Frustration's Firepower Index: Feruchemy

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

And if there is no increase in density there is no increase in force, and thus the hits are entirely, normal.

That's not how force works. He's repeatedly said it increases mass and force is determined by mass. Weight is determined by mass and gravity. And it's established both in books and WoB that it's mass that's changing not gravitational pull. F=MA, it's a pretty simple equation, more mass means more force.

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

That's not how force works. He's repeatedly said it increases mass and force is determined by mass. Weight is determined by mass and gravity. And it's established both in books and WoB that it's mass that's changing not gravitational pull. F=MA, it's a pretty simple equation, more mass means more force.

If mass increases but volume does not density must increase.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

If mass increases but volume does not density must increase.

In traditional physics yes, but as you yourself said Feruchemy breaks physics. But it's generally consistent about how it breaks physics.

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

In traditional physics yes, but as you yourself said Feruchemy breaks physics. But it's generally consistent about how it breaks physics.

Yeah, by not affecting punches, as the WoB said.

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, by not affecting punches, as the WoB said.

Two things 

That's a bad argument and you know it. You know quite well what i meant by consistency This is why people say you argue in bad faith. 

Secondly, you're still wrong. That's not physics consistency, it's not even narratively consistent as we have two examples of weight increasing to blows

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Two things 

That's a bad argument and you know it. You know quite well what i meant by consistency This is why people say you argue in bad faith. 

Secondly, you're still wrong. That's not physics consistency, it's not even narratively consistent as we have two examples of weight increasing to blows

Look, I'm not here to have an argument, I have tried to persuade you but that is clearly not going to happen.

I am making the executive decision to go with the WoB linked above. Iron feruchemy will not be considered as increasing the force of any attacks.

[lacrossedeamon]

Sounds like maybe we need to break the monopoly on Firepower Indices and introduce competing threads into the marketplace of ideas.

[StanLemon]

11 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sounds like maybe we need to break the monopoly on Firepower Indices and introduce competing threads into the marketplace of ideas.

I mean, the Firepower Indices were Frustration's idea and they have every right to make that interpretation and decision for their ranking. So I let the matter drop. Would I let an argument like that fly in another thread like a vs thread or if someone asked what the advantages of F-Iron are? Not a chance.

However I view these more as fun exercises in ranking the strengths of different magic systems with Frustration asking for thoughts on things, even if they live up to their name a little too well sometimes. So despite my disagreement with the decision I still encourage the idea of these continuing. I think trying to codify these worlds and magic systems this way was a clever idea. If someone wants to create their own breakdowns and rankings I encourage that as well

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sounds like maybe we need to break the monopoly on Firepower Indices and introduce competing threads into the marketplace of ideas.

I'm of the idea that competition leads to innovation, go for it.

[Tglassy]

A few things I would note is that you don't need bracers, you need metal.  A Feruchemist can create an entire suit of armor that would be resistant to Shardblades, as long as it was invested enough.  For someone who is not compounding, Iron would be best, as storing weight isn't much of a detriment, but a Feruchemist with what is essentially plate armor made up of various metals would be extremely difficult to defeat.  

They can also create weaopns that can deflect Shardblades.  I don't think it would make them supernaturally sharp, but at the very least Shardblades wouldn't cut right through them.  And they'd be repositories of attributes, for an emergency.  

And let's not forget Unkeyed Metalminds.  A full Feruchemist can create an Unkeyed metalmind of any kind of metalmind they want to.  Medallions are iffy, becasue we don't know exactly how they're made, but at the very least, they could have a team of Feruchemists or Ferrings storing attributes for them.  

In fact, I'm sure there are all kinds of things a Feruchemist could do allon their own.  They can manipulate Connection, Identity, and Investiture.  Pretty sure they're the only ones in the Cosmere who can naturally do all of them.  

Oh.  Tapping Connection lets them learn the language of the area they are visiting, making them perfect Ambassadors or spies. 

They can also heal from being spiked, if I'm not mistaken.  So technically, you could spike one while they're tapping Gold, creating a Hemalurgic Spike, and they'd heal right up and you'd still have a Hemalurgic Spike.  No need to kill anyone.  They can create an army of Ferrings.  Ferrings they can use to store attributes for them without even making an Unkeyed Metalmind.  

I feel like Feruchemists have a lot more going for them than Allomancers, evne if Allomancers are the more flashy ones.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by Tglassy

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

A few things I would note is that you don't need bracers, you need metal.  A Feruchemist can create an entire suit of armor that would be resistant to Shardblades, as long as it was invested enough.  For someone who is not compounding, Iron would be best, as storing weight isn't much of a detriment, but a Feruchemist with what is essentially plate armor made up of various metals would be extremely difficult to defeat.  

They can also create weaopns that can deflect Shardblades.  I don't think it would make them supernaturally sharp, but at the very least Shardblades wouldn't cut right through them.  And they'd be repositories of attributes, for an emergency.  

And let's not forget Unkeyed Metalminds.  A full Feruchemist can create an Unkeyed metalmind of any kind of metalmind they want to.  Medallions are iffy, becasue we don't know exactly how they're made, but at the very least, they could have a team of Feruchemists or Ferrings storing attributes for them.  

In fact, I'm sure there are all kinds of things a Feruchemist could do allon their own.  They can manipulate Connection, Identity, and Investiture.  Pretty sure they're the only ones in the Cosmere who can naturally do all of them.  

Oh.  Tapping Connection lets them learn the language of the area they are visiting, making them perfect Ambassadors or spies. 

They can also heal from being spiked, if I'm not mistaken.  So technically, you could spike one while they're tapping Gold, creating a Hemalurgic Spike, and they'd heal right up and you'd still have a Hemalurgic Spike.  No need to kill anyone.  They can create an army of Ferrings.  Ferrings they can use to store attributes for them without even making an Unkeyed Metalmind.  

I feel like Feruchemists have a lot more going for them than Allomancers, evne if Allomancers are the more flashy ones.  

Most of those require additional people. I'm basing this off of what a single person* with these abilities could do, using only that power, so hemalugy is off the table.

 

*The exception being where the abilities themselves allow for more people, such as Squires, Lifeless, Skeletals, or Aviar.

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Most of those require additional people. I'm basing this off of what a single person* with these abilities could do, using only that power, so hemalugy is off the table.

 

*The exception being where the abilities themselves allow for more people, such as Squires, Lifeless, Skeletals, or Aviar.

Alright.  Well, tapping Connection to learn languages and creating Invested Armor/Weapons doesn't require other people.  

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

With regards to the iron feruchemy debate, Wax explicitly states that tapping Iron adds force, but he has to hit in a certain weight, essentially dropping himself onto the target. He is referring to a wall, but there is no way it does not apply to people as well.

Also, @StanLemon, if a WoB and a book contradict, then the book is correct, however, this WoB does not actually contradict the book, it just says a character is mistaken. It recontextualizes it, not contradicts.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Also magically changing the mass of something makes F=MA and conservation of momentum (initial MV= final MV) not play well together. Mass changes, so velocity changes to counter, so acceleration changes, so force changes. I’m more a chemist so crunching the numbers would give me a headache, but that’s part of it.

I think a Feruchemical warrior should also probably have a goldmind skullplate or something similar. It would take a hefty goldmind to regrow an entire body, but it should technically be possible, or at least keep you alive long enough for a theoretical allied Truthwatcher to save you. And yeah, don’t discount F-Duralumin.

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

Also, @StanLemon, if a WoB and a book contradict, then the book is correct, however, this WoB does not actually contradict the book, it just says a character is mistaken. It recontextualizes it, not contradicts.

It does contradict though.

There are two WoB at play in this discussion. One is about changing of density, this one had Sazed and Wax say two contradictory things about Iron changing density so that WoB clarified which of those two is correct. This is the one saying the Sazed was mistaken.

The second WoB is the one contradicted by the books. That one said increasing mass doesn't transfer force in blows. This is directly contradicted in WoA and HoA. The HoA scene in particular could only make sense if increasing weight increased the force of the blow.

Edited January 16, 2023 by StanLemon

[Proletariat]

I'd suggest neck bracers, and light chain mail would be useful for countering shardblade users since so long as you're not decapitated you have a chance to heal from pretty much any wound with gold. Duralumin is another one I'd also emphasise further in that if you accrue enough in your metalmind then you can not only communicate with others, but it's suggested you get the potential to persuade or even compel others if you have enough stored.

[Frustration]

On all points regarding armor, the average ring weighs around 7 grams and takes weeks to fill(WoA page 484). Armor weights around 70kg, meaning it would take over 10,000 times longer to fill, and works out to over 500 years of storing to fill.

[Tglassy]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

On all points regarding armor, the average ring weighs around 7 grams and takes weeks to fill(WoA page 484). Armor weights around 70kg, meaning it would take over 10,000 times longer to fill, and works out to over 500 years of storing to fill.

And yet, you added "can make a singularity" into a list of assets.  

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And yet, you added "can make a singularity" into a list of assets.  

I never once mentioned singularities.

Now, I did mention perpendicularities, which is what I'm assuming you are referring to, and as you will note there was a clause added that if the amount of Investiture stored in two large metalminds and an implant was not enough, then don't try to do it, and use different metals instead.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Frustration