Sazed an Evil Genius?

[StanLemon]

Thinking about scenes with Sazed in this book I've started wondering, does Sazed have a long term plan he's keeping hidden? Reading the book most of his scenes he seemed practically impotent and unaware of anything going on, yet several things do seem to go in a way that helps his goal. The Set, even though they were working for Autonomy, did create several advancements in technology from radio communication to motion picture and now to ballistic missiles. The Bands which were under Kandra care mysteriously ended up being drained and are now in the hands of the Malwish who will likely find some use for them to enhance their Fabrial technology. Autonomy's influence in the world was greatly reduced leaving him the only Shard on Scadrial again. And Basin politics are stabilizing.

All of that alone one could say he got very lucky, but then you factor in his lie to Kelsier and that he's squirrelling away Lerasium and seemingly planned for Wax to become a Mistborn it might very well be that things worked out for the most part the way he wanted them to. I'm sure not entirely how he wanted to as he implies he "hoped" more would have happened with Wax and the explosion, and Autonomy is an experienced Shard who likely could have blinded him somewhat. I'm not sure if anyone else got that feeling after the epilogue with Sazed and Kelsier but that's how I ended up feeling after reading that.

[Arby64]

I got the impression that Discord had taken over and that’s why Kelsier no longer saw the shadow behind him that was present in the other scenes with him

[Eternal Khol he/him]

3 hours ago, Arby64 said:

I got the impression that Discord had taken over and that’s why Kelsier no longer saw the shadow behind him that was present in the other scenes with him

Thats what i took away from it too. 

I dont know if its quite as dramatic as "Discord taking over" it def could be, but i do think the fact that it wasn't there that time does indicate that it proably was "in" Sazed. I did get bad vibes from him there. In the last sentence, He doesnt even dismiss that he may one day become the villain.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Eternal Khol

[+Oltux72 he/him]

It seems to me like Sazed would like to avoid Kelsier's methods and he doesn't really like his goals. But at the same time he knows that they may become an, in his eyes unfornate, necessity. So he plans for the case of himself becoming incapacitated or in fact a detriment to Scadrial. And the plan for that case has to be to use the Ghostbloods as defenders of Scadrial. Who else would be there? Kelsier at least has part of the knowledge of a Shard.

[Aradel he/him]

My thought is that Sazed's plan is to create a new sword that won't break on him. One that isn't mortal.

I think that Discord isn't a problem Sazed is trying to suppress, Discord is an Avatar he's choosing to create that he can play off of and against. Like the original Ruin and Preservation but split across different lines.

Also: he is absolutely lying to Kelsier and probably Marsh. Telling them means they'd try to stop him.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Aradel

[agrabes]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:20 AM, Oltux72 said:

It seems to me like Sazed would like to avoid Kelsier's methods and he doesn't really like his goals. But at the same time he knows that they may become an, in his eyes unfornate, necessity. So he plans for the case of himself becoming incapacitated or in fact a detriment to Scadrial. And the plan for that case has to be to use the Ghostbloods as defenders of Scadrial. Who else would be there? Kelsier at least has part of the knowledge of a Shard.

Agreed - I think Sazed does have a long term plan that he is keeping secret from everyone, but in especially Kelsier.  He knows Kelsier would essentially usurp Harmony's position as "leader/god" of Scadrial if he could and so he does what he can to avoid that fate.  I think we can see this because he very clearly set up the red vial in advance to make Wayne a Mistborn.  He knew what was going to happen and set things up for success according to his own plans, passing on as little knowledge as possible to people not directly in his control (AKA everyone but Kandra).

On 11/17/2022 at 3:44 AM, Arby64 said:

I got the impression that Discord had taken over and that’s why Kelsier no longer saw the shadow behind him that was present in the other scenes with him

I didn't get that impression - didn't Kelsier say that he sometimes saw the shadow, but not always?  I think the scene was meant to say this is the "good" and fully in control Harmony/Sazed because there's no shadow, and even this version is skeptical of Kelsier and wants to keep him at arm's length.  I think if it was meant to say the shadow had taken control, Kelsier would have made an observation that something seemed different about Sazed/Harmony, that he seemed darker, etc.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Sazed’s plan worked perfectly. He keeps saying that he placed people and that he motivated the Ghostbloods in unseen ways. Sazed’s future sight is extremely powerful but extremely subtle. IMO Sazed did as well as Preservation did in Era 1. Sazed probably doesn’t want people to be aware of how strong his forsight is. 

[Nesh he/him]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Sazed’s plan worked perfectly. He keeps saying that he placed people and that he motivated the Ghostbloods in unseen ways. Sazed’s future sight is extremely powerful but extremely subtle. IMO Sazed did as well as Preservation did in Era 1. Sazed probably doesn’t want people to be aware of how strong his forsight is. 

I'm not so sure about that, unless you know, Sazed was lying about Bavadin getting the better of him, reacting too slowly, not knowing he needed Wayne, etc.  I think this actually was a close run thing.  Kell has also said that Sazed has been acting erratic.  I'd say our old friend is very much in trouble.

[teknopathetic he/him]

40 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I'm not so sure about that, unless you know, Sazed was lying about Bavadin getting the better of him, reacting too slowly, not knowing he needed Wayne, etc.  I think this actually was a close run thing.  Kell has also said that Sazed has been acting erratic.  I'd say our old friend is very much in trouble.

Well how could preservation have known he needed Vin and Eland in particular? It seems the future sight is very "put things where they need to go" without knowing exactly how that "preserves" the world. Is Era 1 considered a close call, or is that basically exactly what happened with Preservation getting the better of a Shard that was "outsmarting" him?

Edited November 18, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Nesh he/him]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Well how could preservation have known he needed Vin and Eland in particular? It seems the future sight is very "put things where they need to go" without knowing exactly how that "preserves" the world. 

See, Preservation did know it needed Vin, she was his chosen successor, and obviously knew about Sazed because the Terris prophecies came from somewhere.  Yhat whole thing was far more intricate and well planned.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think he's playing up the extent to which he is truly helpless to encourage humanity to look after themselves.  He expressed to Wax in an earlier book that he's been over-coddling humanity and as a result they haven't developed quite as fast technologically as they should have.  That, plus some of Autonomy's powers investing on his planet has possibly made him slightly more Autonomy-like.

I think he's playing a more sneaky Cultivation-like game.  Instead of allowing humanity to assume Harmony or his agents will solve the really big problems (both the kandra and Marsh present themselves as practically useless to our heroes this time around), he subtly maneuvers his agents into place and allows them to preform well or choose to heroically sacrifice themselves.

Now that we know Harmony clearly can and does lie (to Kel about lerasium, and then again promising that he never tells a lie), I think the really big question this book was who was he lying to about how well the situation was under control?  Was he lying to Kel by implying he had things under control?  Or was he lying to Wax/Wayne to maneuver them into position to do what needed to be done (knowing that a sacrifice would be required)?  

e: If you want to get really conspiratorial (not sure if I believe these but maybe) all of Harmony's actions could be viewed a harsher "ends justify the means" light.  Maybe he was the hidden hands that moved Blood Tam.  Maybe Lessie was justified in being outraged at Harmony's manipulation of Wax. Maybe he similarly "encouraged" Melaan to dump Wayne and go on a distant mission, knowing that the cut emotional ties would make Wayne more willing to sacrifice himself.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Subvisual Haze

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, Nesh said:

See, Preservation did know it needed Vin, she was his chosen successor, and obviously knew about Sazed because the Terris prophecies came from somewhere.  Yhat whole thing was far more intricate and well planned.

I am not so sure Sazed did any worse than Leras. They both seemed to use a very similar strategy and both managed to win through placing people in the right spot with the right resources for the right people. Sazed says again and again that his strength is putting people in the right position, and that's what Leas did too. Much like Hoid though, it seems to know where to be but not exactly why to be there. Ans Sazed also said he had a bigger hand in the Ghostbloods than they knew in terms of placement. and quite possibly, doing anything more would have drawn Autonomy in further and faster. Sazed played it smart IMO.

I mean, Kelsier just happened to be over the ocean and unable to get around right when this went down? That for sure is Sazed moving someone away from the hotline so that Kelsier didn't mess it up or take over the situation for his own benefit. Everyone was exactly where they needed tone, and Sazed admits that placement is his best power. 

IMO, we should be even more impressed by Sazed if he was truly blinded for a lot of it but still had things placed correctly. That means he can function  even when blinded, which to me is very impressive. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by teknopathetic

[LiftisaDragon]

He could be playing a not dissimilar (sorry) game to Taravangian - a behind-the-scenes identity swap that substantially increases his agency. May allow him to put all these “threats” to Scandrial on their heels for once 

[AleStaar he/him]

Please see my signature for the Cosmere works I've read :3

 

“Harmony puts people where they need to be, but then they must act. It is his way.” - VenDell

I think Sazed was indeed a genius in TLM. Throughout the Era 2 books, we saw that Sazed has future sight that is extremely powerful but extremely subtle. He put drawings and plans for Elendel's city planning in the Words of Founding - where he accounted for water flow from the Basin, streets wide enough to accommodate for the future invention of cars, and accommodation for the future invention of trains. He wrote hints of the future discovery of railways, trains, electricity, and aviation. The story consistently mentions his knowledge of future tech while accounting for Southern Scadrial's achievements - the radio, the image projector, film, transportation or teleportation with the Metallic Arts, etc.

He knew about the Set's long-term plans in each book, so he foiled the respective plans and engineered their downfall with only a few pieces. I don't think he played the game perfectly. I think he was genuine about being blinded and not knowing he needed Wayne. But I think he was so adaptable, good at seeing into the future, and so good at describing the future to the point he was virtually managing different universes. He succeeded in cultivating the sword that would overcome his pain and cripple the Set's military. 7 years ago he didn't foresee Wayne would be the hero, but I think that is an example of his adaptability. Over the next 7 years, and possibly with a vague sense spanning decades, he still cultivated Wayne into the perfect Slider who would detonate the Set's bomb. Marasi started out thinking criminal justice was only a numbers game, and Sazed cultivated her into the potential Governor of Elendel who knows the key to improving the world is to trust and understand others.

He implied he secretly mobilized the Ghostbloods, Tobal, Maraga, and Marsh into helping Wax's group. The Ghostbloods didn't even know Marasi was his agent, at least not to the extent as Wax and Wayne.

Earlier comments talked about what Leras/Preservation did in the trilogy, so I'll talk about that. Yes, Preservation's game was long-spanning, incredible, and brilliant. He knew he needed Vin, Elend, Sazed, and many other pieces. And as far as we can tell, he knew why he needed them. But I think we're overlooking one reason it was so great - Ruin was terrible at looking into the future. He manipulated many pieces. But Preservation foresaw purposes that Ruin couldn't foresee, placed tools and clues far in advance, and cultivated greater plans for Ruin's pawns. Ruin's only resources for most of history were text alteration, whispers, Mist alteration, and Hemalurgic spikes. Ruin either underestimated certain paths (Elend sacrificing himself to get Vin to murder-kill), or straight up couldn't see many paths. Ruin couldn't see far into the length of Preservation's tree or see into its wide branches. 

Preservation VS Ruin was a Batman Gambit that took place over thousands of years, orchestrated by a chess grandmaster who could see the future VS a crafty grandmaster with a tiny bit of future sight. 

Sazed VS Autonomy in TLM was a future sight war between an amputated chess rookie playing with a blindfold for a year VS an opponent with ages of experience playing chess who is extremely good at seeing the future. Even then, Sazed shattered Autonomy's decades of planning, armies, Hemalurgic knowledge, and industry through a series of precise strikes set into motion prior.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2024 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

8 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Please see my signature for the Cosmere works I've read :3

 

“Harmony puts people where they need to be, but then they must act. It is his way.” - VenDell

I think Sazed was indeed a genius in TLM. Throughout the Era 2 books, we saw that Sazed has future sight that is extremely powerful but extremely subtle. He put drawings and plans for Elendel's city planning in the Words of Founding - where he accounted for water flow from the Basin, streets wide enough to accommodate for the future invention of cars, and accommodation for the future invention of trains. He wrote hints of the future discovery of railways, trains, electricity, and aviation. The story consistently mentions his knowledge of future tech while accounting for Southern Scadrial's achievements - the radio, the image projector, film, transportation or teleportation with the Metallic Arts, etc.

He knew about the Set's long-term plans in each book, so he foiled the respective plans and engineered their downfall with only a few pieces. I don't think he played the game perfectly. I think he was genuine about being blinded and not knowing he needed Wayne. But I think he was so adaptable, good at seeing into the future, and so good at describing the future to the point he was virtually managing different universes. He succeeded in cultivating the sword that would overcome his pain and cripple the Set's military. 7 years ago he didn't foresee Wayne would be the hero, but I think that is an example of his adaptability. Over the next 7 years, and possibly with a vague sense spanning decades, he still cultivated Wayne into the perfect Slider who would detonate the Set's bomb. Marasi started out thinking criminal justice was only a numbers game, and Sazed cultivated her into the potential Governor of Elendel who knows the key to improving the world is to trust and understand others.

He implied he secretly mobilized the Ghostbloods, Tobal, Maraga, and Marsh into helping Wax's group. The Ghostbloods didn't even know Marasi was his agent, at least not to the extent as Wax and Wayne.

Earlier comments talked about what Leras/Preservation did in the trilogy, so I'll talk about that. Yes, Preservation's game was long-spanning, incredible, and brilliant. He knew he needed Vin, Elend, Sazed, and many other pieces. And as far as we can tell, he knew why he needed them. But I think we're overlooking one reason it was so great - Ruin was terrible at looking into the future. He manipulated many pieces. But Preservation foresaw purposes that Ruin couldn't foresee, placed tools and clues far in advance, and cultivated greater plans for Ruin's pawns. Ruin's only resources for most of history were text alteration, whispers, Mist alteration, and Hemalurgic spikes. Ruin either underestimated certain paths (Elend sacrificing himself to get Vin to murder-kill), or straight up couldn't see many paths. Ruin couldn't see far into the length of Preservation's tree or see into its wide branches. 

Preservation VS Ruin was a Batman Gambit that took place over thousands of years, orchestrated by a chess grandmaster who could see the future VS a crafty grandmaster with a tiny bit of future sight. 

Sazed VS Autonomy in TLM was a future sight war between an amputated chess rookie playing with a blindfold for a year VS an opponent with ages of experience playing chess who is extremely good at seeing the future. Even then, Sazed shattered Autonomy's decades of planning, armies, Hemalurgic knowledge, and industry through a series of precise strikes set into motion prior.

 

 

 

 

 

Please don't necro threads, if you want to continue a discussion, you can make a new topic and link this one to it. 

[AleStaar he/him]

9 hours ago, Xiahida said:

Please don't necro threads, if you want to continue a discussion, you can make a new topic and link this one to it. 

Oh okay. I will remember that.