with the right intent and enough Breaths, you could bring the dead body's personality back. That Lifeless might be also more aware. But would it be fully sapient/sentient? I don't know.

So you have lots of Breaths and dead bodies. Can you Awaken it with right Command, and right Intent so it gains full sapience/sentience, full awareness. total free will. and starts talking and reasoning like Nightblood?  Would its personality take the shape of a deceased person's personality, or would it be determined by your Command/Intent? For this I don't have an answer. It might be possible, similar to how Nightblood was created.

 

But there is no number of Breaths that you can just put into the body and it will become fully sentient. You need more than that, you need Command and Intent at least - that's why I said it's not possible in the first post, as simply putting more Breaths into Lifeless won't necessarily make it sentient. And that's what I was arguing about. 

38 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

On top of that, there’s no reason to think that failing to make a sapient Lifeless would create a Returned instead

Failing to make a sapient Lifeless means no sapiency, so no Returned. You get just regular Lifeless. What I meant is success in making sapient Lifeless would make him more like Returned, much less like Lifeless. I wouldn't call it Lifeless anymore. So yes, it's a flaw in categorisation as you are making something that is not categorized, but that result would be much more closer to Type 1, than Type 2. Type 1 is "Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host - Returned". 

38 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

4. I’m not sure about Awakening a Returned like entity. On one hand, you could argue that the Shard is necessary to make a Physical Realm transition. If you don’t, then the soul sticks around longer like a Hemalurgic recipient but they couldn’t get back. On the other, there’s a lot we don’t know about this specific system and the broader uses of Investiture. So I wouldn’t necessarily rule out the possibility. It’s just highly impractical

Impractical? You think that the ability to create Cognitive Shadows by a regular person is impractical? For now only Shards or huge amounts of investiture can do it. If there is a way for Awakener to make artificial Returned (Cognitive Shadow) it would be extremely practical. You could bring dead loved ones truely back to live.

[Mistchemist16]

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Alright, let me clarify what I meant. I'm assuming you want to create a fully aware, fully sapient/sentient Awakened body with free will. In the image of what Returned are (Returned are Type 1), but not like they are made. It might be possible, but by the categorisation it won't be Lifeless or Type 2 anymore, as it is now much more "alive". Yes, we know Lifeless are aware, some are more than others, like Clod, but they are not fully sapient/sentient yet, and definitely don't have free will.

To create that, we need more than just putting Breaths into the body, we need a new Command. Command for Lifeless is "Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and my word". It doesn't provide any room for free will. But new Commands can be made. 

This does describe pretty well what I’m looking for. Word of Brandon implied that you could get the Breaths together and they would form a new personality that may or may not be similar to the host.

I will also concede that I didn’t give proper respect to Commands and Intent within my explanation. However, I was also assuming to an extent that they were relatively minor hurdles. It would likely require an Awakener with actual experience alongside Breaths, but after that, the rest is easy.

Assuming these appropriate Commands and Intent are discovered, you probably could create an entity that shares traits of Lifeless and Returned. Using existing terminology, it would probably be considered Type I because it can think. If we use the Law of Comprability on Nightbloood, we can assume you’d need around a 1000 Breaths but that also assumes Lifeless don’t get any boost from their known complex behavior.

 

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

Impractical? You think that the ability to create Cognitive Shadows by a regular person is impractical? For now only Shards or huge amounts of investiture can do it. If there is a way for Awakener to make artificial Returned (Cognitive Shadow) it would be extremely practical. You could bring dead loved ones truely back to live.

Let me clarify. I didn’t mean impractical as in something useless. I meant that it may be difficult to actually pull off. 
 

1. If I remeber correctly, the dead don’t stay in the Cognitive Realm for long, barring extraordinary circumstances like Slivers. In other words, you don’t just need to dive into the Cognitive Realm: you’d need to be near the victim when they die. That could make some resurrections tricky

2. You’d need over 2,000 Breaths to apply. Again, could be tricky to gather.

3. Depending on how you read the resurrection process, you may need to manipulate Connection. 

4. You’d still need to feed the artificial Returned Investiture on a weekly basis

Though looking back, it’s mostly impractical for Nalthis as we know it now. Assuming it can assemble a greater knowledge base on Investiture and foster wider cooperation, like we see between nations today, it could see some usage. Even finding the dead isn’t a problem if you’ve prepared in advance where they will die. I could imagine some sort of center by hospitals where an Awakener is waiting on the Cognitive Realm to revive the deceased. You still might struggle with resources to varying extents, but that simply makes it less accessible, not impossible.

Oh and you better not piss off Endowment somehow because that would make this whole operation way harder.

[alder24]

I just stumbled across this WoB about Feruchemy:

Spoiler

AndyGranny

If you used a Lifeless body, would a Lifeless be able to access an untapped metalmind...

Brandon Sanderson

An unkeyed type of metalmind?

AndyGranny

Thank you, I could not think of that word. Would they be able to access an unkeyed metalmind if the intent when the Lifeless was created, if the intent was that they could...

Brandon Sanderson

Right, I see what you're getting at. Yes, they could. As they could access and use any tool that is appropriate for what they're Commanded to do, they could indeed access a metalmind in the same way.

In fact, doing so may, depending on the metalmind, be dangerous for keeping your Lifeless a Lifeless.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

What metalmind do you think could have that effect? I think aluminum with Identity, duralumin with connection, or nicrosil with Investiture - as if Lifeless gets more invested it would expand its "soul" and gain it or something like this. I also thought about Zink with mental speed, but this would just make him think faster and I don't thnik it would be enough to make him fully sapient.

Should I put this all in spoiler tag? 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I think that gold would be the most likely to mess with it.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I think that gold would be the most likely to mess with it.

I don't know if there is any spiritual or cognitive image for Lifeless to heal to. There is some cognitive image, as Lifeless are aware, but I don't think this image includes soul repair and sapience. It depends on how the Breath that makes up the soul of a Lifeless perceive itself. If it feels it's complete, there is nothing to heal, if it feels that it lacks something, like a soul, it could heal the soul back. Afterall Breath is always attached to a soul, in a Lifeless that Breath might want to be with a soul again. If that's the case, which soul would it heal back? A new soul, depending on Lifeless personality? The Lifeless original soul that was with it when it was alive? The Awakener's soul? Or the person's soul who was born with this Breath?

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Aware enough lifeless should recognize they are missing free will. All BS said was "be dangerous for keeping a lifeless a lifeless." If a Lifeless gains free will, and the ability to heal wounds, is it still a lifeless, or does it become a different type 1/2 type entity?

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Aware enough lifeless should recognize they are missing free will. All BS said was "be dangerous for keeping a lifeless a lifeless." If a Lifeless gains free will, and the ability to heal wounds, is it still a lifeless, or does it become a different type 1/2 type entity?

What Lifeless needs is to get a soul. That would fix everything. Lifeless doesn't have a soul, they have 1 Breath that just gives them enough to be Lifeless. If they would gain their soul back, I think the command imposed by 1 Breath would not be able to break through much more invested soul (investiture resist investiture), and Lifeless would just stop being Lifeless, either become Type 1, or be fully alive again like normal people.

That's why I chose Identity, as it could create a soul by self-perception. Connections as well, as soul is kind if a bunch of connections to everything, nicrosil if it contains investiture that could be his soul or something like that. Gold as you mentioned as well, but that's only if Breath perceives itself disconnected from soul and would want to fix it.

If you want a Lifeless to remain a Lifeless, as he follows commands etc, he can't be invested too much, because then his Breath would not be able to break through that investiture to enforce its Command. Investiture resist investitur, people can't be Awaken as they have souls, they are invested. 

[Frustration]

A relevant WoB

Spoiler

PhantomMonstrosity

How many Breaths would be fair to turn a mistwraith into kandra-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Turning a mistwraith to a kandra would be hard with Breath. It doesn't give sentience.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/137/#e7249