Hemalurgic Duralumin

[Treamayne]

Does anybody else find it odd that Not-Wax didn't have a Spike granting Pewter? Afterall, he's using Duralumin Steelpushes all over the place, but we know from Vin that:

Spoiler

WoA Ch 11:

Quote

Then, still Pushing against the bulwark, she burned duralumin.

A sudden force smashed against her. It was so powerful, she was certain that only an equally powerful flash of pewter held her body together. 

Quote

Vin hissed in frustration as the group took sight. Well, friends, she thought, I suggest that you hang on tightly.

She Pushed slightly against them all, then burned duralumin. The sudden crash of force was expected—the wrench in her chest, the massive flare in her stomach, the howling wind. What she didn’t expect was the effect she’d have on her anchors. The blast of power scattered men and horses, throwing them into the air like leaves in the wind.

I’m going to have to be very careful with this, Vin thought, gritting her teeth and spinning herself in the air. Her steel and pewter were gone again, and she was forced to down her last metal vial. 

WoA Ch 57

Quote

There were inlays on the floor. Deep ones. Curious, she anchored herself by Pulling on these, then Pulled on the wall again. She thought she felt something budge.

She burned duralumin and Pulled as hard as she could. The explosion of power nearly ripped her apart, but her anchor held, and duralumin-fueled pewter kept her alive.

HoA Ch 3:

Quote

Vin smiled, then burned duralumin. Immediately, the pewter already burning inside of her exploded to give her a massive, instantaneous burst of strength. Duralumin, when used with another metal, amplified that second metal and made it burn out in a single burst, giving up all of its power at once.

Vin burned steel, then Pushed outward in all directions. Her duralumin-enhanced Push crashed like a wave into the swords of the creatures running at her. Weapons ripped free, koloss were thrown backward, and massive bodies scattered like mere flakes of ash beneath the bloodred sun. Duralumin-enhanced pewter kept her from being crushed as she did this.

HoA Ch 72:

Quote

Taking a deep breath, Vin extinguished her tin, then burned duralumin, steel, and pewter. She Pushed outward with a sudden wave of power; Inquisitors were thrown back by their spikes. They sprawled, falling to the ground, cursing.

Vin hit the cobblestones. Suddenly, the pain in her back and her throat seemed impossibly strong. She flared tin to clear her mind, but still stumbled, woozily, as she climbed to her feet. She’d used up all of her pewter in that one burst.

 

So, is Hemalurgic Duralumin just weaker, or is something shady going on? The crushed car from Not-Wax's Durlumin push implies it should still cause massive injury without Pewter (or F-Gold) to compensate. . . but he was shown to not be a Bloodmaker and nothing was ever said about a Thug Spike.  Does it perhaps depend on how much Steel or Iron is available when Duralumin "flashes" the metal - we do see Vin use Duralumin-Steel without pewter in HoA Ch 37:

Spoiler

 Vin burned duralumin, then Pushed. The horses in front screamed, the improvised weapon scattering them to the ground. The canvas ripped, and the stakes pulled free, but the damage was done—those in front tripped those behind, and men tumbled beside their beasts.

Vin downed another vial to replenish her steel. Then she Pulled, whipping another tent toward her. As it grew close, she jumped, then spun and Pushed the tent toward another group of mounted men behind. 

EDIT: Duh Me - I missed the reference to his Pewter in Wayne's POV Ch 65:

Spoiler

“Survival,” the man said with a grunt, “of those most worthy. Trell demands that her servants prove themselves. Against adversity. Against society. Against the roles we take. And when there are several who fit the same slot in life … well, only the strongest can survive and be rewarded.”

“Rusts,” Wayne said. “That is one of the most messed-up things I’ve ever heard, mate.”

Not-Wax pried Wayne’s fingers free with pewter-enhanced strength. “It is the way of Autonomy. To find our place in the coming pantheon of rulers, we must be the best versions of ourselves.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Treamayne
Content and Formatting

[Returned]

I thought it was odd also. But maybe, even though it feels like they'll be crushed, that's just not how Pushing and Pulling work. Do we have any examples of confirmation of someone crushing themselves, or suffering injuries, from using iron or steel this way? In Bands of Mourning we saw Wax push an entire train car by himself, and while uncomfortable he wasn't squashed. Maybe an effect of using F-iron at the same time? Since both not-Wax and not-Wayne were meant to be so similar to the real duo, maybe not-Wax had access to F-iron and used it as Wax did with the train car?

It seems like it would matter how much metal you have in you when you burn duralumin. That's how Wayne's plan on the ship works. Vin's non-pewter Push might have worked because she was Pushing on small objects, so the force transfer to her was mild. At the same time, we see not-Wax Pushing all sorts of things in all sorts of situations. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Returned

[bmcclure7]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Does anybody else find it odd that Not-Wax didn't have a Pewter Spike? Afterall, he's using Duralumin Steelpushes all over the place, but we know from Vin that:

  Reveal hidden contents

WoA Ch 11:

WoA Ch 57

HoA Ch 3:

HoA Ch 72:

 

So, is Hemalurgic Duralumin just weaker, or is something shady going on? The crushed car from Not-Wax's Durlumin push imples it should still cause massive injury without Pewter (or F-Gold) to compensate. . . but he was shown to not be a Bloodmaker and nothing was ever said about a Pewter Spike.  Does it perhaps depend on how much Steel or Iron is available when Duralumin "flashes" the metal - we do see Vin use Duralumin-Steel without pewter in HoA Ch 37:

  Reveal hidden contents

 Vin burned duralumin, then Pushed. The horses in front screamed, the improvised weapon scattering them to the ground. The canvas ripped, and the stakes pulled free, but the damage was done—those in front tripped those behind, and men tumbled beside their beasts.

Vin downed another vial to replenish her steel. Then she Pulled, whipping another tent toward her. As it grew close, she jumped, then spun and Pushed the tent toward another group of mounted men behind. 

 

He did have a pewter spike , didn't he?

[Returned]

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

He did have a pewter spike , didn't he?

Checking again, you're right. The spike isn't mentioned, as far as I can tell, but Wax guesses that Dumad has pewter and later Dumad is explicitly described as having pewter-enhanced strength:

Quote

"A second shot took Dumad in the chest as he was turning, then exploded out his back.

Incredibly, the Coinshot didn't fall. Pewter. Did the fellow have pewter to burn and push through wounds?" (The Lost Metal, page 332)

Quote

"Not-Wax pried Wayne's fingers free with pewter-enhanced strength." (The Lost Metal, page 414)

 

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

Checking again, you're right. The spike isn't mentioned, as far as I can tell, but Wax guesses that Dumad has pewter and later Dumad is explicitly described as having pewter-enhanced strength:

 

No but it says wax has his pewter spike so the fake wax must have had one. 

[Returned]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

No but it says wax has his pewter spike so the fake wax must have had one. 

Where does it say that? My reading sessions of the book were pretty quick, so I'm sure I glossed over a lot. I'd thought that Wax took his duralumin spike (only), and then was Mistborn due to the harmonium explosion in his lab, so I wasn't looking for other spikes.

[Kasimir]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Where does it say that? My reading sessions of the book were pretty quick, so I'm sure I glossed over a lot. I'd thought that Wax took his duralumin spike (only), and then was Mistborn due to the harmonium explosion in his lab, so I wasn't looking for other spikes.

Presume it's the line Harmony says: "Fortunately, this one will be channeled mostly upward—and Wax has pewter now." I read it as granted from the lerasium dust he inhaled, but I know some theorise it's either from his Pathian earring or Dumad's spike.

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, Returned said:

Where does it say that? My reading sessions of the book were pretty quick, so I'm sure I glossed over a lot. I'd thought that Wax took his duralumin spike (only), and then was Mistborn due to the harmonium explosion in his lab, so I wasn't looking for other spikes.

 No, Harmony specifically says that he can't use his misborn powers.  Probably  Because he didn't have enough lerasium.  Besides the fact wax is no idea he ingested lerasium  So he would not be able to burn Pwter Unless he had the spike. 

  The assumption is that he took all the spikes, Except for the coin shot which he gave to Wayne. 

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Presume it's the line Harmony says: "Fortunately, this one will be channeled mostly upward—and Wax has pewter now." I read it as granted from the lerasium dust he inhaled, but I know some theorise it's either from his Pathian earring or Dumad's spike.

 Harmony specifically says that it Hasn't made him a mistborn, when talking to wax.  And even if he did he doesn't know he has these powers so Is expecting him to be able to burn pewter when he  Doesn't know that he even should be inigesting any Is a little bit of a stretch. Would make much more sense if he has the spike. 

[Kasimir]

38 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Harmony specifically says that it Hasn't made him a mistborn, when talking to wax.  And even if he did he doesn't know he has these powers so Is expecting him to be able to burn pewter when he  Doesn't know that he even should be inigesting any Is a little bit of a stretch. Would make much more sense if he has the spike. 

Eh, I think that's subject to the fact the text references he has one spike, and we know it was the duralumin. Wax should also have been pretty aware he could burn pewter if he did in fact deliberately spike himself with Dumad's pewter spike, so the same objection applies to your theory as well. The only way the pewter spike theory works is if it's his Pathian earring.

In the same way, the objection that Wax doesn't know he should be ingesting any is odd, because that's the same problem for Wax with a pewter spike: he'd still need to have ingested pewter. And we know where he got it from.

Harmony tells Wayne that:

Quote

Fortunately, this one will be channeled mostly upward—and Wax has pewter now. So long as he burns the metals in those other vials I gave him, he should survive the blast."

So a pewter spike theory or a weak Mistborn theory will both agree that Harmony gave him a full metal mixture or something of that sort - with enough pewter that he could survive the blast. As long as he burned it. As long as he thought to burn it. 

Except that Wax doesn't consciously burn pewter. He doesn't go "oh, guess I better switch on my pewter." What he does think is:

Quote

As the waters grew more choppy, Wax had to struggle harder. He forced through pain, grief, and fatigue to keep himself—barely—afloat. He burned his steel, then...something else. Something deep within, which kept him warm."

If he deliberately spiked himself with pewter, why doesn't he just say pewter? He knows he has pewter. And he sure knows this isn't duralumin.

Harmony also agrees that Wax might have had a dose of lerasium, inhaled during the explosion, and we know that odd things have been happening to his metal sight, where he sees fleeting blue lines even though he's not burning steel, and the mists vanishing (possible tin use?) The weak Mistborn theory is that he's burning trace metals, e.g. iron, because of course, Wax wouldn't have figured he could burn other metals now, and so might not have checked his reserves. The first time he is conscious of it is in the water, and he doesn't mention it again.

It's a similar deal to Vin, essentially. Vin burned trace metals, including pewter, fairly instinctively.

You can dislike the reflexive burning without realising point, but your preferred theory still has to rely on that, because Wax put on his earring on the way up to the roof and never noticed, either. 

I prefer the weak Mistborn theory because it explains the oddities with the lines, and a few other moments that look potentially like weak, maybe even reflexive pewter use during the brawls with their doubles. I also think that it explains the "Wax has pewter now," emphasis mine. Maybe Harmony wasn't that sure until Wax spiked himself, or until Wax was actually burning. If Harmony has been giving Wax a pewter spike all along, then why 'now'? This wouldn't have been a new development, since Wax had been putting his earring on anyway.

That being said, if the weak Mistborn theory fails, then IMO, the next most promising theory is definitely the Pathian earring pewter spike theory. Wax refers to himself consistently as having a single spike, and the better candidate is duralumin. It doesn't stand to reason he took Dumad's pewter too. (Also, just as an aside: given Wax's issues with Harmony, I'm not sure I can see Wax deciding to stab himself with one extra spike than he felt he needed.)

Edited to add: You could argue Wax didn't know there was pewter in that vial, but then where does he get the duralumin from? If he gets it from Dumad's metals, then those are probably going to have pewter too because Dumad needs to reload, and Wax would've been aware of that. At the very least, it's odd to take Dumad's spikes, pewter included, and Dumad's metals, and not even think to check if there's pewter. What then, really, is the point of spiking yourself with pewter anyway if you're not even going to load up on it?

Edited November 20, 2022 by Kasimir

[Treamayne]

Speaking of Wayne, where did the Coinshot spike come from? In Ch 25 we get:

Spoiler

The enemy Coinshot bounded away toward the perimeter of the city, and Wax gave chase with a few Steelpushes. His opponent was talented, maybe even a true Coinshot, augmented by Hemalurgy. He expertly Pushed off the buildings they passed, when newer Coinshots always looked for anchors—like cars—directly beneath them, and forgot about those behind.

Still, Wax managed to gain on the man by anticipating where he would Push. Wax raised Vindication. He didn’t want to kill the Coinshot—they needed answers—but perhaps a hit in the leg or arm would—

The man suddenly blasted into the air. The car below crumpled as if it had been stomped flat, and Wax winced for the poor people inside. The Coinshot launched high into the sky, swift as a bullet, difficult to track against the blinding sun.

Wax landed in a scramble on a nearby rooftop. Rusting hell. That had been …

Duralumin. Damn.

<snip>

Idiot, Wax thought, extinguishing his steel. The enemy must have a spike that let him use bronze to sense when someone was using Allomancy nearby. Wax ducked a little farther along the hallway, and no more bullets came in through the wall. Perhaps the Coinshot would think him dead?

Assuming he’s a natural Coinshot—which might be the case, given his skill—he’s got one spike for bronze and one for duralumin. 

<snip>

Wax and the Coinshot were flung upward in a roar of wind and a sudden burst of g-forces. Wax managed to hang on to the Coinshot for the first part of the ride. But before they reached the peak of their ascent, the man put his hand to Wax’s face, and Wax felt a sudden coldness.

His metal reserve vanished.

The Coinshot had another power. He was a Leecher, with the ability to drain other people’s Allomancy. 

So, do we think he was a Natural Coinshot with Thug, Leecher, Seeker, and Duralumin spikes? Does the Steel spike (Physical quadrant Allomantic abilities according to the Hemalurgy table) giving him Pewter allow Wayne to gain Coinshot abilities based on where it is placed (i. e. Placed in Slot A = Steel, Slot B = Pewter, Slot C = Iron, Slot D = Tin)?

As far as Wax is concerned, I think the Lerasium dust may have given him some abilities and Harmony's other 15 vials had other metals (different per vial) to see if Wax would subconsciously burn them (like Vin was doing before realizing she was Mistborn, or Eland burning Pewter while unconcious after the Lerasium bead).

Edited November 20, 2022 by Treamayne
Links

[Kasimir]

26 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Speaking of Wayne, where did the Coinshot spike come from? In Ch 25 we get:

  Reveal hidden contents

The enemy Coinshot bounded away toward the perimeter of the city, and Wax gave chase with a few Steelpushes. His opponent was talented, maybe even a true Coinshot, augmented by Hemalurgy. He expertly Pushed off the buildings they passed, when newer Coinshots always looked for anchors—like cars—directly beneath them, and forgot about those behind.

Still, Wax managed to gain on the man by anticipating where he would Push. Wax raised Vindication. He didn’t want to kill the Coinshot—they needed answers—but perhaps a hit in the leg or arm would—

The man suddenly blasted into the air. The car below crumpled as if it had been stomped flat, and Wax winced for the poor people inside. The Coinshot launched high into the sky, swift as a bullet, difficult to track against the blinding sun.

Wax landed in a scramble on a nearby rooftop. Rusting hell. That had been …

Duralumin. Damn.

<snip>

Idiot, Wax thought, extinguishing his steel. The enemy must have a spike that let him use bronze to sense when someone was using Allomancy nearby. Wax ducked a little farther along the hallway, and no more bullets came in through the wall. Perhaps the Coinshot would think him dead?

Assuming he’s a natural Coinshot—which might be the case, given his skill—he’s got one spike for bronze and one for duralumin. 

<snip>

Wax and the Coinshot were flung upward in a roar of wind and a sudden burst of g-forces. Wax managed to hang on to the Coinshot for the first part of the ride. But before they reached the peak of their ascent, the man put his hand to Wax’s face, and Wax felt a sudden coldness.

His metal reserve vanished.

The Coinshot had another power. He was a Leecher, with the ability to drain other people’s Allomancy. 

So, do we think he was a Natural Coinshot with Thug, Leecher, Seeker, and Duralumin spikes? Does the Steel spike (Physical quadrant Allomantic abilities according to the Hemalurgy table) giving him Pewter allow Wayne to gain Coinshot abilities based on where it is placed (i. e. Placed in Slot A = Steel, Slot B = Pewter, Slot C = Iron, Slot D = Tin)?

As far as Wax is concerned, I think the Lerasium dust may have given him some abilities and Harmony's other 15 vials had other metals (different per vial) to see if Wax would subconsciously burn them (like Vin was doing before realizing she was Mistborn, or Eland burning Pewter while unconcious after the Lerasium bead).

I think he basically has to have had a Steel spike, because where else would it come from? He could be a natural Coinshot further enhanced by a Steel spike, is what I'm thinking. I don't see it as likely that they managed to make a spike from him—hitting the right bindpoint with Intent at the end of the fight? Eh, forget about it. 

I think you have to steal an attribute with a spike. I don't think we've seen a spike hold multiple Allomantic charges yet. There's a reason they comment about the Set bypassing conventional spike limits. 

I figure they're probably full metal mixtures. What's the harm if he doesn't burn them successfully? And Harmony was backing Wax. Last thing you want is for him to have anything but the right vial in a tight fix. Imagine if there was just one pewter and steel vial—"Wax will be fine as long as he's swallowed that one vial with pewter and not brass"? 

Edited to add: Returning to Vin, Harmony mentions that Ruin lucked on the right combination to make her earring, with her sister being a Seeker. If it's just the placement bindpoint, then it shouldn't really matter. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Kasimir

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I think he basically has to have had a Steel spike

Precisely, if you look at the linked tables, a Steel spike steals "Physical Allomantic Abilities."

What if the charge doesn't say "This stole the ability to burn Pewter" but just says "Physical Allomancy" and the ability you gain is decided by where the spike is placed, not by what the spike stole? Then the same Steel spike that Not Wax was using to burn Pewter was used to give Wayne the ability to burn Steel.

Otherwise, I don't see where Wayne's Coinshot Spike came from

Edited November 20, 2022 by Treamayne

[Kasimir]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Precisely, if you look at the linked tables, a Steel spike steals "Physical Allomantic Abilities."

What if the charge doesn't say "This stole the ability to burn Pewter" but just says "Physical Allomancy" and the ability you gain is decided by where the spike is placed, not by what the spike stole? Then the same Steel spike that Not Wax was using to burn Pewter was used to give Wayne the ability to burn Steel.

I am not using the word Steel like you are. When I say Steel spike, I don't mean, "A spike made out of Steel." I mean a spike containing Allomantic Steel. That's it. 

If Spike placement overrode what was put into the spike, then Ruin never needed to specifically go for Vin. The fact that Vin's sister was a Seeker mattered to his calculus, according to Harmony at end HoA. You are suggesting all Ruin needed to do was to make sure someone pierced Vin's ear with any appropriate Hemalurgic earring. 

You could argue we now know that you can get Allomantic spikes by spiking non-Allomancers. But I think that's not the same as saying only the final bindpoint matters. Even if you think it is the same thing, given the Set had just discovered it and Wax wasn't there to see, it's unlikely Wax knew to do that. It's equally unlikely such a spike was used for Dumad. 

I think the point is that there's flimsy basis for this theory. Everything in the text so far suggests that you spike one ability out and then give it to the recipient. I don't really understand the need to hypothesise something odd is going on with Wayne's spike when we know double spiking exists and could plausibly have been done with Dumad. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Kasimir

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I am not using the word Steel like you are. When I say Steel spike, I don't mean, "A spike made out of Steel." I mean a spike containing Allomantic Steel. That's it. 

If Spike placement overrode what was put into the spike, then Ruin never needed to specifically go for Vin. The fact that Vin's sister was a Seeker mattered to his calculus, according to Harmony at end HoA. You are suggesting all Ruin needed to do was to make sure someone pierced Vin's ear with any appropriate Hemalurgic earring. 

You could argue we now know that you can get Allomantic spikes by spiking non-Allomancers. But I think that's not the same as saying only the final bindpoint matters. Even if you think it is the same thing, given the Set had just discovered it and Wax wasn't there to see, it's unlikely Wax knew to do that. It's equally unlikely such a spike was used for Dumad. 

I think the point is that there's flimsy basis for this theory. Everything in the text so far suggests that you spike one ability out and then give it to the recipient. I don't really understand the need to hypothesise something odd is going on with Wayne's spike when we know double spiking exists and could plausibly have been done with Dumad. 

It's not a theory, so much as conjecture to incite discussion.

The problem is, BoM showed a three spike cap for the Set. TLM Ch 6 showed they were able to get that up to four spikes by using a Trellium spike for one of the spikes (to prevent interference by Harmony). If we have established that Not-Wax had spikes for Leecher, Duralumin, Seeker and Thug - then where did the Coinshot spike come from?

It's most likely that Wax was wrong about him being a natural Coinshot, and he was naturally one of the other four (leecher? seeker?) and therefore had a Coinshot Spike. However, since the text makes such a big deal about Wax deducing that he was a Natural Coinshot with the four spikes previously mentioned - it seems odd that Wax would not have mentioned (thought) about his being wrong previously. . .

Or did he perchance have five spikes (two Trellium Spikes)?

 

[Kasimir]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The problem is, BoM showed a three spike cap for the Set. TLM Ch 6 showed they were able to get that up to four spikes by using a Trellium spike for one of the spikes (to prevent interference by Harmony). If we have established that Not-Wax had spikes for Leecher, Duralumin, Seeker and Thug - then where did the Coinshot spike come from?

That's fair, yes. But TLM Chapter 25 also notes that up to four spikes is new anyway: the last BoM limit, as you say, was a three spike cap:

Quote

A human body could hold up to three spikes without exposing it to Harmony's influence and direct control. But Marasi claimed the enemy had found a way to bypass that limit somehow. Perhaps it was Harmony's blindness.

Incidentally, I've found the quote that I think was being referenced earlier in the thread:

Quote

You've done something to me, Wax thought at Harmony, nudging them to the side and landing on the roof. Odd things have been happening to me all day. Is it an aftereffect of holding the Bands?

No, Harmony said. It is something else. But it didn't work as I'd hoped.

I think this does imply something: the natural inference here is that Harmony had definitely hoped the lerasium dust had made Wax a full, proper, normal Mistborn. Whatever it is, this isn't the case. But I think no theory, even the 'weak Mistborn' one, is unable to explain this: the 'it was a pewter spike' theories all essentially interpret this utterance as saying that it failed to make Wax MIstborn. The 'weak Mistborn' theory explains this utterance by saying that Harmony hoped Wax would've gone full Mistborn, but he doesn't seem to actually have it full strength. 

And I'm reminded of a WoB that states that Mistborn strength can vary and is dependent on the size of the lerasium bead you swallowed:

Quote

Questioner

The size of the metal, does it matter to transfer Allomancy or can it be really really tiny or really really big?

Brandon Sanderson

For Allomancy? Or what, a bead of lerasium? Is that what you're talking about?

Questioner

Yeah, when you're transferring the powers, like to make someone a Mistborn...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah it has to be-- The size of it is going to influence how strong a Mistborn you are.

Questioner

It couldn't be a sliver.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah-- Well it could, you'd just be really weak as a Mistborn.

If Wax breathed in a few fine particles of lerasium dust, I think it's entirely possible that he would be such a weak Mistborn - consistent with the oddities he noticed.

But alright, tangent aside:

The original quote, and in my view, the true Coinshot segment is establishing that the old rules are gone, and for whatever reason, the Set has successfully broken the three metal cap. I've re-read Chapter 25 and haven't seen a point where it's explicitly noted the new hard limit is four spikes. Certainly, if it requires a trellium spike, then the trellium spike has to be holding one of the Allomantic abilities that wasn't steel or duralumin. I'm not sure they'd feel comfortable using a trellium spike while on their way to stop the bomb.

I'm not sure it cries out for explanation: the way I read it is more that Wax is going through sort of the same thought process as Marasi - "He's probably a Coinshot, right? I guess - wow hell he has duralumin, okay, welp, wait, he has bronze? Chromium? Let's hope he doesn't have pewter...oh, of course he does." I don't know it would make a difference because we just don't get a Wax POV from the point he sees Dumad's corpse to the point he and Wayne appear on the ship. I think it's more logical that a rushing Wax doesn't actually go "Oh, so I was wrong, he does have a Coinshot spike after all," because that just breaks up the pacing/flow of the chase, as compared to Wax making a deliberate decision to take the pewter spike, and still not consciously burning pewter, or aware that he can burn pewter.

We subsequently learn that Dumad and Wayne's double were both training with their abilities - I feel like that dents the true Coinshot point a little, as well. Wax is basing that assessment off the fact that Dumad is clearly skilled with his Coinshot skills, which seems to weigh against the possibility Dumad recently received the spike and therefore betrays that by using Steel in an amateur way. But we later learn that both of them were working/training hard to be able to beat Wax and Wayne, largely via Wayne's POV, so doesn't that put a pin in the 'true Coinshot' theory anyway?

That being said, I was curious enough to dig for some Hemalurgy WoBs and my main finding is that it's inconclusive. Check these out:

Quote

Kythis

When you spike somebody, say a full Mistborn, with a steel spike, it could end up with four different charges.  Does it get all four of them it just depends on where you place it?  

Brandon Sanderson

Where you place it it can get all four.  Spiking a full Mistborn wastes a lot of power and the way that it's known, I mean, it doesn't have to, but the way that it's known to do it right now.

Kythis

Would the spike that has all four charges, could you actually reuse it and give a different person a different power, or even the same person a different power?  

Brandon Sanderson

No.  When you first spike. . .

Kythis

It loses all the other ones?

Brandon Sanderson

No.  Where you place the spike.  

Clarified as:

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

So, it seems to imply that the Hemalurgist specifically determines what charge and power the spike gets, dependent on where the spike is placed when first extracting the power. And the way they currently know how to do it (this was a WoR signing, this was in 2014) only allows them to extract one sort of power. This is why it's considered 'wasteful' to spike a Mistborn, because you are forgoing their full power set for just one. (Again, if placement of the charged spike allows you to give the recipient one out of four physical metals, I'm not sure this would be quite as wasteful.) I take the second exchange to be fairly unequivocal that reusing a spike to give a person different powers is prima facie difficult.

I do think the caveat, "The way they know how to do it" implies it might be possible to do so. Again, I think of the fact the Set has just discovered how to make a spike from non-Allomancers without killing anyone. So that part is in flux right now. But given the second exchange, I'm not sure this should be the natural inference for what is going on with Wayne's spike.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Kasimir

[Karger]

This is a kind of dumb answer but maybe the difference just comes down to expertise?  Wax is far more competent with pushing then Vin is.  The other possibility is his feruchemical abilities.  He can make himself more durable by tapping iron and increase his speed once that is released per the conservative of momentum.

[Returned]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

This is a kind of dumb answer but maybe the difference just comes down to expertise?  Wax is far more competent with pushing then Vin is.  The other possibility is his feruchemical abilities.  He can make himself more durable by tapping iron and increase his speed once that is released per the conservative of momentum.

Skill definitely matters, but not so much for the strength of Pushes, which is what natural-Coinshot-plus-Coinshot-spike would influence. But Wax is clearly sort of Mistborn; see the instance in which the out-of-reach metal vial "snaps" into his hand on page 183. It's clearly implied that he Pulled it, and there is nothing suggesting a mundane resolution to that moment. That's also the only reason Harmony would have sent Wax special vials of metals to use-- they have more than just steel in them. Wax can get his own steel with trivial ease. The strongest argument against the Mistborn idea is that Wax isn't described as noticing any other metal reserves in his body, which seems like the kind of thing he would notice and comment on.

But even then that only establishes that Wax would have some degree of ability to burn pewter already and doesn't rule out that he might also have taken a spike granting Allomantic pewter later.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Returned
Clarified the nature of the spike in my last paragraph

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It's most likely that Wax was wrong about him being a natural Coinshot, and he was naturally one of the other four (leecher? seeker?) and therefore had a Coinshot Spike. 

 

The dude was an excellent Seeker - he detected Wax's use of Feruchemy(!), which is supposed to be very difficult. So, maybe this was his native ability and he just trained for years after getting his A-steel spike and proved to be talented. His pewter game was quite mediocre, I felt. He clearly only had it for durability/convenience.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Isilel

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

This is a kind of dumb answer but maybe the difference just comes down to expertise?  Wax is far more competent with pushing then Vin is.  The other possibility is his feruchemical abilities.  He can make himself more durable by tapping iron and increase his speed once that is released per the conservative of momentum.

10 minutes ago, Returned said:

Skill definitely matters, but not so much for the strength of Pushes, which is what natural-Coinshot-plus-Coinshot-spike would influence. But Wax is clearly sort of Mistborn; see the instance in which the out-of-reach metal vial "snaps" into his hand on page 183.

The original Question was how Not-Wax was using all of the Duralumin Steelpushes without Pewter and without killing himself. That was resolved because I had missed the part where Wayne mentions him having Pewter -Enhanced Strength (and what I get for reading that late. . . )

But that answer led to the question of Wayne's Coinshot spike - if the Set's "Cycles" were using four spikes (one Trellium) and Not-Wax had Durlumin, Thug, Seeker and Leecher. . . then where did Wayne get a Coinshot spike?

Quote

But even then that only establishes that Wax would have some degree of ability to burn pewter already and doesn't rule out that he might also have taken a pewter spike later.

A pewter spike would have given him a Physical Feruchemical Power (which is why I have been trying to refer to the spike's material by metal, and the spike's charge by misting/ferring name)

2 minutes ago, Isilel said:

The dude was an excellent Seeker - he detected Wax's use of Feruchemy(!), which is supposed to be very difficult. So, maybe this was his native ability and he just trained for years after getting his A-steel spike and proved to be talented. His pewter game was quite medicre, I felt. He clearly only had it for durability/convenience.

That was one of the possibilities I considered. We also don't know if/how one of the spikes being made of Trellium affects the ability granted by the spike. It could also be that the Seeker spike was Trellium, and that allowed it to detect more varieties of investiture. . .

[Returned]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

A pewter spike would have given him a Physical Feruchemical Power (which is why I have been trying to refer to the spike's material by metal, and the spike's charge by misting/ferring name)

*Sigh* An Allomantic-pewter-granting spike is what I was describing, as I'd hoped context would make clear. I will edit my post above to make it completely explicit, though. I don't know if the forums have coalesced on a standard for discussing Hemalurgic spikes, but since some metals can carry one of multiple powers it seems more succinct to describe them by the power they grant, with exceptions for where the spike's material is the topic of interest. The nickname for the misting/ferring attribute is also a good method.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Returned said:

*Sigh* An Allomantic-pewter-granting spike is what I was describing, as I'd hoped context would make clear. I will edit my post above to make it completely explicit, though.

I thought that was what you meant, but I wasn't positive; and so I felt that verifying was better than assuming. . .

Thank you very much.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAGF

[Returned]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

I thought that was what you meant, but wasn;t positive and felt that verifying was better than assuming. . .

thank you very much.

Of course! Clarity is important, especially when we're getting into the most fiddly details of fictional things. The Cosmere terminology is getting more and more unwieldy over time.

[TheSurvivor00]

On 11/18/2022 at 4:46 PM, Treamayne said:

Does anybody else find it odd that Not-Wax didn't have a Spike granting Pewter? Afterall, he's using Duralumin Steelpushes all over the place, but we know from Vin that:

  Hide contents

WoA Ch 11:

WoA Ch 57

HoA Ch 3:

HoA Ch 72:

 

So, is Hemalurgic Duralumin just weaker, or is something shady going on? The crushed car from Not-Wax's Durlumin push implies it should still cause massive injury without Pewter (or F-Gold) to compensate. . . but he was shown to not be a Bloodmaker and nothing was ever said about a Thug Spike.  Does it perhaps depend on how much Steel or Iron is available when Duralumin "flashes" the metal - we do see Vin use Duralumin-Steel without pewter in HoA Ch 37:

  Reveal hidden contents

 Vin burned duralumin, then Pushed. The horses in front screamed, the improvised weapon scattering them to the ground. The canvas ripped, and the stakes pulled free, but the damage was done—those in front tripped those behind, and men tumbled beside their beasts.

Vin downed another vial to replenish her steel. Then she Pulled, whipping another tent toward her. As it grew close, she jumped, then spun and Pushed the tent toward another group of mounted men behind. 

EDIT: Duh Me - I missed the reference to his Pewter in Wayne's POV Ch 65:

  Hide contents

“Survival,” the man said with a grunt, “of those most worthy. Trell demands that her servants prove themselves. Against adversity. Against society. Against the roles we take. And when there are several who fit the same slot in life … well, only the strongest can survive and be rewarded.”

“Rusts,” Wayne said. “That is one of the most messed-up things I’ve ever heard, mate.”

Not-Wax pried Wayne’s fingers free with pewter-enhanced strength. “It is the way of Autonomy. To find our place in the coming pantheon of rulers, we must be the best versions of ourselves.

 

You also gotta remember, Vin was a small woman, and Not-Wax, if I remember right, was a fully grown adult man, and if I remember correctly from when Vin was learning from Kelsier, he taught her that it depends on the size of the person Pushing for the force of the push. So he would definitely be able to handle it better, but yea having Pewter would definitely help him