Frustration's Firepower Index: Roshar[minor SA 5 spoilers]

[Frustration he/him]

Welcome to the second entry of Frustration's Firepower Index, a collection of threads dedicated to analyzing the combat capabilities of every Cosmere world. This Thread will be specifically focusing on the planet Roshar as it appears in the released SA 5 sample chapters. As The Stormlight Archive is half of the Cosmere by word count I expect this one to be the largest of any of them, thus spoiler boxes are used to cut down on length.

Shards: Cultivation and Odium are both incredibly active. With Odium having a new vessel. Honor is also on Roshar, however it has been splintered, thus keeping it from taking an active role. 4.5/4.5

Dawnshards: Change is located on Roshar, though it is currently in the hands of someone who does not have a source of active investiture. This does however make Roshar the only planet with a confirmed Dawnshard. 1/1

 

Defenses and Offenses

Spoiler

Defenses: Roshar is currently only accessible from the Cognitive realm, and while it has over twenty-two perpendicularities, only two can be used by non-radiants. Those being Cultivation's perpendicularity, which is guarded by horneaters, and is in the middle of a large bead ocean, and Honor's perpendicularity, which appears randomly and infrequently. Additionally the CR is guarded naturally by several types of spren, including the Nahel spren which have several settlements in the Cognitive realm. And Angerspren which are noticeably dangerous even to other spren(OB 887). Angerspren would be naturally drawn by large groups of people, making large scale invasion through the CR almost impossible.

Additionally there are several mountain ranges, and difficult terrain that would make moving large forces not used to the terrain difficult. Additionally two hurricane level storms sweep the world every couple of days, causing further havoc on any unprepared invaders.

It should be noted that Roshar has higher oxygen and lower gravity than most planets, meaning invading forces would be able to exert themselves in ways they normally couldn't. However worldhoppers are warned to beware fire as it is more dangerous here than on other worlds.

5/5.5

 

Offenses: While there are only a few ways non-natives can get to Roshar, getting natives out is much easier, with several oathgates making for quick transportation to locations near the borders of the Roshar's cognitive realm. However at this time Investiture from Roshar cannot be easily removed from the planet, and with most worlds having higher gravity and lower oxygen they would find physical activity hard on other worlds, likely even if they adjusted.

-2/1

 

Natural advantages: Rosharans are taller than non-rosharans by a large margin, this would make facing them intimidating, while also allowing them greater physical strength. Some among the Horneaters and Singers can get to seven Rosharan feet, so they likely are close to 7'8-8'

Spoiler

Questioner

It's referenced that on Roshar, a foot is longer than is cosmere standard. I can't find anywhere how long it actually is.

Brandon Sanderson

That's gonna come down to questions for Isaac and Karen. Not that you should go ask them right now. Mainly, what's going on is, we have to have height charts and things like that. Let me talk about the reason for this. I want to be able to say something in world like, "Kaladin's about 6'4." So that people can picture him compared to the people around him. He's probably closer to 7 foot compared to people from Scadrial. But if I say he's 7 foot, you're going to imagine him of the wrong proportions and size compared to the people around him. So I went ahead and said, we will use feet, but scale them different in order-- this is kind of just me fudging for your perception. When you see actual people from Roshar next to people from Scadrial, particularly tall Alethi, they're gonna look like giants.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Additionally Roshar has the second highest population of major shardworlds, and is close to first

Spoiler

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

2/2

 

Armed Forces: There are multiple groups on Roshar, but the ones that I believe deserve attention are: The Coalition, The Odium's forces, The Sleepless, The Shin, and The Listeners. Two of which(The Coalition and Odium's forces) are in active combat with each other, with the Sleepless tentitively allies with the Coalition, and the Listeners and Shin trying to remain neutral.

Spoiler

• The Coalition has an army in the hundreds of thousands, with perhaps a hundred radiants--with hundreds of squires--of a select number of orders including two bondsmiths, including around thirty shardblades and several suits of plate. They control thirteen oathgates(Ten Urithiru, Narak, Azimir, Thaylen city).  They also posses the most advanced fabrial technology in the world, with FTL communication via spanreeds, Transportation via oathgates, fabrial pumps, alerters, painrails, half-shards, grandbows, the fourth bridge, dozens of soulcasters and more. They have two raysium knifes, as well as some white sand, and Nightblood. Additionally they are one of two groups to have access to anti-investiture, which should be noted can be more powerful than anti-matter
  Spoiler

  R'Shara

  Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

  Brandon Sanderson

  The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

  Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

  Additonally it should be noted that Within Urithiru their Radiants have almost unlimited Stormlight and their surges are more powerful, effectively giving them an unassailable fortress.

• Odium's Forces have armies hundreds of thousands, including thousands of fused of various brands, with different levels of sanity. Tens of Skybreakers and an active herald. Additionally there are dozens to possibly hundreds of thunderclasts, along with nine unmade though two of those have been imprisoned. They have a cursory understanding of fabrials, They have five oathgates, around thiry shardblades and a few sets of plate. They have access to Raysium(though not much), and also Anti-light.
• The Sleepless, are easily the smallest group, but arguably the most important. They have hordings that can drain investiture, large hoardlings that can swallow people whole, a larkin on it's way to becoming a Lancer, a single Oathgate and a Dawnshard.
• The Shin are mysterious, but they have wielded Honorblades for thousands of years, and may still have some. They control a single oathgate.
• The Listeners have dozens of radiants and fused, along with a chasmfiend, though they have no shards or oathgates.

4/12

 

Economics&Technology: Roshar is experiencing nothing short of a fabrial revolution, with the advent of powered flight, alerters, half-shards, redirection of forces, pumps, stabilizers, and more all being invented within a few years. Additionally breeding programs are making gemstones cheaper and larger as well. They generally use medieval weapons, and they have caravan routes, but they lack widespread infrastructure, and ways to quickly transport goods and people to anywhere that isn't connected via oathgate.

3/7.5

 

Logistics:

On world: Roshar has 20 oathagtes mostly in population, political, economic, military and agricultural centers, while also allowing widespread access to the CR. Additionally they have developed caravan routes, and sea shipping lanes, and a single aircraft that can go up to 5 Rmph. Soulcasters can create any desired resource, while also eliminating supply lines. And on the Cognitive side they have well developed shipping lanes, large fleets, and several way stops and caravan routes.

9.5/10

 

Off World: When it comes to sheer volume of materials that can be shipped off world at once Roshar is by far the best, with the number of oathgates, and the size of them, they can easily transport not only goods, but also vehicles to assist in carrying them. Additionally a soulcaster stationed near the border can create any material, only requiring a source of stormlight, which is much easier to carry.

3/3

 

Inteligence: Roshar has several ways to create illusions, between Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, Smokeforms, and the Ones of Masks. They also have spren who can become invisible to everyone except those with investiture detection. They also have the ability to create replicas of important documents via soulcasting, which doesn't require them to even be in the same room as the document being coppied. They can also create poison, or weapons if need be, and Lightweavers can instantly memorize anything they look at. The Sleepless can imitate small insects and listen to conversations, while relaying what they heard. Rosharans are also distinct from other Cosmere humans making it difficult for them to imitate off worlders without powers.

10.5/10.5 With the caveat that if this is elsewhere in the cosmere the lack of invested abilities drops this down to .5/10.5

 

Counterinteligence: Lightweavers, Elsecallers, and Willshapers can look into the Cognitive realm and see the souls of anyone nearby. Rosharans also have noticeably distinct features, making them hard to imitate without powers, along with Singers being a separate species, that can hear rhythms, which will give away even Kandra imposters. They also have alerter fabrials that can detect people approaching, and can be set to ignore certain individuals. Additonally they have spren who are always awake, and can be watching, and Secretspren can detect uses of investiture.

9/9, caveat that almost none of this works off world, leaving them with 2/9.

 

Allies: Roshar has no allies 0/1

 

Notable uses of investiture: Secretspren can detect kinetic investiture, and there are fabrials that can suppress invested abilities, though those are rare, and only seem to work on various forms of surgebinding. They also have Shardblades that can sever the soul, and plate that greatly increases strength and durability. Additonally they have several lifeforms that can consume investiture.

+4.5

 

Recommended strategies: Roshar excels in numbers and power, the most ideal strategy would be to either gather your army and crush your opponent in a single attack, or otherwise hunker down and allow them to break against you. I think it's fair to say that most invading forces would break themselves to pieces before they cause even minor inconvenience to Roshar.

However getting their investiture off world is not currently possible for Rosharans, which really holds them back as their investiture is incredibly powerful. If Roshar is to improve they will have to find a way to move investiture off world, unite at least a few of it's factions, and possibly find out how to recruit more Chasmfiends or Larkin.

 

Overall ranking:

• On Roshar: 54/67
• Off Roshar: 32/67

 

As before did I miss anything? What do you think of the rankings? And what should I do next?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Frustration

[offer]

They also probably have the best military strategists in the cosmere, as the Alethi practiced it a lot... while other planets (I think specifically on Scadrial) have no experience in large scale wars.

They also control probably the best source of investiture in the cosmere. While they can`t use surges off-world, if they will get other allies they could give them a very valuable resource.

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, offer said:

They also probably have the best military strategists in the cosmere, as the Alethi practiced it a lot... while other planets (I think specifically on Scadrial) have no experience in large scale wars.

They also control probably the best source of investiture in the cosmere. While they can`t use surges off-world, if they will get other allies they could give them a very valuable resource.

They can't take stormlight off world either. Yet.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1.12.2022 at 11:17 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Recommended strategies: Roshar excels in numbers and power, the most ideal strategy would be to either gather your army and crush your opponent in a single attack,

Find a native ally.

On 1.12.2022 at 11:17 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

or otherwise hunker down and allow them to break against you. I think it's fair to say that Roshar is the most defensively potent planet so far analyzed, perhaps the most potent outright, most invading forces would break themselves to pieces before they cause even minor inconvenience to Roshar.

1. Strike at the oathgates
2. Isolate the perpendiculatities
3. Go for the Spren. Roshar has a lot of physical fighters and Investiture, but the Spren are not all that trained in war

On 1.12.2022 at 11:17 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

However getting their investiture off world is not currently possible for Rosharans, which really holds them back as their investiture is incredibly powerful. If Roshar is to improve they will have to find a way to move investiture off world, unite at least a few of it's factions, and possibly find out how to recruit more Chasmfiends or Larkin.

Can Regals go off world?

20 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They can't take stormlight off world either. Yet.

If they can get Regals off planet, they can generate Voidlight in the field.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Can Regals go off world?

I think if Odium would be released, Regals could leave (and so could Fused, maybe even enlightened Radiants?).
He did plan on using surgebinder army to conquer and attack other planets, so there should be a way.

[StanLemon]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:19 AM, offer said:

They also probably have the best military strategists in the cosmere, as the Alethi practiced it a lot... while other planets (I think specifically on Scadrial) have no experience in large scale wars.

This is an advantage for sure against a number of other worlds, but it might be a detriment against more modern warfare strategies Taldain and Scadrial could apply. One of the reasons the first World War was so bloody is outdated military strategy going up against modern weaponry

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Go for the Spren. Roshar has a lot of physical fighters and Investiture, but the Spren are not all that trained in war

The spren have wars between themselves, like when the Honorspren tried to take over Shadesmar. Additionally war would draw angerspren, which are considered enough of a threat that even Nahel spren go armed in case one shows up.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Can Regals go off world?

I don't think we have confirmation.

[Ati16 he/him]

On 12/2/2022 at 0:17 AM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

As before did I miss anything? I am still working on a ranking system to place worlds on if any of you have any ideas. Also which worlds should I do next?

You should do Nalthis next, though that would be difficult, since we don't know how technologically advanced are they during SA. We can assume that not much has changed because at the start of SA maybe only a decade or two has passed? I don't know if there is a WoB for the length of time between Warbreaker and tWoK.

[Frustration he/him]

21 minutes ago, Ati16 said:

You should do Nalthis next, though that would be difficult, since we don't know how technologically advanced are they during SA. We can assume that not much has changed because at the start of SA maybe only a decade or two has passed? I don't know if there is a WoB for the length of time between Warbreaker and tWoK.

Already done.

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

The population numbers are from a 2015 WoB, thus predting even Oathbringer.

Desolations are catastrophes, demographically speaking. How much of Roshar's population has died so far?

[Frustration he/him]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The population numbers are from a 2015 WoB, thus predting even Oathbringer.

Desolations are catastrophes, demographically speaking. How much of Roshar's population has died so far?

Unknown, though those would mostly be from small rural towns and farmsteads. Most of the population centers were minimally affected by the Everstorm, and there haven't been any wholesale slaughters that we know of.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

Unknown, though those would mostly be from small rural towns and farmsteads. Most of the population centers were minimally affected by the Everstorm, and there haven't been any wholesale slaughters that we know of.

Maybe not wholesale slaughters, but it's still a worldwide war going on. RoW has many refugee families from Herdaz implying that there are decently high civilian casualties and then the soldier casualties that medieval warfare that Roshar uses often ends with. As it's been only a year of fighting, it won't be too devastating but I'm sure that by the time of SL6 they will still be feeling it to some extent

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

Unknown, though those would mostly be from small rural towns and farmsteads. Most of the population centers were minimally affected by the Everstorm, and there haven't been any wholesale slaughters that we know of.

It's not the Everstorm that kills people. In OB first Singers in Alethkar attacked and siezed food supplies. Kholinar was on the brink of total food shortage during siege. Refugees and food rationing in camps. It is fair to assume that Alethkar suffered through widespread famine at least during first year of True Desolation. Although no numbers are know for us so it's hard to include it as a factor in the index.

[Valigus]

One thing I do think is missing is that rosharan military capacity is in many cases well beyond that of other divided planets.

overall the planet seems to about early renaissance or late medieval era in terms of technology lacking notably guns and with the very notable point in their favor regarding fabriels which all them some industrial/modern era capabilities without a lot of the disadvantages like pollution that usually come with it.

this is based on their general tech and the fact that despite being largely feudal they have a relatively advanced economy and some sprawling urban centers.

it also seems clear that based on the casualties and numbers seen in rosharan warfare we are talking an industrialized military machine in most cases, these aren’t feudal armies they are often professional armies with a state war machine at their back.

for example- 

Azimir is a classical republic/empire which has similarly advanced logistical and economic capacity.

Notably the vorin peoples(it’s like always the vorins) are capable of feats and military industry and power projection similar in scale to classical/napoleonic states of similar sizes. Specifically the alethi sent o be able to field an army similar in size to napoleonic France and mustered an army of about 130k for the shattered plains, which was basically about as much of a peer to peer conflict as anything the us has fought in the Middle East. Plus barring the minor pitched battles the war probably has strategically more in common at least to my eyes with counter-insurgency than a full scale war. 
plus even after being cut off from large portions of their kingdom they still are able to supply a significant number of coalition forces and each high prince seems to be able to muster about 30k or more professional trained soldiers.

thats insane, the vorin states are decentralized feudal societies with the military capacity of an industrial napoleonic era state.

tldr: vorin people’s punch far far above their weight in military capacity based on their tech level, economic level, and decentralized social structure.
 

Now to the next point, the rating of armed forces seems to be to not count the huge quality advantage for roshar.

of all the planets in the cosmere roshar has by far the oldest military history and the largest scale of military development, as well as the best troops bar none. 
 

as of Stormlight 5 the average rosharan human soldier faces a foe that is 1. Likely a demon in their religion, and 2. Is a 7-8 foot armored crab man, that can jump 30 feet. Warform singers are in my estimation objectively superior to koloss in nearly every way.
rosharan troops have clearly exceptional morale, are largely professional soldiers and with millennia of military theory behind them.

this is especially notable compared to Scadrial who has very few real professional experience troops(at least in the north) and roshar still seems to be on par in terms of macro scale with Nalthis and sel. 
but large numbers of rosharans troops come from militant warrior cultures, are professionals plus they are able to stand their ground against superior troops and win. But they can take their ground and defeat them due to their skill and that of their commanders.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Valigus

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Valigus said:

It must be pointed out I think for the offensive section that the lower gravity and oxygen on other worlds likely wouldn’t matter for the alethi at least(and Horneaters) they are so unreasonably massive that they would still be stronger and more dangerous than normal humans, off the top of my head astronauts in zero gs gained like 3 inches or something.

That is true, once you have adjusted to that gravitational change. But you are going to be weaker than you are used to.

2 minutes ago, Valigus said:

kaladin is like 7 foot plus so even accounting for the fact that kaladin is tall and those numbers alethi are still competing with or exceeding top National earth height average like in the Nordic countries and people with less exceptional average heights would likely be at a considerable disadvantage due to height and strength correlating pretty well. Plus .3 gs is not anywhere near as significant a difference as near 0 to 1 g so we are probably talking about an even lower difference.

the oxygen problem is fair but it likely would be null after a day or two of acclimatization, the equivalent of an average person going above 6k feet, wait a day or two and you’re good.

essentially rosharans, or at least vorin peoples, singers, and Horneaters are much much larger than just their gravity and oxygen difference would seem to account for, and they would likely still be much larger and stronger than average people on other planets even accounting for this.

(Like shallan would likely still be near 6 foot on earth and kaladin around 7, that’s huge, and while they would be weaker than a person from earth of the same height they would like be much stronger and larger than the average person(of similar biological characteristics))

All of these points are correct, but that still is a vulnerability. Lower oxygen and higher gravity means you spend several days much weaker, and less active than the planets natives, which makes it easier for them to force you off of the world.

Now it's not crippling, but it is something to keep in mind

[Valigus]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is true, once you have adjusted to that gravitational change. But you are going to be weaker than you are used to.

All of these points are correct, but that still is a vulnerability. Lower oxygen and higher gravity means you spend several days much weaker, and less active than the planets natives, which makes it easier for them to force you off of the world.

Now it's not crippling, but it is something to keep in mind

Yeah I also realized you addressed this right after I wrote it, but I m gonna replace that comment with some observations I’ve just had about rosharan military capability relative to tech and social ordering