Quick Fix 64: Spies in Starsight

[Kasimir]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/profile/25585-ookla-the-forgotten/

Do I want to test this.

This would effectively be a CC.

At the same time, I think it's important to get the ML to finish a training epoch in order to save long term aggravation.

Edited to add: Inb4 he's doing it to salt the E!Xino pattern with V!Xino inactivity.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kasimir

[xinoehp512]

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/profile/25585-ookla-the-forgotten/

Do I want to test this.

This would effectively be a CC.

At the same time, I think it's important to get the ML to finish a training epoch in order to save long term aggravation.

Edited to add: Inb4 he's doing it to salt the E!Xino pattern with V!Xino inactivity.

Nah, I just had a flight all day.

Haven't had time to reread the thread but there's three hours to rollover so *shrug*

I'll vote Kas for now.

 

[Fifth Scholar]

So I know Kas is somewhat choosing to seal his own fate atm and that will probably change and I am not terribly secure in his village-ness myself but why exactly do we have three votes on him?

Y’all really gonna make me do real analysis huh >>

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

2 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Dannex’s wagon doesn’t have a ton of traction, but it’s interesting that none of the counterwagons have any traction at all.

Kas (4): Dannnnnex, Nerdy, Kas, Xino
Dannnnnex (2): JNV, Bookwyrm
Mat(1): Fifth
Wiz(1): Aman
Stick (1): Mat

Clearly not true since there's only two votes left on Dannex while Kas has four now with Xino's vote. The self-vote will presumably go away, so effectively three votes. Should be an hour and a half left in cycle instead of three. You're not outright concerned for Kas's potential death at least.

[Mat]

Would rather not CC, even with the data from last game. To me there’s a difference anyway, making this argument C3 or 4 would be better.

Course he just ninja’d me  @Ookla the Forgotten, why Kas? Even if you haven’t reread you had to have some rational for voting there. Almost makes me want to vote Dannex to test that interaction.

[Amanuensis]

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

Two hours left in the cycle! Make sure to get your votes and actions in!

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Forgotten said:

Nah, I just had a flight all day.

Haven't had time to reread the thread but there's three hours to rollover so *shrug*

I'll vote Kas for now.

Did you miss the GM's callout?

Going to switch to Danex if necessary.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Myopic said:

Honestly I don't quite remember. I think it was reading about the A:tr conversation and the claims of Winzik and I was confused. So I commented on the FUD going around mostly the confusion part of it. I think that was why.

Not sure if this satisfies me or not. Basically, my theory is e!Wizard has more reason than v!Wizard to "get confused" by the FUD because they're actively engaged in finding the Inner Circle. I personally don't plan on trying to guess them since our goal is to kill the spies, but I suppose it's possible other villagers would feel differently?

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter? 

ED1T:

10 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Kas (4): Dannnnnex, Nerdy, Kas, Xino
Dannnnnex (2): JNV, Bookwyrm
Mat(1): Fifth
Wiz(1): Aman
Stick (1): Mat

Clearly not true since there's only two votes left on Dannex while Kas has four now with Xino's vote. The self-vote will presumably go away, so effectively three votes. Should be an hour and a half left in cycle instead of three. You're not outright concerned for Kas's potential death at least.

The Dannnnnnnnex voters still appear more pure to me. Nerdy and Xino are big flashing question marks while JNV and Bookwyrm feel chill.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Haelbarde]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Unknown said:

My first game was fourteen QFs ago, so new according to your ancient origins.

Turns out you've played 8 more games than I have.  

---

I was about to post a vote tally based on an earlier Stick one, but then it doesn't line up with Devotary's at all, so gonna go back and do my own properly to confirm. 

My reads/vibes of players so far are as follows: 

Player Vibes
Village
- Strong: Hael
- Moderate:
- Slight: Stick, JNV
Neutral
- Goodish: Fifth, Aman
- Meh: Silvereye (Wind), Mat (Tall), Bookwyrm (Perpetual), Xino (Forgotten)
- Badish: Devo, Nerdy, Kas, Wiz (Myopic), TUN (Unknown), Dannex (Gastro)
Elim
- Slight: 
- Moderate:
- Strong:
Absent
- Infinite, Exotic

Although I'm disinclined to vote Devo or Kas this turn. And I N1'd TUN last game, so feel like they deserve a pass. Think I'm going to put my vote on Dannex. 

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

So we have e!Dannex, e!Fifth trying to push him, or they're both village. And now three people in a row, four counting Fifth willing to vote Dannex/save Kas. Can't all be evil certainly. Looking okay for v!Dannex though. Won't be able to see what happens so I'll vote for Fifth, hits either teamed with Kas or ensuring Dannex's death.

[Haelbarde]

Detailed Tally

Devo (0): Kas{1}
Aman (0): Hael{1}
Kas (4): Danex [Gastro]{1}, Nerdy [Nerdy]{1}, Kas{3}, Xino [Forgotten]{1}
Hael (0): TUN [Unknown]{1}
Danex [Gastro] (4): Kas{2}, Stick{1}, Aman{1}, JNV{1}, Bookwrym [Perpetual]{1}, Silvereye [Wind]{1}, Hael{2}
Mat [Tall] (1): TUN [Unknown]{2}, Fifth{1}, Aman{2}
Wizard [Myopic] (1): Aman{3}
Stick (1): Matt [Tall]{1}
Fifth (1): Devotary{1}

Vote Tally
Kas (4): Danex [Gastro]{1}, Nerdy [Nerdy]{1}, Kas{3}, Xino [Forgotten]{1}
Danex [Gastro] (4): JNV{1}, Bookwrym [Perpetual]{1}, Silvereye [Wind]{1}, Hael{2}
Matt [Tall] (1): Fifth{1}
Wizard [Myopic] (1): Aman{3}
Stick (1): Matt [Tall]{1}
Fifth (1): Devotary{1}

[Kasimir]

26 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

So I know Kas is somewhat choosing to seal his own fate atm and that will probably change

24 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

The self-vote will presumably go away, so effectively three votes.

 No, it's not going to. You can believe what you want. We'll see who is right by rollover.

I am weakly willing to consider moving it if you make a sufficiently convincing argument for any other candidate, but on the whole, I'd rather not. For once in an SE game, I am happy to accept my vote is being made for selfish reasons, when I should be putting my team above this.

I've alluded to this as much in the LG91 dead doc, but no one reads dead docs apparently apart from ctrl+fing to find their own names.

Edited to add:

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Would rather not CC, even with the data from last game. To me there’s a difference anyway, making this argument C3 or 4 would be better.

It's D1. You are legit voting on a V read of mine for gut reasons. I fail to see where this is a substantively worse train. If you're CCing on C3/C4, something has gone very wrong.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kasimir

[Fifth Scholar]

7 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

So we have e!Dannex, e!Fifth trying to push him, or they're both village. And now three people in a row, four counting Fifth willing to vote Dannex/save Kas. Can't all be evil certainly. Looking okay for v!Dannex though. Won't be able to see what happens so I'll vote for Fifth, hits either teamed with Kas or ensuring Dannex's death.

Huh? I am literally still on Mat with zero intention of moving to Dannex in particular. I just don’t see why people want Kas dead now.

[Kasimir]

2 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Huh? I am literally still on Mat with zero intention of moving to Dannex in particular. I just don’t see why people want Kas dead now.

I do

It's called paranoia. It's called double fricking standards

I've been dealing with it to the point of writing a whole rant about it in the LG91 dead doc but we don't give a crap about dead docs, we only read for our own names, apparently

Being sus of a player is one thing. Being paranoid to the extent that you are applying standards to one player you are markedly not to literally any other player is going to make that other player sick to the back teeth of this crap eventually.

If you want a less cynical answer, it's D1. This is the literal definition of D1 voting.

But I don't see a particular reason to feel charitable right now and I would like nothing better than to flip. So we're going to go with: paranoia, and double standards.

[Amanuensis]

RIP Dannnnnnnnnnnex.

 

[Kasimir]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

RIP Dannnnnnnnnnnex.

Could I convince you to vote for me?

Sort of, but also not. I acknowledge if you are V this isn't ideal, and that's where I'm hesitating to do this. But I am also firmly of the belief that SE players only learn when they ML, not when they get it right.

[Amanuensis]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Could I convince you to vote for me?

Sort of, but also not. I acknowledge if you are V this isn't ideal, and that's where I'm hesitating to do this. But I am also firmly of the belief that SE players only learn when they ML, not when they get it right.

If you die you die, but I personally don't want my hands stained with Meerkat blood

Realistically, it might drive a lesson home now, but I'd rather keep you around for the long term.

[Haelbarde]

22 hours ago, ookla the gastrointestinal said:

Kas

 

8 hours ago, Ookla the Nerdy said:

Kas

When in doubt, go for someone who other people seem to want to go up against.

 

7 hours ago, Kasimir said:

It's always the beginning of a proto streak. 

See, here's what I don't understand. If you think I'm suspicious, then vote on me. I'll help you out: Kasimir.

You seem to be saying your E!Mat issues, I quote, come from your unease about me. There are sharper comments I could make about how for all you claim Village me should be apparent by now, paranoia or you being Evil is very good at making players not see the obvious. This is easily the third or fourth game I've been paranoided on for being too noisy, too visible, too not apparently Village, whatever.

My point is, if you are Village then I don't understand your vote. Your entailment is then from me to Mat, specifically because you don't like me pointing out that the action is weird or distracting but voting on that basis os pretty much weird too. If Mat flips V, it doesn't help you answer whether a world in which E!me defended Mat. So are you fishing about for another convenient train? 

I mean lbr I genuinely don't care, the dead doc has Araris and I can probably talk World Cup with Szeth so if you think I am Evil, why don't you just take the shot? That's the correct order of entailment. 

 

47 minutes ago, Ookla the Forgotten said:

Nah, I just had a flight all day.

Haven't had time to reread the thread but there's three hours to rollover so *shrug*

I'll vote Kas for now.

 

@Kasimir These are the votes on you. Dannex was as throw away poke vote copying your throwaway poke vote on Devo in the opening minutes of cycle, Nerdy seemed to vote for you for having people engage you in discussion. Your vote is based on a disagreement with Fifth over Mat, and Xino is an unexplained vote with no context. These players don't seem to be paranoid, just throwing votes down on active players, without giving any attention to why they're voting. I think I'd opt to vote Nerdy based on that post if not for being their second game and this being cycle 1. 

[Mat]

Kas, I don’t see why you take any of the votes on you seriously. Dannex was retaliation, and idk what Nerdy or xino were thinking. It’s not paranoia off recent games because Nerdy and Dannex haven’t played past games and xino was just elim.

Everyone who was paranoiding you early on last game isn’t right now. So please vote someone you actually suspect? This is why I don’t like self votes, you’re fine with getting yourself killed and pushing that people want that and it’s better or whatever but that’s not the case. You’re not proving anything, you’re just removing your own vote from actually being helpful.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. But this is not the way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Ninja’d by Hael, who says much of the same.

Edit: Also can someone explain to me why everyone is just… fine with Bookwyrm’s vote???

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Tall

[Amanuensis]

@ookla the gastrointestinal if you're village, you have 20 minutes to whip up a countertrain that's not Kas.

ED1T:

Quote

Edit: Also can someone explain to me why everyone is just… fine with Bookwyrm’s vote???

Tbh I thought it was fine in a vacuum. I.E. the vote only works for an elim in certain scenarios imo. Could just be a D1 villager vote.

@Ookla the Tall

Edited December 19, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Haelbarde]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Also can someone explain to me why everyone is just… fine with Bookwyrm’s vote???

I wouldn't say I'm fine with it so much as not having the energy to interact with it, given I feel there's little chance of response to it at this stage of the cycle.

EDIT: The vote in question:

9 hours ago, Ookla the Perpetual said:

Hello, I'm here now. This game is moving fast and I'm only just figuring things out.

Re-reading the posts so far, something is off about Dannex...Part of this is me trusting more experienced players who are also reading him as elim, and also because he seems to be doing more to deflect possible suspicion than what I've seen him do in the past.

Time for my trademarked "This vote could be subject to change in the future."

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Haelbarde

[Mat]

32 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

It's D1. You are legit voting on a V read of mine for gut reasons. I fail to see where this is a substantively worse train. If you're CCing on C3/C4, something has gone very wrong.

And your v!read makes my own read invalid? I know the answer is ‘no’ and that’s not what you meant but sticking that sentence in this response doesn’t make sense to me.

I say C3/4 because your entire xino data case was based on lower activity being a tell. It’s too early right now to tell if xino is showing signs of that but by mid game we might reasonably be able to say which category he falls into. At that point, it wouldn’t be a CC. It’d be a case. Right now it’d just be a CC.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Tall

[Kasimir]

12 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:

@Kasimir These are the votes on you. Dannex was as throw away poke vote copying your throwaway poke vote on Devo in the opening minutes of cycle, Nerdy seemed to vote for you for having people engage you in discussion. Your vote is based on a disagreement with Fifth over Mat, and Xino is an unexplained vote with no context. These players don't seem to be paranoid, just throwing votes down on active players, without giving any attention to why they're voting. I think I'd opt to vote Nerdy based on that post if not for being their second game and this being cycle 1. 

Nerdy is voting me because he's sheeping Fifth, and Fifth has noted his vote on me is based on raw paranoia. I note he does not actually have raw paranoia of any other player. In other words, he is literally holding on to E!me in the face of everything I am doing, which is no different from what you are doing, or what he himself is doing, because he's worried I might be Evil.

Might.

Paranoia.

You yourself V!read Fifth. I fail to see where that goes beyond an attitude clear and would point out that the fact you believe that is good for Fifth and bad for me seems to only be explainable by double standards. If you believe my attempts to make sense of Dannex and to voice my various thoughts of players is Evil, you can explain why.

I'll accept it if you think my vote on Danex is sus. I'll accept it if you think my talk of Merlin is sus. Hell, I'll accept if you think my aggressive opening is sus.

What I think is outright disingenuous is if you have no disqualifiers and still want to apply double standards to different players.

I'm perfectly happy with you voting to lynch me, for the record. I do not actually care, and my point stands.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Sorry if that sounds harsh. But this is not the way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Again - I'll be honest, I don't care. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I can keep on paranoiding on you if you like, for the next few months, and see how you like it. You could have talked me into caring in LG91, but right now I'm at the place where I'd much rather keep flipping Village and keep getting MLed so people learn

You can say what you want and echo Hael. My rant in the dead doc stands. It's the double fricking standards that is pissing me off so very much. If you believe I should never play SE again, honestly at this juncture, I'm happy to agree with you, because I don't care. If you can't give me the exact same grace or suspicion you can another player, then I don't see why I should care to continue with this community.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

And your v!read makes my own read invalid? I know the answer is ‘no’ and that’s not what you meant but sticking that sentence in this response doesn’t make sense to me.

No, but you're not interested in engaging on Stick, and that's fair to me. But the fact you are not interested in engaging on Stick does imply there is a very low level of thought being put into this cycle, and that's exactly what is on my mind when I point out that I don't see what is wrong with CCing C1 - this is exactly the same threshold across the cycle, more or less.

Edited to add:

5 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Also can someone explain to me why everyone is just… fine with Bookwyrm’s vote???

 

Because Bookwyrm. I feel you can't ID Bookwyrm beyond a meta comparison because he's so...Bookwyrm. We literally wasted two cycles arguing over him in LG91. Sure, if I was in the mood, I could do a Bookwyrm comparison, but it's hard to have much to go off over a single post. He makes sus votes. He makes opportunistic votes. That's literally him.

I guess I could see maybe E!Bookwyrm but that would be from lack of further posts rather than a positive read IMO.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis]

At this point I think we can agree that Kas and Mat are V/V?

[Kasimir]

9 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Because Bookwyrm. I feel you can't ID Bookwyrm beyond a meta comparison because he's so...Bookwyrm. We literally wasted two cycles arguing over him in LG91. Sure, if I was in the mood, I could do a Bookwyrm comparison, but it's hard to have much to go off over a single post. He makes sus votes. He makes opportunistic votes. That's literally him.

Like, how did we ID E!Bookwyrm in your QF @Ookla the Tall - fundamentally opportunistic voting patterns and sort of "eh why not." Then in LG91 it was clear he was more engaged with the game, making that really weird vote and retraction on you, got sussed to high hell and back for it. Sure we can sus him for it here, it's an opportunistic vote. But where do we go after that?

The main thing I found for V!Bookwyrm was specificity, willingness to litigate.

It's not really here but that's the one post problem. I'd never object to applying pressure because why not right. But like it or not, what am I supposed to think about a dataset with exactly one point in it?

Edited to add: @Ookla the Tall - I'm curious if Bookwyrm's history as a LHF train influences you here. There's context in LG91 that we don't have here, including the fact that the train dynamics are functionally different, but calling out that Bookwyrm has been ignored is odd to me.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis]

We're a bit late for pressure. 15 minutes left. Wizard CFD anyone? Or at least consolidate on Dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex so D1 isn't a total waste.

[Kasimir]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

We're a bit late for pressure. 15 minutes left. Wizard CFD anyone? Or at least consolidate on Dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex so D1 isn't a total waste.

Yeah I know but I believe in making your thoughts/opinions known no matter what even if the Village will ignore it after you die, or worse, follow it and ML Heron.