Wits instant noodles he/him Posted January 19, 2023 Author Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: At 3rd ideal I think it comes down to the reason they're fighting and the environment. If the environment is metal poor Windrunner has better mobility. Whoever has something to protect has a big disadvantage, too. If the Mistborn can keep their distance the Windrunner doesn't have a ranged ability to match coins and if the Windrunner is wearing any non-Shardblade metal that will make it easy for the Mistborn to keep distance. But the Windrunner's Stormlight healing can absorb a lot of coin hits, whereas one good Shardblade hit will kill the Mistborn. If both can move freely it will be a long fight, with the Mistborn shooting coins and constantly evading and the Windrunner chasing and healing. It will likely come down to whether the Mistborn runs out of iron/steel or the Radiant runs out of Stormlight first- though the Mistborn has no room for error, and the Radiant does. If the Mistborn is pinned down protecting someone/something they probably die pretty quickly. So I'd say slight edge to the Radiant because of healing, but could completely go either way, and likely a long and very frustrating fight - especially if the Radiant has any metal on them. I'm not sure how many coins a 3rd ideal Radiant should be able to absorb. The crossbow bolt in OB is a fairly big deal for Shallan, whereas Kaladin heals knife wounds to the spine pretty quick in RoW, and they're both 3rd ideal at the time. Metals last a lot longer than stormlight does and the mistborn is not tied down or anything 1
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 19, 2023 Posted January 19, 2023 13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: At 3rd ideal I think it comes down to the reason they're fighting and the environment. If the environment is metal poor Windrunner has better mobility. Whoever has something to protect has a big disadvantage, too. If the Mistborn can keep their distance the Windrunner doesn't have a ranged ability to match coins and if the Windrunner is wearing any non-Shardblade metal that will make it easy for the Mistborn to keep distance. But the Windrunner's Stormlight healing can absorb a lot of coin hits, whereas one good Shardblade hit will kill the Mistborn. If both can move freely it will be a long fight, with the Mistborn shooting coins and constantly evading and the Windrunner chasing and healing. It will likely come down to whether the Mistborn runs out of iron/steel or the Radiant runs out of Stormlight first- though the Mistborn has no room for error, and the Radiant does. If the Mistborn is pinned down protecting someone/something they probably die pretty quickly. So I'd say slight edge to the Radiant because of healing, but could completely go either way, and likely a long and very frustrating fight - especially if the Radiant has any metal on them. I'm not sure how many coins a 3rd ideal Radiant should be able to absorb. The crossbow bolt in OB is a fairly big deal for Shallan, whereas Kaladin heals knife wounds to the spine pretty quick in RoW, and they're both 3rd ideal at the time.  12 hours ago, Wits instant noodles said: Metals last a lot longer than stormlight does and the mistborn is not tied down or anything  I imagine that the coins a mistborn has would be limited although the idea that only coins can be used as weapons is silly.  Any metal the windrunner wears will hurt it in the end as well.  Any metal on the shield it uses to reverse lash protecting it from coins will hurt it and once a coin has been lashed to the shield as a defense the windrunner has to choose to drop the shield or be a moving anchor point for the mistborn to play with.  Either the mistborn runs the windrunner out of stormlight via fleeing from the shield that has been peppered with metal using that same shield as an anchor or the mistborn tosses the windrunner around with that shield. Either way steel lasts longer than stormlight and if the windrunner wants to get close to the mistborn it will have to drop its protection from the ranged capabilities of the mistborn.  As far as healing goes I still have to think that the more damage that needs to be healed uses more investiture. Soft tissue damage should take less healing than regrowing bones and nerves and such. I know there will be some pushback on that but I would love to see how Shallan healed back getting duralumin headbutt from Vin vs just an arrow in the face... Given the differences in structural damaged needing to be reformed or grown back.  (Thoughts on whether the head would just grow back and the nubby bits fall off or if it would just try to reknit everything due to so much being attached still just in paste form?)  Coins would eventually cut through the windrunners healing capabilities as well. We saw Vin tear up a room of people with a single belt buckle. There is a massive fallacy if people seriously believe shooting coins from the mistborn will be limited to just the coin pouches initial capacity. Each coin can cut into and through the windrunner a number of times. Shotgunning them into and through and then yanking them back again is a sure fire way to burn some stormlight out of a windrunner.  Likely the mistborn won't start with the attempt at overkill. But also unlikely that the windrunner will hold onto the shield once the mistborn starts using the coin stuck on the shield as an anchor point to keep distance. Once the shield is dropped the windrunners defense is gone unless they want to fight on the ground. Then the mistborn has anchor points all over at which case their mobility shoots through the roof. Without a shield and attempting to be mobile in the air is the worst spot for the windrunner to be.   Can a windrunner use their living shard weapon as a shield for reverse lashings? Investiture resists investiture but even if they can as soon as it drops the coins are in free fall again and in play for the mistborn.  Close quarters everyone is right. 1 shot potential vs a few hits needed (though I still think one hit or touch from a mistborn with chromium and pewter will be enough to end the fight).  Spears are longer than mostborn weapons but also suffer from not being all blade. Once past the tip the radiant better change tactics fast.  And once in range it is literally 5 seconds worth of atium until the radiant is leeched of everything and dead. But atium makes the fight trivial anyways so it is excluded. Still leaves you with a magically enhanced man vs a magically perfected man. Mistborn is stronger and faster and better balanced.  Instead of arguing Kaladin vs Kelsier or Vin as the judge between stormlight vs pewter we should measure Kaladin with pewter vs Kaladin with stormlight. The pewter enhanced kaladin is going to outpace the stormlight enhanced kaladin in every single category short of just healing capabilities. One touch to the spine is all the shardblade needs. One touch with nicrosil or chromium is all the mistborn needs and that isn't tied down by shot placement.  Still the shardblade is deadly. I think it is closer to 50/50 than it is to 99/1 though.  Even a sacrificed limb allows the mistborn to keep going. Once the windrunner is out of stormlight via leeching there really isn't anything they can do.  A longer weapon won't help them in that range and they cant skip or resummon their blade while being touched by a leecher.  But if done right the mistborn hopefully doesn't ever have to be in shardblade range anyways. Every coin that is defended against adds to the mobility of the mistborn and every coin not defended against can be torn through the radiant many times burning through their healing quickly.  Â
Frustration Posted January 19, 2023 Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Either the mistborn runs the windrunner out of stormlight via fleeing from the shield that has been peppered with metal using that same shield as an anchor or the mistborn tosses the windrunner around with that shield. Either way steel lasts longer than stormlight and if the windrunner wants to get close to the mistborn it will have to drop its protection from the ranged capabilities of the mistborn. Stormlight can be returened to gemstones Rosharans weight more than Scadrians, so the Mistborn would only push themselves away Steel is actually one of the fastest burning metals Â
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 19, 2023 Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Stormlight can be returened to gemstones Rosharans weight more than Scadrians, so the Mistborn would only push themselves away Steel is actually one of the fastest burning metals  Stormlight being returned to gemstones is the same as pausing combat in which case the toggleable advantages of allomancy really end up winning. Yes. The Rosharan either acts as an anchor for the mistborn to flee from (like trying to force 2 repelling magnets against eachother there). The mistborn actually gains advantage in the cat and mouse game by the potentially faster moving windrunner because he can simply push against it over and over again. Then if the radiant gets smart and attacks from above the mistborn has the ground to anchor and the radiant goes tumbling away instead.  I don't think the radiant is going to run the mistborn out of steel in this case given how fast the stormlight gets used.   The radiant doesn't win the war of attrition here at all. Mistborn slow burning metals can alert them of the radiants presence all the time. Mistborn can see in the dark and copper will help it hide when it comes in for a back stab in the night. Maybe the spren sees it maybe it doesn't. Either way you pepper a sleeping radiant with coins from range because even at night you can see it... the spren can maybe be a lookout but running away and resetting a fight plays in the mistborns favor everytime.  Radiant really has to commit to the fight early and try to stop the mistborn from out maneuvering them (which again if you are defending coins with shields allows the mistborn to play repelling magnets with you all day). If the radiant doesn't use a shield they open themselves up to being drained of stormlight via a never ending onslaught of coins being pushed and pulled through their shardplateless bodies.... maybe they can close the distance now that they aren't a walking anchor for the mistborn... maybe one of the coins lodges in a bone and the mistborn gets flung back a bit.  The radiant has to be able to heal through more wounds than just a coin shot here or there and the mistborn is going to be ripping shotgun effects of coins forwards and backwards until all of them are either stuck and lodged inside the radiant or they are too far away to retrieve them. Then the radiant has to have enough stormlight to compete against a pewter fueled mistborn with.  If the idea is that the radiant is holding that much stormlight then the idea that the mistborn has enough steel for it isn't farfetched at all.  The WoBs actually support the idea that a radiant just stashing his light and walking away is the worst plan for the radiant... as the mistborn is trained in the art of sneaking around at night and assassinating people.  I still stand by and agree that in melee range the radiant has a better chance at walking away than the mistborn. But all WoBs on this are pitting assassins vs soldiers.  I just think that the mistborn has advantage at range and has the ability to stay at range so long as the radiant isn't face tanking all of the shots, in which case there should be nothing stopping the mistborn from shotgunning handfuls of coins forward and backwards through the radiant as they close the gap.  I really think the radiants best chance at closing the gap is to somehow glue all coins to the floor and be running the fight totally naked. Otherwise the mistborn can use the radiants efforts closing the gap as propulsion away from the radiant.  Can you set a reverse lashing on an item while simultaneously lashing it forward to send a magnetized boulder outwards and follow it vs the mistborn?  Still offers the mistborn a new anchor but 1 anchor to work around is better changes for the radiant.  Advantages in flying speed may be the radiants. Advantages of flying maneuverability are definately the radiants. Advantages in stay away from the person flying so long as they have metal on them are 100% the mistborns.  And again, if the radiant gets frustrated (which could be being soothed and rioted to be a downer) and decides to pack up and go home... the mistborn has all the advantage in the world. Like an owl and bloodhound put together who can hear any use of surges and can make the spren do something outside of their normal in a coppercloud whatever that means.  Spoiler Keeper Exile Would a Coppercloud at all affect how spren act? Brandon Sanderson Yes. FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019) Â
Frustration Posted January 19, 2023 Posted January 19, 2023 Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I don't think the radiant is going to run the mistborn out of steel in this case given how fast the stormlight gets used. Why would it be fast at all? Reverse lashings are incredibly stormlight efficient. 1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Yes. The Rosharan either acts as an anchor for the mistborn to flee from (like trying to force 2 repelling magnets against eachother there). The mistborn actually gains advantage in the cat and mouse game by the potentially faster moving windrunner because he can simply push against it over and over again. Then if the radiant gets smart and attacks from above the mistborn has the ground to anchor and the radiant goes tumbling away instead. The shield can be wooden. 2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: The radiant doesn't win the war of attrition here at all. Mistborn slow burning metals can alert them of the radiants presence all the time. Mistborn can see in the dark and copper will help it hide when it comes in for a back stab in the night. Maybe the spren sees it maybe it doesn't. Either way you pepper a sleeping radiant with coins from range because even at night you can see it... the spren can maybe be a lookout but running away and resetting a fight plays in the mistborns favor everytime. Why would you run away, there would never be a moment where you didn't have the advantage, even Brandon has said that the Windrunner would win. 3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: If the radiant doesn't use a shield they open themselves up to being drained of stormlight via a never ending onslaught of coins being pushed and pulled through their shardplateless bodies.... maybe they can close the distance now that they aren't a walking anchor for the mistborn... maybe one of the coins lodges in a bone and the mistborn gets flung back a bit. The instant it enters a radiants body it is beyond the ability of the Mistborn to push on them, and they wouldn't be able to pull on coins behind them. 4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: The radiant has to be able to heal through more wounds than just a coin shot here or there and the mistborn is going to be ripping shotgun effects of coins forwards and backwards until all of them are either stuck and lodged inside the radiant or they are too far away to retrieve them. Then the radiant has to have enough stormlight to compete against a pewter fueled mistborn with. How many coins do they have? You're making it sound like tens of thousands, but a standard pouch wouldn't contain more than a hundred. And with a shardblade it doesn't matter if they have pewter or not. 8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I just think that the mistborn has advantage at range and has the ability to stay at range so long as the radiant isn't face tanking all of the shots, in which case there should be nothing stopping the mistborn from shotgunning handfuls of coins forward and backwards through the radiant as they close the gap. A Windrunner can grab a rock, push thirty or so basic lashings on it, and send it shooting towards the Mistborn at 205.8m/s^2 9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Advantages in flying speed may be the radiants. Advantages of flying maneuverability are definately the radiants. Advantages in stay away from the person flying so long as they have metal on them are 100% the mistborns. The metal would be ripped off as it would be easier to move than the Mistborn would, so no that wouldn't work. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: (which could be being soothed and rioted to be a downer) Radiants are invested enough that wouldn't matter. 1
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 19, 2023 Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Why would you run away, there would never be a moment where you didn't have the advantage, even Brandon has said that the Windrunner would win. Brandon said that the windrunner would likely win in an open arena. Me touching that was because you specifically stated the radiant could put all of their stormlight back and hold it for later. Which the mistborn can do better via not drinking a vial or two and/or stopping the toggle button that is burning metals.  The entire strategy for a windrunner to win is to constantly have enough stormlight to manuever and heal. If they stop using stormlight while the mistborn is within striking range it is suicide.  My argument was that a shield (wooden or not) that is studded with coins as the windrunners defense is actually not going to work as it offers the mistborn the chance to push and pull on the shield now. 1 coin stuck to the shield makes it so that the heavier windrunner garuntees that the mistborn never lets them touch them.  The option to stop it is to summon your spren as a shield and reverse lash it (if this is possible given investiture resists investiture and spren weapons are more like aluminum weapons than wooden ones), but then what happens when your spren is no longer a shield? The coins are back into play.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: Radiants are invested enough that wouldn't matter. We have visited this a couple times. We will never agree on it. If WoB states explicitly that a radiant would want thier shardhelm to stop emotional allomancy then the argument for stormlight is pretty much pointless. Stormlight isn't going to stop them from having their emotions pushed of pulled. It may help them keep their head on better than Straff Venture but it is not copper. And a radiant not being unstable already is the outlier not the rule.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: The metal would be ripped off as it would be easier to move than the Mistborn would, so no that wouldn't work. I'm gonna use this one again further down but what Vin can do with a belt buckle should actually point to it being more dangerous off the radiant than on it.  "She shattered the window with a slap. The soldiers that waited beyond jumped backward, spinning. One wore a metal belt buckle. He died first. The other twenty barely knew how to react as the buckle buzzed through their ranks, twisting between Vin’s Pushes and Pulls." 1 hour ago, Frustration said: A Windrunner can grab a rock, push thirty or so basic lashings on it, and send it shooting towards the Mistborn at 205.8m/s^2 I don't think that is how it works. All things hit terminal velocity with gravitation or else we would have Kaladin breaking the sound barrier by simply stacking lashings. That is the difference between dropping a bullet off a building and shooting it out of the gun. Steel is shoving. No matter how many lashings gravitation is always only going to be dropping. For rocks big enough to be a threat at those speeds they would be pretty easy to spot by the mistborn and a small pulse of bendalloy would give plenty of time to assess the situation and adjust accordingly. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: How many coins do they have? You're making it sound like tens of thousands, but a standard pouch wouldn't contain more than a hundred. You dont need thousands to do what I describe. One coin passes through the enemy and then you drag it back the same way. A series of pushes and pulls turns 10 coins into 20, 30, 40, 50 and more holes.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: The instant it enters a radiants body it is beyond the ability of the Mistborn to push on them, and they wouldn't be able to pull on coins behind them. Vin destroyed 20 men with a single belt buckle proving that it can be pushed and pulled even when behind a person. Yes if some coins lodge into the windrunners body this would be a loss for them but then the windrunner has to deal with the fact that there are metal chunks moving around inside of them during every move they make and tearing them up more and more. More and more chances for there to be chunks of metal in the way of regrowing blood vessels or muscles or bones... if anything this is going to drain stormlight faster as having shrapnel in your body getting moved around by every movement you make is causing constant damage. If they heal like wolverine and push the metal out then the mistborn has it to use again.  "She shattered the window with a slap. The soldiers that waited beyond jumped backward, spinning. One wore a metal belt buckle. He died first. The other twenty barely knew how to react as the buckle buzzed through their ranks, twisting between Vin’s Pushes and Pulls." "Men screamed and fell, Vin ripping through their ranks with only the buckle as a weapon." 1 hour ago, Frustration said: The shield can be wooden. Yes it can. I am not talking about pushing a wooden shield. I am saying if you reverse lash the shield and drag coins to it then you will be making a metal anchor by creating a nice studded wooden shield for the mistborn to use.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: Why would it be fast at all? Reverse lashings are incredibly stormlight efficient. I'm saying steel pushing off of a moving anchor point a few times when it gets to close is going to last a good while. I guess if the windrunner doesn't get bored and change tactics with a single lashing forward towards then eventually it may run out of steel but it has other metals and the entire time can be using other options to attack the psych of the enemy and wear them down.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: And with a shardblade it doesn't matter if they have pewter or not. Shardblade isnt an insta win. We see normal people without pewter overcome shardblades in the books far more often than we see normal people overcoming a pewterarm in the books. Shardblades can be worked around... Kaladin did it and the idea he was using some stormlight is (as far as I know) not verified and even if he was it was so inefficient that it was more him than it was the stormlight.  I agree the shardblade to the spine is as much a 1 shot as leeching a radiant and pewter knocking their face into the back of their skull. But not every shot from a shardblade is going to land. And not every weapon used even from a spren is going to be the I win button. You still have a person who is 2-3x as strong, moving nearly twice as fast as a normal human and with nearly perfect balance and control over all of their movements.  I have never said that it was even in melee range... it is always tilted more towards the radiant but the idea that that means every fight that closes goes that way. A mistborn with pewter is still a dangerous threat that should be taken seriously. Â
Frustration Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: We have visited this a couple times. We will never agree on it. If WoB states explicitly that a radiant would want thier shardhelm to stop emotional allomancy then the argument for stormlight is pretty much pointless. Stormlight isn't going to stop them from having their emotions pushed of pulled. It may help them keep their head on better than Straff Venture but it is not copper. Anything short of Duralumin wouldn't work. 19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: And a radiant not being unstable already is the outlier not the rule.  That's not true at all, you need cracks in your spiritweb, but that can be as simple as being lonely or neglected. Having mental problems as bad as Kaladin or Shallan is the outlier, we just have selection bias. 30 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I'm gonna use this one again further down but what Vin can do with a belt buckle should actually point to it being more dangerous off the radiant than on it.  "She shattered the window with a slap. The soldiers that waited beyond jumped backward, spinning. One wore a metal belt buckle. He died first. The other twenty barely knew how to react as the buckle buzzed through their ranks, twisting between Vin’s Pushes and Pulls." That works only if you can push or pull towards them, you can't send metal anywhere that isn't directly to or away from you. 32 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I don't think that is how it works. All things hit terminal velocity with gravitation or else we would have Kaladin breaking the sound barrier by simply stacking lashings. That is the difference between dropping a bullet off a building and shooting it out of the gun. Steel is shoving. No matter how many lashings gravitation is always only going to be dropping. For rocks big enough to be a threat at those speeds they would be pretty easy to spot by the mistborn and a small pulse of bendalloy would give plenty of time to assess the situation and adjust accordingly. Terminal velocity is determined by the force of gravity. Multiple lashings means terminal velocity is a higher speed. 33 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: You dont need thousands to do what I describe. One coin passes through the enemy and then you drag it back the same way. A series of pushes and pulls turns 10 coins into 20, 30, 40, 50 and more holes. Yes you would, a few hundred would run out too quickly, and trying to pull on something that has an object in between it is harder, even more so if that object is both alive and invested. 35 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Vin destroyed 20 men with a single belt buckle proving that it can be pushed and pulled even when behind a person. Yes if some coins lodge into the windrunners body this would be a loss for them but then the windrunner has to deal with the fact that there are metal chunks moving around inside of them during every move they make and tearing them up more and more. More and more chances for there to be chunks of metal in the way of regrowing blood vessels or muscles or bones... if anything this is going to drain stormlight faster as having shrapnel in your body getting moved around by every movement you make is causing constant damage. If they heal like wolverine and push the metal out then the mistborn has it to use again.  The rings inside Sazed were simply healed over, and Marsh had stronger steel than a mistborn would. 36 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Yes it can. I am not talking about pushing a wooden shield. I am saying if you reverse lash the shield and drag coins to it then you will be making a metal anchor by creating a nice studded wooden shield for the mistborn to use.  Coins wouldn't stay there, so that doesn't actually provide any advantage. 38 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Shardblade isnt an insta win. We see normal people without pewter overcome shardblades in the books far more often than we see normal people overcoming a pewterarm in the books. Shardblades can be worked around... Kaladin did it and the idea he was using some stormlight is (as far as I know) not verified and even if he was it was so inefficient that it was more him than it was the stormlight. We saw Syl earlier in that chapter, so he did have powers.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: Anything short of Duralumin wouldn't work. That's not true at all, you need cracks in your spiritweb, but that can be as simple as being lonely or neglected. Having mental problems as bad as Kaladin or Shallan is the outlier, we just have selection bias. That works only if you can push or pull towards them, you can't send metal anywhere that isn't directly to or away from you. Terminal velocity is determined by the force of gravity. Multiple lashings means terminal velocity is a higher speed. Yes you would, a few hundred would run out too quickly, and trying to pull on something that has an object in between it is harder, even more so if that object is both alive and invested. The rings inside Sazed were simply healed over, and Marsh had stronger steel than a mistborn would. Coins wouldn't stay there, so that doesn't actually provide any advantage. We saw Syl earlier in that chapter, so he did have powers. I don't know that we will ever agree on this. Windrunners aren't breaking the sound barrier or traveling FTL because you can't shoot a rock like a bullet through the power of gravity. If it were possible then it would have happened at this point.  I can't accept that stormlight protects them from emotional allomancy for the simple fact that there isn't a single WoB saying otherwise. The only WoB provided stated that the radiant shouldnt leave their helm behind if they want to resist emotional allomancy.  Spoiler BasakaIsTheStrongest Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) It is interesting he even says don't dismiss your helmet... I assume that refers to a radiant of at least the 4th ideal as dismissing your helmet isnt an option for someone who has dead plate. Stormlight doesnt provide protection against emotional allomancy. Vin tore through 20 men with a belt buckle. Using the push and pull of steel and iron. She can generate enough momentum with it to pass a non sharp object through people to the point where that is her sole weapon in the confrontation, and she was able to execute the room of haze killers. The windrunner can continue moving in other directions but it doesn't change that the mistborn is going to continue to have access to all of those coins so long as they pass through him. Catching all of the coins in your body so you can heal around them and the mistborn doesn't have them anymore is a poor option for the fact that you can't really choose what bullets lodge inside of you and which ones don't.  The reverse lashing on the shield is going to give you a coin on your new anchor or a coin you can continue to use in other ways. There is no realm where having a wooden shield with a reverse lashing negates all of steel and iron at once. As soon as that coin touches the shield it is an anchor. If the reverse lashing pulls everything to it until they hit it and then they all fall down then you still have access to them. But as long as there is a lashing pulling things to it it becomes a new anchor. A coin getting lodged inside of it only makes it more so.  My argument isn't necessarily that the mistborn wins here. It is that there are tools that are handwaved away in all of these discussions that give the mistborn more chances to win than we previously saw. Any attempt to redirect a coin does not take it out of the fight, which is something that had been alluded to a lot in this thread. Aside from absorbing the coin inside of themselves the coins are still in play.  Kaladin with stormlight beat the shardbearer without being hit. Pewter gives more mobility / strength / balance than stormlight so it is not outside of the realm of possibility that pewter can fight shardbearers without getting hit. It is also not outside the realm of possibility that a pewterarm can fight a radiant with stormlight without getting hit. Pewter outclasses stormlight in everything except healing. Kaladin won without the need for healing and I am pretty certain Vin/ Kelsier could have accomplished the same feat and even done it cleaner in every way.  Â
Frustration Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I don't know that we will ever agree on this. Windrunners aren't breaking the sound barrier or traveling FTL because you can't shoot a rock like a bullet through the power of gravity. If it were possible then it would have happened at this point. I don't know how you can deny multiple lashings making you faster, given all the times we've seen it. And even with gravity aiding you you can't go FTL. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I can't accept that stormlight protects them from emotional allomancy for the simple fact that there isn't a single WoB saying otherwise. The only WoB provided stated that the radiant shouldnt leave their helm behind if they want to resist emotional allomancy. This one says having a lot of breath protects you Spoiler Questioner Would a person holding a large amount of Breaths be less influenced by emotional Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That's book-signing canon on that one, if you understand that phrase. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) And when Kaladin was in shadesmar he was asked what heightening he was when he used the fortune sphere, meaning that without stormlight he was at least as invested as someone with 50 breaths, holding stormlight he'd be even more invested. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Vin tore through 20 men with a belt buckle. Using the push and pull of steel and iron. She can generate enough momentum with it to pass a non sharp object through people to the point where that is her sole weapon in the confrontation, and she was able to execute the room of haze killers. The windrunner can continue moving in other directions but it doesn't change that the mistborn is going to continue to have access to all of those coins so long as they pass through him. Catching all of the coins in your body so you can heal around them and the mistborn doesn't have them anymore is a poor option for the fact that you can't really choose what bullets lodge inside of you and which ones don't. And Vin was abnormally powerful. Kelsier was almost beaten by 8 hazekillers. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: The reverse lashing on the shield is going to give you a coin on your new anchor or a coin you can continue to use in other ways. There is no realm where having a wooden shield with a reverse lashing negates all of steel and iron at once. As soon as that coin touches the shield it is an anchor. If the reverse lashing pulls everything to it until they hit it and then they all fall down then you still have access to them. But as long as there is a lashing pulling things to it it becomes a new anchor. A coin getting lodged inside of it only makes it more so.  Coins don't get lodged in them, and without that there is no advantage to continuing to push on coins, it will just run you out of steel faster. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: My argument isn't necessarily that the mistborn wins here. It is that there are tools that are handwaved away in all of these discussions that give the mistborn more chances to win than we previously saw. Any attempt to redirect a coin does not take it out of the fight, which is something that had been alluded to a lot in this thread. Aside from absorbing the coin inside of themselves the coins are still in play. Coins being in play doesn't significantly increase a Mistborn's chances. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Pewter gives more mobility / strength / balance than stormlight Only more strength, stormlight beats pewter in speed and balance(WoK 870)
Immortal Platypus Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 also, i think it's funny that people keep assuming that I'd switch my Blade to a Shield. If I'm a KR, and I can Lash my Blade (which, to be clear, I don't think you can, and I'm a KR supporter) I'll just lash it in sword form (or whatever weapon I'm using. It will still work. Just a friendly notice
Frustration Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 4 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said: also, i think it's funny that people keep assuming that I'd switch my Blade to a Shield. If I'm a KR, and I can Lash my Blade (which, to be clear, I don't think you can, and I'm a KR supporter) I'll just lash it in sword form (or whatever weapon I'm using. It will still work. Just a friendly notice RoW confirmed that you can't lash shardblades, even your own.
Immortal Platypus Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 ok. why have people been talking about Lashing Shardshields then? Either way, thanks for confirming that.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 8 hours ago, Being of Cacophony said: ok. why have people been talking about Lashing Shardshields then? Either way, thanks for confirming that. I wasn't wanting to talk about lashing the shard. Simply that the only way to have a shield that was pulling shooting coins to it without becoming an anchor for the mistborn to run from via steel constantly was if you could lash a shard.  If a reverse lashing has the strength to pull bullets off of their course I imagine it is going to hold them there for a time. Meaning that wherever they are pulled to becomes a new anchor. It doesn't engulf them into nothingness. The coin and metal still exist. If that is a shield you are carrying then the mistborn has a moving anchor with you guiding it until it is dropped which removes your defense against their ranged attacks.  I simply was pointing out that the only way to circumvent this would be if you could lash a shard (but investiture resists investiture) then maybe you could drop the shard dropping the coins and resummon it for a next volley.  I wasn't using it as a legitimate option just a hypothetical to stop yourself from offering the mistborn an anchor to push off of continuously. Â
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 12 hours ago, Frustration said: I don't know how you can deny multiple lashings making you faster, given all the times we've seen it. And even with gravity aiding you you can't go FTL. This one says having a lot of breath protects you  Reveal hidden contents Questioner Would a person holding a large amount of Breaths be less influenced by emotional Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That's book-signing canon on that one, if you understand that phrase. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) And when Kaladin was in shadesmar he was asked what heightening he was when he used the fortune sphere, meaning that without stormlight he was at least as invested as someone with 50 breaths, holding stormlight he'd be even more invested. And Vin was abnormally powerful. Kelsier was almost beaten by 8 hazekillers. Coins don't get lodged in them, and without that there is no advantage to continuing to push on coins, it will just run you out of steel faster. Coins being in play doesn't significantly increase a Mistborn's chances. Only more strength, stormlight beats pewter in speed and balance(WoK 870) Multiple lashings can make you faster but your not shooting rocks at speeds equivalent to what the mistborn is shooting coins. Other factors come into play. After all of the math done showing how fast windrunners can fly you deny that if they could break the sound barrier they wouldn't have? Especially with shardplate to absorb any friction and heat that would be generated by that? If increasing your speed was as simple as stacking more lashings we would have seen it. But it isn't. You are still very limited by what the atmosphere around you is going to allow you to do. You will accelerate faster but you will not be outclassing a gun or a coin.  However. Size matters in momentum. I agree that a sizeable rock would be a totally viable weapon. How large that rock is matters a ton and the mistborn will likely be able to dodge any rocks that are a threat at the speed of falling.  I am a huge fan of Dr. Ashby and I am a huge believer in using weight and momentum vs maxing speed with light arrowheads. I also think that coins are a weak weapon choice for mistborn when put next to heavier shot options. They aren't aerodynamic and they have to hit ancertain way to keep their momentum going. I would rather see mistborn traveling with a pouch full of heavy 500+ grain ball bearings. I attribute Vins success with the belt buckle more to the weight of a belt buckle.  I don't think that a coin would have given her nearly as much control.  As far as the shield argument. Coin hits shield. Coin is stuck to shield via the reverse lashing. Coin now on shield becomes an anchor. Just as a coin would become an instant anchor if you smashed it into a wall and hit a chewed up piece of gum. Now that coin is on there and that is your anchor. It doesn't disappear.  I can't read that page in WoK at the present. I know we have the bridge 4 run times and Vin running with Kelsier as a decent base for speed. I don't think the bridge 4 run times outclassed the Vin and Kelsier run and bridge 4 was a race where as the mistborn run was Vins top speed not Kelsiers.  Running the length of a state over 12 hours and arriving at the same time one of them was holding back. Even a small change would cause them to stagger their appearance drastically.  Vin shows a fairly casual jump of 7-8 feet and lands with no issues when she and Ham are sparring. Pewter is described as giving the agility and balance of a cat.  Stormlight may offer more balance as it is perfected but perfected balance vs perfected balance is more a tie. I need to see the page you referenced for speed.  I am pretty sure Kel and Vin would embarrass the bridge 4 members in their run though. The explosiveness of the fast twitch muscles being increased by 2-3 times on pewter are going to offer more to the mistborn in terms of speed and close quarters combat than the perfected body of stormlight. Not to discount the shardblade. But they do move faster than their stormlight fueled counter parts. Each movement is more powerful as well. And if you combine all of that with their gravitational discrepancies based on which planet they are on pewter comes out on top. Â
therunner he/him Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:  Multiple lashings can make you faster but your not shooting rocks at speeds equivalent to what the mistborn is shooting coins. Other factors come into play. After all of the math done showing how fast windrunners can fly you deny that if they could break the sound barrier they wouldn't have? Especially with shardplate to absorb any friction and heat that would be generated by that? If increasing your speed was as simple as stacking more lashings we would have seen it. But it isn't. You are still very limited by what the atmosphere around you is going to allow you to do. You will accelerate faster but you will not be outclassing a gun or a coin. A small rock (~200 grams) would have terminal velocity around ~120 m/s if lashed 3 times, which it would reach in about 4 seconds (so it would probably hit far before reaching this speed). We do see that stacking lashings increases speed? Kaladin does it in WoR in arena fight, and repeatedly mentions it as advantage Windrunners have over Honorable Ones, who cannot lash themselves multiple times. Additionally, Windrunners have Surge of Adhesion, allowing them to manipulate pressure for even higher speeds. Additional, Windrunenrs can in principle travel between planets! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/450/#e14436 So Windrunners can overcome escape velocity which is around ~11km/s. So yeah, Windrunner could break sound barrier, easily. And how fast are the coins Mistborn fire? They are not faster then gunshots, and they are not supersonic either. They can be blocked by simple wooden shields, so they are not moving all that fast. 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: However. Size matters in momentum. I agree that a sizeable rock would be a totally viable weapon. How large that rock is matters a ton and the mistborn will likely be able to dodge any rocks that are a threat at the speed of falling. There is no such things as 'speed of falling', how fast the rock will be moving will depend only on two things, 1) How many lashings were applied 2) Distance of Mistborn and Radiant. The greater the distance, the faster the rock will move, and the more lashings the faster the rock will move. Edit: Effectively, larger distance also benefits Radiant, because their projectiles can move faster and hit in very short time. If they are ~20 meters apart, 200 gram rock Lashed 5x times will be accelerating at ~50 m/s^2 (Earth gravity) and it would cover the distance in ~0.9 second having speed at the end of ~ 45 m/s (160 km/h). The same rock lashed 10x times will be accelerating at ~100 m/s^2, would cover the distance in 0.6 seconds and hit at ~60 m/s. If you double the distance to ~40 meters, at 5x lashings it would take ~1.2 seconds to cover and it would hit at 60 m/s (216 km/h) For 10x lashings the rock would hit in 0.89 seconds and move at ~89 m/s (320 km/h). And there is no upper limit on the amount of lashings (outside of amount of Stormlight). I don't think Mistborn have good enough reflexes to dodge rock moving at hundreds of kilometers per hour, that is also constantly accelerating on top of that. Edited January 20, 2023 by therunner 1
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, therunner said: A small rock (~200 grams) would have terminal velocity around ~120 m/s if lashed 3 times, which it would reach in about 4 seconds (so it would probably hit far before reaching this speed). We do see that stacking lashings increases speed? Kaladin does it in WoR in arena fight, and repeatedly mentions it as advantage Windrunners have over Honorable Ones, who cannot lash themselves multiple times. Additionally, Windrunners have Surge of Adhesion, allowing them to manipulate pressure for even higher speeds. Additional, Windrunenrs can in principle travel between planets! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/450/#e14436 So Windrunners can overcome escape velocity which is around ~11km/s. So yeah, Windrunner could break sound barrier, easily. And how fast are the coins Mistborn fire? They are not faster then gunshots, and they are not supersonic either. They can be blocked by simple wooden shields, so they are not moving all that fast. There is no such things as 'speed of falling', how fast the rock will be moving will depend only on two things, 1) How many lashings were applied 2) Distance of Mistborn and Radiant. The greater the distance, the faster the rock will move, and the more lashings the faster the rock will move. If they are ~20 meters apart, 200 gram rock Lashed 5x times will be accelerating at ~50 m/s^2 (Earth gravity) and it would cover the distance in ~0.9 second having speed at the end of ~ 45 m/s (160 km/h). The same rock lashed 10x times will be accelerating at ~100 m/s^2, would cover the distance in 0.6 seconds and hit at ~60 m/s. If you double the distance to ~40 meters, at 5x lashings it would take ~1.2 seconds to cover and it would hit at 60 m/s (216 km/h) For 10x lashings the rock would hit in 0.89 seconds and move at ~89 m/s (320 km/h). And there is no upper limit on the amount of lashings (outside of amount of Stormlight). I don't think Mistborn have good enough reflexes to dodge rock moving at hundreds of kilometers per hour, that is also constantly accelerating on top of that. So gravitation ignores air resistance?  The entire purpose of terminal velocity is that there is a cap, that cap being the resistance of the air on the thing being shot out. Yes traveling faster would help to mitigate that.  We are just playing with different rules now. The highest speed of a windrunner in the books was around 220mph using all of the tricks. Now we are breaking all of that on the theoretical of being able to break the sound barrier with the tricks. Why then wouldn't the windrunners be more effective at their jobs?  Is the fact that they aren't doing that simply plot armor in favor of the antagonists? Â
therunner he/him Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: So gravitation ignores air resistance?  The entire purpose of terminal velocity is that there is a cap, that cap being the resistance of the air on the thing being shot out. Yes traveling faster would help to mitigate that. No, terminal velocity is just dependant on the acceleration of object and on air pressure. Windrunner can increase the former (stacking lashings), and reduce the later(adhesion for manipulating pressure), for achieving great speeds. 7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: We are just playing with different rules now. The highest speed of a windrunner in the books was around 220mph using all of the tricks. Now we are breaking all of that on the theoretical of being able to break the sound barrier with the tricks. Why then wouldn't the windrunners be more effective at their jobs?  Is the fact that they aren't doing that simply plot armor in favor of the antagonists?  No, the highest speed was moving ahead of Highstorm, at ~370 mph. It is more that doing so would not be practical in most fights, so there is no reason to do that. They can still move around faster, and maneuver better than Mistborn can, even when being subsonic. Edited January 20, 2023 by therunner
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 26 minutes ago, therunner said: No, terminal velocity is just dependant on the acceleration of object and on air pressure. Windrunner can increase the former (stacking lashings), and reduce the later(adhesion for manipulating pressure), for achieving great speeds. No, the highest speed was moving ahead of Highstorm, at ~370 mph. It is more that doing so would not be practical in most fights, so there is no reason to do that. They can still move around faster, and maneuver better than Mistborn can, even when being subsonic. How much stormlight would be drained if one was to dump 50+lashings onto a rock?  Plus manipulating the adhesion behind it. Seems alot for a single projectile.  That gets into the measurements of needed investiture for outcome X which is the most fudged figure in any writing. Even Brandon falls victim to the "just need a little bit more... ah yes!" Phenomenon. Metals are a lot more cut and dry about how fast they are used.  We would need pretty cut and dry amounts of each and cost of doing XYZ before we can really break it down.  The rock is viable insomuch as it does not use up more stormlight than it is worth. That can't be accurately judged in theoreticals unfortunately. And in the theoreticals is where radiants win most of these. Because there is always room for a little more.  Rocks aside on all of this I stand by my thoughts on coins being shot through and pulled back through a shieldless radiant and I stand by my thoughts that with a shield using a reverse lashing the mistborn can forever bounce away from the radiant with a single coin. The shield doesnt give the radiant distance closing powers. Radiants best shot is to hope they have enough stormlight to dodge and heal all coin shots they suffer until they eventually do close the gap and then cut the mistborn through the spine. Â
therunner he/him Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: How much stormlight would be drained if one was to dump 50+lashings onto a rock?  Good question, we don't know? Though Lashing a person once is trivial, and even Szeth does that multiple times. Living creatures resist Investiture more, so they should take more Stormlight to Lash than rocks, and considering the weight difference, taking a rock that weights 200 gram and putting in it 50 Lashings should take about 1/7 as much Stormlight as Lashing full grown person. Assuming that additional Lashings don't take more Stormlight, however no such mention is made anywhere in book. So Lashing a rock 50 times is 'easy' and not that expansive. 4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Rocks aside on all of this I stand by my thoughts on coins being shot through and pulled back through a shieldless radiant and I stand by my thoughts that with a shield using a reverse lashing the mistborn can forever bounce away from the radiant with a single coin. The shield doesnt give the radiant distance closing powers. Radiants best shot is to hope they have enough stormlight to dodge and heal all coin shots they suffer until they eventually do close the gap and then cut the mistborn through the spine.  I think Radiant's best way to win is to just tank the coins, close the distance and cut Mistborn with their shapeshifting Shardblade. Windrunner needs to land a single good hit.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, therunner said: Good question, we don't know? Though Lashing a person once is trivial, and even Szeth does that multiple times. Living creatures resist Investiture more, so they should take more Stormlight to Lash than rocks, and considering the weight difference, taking a rock that weights 200 gram and putting in it 50 Lashings should take about 1/7 as much Stormlight as Lashing full grown person. Assuming that additional Lashings don't take more Stormlight, however no such mention is made anywhere in book. So Lashing a rock 50 times is 'easy' and not that expansive. I think Radiant's best way to win is to just tank the coins, close the distance and cut Mistborn with their shapeshifting Shardblade. Windrunner needs to land a single good hit. Honestly we agree a lot more on radiants win con than we disagree on other things. So long as Brandon doesnt perish tragically before we get answers we will eventually get answers. So many of his WoBs talk about running the numbers... I wish he would release his forumlas if only to placate my mind for it. I dont even have time for games anymore in my life but I asked my wife for all the MAG books just so I could have a system of formulas to run off of... it may not be cannon WoB level stuff but dang it I want to math out the fights!!  1
therunner he/him Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Honestly we agree a lot more on radiants win con than we disagree on other things. That is good to know Sometimes it is overly easy to focus on the disagreements and not on the parts others agree on. 2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:  So long as Brandon doesnt perish tragically before we get answers we will eventually get answers. So many of his WoBs talk about running the numbers... I wish he would release his forumlas if only to placate my mind for it. I dont even have time for games anymore in my life but I asked my wife for all the MAG books just so I could have a system of formulas to run off of... it may not be cannon WoB level stuff but dang it I want to math out the fights!!  I agree! I would love to finally have solid numbers on how Investiture intesive different Invested arts are, conversion factors etc. It would make these discussion so much more fun! And also more focused because we would have actual numbers, instead of trying to get numbers from books scenes which were not intended to be used that way 1
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 28 minutes ago, therunner said: That is good to know Sometimes it is overly easy to focus on the disagreements and not on the parts others agree on. I agree! I would love to finally have solid numbers on how Investiture intesive different Invested arts are, conversion factors etc. It would make these discussion so much more fun! And also more focused because we would have actual numbers, instead of trying to get numbers from books scenes which were not intended to be used that way Just found this.... THE NUMBERS EXIST... we just can't have them.  Spoiler Questioner When Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, is that something you've worked out, how much Stormlight should have, and how much each move takes? Brandon Sanderson So, what I do is, I actually write the thing first, and then I tell my assistant, "Work out how much he needs," and then I give him that much. I work backward. Yeah, I do that a lot in books, but that's a little bit seeing how the sausage is made, there. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)  1
therunner he/him Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Just found this.... THE NUMBERS EXIST... we just can't have them.   Hide contents Questioner When Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, is that something you've worked out, how much Stormlight should have, and how much each move takes? Brandon Sanderson So, what I do is, I actually write the thing first, and then I tell my assistant, "Work out how much he needs," and then I give him that much. I work backward. Yeah, I do that a lot in books, but that's a little bit seeing how the sausage is made, there. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)  The sacred texts! I think they are still working out mainly the conversion among different Investiture types and then how that translates to energy. But it is good to know that they have some general idea of how much do different things take  Thanks for that WoB!
Frustration Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: If a reverse lashing has the strength to pull bullets off of their course I imagine it is going to hold them there for a time. Meaning that wherever they are pulled to becomes a new anchor. It doesn't engulf them into nothingness. The coin and metal still exist. If that is a shield you are carrying then the mistborn has a moving anchor with you guiding it until it is dropped which removes your defense against their ranged attacks.  You can just stop the reverse lashing when you move forawrd. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Multiple lashings can make you faster but your not shooting rocks at speeds equivalent to what the mistborn is shooting coins. Other factors come into play. After all of the math done showing how fast windrunners can fly you deny that if they could break the sound barrier they wouldn't have? Especially with shardplate to absorb any friction and heat that would be generated by that? If increasing your speed was as simple as stacking more lashings we would have seen it. But it isn't. You are still very limited by what the atmosphere around you is going to allow you to do. You will accelerate faster but you will not be outclassing a gun or a coin.  We do see it. WoK: Szeth has to use multiple lashings to move the stone he cut out of the wall, to break down the balcony while fighting Gavilar, etc. WoR:  Szeth used them multiple times in the fight with King Havavanar, Kaladin burned through all of his stormlight making lashings for a singe kick etc. I can go on, but we have dozens of examples of multiple lashings making you go faster. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: However. Size matters in momentum. I agree that a sizeable rock would be a totally viable weapon. How large that rock is matters a ton and the mistborn will likely be able to dodge any rocks that are a threat at the speed of falling. F=MA, small rocks with more lashings would hit just as hard as larger ones. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: As far as the shield argument. Coin hits shield. Coin is stuck to shield via the reverse lashing. Coin now on shield becomes an anchor. Just as a coin would become an instant anchor if you smashed it into a wall and hit a chewed up piece of gum. Now that coin is on there and that is your anchor. It doesn't disappear. And what advantages does that give you? You can push on it, great. How does that help you as that won't push the radiant back, and when they are coming towards you they won't be holding the reverse lashing. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I can't read that page in WoK at the present. I know we have the bridge 4 run times and Vin running with Kelsier as a decent base for speed. I don't think the bridge 4 run times outclassed the Vin and Kelsier run and bridge 4 was a race where as the mistborn run was Vins top speed not Kelsiers.  Running the length of a state over 12 hours and arriving at the same time one of them was holding back. Even a small change would cause them to stagger their appearance drastically. Why go with the bridge runs? In OB Chapter 48 someone holding stormlight can run over a Rosharan mile while carrying full gear and rations in under six minutes(OB 465 & 466). That's over 10 mph, while carrying around 68 pounds(given modern military equipment and ration weight, so it's probably more than that, but under Rosharan gravity it should work out the same). Using the military's formula, and assuming that Dehry weighs 175 pounds, he could do it in a little under 4 minutes, or over 15 mph at the slowest. Now the truely increadible thing is there's no downsides, and you can just keep going forever. On page 348 of TFE Vin says that they were slower than a gallpping horse, even when flaring pewter, so I guess pewter would be faster. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Vin shows a fairly casual jump of 7-8 feet and lands with no issues when she and Ham are sparring. Pewter is described as giving the agility and balance of a cat. Radiants fell the 100-200 feet into the chasms without trouble, and Windrunners will routinely drop tens of feet to the ground. 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: So gravitation ignores air resistance?  The entire purpose of terminal velocity is that there is a cap, that cap being the resistance of the air on the thing being shot out. Yes traveling faster would help to mitigate that.  Traveling faster doesn't mitigate it, it changes terminal veliocity entirely. Terminal velocity is really complex, taking into account mass, surface area, acceleration, etc. Even changing from falling on your stomach, to feet first will change your terminal velocity. When you can increase you speed terminal velocity changes as well. 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: How much stormlight would be drained if one was to dump 50+lashings onto a rock?  Plus manipulating the adhesion behind it. Seems alot for a single projectile. Stormlight usage depends on the mass off the object, so probably not a lot.
alder24 Posted January 20, 2023 Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: Traveling faster doesn't mitigate it, it changes terminal veliocity entirely. Terminal velocity is really complex, taking into account mass, surface area, acceleration, etc. Even changing from falling on your stomach, to feet first will change your terminal velocity. When you can increase you speed terminal velocity changes as well. Just for clarification, it's not the speed or faster travel that changes the terminal velocity, it is the force of gravity that does it. The bigger is the force of gravity, the bigger force of air drag needs to be to equalized gravity which results in 0 acceleration. Terminal velocity is the speed in which there is no longer any acceleration. Stacking multiple lashings results in greater gravitational force, which means a bigger force of air drag is needed to cancel it out, and therefore you can accelerate longer which increases terminal velocity. I know you know this, so I just want to clarify that so there is no confusion. Edit: However the drag force does depend on the speed you are traveling. The greater this speed is, the bigger this force gets. If the speed is greater than terminal velocity, drag force would be bigger than force of gravity, which would result in negative acceleration slowing you down. Edited January 20, 2023 by alder24 1
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