Mistborn V.S. 3rd Ideal Lightweaver

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, would illusions have atium shadows? Atium is kind of a special case, but it was a relatively normal (though carefully hoarded) ability of Mistborn during TLR's rule.

Atium is fast burning so they probably couldn't use it in the entire fight with a Radiant... but I don't know that using illusions to surprise-Shardblade a Mistborn is going to work, with the combination of bronze (or maybe copper*) and bursts of atium. (Shallan's giant army of illusions in OB was perpendicularity fueled, I don't think a Lightweaver can have "a billion illusions" up for long in normal circumstances.)

Even if illusions won't work, they still have healing at least as good as Gold Feruchemy, the physical grace/dexterity/speed enhancements of Stormlight (which are probably comparable to Pewter Allomancy, though the strength enhancement seems less than Pewter's), and an one-hit-kill Shardblade. So they definitely still have a good chance. But the Mistborn's sensory abilities and much better mobility is really powerful here. Lightweavers' powers (as opposed to say Windrunners/Skybreakers) are not particularly well adapted to fighting Mistborn.

(If the Mistborn is later era when atium isn't generally available but duralumin and electrum are, there's also the possibility of a duralumin boosted Rioting which might be pretty incapacitating to many Radiants due to their high rate of psychological issues. Electrum shadows might also help the Mistborn ignore illusions, but I think that takes unusual degree of training - Vin, with her exceptional Allomantic intuition, didn't see it as useful for anything but countering atium.)

I think Vin would defeat a Lightweaver (certainly with atium and likely without), but she's got double strength bronze, very high paranoia, slightly above average Allomantic strength, and exceptional mobility skills (horseshoe flight).

*copperclouds don't block Lashings, but Lashings set off Odium's screamer spren, where Lightweavings don't. So a coppercloud still might interfere with illusions. I doubt it would just destroy them completely, because I think Lightweaving uses actual Physical light and sound - it's not a purely Cognitive effect - but it might still mess them up.

Edited March 10, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration he/him]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:07 PM, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

She is above every Soulcaster we've seen, and is of the Fourth ideal. If she wasn't above the Third ideal average, Jasnah would have to be below average in skill.

I think it is possible that they do not on average have the ability to soulcast as we see Jasnah soulcast. You're not changing my mind without evidence.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I have found evidence that Jasnah is not unusually skilled.

Spoiler

Haverworthy

What would happen if you tried to soulcast a shardblade-wounded limb back to regular flesh with a heliodor? Would it regain function?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a partial RAFO, I'm afraid. Soulcasting to flesh is complicated, and the level you're asking for is well outside the skills of any living soulcaster. Most likely, you'd end up with a lump of nondescript meat instead of an arm.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14294

 

 

Brandon does not say it's impossible, or that it requires more power, only skill. And Jasnah is included. However he specifically says living soulcasters, meaning that there have been those skilled enough in the past. Therefore Jasnah is not unusually skilled, and a Lightweaver can soulcast a hallway.

[NameIess]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Sorry to bring this back up, but I have found evidence that Jasnah is not unusually skilled.

  Reveal hidden contents

Haverworthy

What would happen if you tried to soulcast a shardblade-wounded limb back to regular flesh with a heliodor? Would it regain function?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a partial RAFO, I'm afraid. Soulcasting to flesh is complicated, and the level you're asking for is well outside the skills of any living soulcaster. Most likely, you'd end up with a lump of nondescript meat instead of an arm.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14294

 

 

Brandon does not say it's impossible, or that it requires more power, only skill. And Jasnah is included. However he specifically says living soulcasters, meaning that there have been those skilled enough in the past. Therefore Jasnah is not unusually skilled, and a Lightweaver can soulcast a hallway.

Jasnah is not good at Soulcasting organics, by her own admission. And considering that some of the heralds were soulcasters, I don't think we can assume that just because Jasnah can't do something that takes an insane amount of skill and also lies outside her specialty, she is therefore not above average in Soulcasting ability. It's like saying that because Kaladin can't keep up with Leshwi consistently, he's not above the average Windrunner in skill.

Also as we discussed earlier, the hallway can be broken with duraluminum.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Jasnah is not good at Soulcasting organics, by her own admission. And considering that some of the heralds were soulcasters, I don't think we can assume that just because Jasnah can't do something that takes an insane amount of skill and also lies outside her specialty, she is therefore not above average in Soulcasting ability. It's like saying that because Kaladin can't keep up with Leshwi consistently, he's not above the average Windrunner in skill.

Heralds are alive, and as Ash says they were more restricted than radiants were.

3 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Also as we discussed earlier, the hallway can be broken with duraluminum.

I still dispute this, whether or not they would kill themselves doing it, they cannot push hard enough to break that much stone.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Heralds are alive, and as Ash says they were more restricted than radiants were.

The Heralds don't have access to surges. Besides, my other point still stands. Jasnah hasn't practiced much with organics and isn't very skilled in Soulcasting them to begin with. 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I still dispute this, whether or not they would kill themselves doing it, they cannot push hard enough to break that much stone.

I think they could, as long as they had enough steel on them.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Besides, my other point still stands. Jasnah hasn't practiced much with organics and isn't very skilled in Soulcasting them to begin with. 

So you admit that Jasnah is not the pinacle of skill and a Lightweaver have equal or greater skill would not be unusual?

2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I think they could, as long as they had enough steel on them.

How much steel is enough?

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So you admit that Jasnah is not the pinacle of skill and a Lightweaver have equal or greater skill would not be unusual?

I admit that Jasnah is not the best in every single aspect of Soulcasting, as should be obvious. The average Lightweaver will not have greater or equal skill. There may be exceptional individuals with more skill, but for the purposes of this discussion we are taking the average.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How much steel is enough?

Not sure. Considering what a normal steel pull/push can do, I'd say a few hours worth should do fine.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

The average Lightweaver will not have greater or equal skill.

Why not? What evidence do you have for Jasnah having greater skill?

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Not sure. Considering what a normal steel pull/push can do, I'd say a few hours worth should do fine.

A few hours?

To break through a foot of stone?

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Why not? What evidence do you have for Jasnah having greater skill?

A few hours?

To break through a foot of stone?

In my opinion, Jasnah's feats speak for herself. We've discussed the details at length in this thread. And a few hours condensed into a single moment is more than enough to punch through a foot of stone.

However, I'm going to be honest: I don't find arguing any rendition of Radiant vs. Mistborn or Scadrial vs. Roshar to be productive or enjoyable, and I don't see any point in continuing this discussion further. I think it's clear that neither of us are going to change our minds.

Edited March 16, 2023 by UnfortunatelyNamed
Typo

[PinkPlasma she/her]

ok so here's my thing with the lightweavers. they have the potential to make any apponent blind, by just putting an illusion of darkness over their face. idk abt you guys, but its hard to dodge a shardblade if you can't see.

[PinkPlasma she/her]

ok more in-depth reasoning of why i think the lightweaver would win. first, off they can make bright lights and loud sounds. so the mistborn is either stunned and dazed the entire fight, or they have no tin. all the lightweaver has to do is coat the whole area around the mistborn in darkness, then have their voice come from a hundred different directions. completely disoriented either way. time bubbles are a good pause button but don't solve the illusion problem. they could spray coins in all directions but the lightweaver can just turn their sword into a shield until they get up close. they can run away but then the second they do that the lightweaver can just coat a huge area around them in darkness and take cover with their shield until the mistborn comes back. maybe copper will kill off illusions in the cloud, but the darkness outside the cloud would still make the fight so much harder. and illusions still aren't even the dangerous power. soulcasting has tons of dangerous potential. turn the ground into oil, and hide it in an illusion, the second the mistborn lands to search for you, their ignited in flame. or a hundred other options, what if they soulcast all the mistborns metal vails so they're just filled with blood? now they are out of metals and very disturbed. soulcast their steel and iron anchors while theyre pushing/pulling. that would totally mess them up. the problem here, is that we haven't actually seen any lightweaver use their powers well. would shallans fake army have been more usefull than making every enemy soldier blind with blazing light in front of their eyes? or bursting their eardrums with fake thunderclaps? she absolutely had the stormlight and connection to the spiritual realm to do it, the problem is that she isn't thinking that way, and if all lightweavers are like that, then yes they will lose. but the lightweaver has far more potential than we have seen

[PinkPlasma she/her]

12 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

ok more in-depth reasoning of why i think the lightweaver would win. first, off they can make bright lights and loud sounds. so the mistborn is either stunned and dazed the entire fight, or they have no tin. all the lightweaver has to do is coat the whole area around the mistborn in darkness, then have their voice come from a hundred different directions. completely disoriented either way. time bubbles are a good pause button but don't solve the illusion problem. they could spray coins in all directions but the lightweaver can just turn their sword into a shield until they get up close. they can run away but then the second they do that the lightweaver can just coat a huge area around them in darkness and take cover with their shield until the mistborn comes back. maybe copper will kill off illusions in the cloud, but the darkness outside the cloud would still make the fight so much harder. and illusions still aren't even the dangerous power. soulcasting has tons of dangerous potential. turn the ground into oil, and hide it in an illusion, the second the mistborn lands to search for you, their ignited in flame. or a hundred other options, what if they soulcast all the mistborns metal vails so they're just filled with blood? now they are out of metals and very disturbed. soulcast their steel and iron anchors while theyre pushing/pulling. that would totally mess them up. the problem here, is that we haven't actually seen any lightweaver use their powers well. would shallans fake army have been more usefull than making every enemy soldier blind with blazing light in front of their eyes? or bursting their eardrums with fake thunderclaps? she absolutely had the stormlight and connection to the spiritual realm to do it, the problem is that she isn't thinking that way, and if all lightweavers are like that, then yes they will lose. but the lightweaver has far more potential than we have seen

you know, I just realized the lightweaver could probably make illusions of fake iron/steel lines. as long as copper doesn't kill illusions (although I suspect it will, or at minimum make them harder to maintain) They could confuse the mistborn to extreme amounts

[alder24]

44 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

ok so here's my thing with the lightweavers. they have the potential to make any apponent blind, by just putting an illusion of darkness over their face. idk abt you guys, but its hard to dodge a shardblade if you can't see.

Mistborn would likely be able to leech illusions.

11 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

they could spray coins in all directions but the lightweaver can just turn their sword into a shield until they get up close.

Mistborn will detect with bronze summoning a Shardblade, and Soulcasting.

Spoiler

Rasarr

Could a Seeker detect a Shardbearer? For example, could Vin detect Adolin's Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

That detects Kinetic Investiture, Investiture that's being used actively, so in the summoning process, you'd probably get a blip on that, but not just looking at someone and seeing it.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

Turning Shardblade into a shield would mean that coins will be stopped by it and Mistborn would know via steelsight where Lightweaver is. If Mistborn is trained enough, he can have Inquisitor level of steelsight, capable of detecting and seeing via traces levels of metals in environment, completely bypassing Lightwever's illusions.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

 

1 minute ago, PinkPlasma said:

they can run away but then the second they do that the lightweaver can just coat a huge area around them in darkness and take cover with their shield until the mistborn comes back

The same darkness would blind Lightweaver as well. They can't see through their illusions. Check OB chapter when Shallan created an illusion of rock outside of Kholinar city, she had to make eyeholes to be able to look outside of that illusion. So all of your ideas won't work, because Lightweaver is blinded even more than a Mistborn.

19 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

what if they soulcast all the mistborns metal vails so they're just filled with blood? now they are out of metals and very disturbed. soulcast their steel and iron anchors while theyre pushing/pulling. that would totally mess them up

Average Lightweaver of 3rd Ideal need to touch it to Soulcast it.

6 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

you know, I just realized the lightweaver could probably make illusions of fake iron/steel lines. as long as copper doesn't kill illusions (although I suspect it will, or at minimum make them harder to maintain) They could confuse the mistborn to extreme amounts

Possible, difficult to maintain, but they need to know and see how it looks like, that Mistborn can see via steelsight in the first place to make those illusions believable.

 

@PinkPlasma instead of triple posting, you can edit your post by clicking "edit" at the bottom of your post.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The same darkness would blind Lightweaver as well. They can't see through their illusions. Check OB chapter when Shallan created an illusion of rock outside of Kholinar city, she had to make eyeholes to be able to look outside of that illusion. So all of your ideas won't work, because Lightweaver is blinded even more than a Mistborn.

They can see into the CR and navigate by seeing souls.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Mistborn would likely be able to leech illusions.

Yeah they could, Kaladin was able to consume the Stormlight from an illusion SHallan placed on him.

[PinkPlasma she/her]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Mistborn would likely be able to leech illusions.

Mistborn will detect with bronze summoning a Shardblade, and Soulcasting.

  Reveal hidden contents

Rasarr

Could a Seeker detect a Shardbearer? For example, could Vin detect Adolin's Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

That detects Kinetic Investiture, Investiture that's being used actively, so in the summoning process, you'd probably get a blip on that, but not just looking at someone and seeing it.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

Turning Shardblade into a shield would mean that coins will be stopped by it and Mistborn would know via steelsight where Lightweaver is. If Mistborn is trained enough, he can have Inquisitor level of steelsight, capable of detecting and seeing via traces levels of metals in environment, completely bypassing Lightwever's illusions.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

 

The same darkness would blind Lightweaver as well. They can't see through their illusions. Check OB chapter when Shallan created an illusion of rock outside of Kholinar city, she had to make eyeholes to be able to look outside of that illusion. So all of your ideas won't work, because Lightweaver is blinded even more than a Mistborn.

Average Lightweaver of 3rd Ideal need to touch it to Soulcast it.

Possible, difficult to maintain, but they need to know and see how it looks like, that Mistborn can see via steelsight in the first place to make those illusions believable.

 

@PinkPlasma instead of triple posting, you can edit your post by clicking "edit" at the bottom of your post.

oh i forgot abt editing sry

I did genuinly forget about both leeching, and the fact that the lightweaver won't be able to see either, tho im not sure if they need to see if they're just hiding. but Im going to have to side with the lightweaver still. they have healing near to gold compounding, and a weapon that can take any shape and can kill the mistborn in one hit. the mistborns greatest advantage is definitely the leeching, but close combat with someone who has a shardblade is super dangerous. I don't think they can sense the illusions or stormlight with Seeking, because its difficult for them to even sense furochemy, which is super related to allomancy. something as seperate as a surge is going to be difficult. its a closer battle than I first thought, but the illusions coupled with how dangerous its going to be for the mistborn to get in close to use leeching is what does it for me. the mistborn will have to manage to grab hold of someone who also has increadibly quick reflexes and speed, pretty much equal to their pewter, except they have a weapon that can be 6 feet long and kill them in one hit. not only this, but if the leeching takes time, then the lightweaver definitely wins. holding onto someone who can soulcast for a prolonged amount of time would be exeptionally stupid, even if they just soulcast your clothes or your cloak into fire. and the more time the lightweaver has to cunfuse and disorient the mistborn, the more likely they are too win. it could go either way, and it really depends on the fighters, but with equal skill in each, I think the Lightweaver wins.