Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 5 hours ago, Heretic333 said: But Era 3 is a different story. Airplanes. Jets. Shielding. Nuclear Weapons.. Not looking good for Roshar. Unless the entire population of Roshar develops surge binding. Era 3 takes place after SA 10. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Just because he's pov of back 5 books, deosn't mean he's alive - there was a WoB about it. We don't know if he gets to be ok, or that would be just flashbacks. How's his plot spoiled by WoK Prime if he's dead? Spoiler Phantine By the way, the chapters from Way of Kings Prime were pretty interesting when I read them in the [Altered Perceptions] anthology. I assume the rest of the book at the moment is still pretty spoilery... about where in The Stormlight Archive series would you consider it 'caught up' enough to do something with the rest of WoK'? Brandon Sanderson Unfortunately, one of the ways I made the series work was by splitting the character into two groupings, and doing half in the first five and half in the second. This means that WoK Prime doesn't spoil anything for Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan. But it has huge spoilers for books six and seven, with Jasnah and Taln. So it will be a while. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e4919 3 hours ago, alder24 said: The forces that fight illusions? Very effective. And amaram forces were infused with sprens of Odium. Thrill flares aggressiveness and will to fight, not mind control anyone. And Thrill is mindless, it doens't matter for him whom you fight as long as you fight. That Koloss army would be even more dangerous to Roshar if controled by Thrill. But Thrill is on the bottom of the ocean, so he's not coming back. If he takes over them and the Scadrian army is closer they will attack them. And you know he isn't coming back because... 3 hours ago, alder24 said: For now fabrials are still mostly limited to rich and wealthy, and provide only simple tools like heating, lifting - no mass production with usage of fabrials, no motors, no machinery. That's not industrial revolution. That is a stepping point to it, but they are still behind. Even spanreeds are still limited to mostly nobels. I didn't try to be dismissive about fabrials. I wanted only to point out how limited in application and usage they are for now. They are mostly in hands of Navani and rich people. Fabrials will be a powerhouse, and will cause industial revolution, but they are not there yet. Close, but not there. Fabrials are common enough that most families have a heating fabrial, and even enlisted army men can afford to send messages via spanreed. Spanreeds are easily an equivalent of late stage telegrams as they stand right now. And not only that but they're getting cheaper, the have breeding programs making larger gemhearts(RoW 745), and fabrial techniques are spreading. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They even have non bloody "revolution" when worksers overthrown unpopular governor in SoS. Can anyone on Roshar do the same? The Azish have an established right to protest for a month where they can make known any grievance, and the government can't interfere. People of fourth nahn or higher can leave their city which decreases the rights and powers of their former citylord. They have a lot of influence. And that's not to mention, that on Roshar, anyone, be they a king, or an urchin beggar, can overnight be thrust into the highest and most powerful groups in society. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Presumption of innocence. Right for fair court case. Right for the court representation/attorneys - Those alone would solve all problems that Kaladin and Moash faced. Wouldn't be nice if Tien wasn't send to war for some puny revange? They have the right of inquest. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: More than 300 years, they have it during Final Empire. Roshar can soulcast it, but tell that to the people in remote village, who never seen Soulcaster. Or people stuck in Kholinar siege, where most were starving even when there was a soulcaster making food for them. There are limits of what soulcasters can do. Canned food has no limits and can last for years, while soulcasted food for days/weeks. That food has to cross multiple planets to get there, and then you have to not only have enough to feed your army, but also a significant portion of the population? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Just connect? Intent doesn't matter here? I would say intent is important. So discovering it by accident is unlikely. Vin discovered it on accident. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I would say Roshar has no knowledge of Hemalurgy, mainly because most Scadrial don't have that (just because they heard of it or read about it in books left by Sezed doesn't provide them knowledge how it works as Sazed suppressed it). Knowledge about Allomancy and Feruchemy is common on Scadrial, similarly Surgebinding is geting more common knowledge on Roshar. If every Scadrian can learn the dozens of bindpoints along with metals then Roshar is aware of it. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And we're back to playing ping-pong with responses again. When I said these discussions can go for 73 pages I wasn't kidding. 3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: This is my mistake I guess, I didn’t realize that Wax, Wayne and Miles were the only twinborn in the world during Era2. Could you point me to where this is explained? I also wasn’t aware that we had census data to figure out that there were only 20000 metalborn on Scadrial. I was assuming that the Scadrial had at least tens of millions of inhabitants of which at least hundreds of thousands would be metalborn. There are 15m people in the Basin, with mistings being 1 in a thousand(BoM 190) Spoiler wackyHair What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)? Brandon Sanderson Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two. Phantine Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right? Brandon Sanderson Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers. Phantine How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series? Brandon Sanderson Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close. faragorn Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world. Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466 3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: So Bondsmith mind control is purely fan fic. No, it literally says Connection allows you to do it. 3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: This is a matter of opinion I suppose. The people on Roshar have basically none of what we would consider basic human rights. You might not notice it because most of our viewpoint characters are wealthy, noble or powerful. Um, no they do. Azish right to protest, Vorin rights of inquest, travel, learning, etc. 3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Why wouldn’t Scadrial trade tech? It’s not like they can just make more. What do they have spren would want? All of their tech is dependent on Scadrian power sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No, it literally says Connection allows you to do it. Um, no they do. Azish right to protest, Vorin rights of inquest, travel, learning, etc. What do they have spren would want? All of their tech is dependent on Scadrian power sources. It doesn’t literally say that a Bondsmith can mind control people with spikes. We do however know that a Shard can’t do that, even the Shard that creates the magic system and the people that use it. Show me something written or said by Brandon Sanderson that says a Bondsmith can mind control spike people. As I said, this appears to be a difference of opinion. Those “rights” are extremely limited in scope and applied selectively. Unless you think what happened with Moash’s family was totally cool and fair.. Not being a spren, I couldn't begin to guess. Probably anything that they thought was interesting. Medallions maybe? Information? Lies? Truths? Spren like weird stuff, I’m sure scadrial has something to offer. Didn’t Wyndle have a chair garden or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 10 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: It doesn’t literally say that a Bondsmith can mind control people with spikes. We do however know that a Shard can’t do that, even the Shard that creates the magic system and the people that use it. Show me something written or said by Brandon Sanderson that says a Bondsmith can mind control spike people. Um, shards literally can do that. That's basically the entire basis of Marsh in HoA. 11 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: As I said, this appears to be a difference of opinion. Those “rights” are extremely limited in scope and applied selectively. Unless you think what happened with Moash’s family was totally cool and fair.. Elhokar would have had them executed, the right of inquest blocked him from doing that, the only reason they died anyway is because Elhokar extralegally kept them in jail without inquest. 13 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Not being a spren, I couldn't begin to guess. Probably anything that they thought was interesting. Would a human buy anything they thought was interesting? 14 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Medallions maybe? They can't use them. 14 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Information? Lies? Truths? About what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Um, shards literally can do that. That's basically the entire basis of Marsh in HoA. Elhokar would have had them executed, the right of inquest blocked him from doing that, the only reason they died anyway is because Elhokar extralegally kept them in jail without inquest. Would a human buy anything they thought was interesting? They can't use them. About what? I specified above that the three spike rule would be in effect. I am familiar with Mistborn. Thank you for being condescending. So what you’re saying is that they don't have any rights and can be killed by the upper class at any time for any reason. That is generally how people choose to buy things that aren’t necessities. They were just an example, and how do you know? Literally anything, it feels like you’re just being contrary for the sake of filling the thread with useless statements. You willfully ignored that I mentioned three spikes in order to continue a pointless line of argument. You literally gave an example of how they have no rights and tried to present it as the opposite. You asked a question that I already said I lack the context to answer and used it to pretend that you made a point. Clearly this conversation is pointless, so I’m out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuldak Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: If he takes over them and the Scadrian army is closer they will attack them. And you know he isn't coming back because... It doesn't "take over" people, from all descriptions it is a mindless force that does what is effectively a widespread riot of bloodlust, which I agree would normally have the potential to take over koloss/kandra/sufficiently spiked people, however it is a mindless force, it doesn't have a real will to direct them, it would just have them do what they were doing anyway, which is rage filled brutal combat. However it is currently sunk to the bottom of the ocean trapped in a perfect gemstone inside an aluminum box by the same group of people that is now fighting this hypothetical war. If you are saying that it is now free and able to contribute you are not arguing in good faith. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Fabrials are common enough that most families have a heating fabrial, and even enlisted army men can afford to send messages via spanreed. Spanreeds are easily an equivalent of late stage telegrams as they stand right now. And not only that but they're getting cheaper, the have breeding programs making larger gemhearts(RoW 745), and fabrial techniques are spreading. Fabrials are by no means common outside of the wealthy, and things like soulcasters are on a similar level of rarity of shardblades. There is a massive gap between the POV characters and the "common people." Almost all of the POV characters live in close proximity to or are themselves highborn nobles. Most common people live very, very different lives. While I don't agree that they are all living in abject poverty awaiting the dream of freedom from some invading army that some seem to be suggesting, neither are they well off or educated. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: They have the right of inquest. Lighteyes and higher Nahn darkeyes, sure, I would doubt that this covered a majority of the Alethi population though. The impression I get from Lirin's statement that him being second Nahn, and having the right of inquest, was that the other darkeyes in the town, being of lower Nahn, did not have this right. I could be wrong, but I haven't been able to find anything saying at which Nahn which rights were granted. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No, it literally says Connection allows you to do it. Please stop assuming that Dalinar or any bondsmith will have mastery of every power or ability that has any connection component whatsoever. You have to know that is approaching the levels of absurdity of Wax replicating his splitting of harmonium, and mass producing lerasium mistborn. 16 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: So what you’re saying is that they don't have any rights and can be killed by the upper class at any time for any reason. I think in this instance what they are saying is that rich and powerful people will often find ways to exploit the laws regardless of the system, nation, or even world. The fact that one nobleman exploited the legal system through bribes/favors, does not mean that nobles can run around killing anyone they like with impunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 woah this is a long thread. I think in the long run, either Odium wins and Roshar has a super army of Odiums servants aka Scadrial is screwed. Or Dalinar wins and Roshar has the most battle hardened army ever to fight a military on Scadrial, which hasnt seen war in hundreds of years. aka Scadrial is screwed. On top of this roshar has better healing abilities so in diseases that spread between diferent groups when they interact. Roshar is better prepared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: I specified above that the three spike rule would be in effect. I am familiar with Mistborn. You never once mentioned a three spike rule. 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: So what you’re saying is that they don't have any rights and can be killed by the upper class at any time for any reason. That can happen under any system, or do I need to list the numberous human rights violations of literally every country? 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: That is generally how people choose to buy things that aren’t necessities. So you buy anything that you see that looks interesting? 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: They were just an example, and how do you know? Well, they can't bond other spren, so why would they be able to use this Investiture? Now if Ishar perfects his process of bringing them into the physical they might be able to. 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Literally anything, it feels like you’re just being contrary for the sake of filling the thread with useless statements. You asked a question that I already said I lack the context to answer and used it to pretend that you made a point. Clearly this conversation is pointless, so I’m out. I find the fact that you called me pointing out that shards can mind control spiked people condescending in the same breath you made all of these statements rather amusing. 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: You willfully ignored that I mentioned three spikes in order to continue a pointless line of argument. When did you even mention three spikes? 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: You asked a question that I already said I lack the context to answer and used it to pretend that you made a point. If you can't answer, why should I assume that there is one? 1 hour ago, Kuldak said: It doesn't "take over" people, from all descriptions it is a mindless force that does what is effectively a widespread riot of bloodlust, which I agree would normally have the potential to take over koloss/kandra/sufficiently spiked people, however it is a mindless force, it doesn't have a real will to direct them, it would just have them do what they were doing anyway, which is rage filled brutal combat. However it is currently sunk to the bottom of the ocean trapped in a perfect gemstone inside an aluminum box by the same group of people that is now fighting this hypothetical war. If you are saying that it is now free and able to contribute you are not arguing in good faith. You do realize that was in response to multiple Scadrian factions, with known hatred of each other, one of whom was literally willing to let five million of the other faction die if they didn't get what they wanted, uniting right? 1 hour ago, Kuldak said: Fabrials are by no means common outside of the wealthy, and things like soulcasters are on a similar level of rarity of shardblades. There is a massive gap between the POV characters and the "common people." Almost all of the POV characters live in close proximity to or are themselves highborn nobles. Most common people live very, very different lives. While I don't agree that they are all living in abject poverty awaiting the dream of freedom from some invading army that some seem to be suggesting, neither are they well off or educated.. Regular soldiers, like not Kaladin, but regular rank and file can afford to send messages via spanreed. TEN years before this battle occurs, with fabrials actively becoming cheaper. 1 hour ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said: On top of this roshar has better healing abilities so in diseases that spread between diferent groups when they interact. Roshar is better prepared Roshar doesn't have many native diseases. And even if they did the natural Investiture in people will largely protect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: How's his plot spoiled by WoK Prime if he's dead? Is that canon? I didn't read it but I heard that Kaladin take Sharblade... 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: If he takes over them and the Scadrian army is closer they will attack them. And you know he isn't coming back because... From all places they could hide him, bottom of the ocean inside aluminum box is as good as inaccessible. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Fabrials are common enough that most families have a heating fabrial, and even enlisted army men can afford to send messages via spanreed. Spanreeds are easily an equivalent of late stage telegrams as they stand right now. And not only that but they're getting cheaper, the have breeding programs making larger gemhearts(RoW 745), and fabrial techniques are spreading. Most RICH families. Spanreeds are still not common among poor people. - from all of the people in Heartstone, only Laral has spanreeds, because she is noble and can afford it, rest can't. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The Azish have an established right to protest for a month where they can make known any grievance, and the government can't interfere. People of fourth nahn or higher can leave their city which decreases the rights and powers of their former citylord. They have a lot of influence. Aizsh are quit good on bureaucratic level, to the extreme. Leaving the city is very bad example, as everyone that is not a slave always could do it and relocate, no matter medieval or ancient times. That's not really the right. Very influential to leave the city ruled by noble to another city ruled by noble - nowhere you have any saying about what to do. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And that's not to mention, that on Roshar, anyone, be they a king, or an urchin beggar, can overnight be thrust into the highest and most powerful groups in society. Considering Roshar's population, compared to spren's - that is extremely rare to occur. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: They have the right of inquest. And how it helped Moash grandparents? How their killers were punished? Was justice served or they were allowed to cause more harm and devastate another family? Great example. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That food has to cross multiple planets to get there, and then you have to not only have enough to feed your army, but also a significant portion of the population? Or, hear me out, they can build a factory ON Roshar and provide Roshar not only with canned food, but with new workplace. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Vin discovered it on accident. By using emotional allomancy. And didn't she earlier experimented this on OreSoon? Dalinar can use connection on 1000 different ways, so intent will be pretty important or he just might connect to them and learn their language or vision of the past and gain nothing useful. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Vorin rights of inquest, travel, learning, etc. So were schools for countryside kids in Vorin culture even mentioned? I don't remember tbf. 3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: When I said these discussions can go for 73 pages I wasn't kidding. Pong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, alder24 said: Is that canon? I didn't read it but I heard that Kaladin take Sharblade... Kaladin's part isn't, but apparently Jasnah and Taln's plot have stayed similar enough he considers Prime spoilers for books 6 and 7. 7 minutes ago, alder24 said: From all places they could hide him, bottom of the ocean inside aluminum box is as good as inaccessible. Any Heavenly one Windrunner, or Skybreaker that knew where it was could get it out. 8 minutes ago, alder24 said: Most RICH families. Spanreeds are still not common among poor people. - from all of the people in Heartstone, only Laral has spanreeds, because she is noble and can afford it, rest can't. Is Laral the only one who has one? Or just the only one we see? 9 minutes ago, alder24 said: Leaving the city is very bad example, as everyone that is not a slave always could do it and relocate, no matter medieval or ancient times. That's not really the right. Very influential to leave the city ruled by noble to another city ruled by noble - nowhere you have any saying about what to do. The nobles title, and rank is tied to the population of their city, if enough people leave they could be removed from their position. And there are severl cities without lords. 11 minutes ago, alder24 said: Considering Roshar's population, compared to spren's - that is extremely rare to occur. More likely than an urchin becoming govenor on Scadrial. 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: And how it helped Moash grandparents? How their killers were punished? Was justice served or they were allowed to cause more harm and devastate another family? Great example. Don't know were you live, or what rights your government claims to care about, but I garuntee you that they violate those regularly. In the US we have a right protecting us from unwarranted searches and seizure, but that doesn't stop the government from recording our activities. We also have protection against cruel or unusual punishment, but look up "Enhanced Interrogation techniques" sometime. Or MK Ultra for that matter. Scadrian governments will be no better. 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: Or, hear me out, they can build a factory ON Roshar and provide Roshar not only with canned food, but with new workplace. Great, where is your electricity coming from? Where is your food coming from, and how are you protecting your factory from ceaseless raids? 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: By using emotional allomancy. And didn't she earlier experimented this on OreSoon? Dalinar can use connection on 1000 different ways, so intent will be pretty important or he just might connect to them and learn their language or vision of the past and gain nothing useful. There are just as many hemalurgic bindpoints, so if Scadrial know how to do Hemalurgy, he knows how to do this. 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: So were schools for countryside kids in Vorin culture even mentioned? I don't remember tbf. You go to the ardents and they will teach you any trade you desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Any Heavenly one Windrunner, or Skybreaker that knew where it was could get it out. Still disagree on this one, you already tried and you won't convinced me. Ocean is just to insanely vast to found small box in it - we can't find a plane in it, with all the modern tech. 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Is Laral the only one who has one? Or just the only one we see? Form OB chapters it looks like that - only Laral provides Spanreeds but Kal mention Ardent might have one. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The nobles title, and rank is tied to the population of their city, if enough people leave they could be removed from their position. And there are severl cities without lords. And if enough people gather in a city without lord, that city will be the new lord's property, because it ALL belongs to the Archprince and King. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: More likely than an urchin becoming govenor on Scadrial. Yeah, that's a good thing, we don't want criminals to rule the country. Criminals that were elected to rule just becasue they didn't die are not the best candidats for rulers. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Don't know were you live, or what rights your government claims to care about, but I garuntee you that they violate those regularly. In the US we have a right protecting us from unwarranted searches and seizure, but that doesn't stop the government from recording our activities. We also have protection against cruel or unusual punishment, but look up "Enhanced Interrogation techniques" sometime. Or MK Ultra for that matter. Scadrian governments will be no better. Scadrial government already proved it's value, when people arested arrested corrupt together with police. Because there were laws agains corruptions, that could be executed. Roshar doesn't have much of those. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Great, where is your electricity coming from? Where is your food coming from, and how are you protecting your factory from ceaseless raids? Plant oil, local farming and animals, guardposts and people wills to stay on invaders side as they provide more than Roshar. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: There are just as many hemalurgic bindpoints, so if Scadrial know how to do Hemalurgy, he knows how to do this. Again, scenario provided to us by @SwordNimiForPresident doesn't require whole population of Scadrial to know Hemalurgy, but just 1000 people. That's not all Scadrial. Not to mention not every bindspot is filled with spike. We were also clearly showed in TLM and Era 1 that few spikes are not enough even for a Shard to mind control someone. Talk to him yes, not mind control. Now hemalurgy is even more restricted. So no, Dalinar doesn't know how to do it. He might heard the name Hemalurgy, and it's about Ruin and powers, but not that with connection he can break them. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: You go to the ardents and they will teach you any trade you desire. Only if your local villige Ardent have that knowledge. And you're proving my point - on Roshar YOU have to find a teacher willing and knowledgeable enough to teach you, it is not provided to you by government. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted December 21, 2022 Report Share Posted December 21, 2022 I really tried not to post, but your reply was both factually incorrect, and intentionally dumb. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: You never once mentioned a three spike rule. 8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: I was assuming that they each only got three spikes so this doesn’t change anything. 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: So you buy anything that you see that looks interesting? Obviously not, as that would require an absurd amount of wealth. What are you even trying to argue here? Are you taking the position that people don't make non essential purchases based on their interests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuldak Posted December 22, 2022 Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: You do realize that was in response to multiple Scadrian factions, with known hatred of each other, one of whom was literally willing to let five million of the other faction die if they didn't get what they wanted, uniting right? Between Scadrial and Roshar, Roshar is MUCH, MUCH less likely to unify. In fact we KNOW that Roshar wouldn't unify when faced with a massive invasion threatening to wipe them out, because exactly that happened, and the only nations to unify were Alethkar, Herdaz (Both of which are currently occupied nations ruling in name only from remote location), Thaylenah, Azir, Jah Kaved and Kharbranth (both of which went in with the express purpose of betraying the alliance). 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Regular soldiers, like not Kaladin, but regular rank and file can afford to send messages via spanreed. TEN years before this battle occurs, with fabrials actively becoming cheaper. The existence of a some groups wealthy enough to afford a spanreed (in a warcamp more populated that most cities on Roshar, containing a large portion of the nation's wealth and nobility) willing to use it to make money off common soldiers is hardly indicative of their availability to regular people. Common people on earth could pay to have a photograph taken of them in 1850, but actual widespread ownership of cameras didn't happen until well into the 1900s. 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Kaladin's part isn't, but apparently Jasnah and Taln's plot have stayed similar enough he considers Prime spoilers for books 6 and 7. Prime is still not canon, and should not be used as evidence to confirm a theory. 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Any Heavenly one Windrunner, or Skybreaker that knew where it was could get it out. No, even if they knew exactly where it was (which they most definitely do not) the pressure and temperature in the depths would quickly drain any stormlight (or voidlight) they brought. Without direct shardic intervention, WoB, or direct canonization, Nergaoul should be considered inaccessible. Nergaoul showing up is even less likely than a fully charged Bands of Mourning showing up on Scadrial's side. 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: More likely than an urchin becoming govenor on Scadrial. I am willing to bet, based on percent of population, that more people have risen from the lowest classes to the high classes in the last 300 years on Scadrial than on Roshar. As in they themselves moved up, not their family through generations of work. 2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: There are just as many hemalurgic bindpoints, so if Scadrial know how to do Hemalurgy, he knows how to do this. Knowing one (or several) hemalugic bindpoints that have been documented and thoroughly tested by others, is not the same as not only discovering, but mastering an entirely new way to use a power that only you have, when you are not even that familiar with it in the first place. Dalinar is not omniscient, nor does he know everything (in truth he knows almost nothing) about Bondsmith powers and how they interact with powers and beings he does not even know exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Still disagree on this one, you already tried and you won't convinced me. Ocean is just to insanely vast to found small box in it - we can't find a plane in it, with all the modern tech. They know where it is, and stone can guide them. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Form OB chapters it looks like that - only Laral provides Spanreeds but Kal mention Ardent might have one. If Laral gave him one why would he look for others. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And if enough people gather in a city without lord, that city will be the new lord's property, because it ALL belongs to the Archprince and King. And the basin all belongs to the Basin's government, there is no difference. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Yeah, that's a good thing, we don't want criminals to rule the country. Criminals that were elected to rule just becasue they didn't die are not the best candidats for rulers. "You're poor that automatically makes you a criminal" 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Scadrial government already proved it's value, when people arested arrested corrupt together with police. Because there were laws agains corruptions, that could be executed. Roshar doesn't have much of those. And the fact that Roshon was given the strictest demotion we have ever heard of is completely ignored. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Plant oil, local farming and animals, guardposts and people wills to stay on invaders side as they provide more than Roshar. If they actually valued anything that Scadrial had to offer the fused would have popular support. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Again, scenario provided to us by @SwordNimiForPresident doesn't require whole population of Scadrial to know Hemalurgy, but just 1000 people. My proposal doesn't require everyone on Roshar to know how to do it, just a small handful. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Only if your local villige Ardent have that knowledge. And you're proving my point - on Roshar YOU have to find a teacher willing and knowledgeable enough to teach you, it is not provided to you by government. Thank you. 1. On Scadrial you have to go to the school, it doesn't come to you. 2. Willingness has nothing to do with it, you have a right to learn, the ardents are required to teach you. And teachers knowledge is just as much or a restriction on Scadrial. 3. It is provided by the government, who do you think is taking care of the ardents. 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: I really tried not to post, but your reply was both factually incorrect, Huh, so you did. My bad I missed that. 2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Obviously not, as that would require an absurd amount of wealth. What are you even trying to argue here? Are you taking the position that people don't make non essential purchases based on their interests? They can satisfy their interests with what they already can acquire. Scadrial can't offer them technology or weapons, as those require Scadrial's power and aren't useful for them anyway. So the only thing they have going for them is sheer uniqueness, which they get all the time. 21 minutes ago, Kuldak said: Between Scadrial and Roshar, Roshar is MUCH, MUCH less likely to unify. In fact we KNOW that Roshar wouldn't unify when faced with a massive invasion threatening to wipe them out, because exactly that happened, and the only nations to unify were Alethkar, Herdaz (Both of which are currently occupied nations ruling in name only from remote location), Thaylenah, Azir, Jah Kaved and Kharbranth (both of which went in with the express purpose of betraying the alliance). Scadrial will not be unified by Era 3, Roshar very well might be by the end of SA 10 which will happen first. 22 minutes ago, Kuldak said: The existence of a some groups wealthy enough to afford a spanreed (in a warcamp more populated that most cities on Roshar, containing a large portion of the nation's wealth and nobility) willing to use it to make money off common soldiers is hardly indicative of their availability to regular people. If it's just the rich in the warcamps who have them, who are the soldiers writing too? 25 minutes ago, Kuldak said: Common people on earth could pay to have a photograph taken of them in 1850, but actual widespread ownership of cameras didn't happen until well into the 1900s. And before that the common people could not afford to have their picture taken. 26 minutes ago, Kuldak said: Prime is still not canon, and should not be used as evidence to confirm a theory. ... Brandon literally said that it contains spoilers for Taln and Jasnah during book 6 and 7. Spoiler Phantine By the way, the chapters from Way of Kings Prime were pretty interesting when I read them in the [Altered Perceptions] anthology. I assume the rest of the book at the moment is still pretty spoilery... about where in The Stormlight Archive series would you consider it 'caught up' enough to do something with the rest of WoK'? Brandon Sanderson Unfortunately, one of the ways I made the series work was by splitting the character into two groupings, and doing half in the first five and half in the second. This means that WoK Prime doesn't spoil anything for Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan. But it has huge spoilers for books six and seven, with Jasnah and Taln. So it will be a while. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e4919 Meaning that Taln is alive at that time. Not sure what better evidence you want. 29 minutes ago, Kuldak said: No, even if they knew exactly where it was (which they most definitely do not) the pressure and temperature in the depths would quickly drain any stormlight (or voidlight) they brought. Without direct shardic intervention, WoB, or direct canonization, Nergaoul should be considered inaccessible. Nergaoul showing up is even less likely than a fully charged Bands of Mourning showing up on Scadrial's side. Considering we know next to nothing about the bands of mourning, but we know that pressure can be manipulated by the surge of Adhesion, I think you have it the other way around. 31 minutes ago, Kuldak said: I am willing to bet, based on percent of population, that more people have risen from the lowest classes to the high classes in the last 300 years on Scadrial than on Roshar. As in they themselves moved up, not their family through generations of work. Considering that 100% of Scadrial improved in 300 years, because it's literally impossible to get worse without extinction, you would be right. But considering that in the past 8 years Roshar went from: officers can afford spanreeds, and heating fabrials are invented. To: common soldiers can afford to send messages, teleportation, powered flight, common heating fabrials, water attractors, alerter fabrials, half-shards, force redirection, pumps etc. And Scadrial was only able to go from from: pictures and trains. To: Radio, short range missiles, and video. With Autonomy's direct intervention, I think it's safe to say Roshar is progressing quicker. 38 minutes ago, Kuldak said: Knowing one (or several) hemalugic bindpoints that have been documented and thoroughly tested by others, is not the same as not only discovering, but mastering an entirely new way to use a power that only you have, when you are not even that familiar with it in the first place. Dalinar is not omniscient, nor does he know everything (in truth he knows almost nothing) about Bondsmith powers and how they interact with powers and beings he does not even know exist. Being able to steal the Nahelbond, something almost No Scadrian even knows exists, and is part of Connection which even fewer of them understand, is just as unlikely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted December 22, 2022 Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 12 hours ago, Kuldak said: am willing to bet, based on percent of population, that more people have risen from the lowest classes to the high classes in the last 300 years on Scadrial than on Roshar. As in they themselves moved up, not their family through generations of work. Wayne did 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: They know where it is, and stone can guide them. They don't know where it is - Ocean current can drift it hundreds of kilometers away until it hits the bottom, kilometers Inter water. It's still in aluminum, so the stone can have troubles in guiding them - and we don't know if Stonewards have exactly the same manifestation of surge like Venli. Most likely not, as Venli is a Listener. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: If Laral gave him one why would he look for others. ... He asked before Latał showed up. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And the basin all belongs to the Basin's government, there is no difference. You can't be serious? It don't, there is whole senate, laws and constitution restricting What they can do. Government doesn't possess the entire ground or cities within the Basin, they can't force their own mayor to rule a city. This is not a feudalistic Monarchy like on Roshar. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: "You're poor that automatically makes you a criminal" Soryy, I was unfamiliar with the word and it translated as a "rascal/thief" - Wayne went from being among the poorest to the richest and help many other like inventors to climb. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And the fact that Roshon was givent he strictest demotion we have ever heard of is completely ignored. Dude killed 2 people and what he get was remote domain to rule over, girl to marry and house and money. Great punishment. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: If they actually valued anything that Scadrial had to offer the fused would have popular support. And they do, among Singers. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: My proposal doesn't require everyone on Roshar to know how to do it, just a small handful. And how would they know that, considering the fact that on Scadrial only elite group of loyal soldier trained by Death himself would know how to do Hemalurgy? 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: 1. On Scadrial you have to go to the school, it doesn't come to you. 2. Willingness has nothing to do with it, you have a right to learn, the ardents are required to teach you. And teachers knowledge is just as much or a restriction on Scadrial. 3. It is provided by the government, who do you think is taking care of the ardents. On Scadrial you have to go, on Roshar you can go - difference. On Scadrial teachers have to know stuff required by the government to met programs of education created by government. Religion figures? Teachings of Arden's are limited to what their holy superiors agree to teach. But I admitt, I'm not much familiar with what poor people are teach on Roshar. Quotes? 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Scadrial will not be unified by Era 3, Roshar very well might be by the end of SA 10 which will happen first. Roshar is in active war fueled by hatred with many fractions and even with distrust among the same fraction. Scadrial has tension, yes, and won't unify with north and south. But we're not talking about SA10 but SA 5. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And before that the common people could not afford to have their picture taken. Kind of - photography was invented in 1839. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: ... Brandon literally said that it contains spoilers for Taln and Jasnah during book 6 and 7. Reveal hidden contents Phantine By the way, the chapters from Way of Kings Prime were pretty interesting when I read them in the [Altered Perceptions] anthology. I assume the rest of the book at the moment is still pretty spoilery... about where in The Stormlight Archive series would you consider it 'caught up' enough to do something with the rest of WoK'? Brandon Sanderson Unfortunately, one of the ways I made the series work was by splitting the character into two groupings, and doing half in the first five and half in the second. This means that WoK Prime doesn't spoil anything for Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan. But it has huge spoilers for books six and seven, with Jasnah and Taln. So it will be a while. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e4919 Meaning that Taln is alive at that time. Not sure what better evidence you want. But it's still not a canon. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Considering we know next to nothing about the bands of mourning, but we know that pressure can be manipulated by the surge of Adhesion, I think you have it the other way around. The band can be easily fill again. You just need like 32 people. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Considering that 100% of Scadrial improved in 300 years, because it's literally impossible to get worse without extinction, you would be right. But considering that in the past 8 years Roshar went from: officers can afford spanreeds, and heating fabrials are invented. To: common soldiers can afford to send messages, teleportation, powered flight, common heating fabrials, water attractors, alerter fabrials, half-shards, force redirection, pumps etc. And Scadrial was only able to go from from: pictures and trains. To: Radio, short range missiles, and video. With Autonomy's direct intervention, I think it's safe to say Roshar is progressing quicker. And how many of that things are in possession of the remote villagers? 2 spanreeds. And that's all. 11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Being able to steal the Nahelbond, something almost No Scadrian even knows exists, and is part of Connection which even fewer of them understand, is just as unlikely. Considering that the Hemalurgic metals are literally made to steal any kind of connection and it is already all known, I would say it's easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted December 22, 2022 Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 1 hour ago, alder24 said: The band can be easily fill again. You just need like 32 people. Considering they are unable to refill regular medallions, and not even Malwish know what the hell Bands are, I doubt they can. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: And how many of that things are in possession of the remote villagers? 2 spanreeds. And that's all. And how many telegraphs are in Roughs? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Considering that the Hemalurgic metals are literally made to steal any kind of connection and it is already all known, I would say it's easy. You still need to hit correct bind point to steal specific things, see HoA and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12677 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7711 . So somehow Scadrial would have to figure out which bind points corresponds to Nahel bond, something they have exactly zero experience with. Additionally Terris still don't really understand even Feruchemy connection powers, and Hemalurgy is even less known (some Set scientists, and whoever Marasi showed the book), and no one has even demonstrated they know how to use it beyond stealing attributes and Allomancy/Feruchemy, which still took either Shard-provided knowledge (TLR, Set) or years of experiments (Set, Spook). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 4 hours ago, alder24 said: They don't know where it is - Ocean current can drift it hundreds of kilometers away until it hits the bottom, kilometers Inter water. It's still in aluminum, so the stone can have troubles in guiding them - and we don't know if Stonewards have exactly the same manifestation of surge like Venli. Most likely not, as Venli is a Listener. Her Transformation isn't different, and the stones said Radiant before they realized she was a singer, so their powers should be similar enough. Additonally Khriss notes that Stoneshaping has divination properties. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: ... He asked before Latał showed up. Which was in response to his request. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: You can't be serious? It don't, there is whole senate, laws and constitution restricting What they can do. Government doesn't possess the entire ground or cities within the Basin, they can't force their own mayor to rule a city. This is not a feudalistic Monarchy like on Roshar. Eminent Domain means that in practice there is no difference. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Soryy, I was unfamiliar with the word and it translated as a "rascal/thief" I keep forgetting you aren't a native speaker, you're so good. And it can refer to a thief depending on context, but it can also refer to someone, specifically children who live on the streets. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Dude killed 2 people and what he get was remote domain to rule over, girl to marry and house and money. Great punishment. He didn't kill anyone, he got two people falsely imprisoned. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: And they do, among Singers. Because they aren't human. Scadrians won't convince any singers, because they too, are human. And the humans won't accept them, as seen by how almost an entire cityleft the fused control as soon as they got a chance. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: And how would they know that, considering the fact that on Scadrial only elite group of loyal soldier trained by Death himself would know how to do Hemalurgy? Wax and Marasi both gave spikes and notes to the university. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: On Scadrial you have to go, on Roshar you can go - difference. On Scadrial only children can go, on Roshar it doesn't mater your age. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: On Scadrial teachers have to know stuff required by the government to met programs of education created by government. On Roshar every Ardent is required to learn certain skills. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Religion figures? Teachings of Arden's are limited to what their holy superiors agree to teach. It's a religious right that requires the ardents to teach them. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: But I admitt, I'm not much familiar with what poor people are teach on Roshar. Quotes? I don't have the book on me but it would be somewhere around WoR 260, where Kaladin is entering the sparring grounds to watch Adolin and Renarin. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Roshar is in active war fueled by hatred with many fractions and even with distrust among the same fraction. Scadrial has tension, yes, and won't unify with north and south. But we're not talking about SA10 but SA 5. The Malwish were willing to let half the Basin die if they didn't get the bands of Mourning. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: But it's still not a canon. The canon status of Prime is irreverent. It doesn't matter what Taln's plot is, only that there is one, meaning he survives to SA 6. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: The band can be easily fill again. You just need like 32 people. Then why can they only make medallions with 3 abilities? 4 hours ago, alder24 said: And how many of that things are in possession of the remote villagers? 2 spanreeds. And that's all. You know that for certain? And how many radios are in tinweight? Probably none, and it's much larger than Hearthstone is. 5 hours ago, alder24 said: Considering that the Hemalurgic metals are literally made to steal any kind of connection and it is already all known, I would say it's easy. No, it really isn't. It's known that it steals Connection, but f-drualumin can store multiple types of Connection I suspect there is a different bindpoint for each type, and the one for Nahel Bond is certainly unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted December 22, 2022 Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 3 hours ago, therunner said: Considering they are unable to refill regular medallions, and not even Malwish know what the hell Bands are, I doubt they can. Unable to refill regular medallions? Quotes? And how does weight medallions works when they are just tapped and filled? 3 hours ago, therunner said: And how many telegraphs are in Roughs? They have telegraphs on Scadrial? They have trains, industry, gun production and Wax was able to acquire full, expensive and specialized laboratory equipment. Electricity might even already get to Roughs at the end of TLM. 3 hours ago, therunner said: You still need to hit correct bind point to steal specific things, see HoA and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12677 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7711 . So somehow Scadrial would have to figure out which bind points corresponds to Nahel bond, something they have exactly zero experience with. Additionally Terris still don't really understand even Feruchemy connection powers, and Hemalurgy is even less known (some Set scientists, and whoever Marasi showed the book), and no one has even demonstrated they know how to use it beyond stealing attributes and Allomancy/Feruchemy, which still took either Shard-provided knowledge (TLR, Set) or years of experiments (Set, Spook). I agree that would be the hard part. But as it is said in the WoB - make a spike gun and try until it worked. Marsh has the biggest knowledge from all of them and he might have some idea. Set did not have his help. 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Her Transformation isn't different, and the stones said Radiant before they realized she was a singer, so their powers should be similar enough. Additonally Khriss notes that Stoneshaping has divination properties. Still calling her Radient is not wrong, she is a Radient but not Stonewards. 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Which was in response to his request. He asked if Ardets have them, and then laral interrupted. So at least two sets of spanreeds in a town - very little 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: I keep forgetting you aren't a native speaker, you're so good. And it can refer to a thief depending on context, but it can also refer to someone, specifically children who live on the streets. Good? Nah, I just for spelling mistakes after I write a post. There is too many of them in my opinion. But thanks, as long as it's understandable it's good. Again Wayne went from the bottom to the top! 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: He didn't kill anyone, he got two people falsely imprisoned. Which resulted in his death, because his best friend the king/prince make sure they will never cause any troubles. You can use an example of law privileging rich people as a example of rights pore people "have". 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Because they aren't human. Scadrians won't convince any singers, because they too, are human. And the humans won't accept them, as seen by how almost an entire cityleft the fused control as soon as they got a chance. I don't need singers, just humans. Scadrials need to convince only humans on Roshar. Human to human. 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Wax and Marasi both gave spikes and notes to the university. Trellium spikes as they were unknown. Plus regular spikes - I'm not sure about that. It doesn't mean that university will know about plans of invasion of Roshar. 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: On Scadrial only children can go, on Roshar it doesn't mater your age. University... 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The Malwish were willing to let half the Basin die if they didn't get the bands of Mourning. Yes, I said tensions exist, and they are having an arms race. But are not in war yet. 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Then why can they only make medallions with 3 abilities? Because making more is hard. And Bands already have all of them. That's why Malwish need them - to study and make better medallions. But Bands are already there, ready to be filled. 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: You know that for certain? And how many radios are in tinweight? Probably none, and it's much larger than Hearthstone is. Radios non - trains are in Roughs. And other new equipment as I mention above 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No, it really isn't. It's known that it steals Connection, but f-drualumin can store multiple types of Connection I suspect there is a different bindpoint for each type, and the one for Nahel Bond is certainly unknown. Soo try and error? Again, I admitt this is hard part, but this can be done. Most likely in heart or around. Spikes guns! One will work and then they will know. Or experiment on Scadrial before invasion on spiking connection - Ghostbloods can provide them with Aviars as they are basically similar to Nahel Bond I just discovered that i can separate long quotes by pressing enter 2x. I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuldak Posted December 22, 2022 Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: ... Brandon literally said that it contains spoilers for Taln and Jasnah during book 6 and 7. Reveal hidden contents Phantine By the way, the chapters from Way of Kings Prime were pretty interesting when I read them in the [Altered Perceptions] anthology. I assume the rest of the book at the moment is still pretty spoilery... about where in The Stormlight Archive series would you consider it 'caught up' enough to do something with the rest of WoK'? Brandon Sanderson Unfortunately, one of the ways I made the series work was by splitting the character into two groupings, and doing half in the first five and half in the second. This means that WoK Prime doesn't spoil anything for Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan. But it has huge spoilers for books six and seven, with Jasnah and Taln. So it will be a while. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e4919 Meaning that Taln is alive at that time. Not sure what better evidence you want. You have no reference to what the spoiler is. It's quite possible that what is spoilery is seeing a PoV on Braize, and you don't need a living Taln to have flashbacks to his time on Braize. Using Prime to confirm your theory is like using a RAFO answer to confirm it, "He RAFO'd that means that something is there, so clearly this is true" 16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: But considering that in the past 8 years Roshar went from: officers can afford spanreeds, and heating fabrials are invented. To: common soldiers can afford to send messages, teleportation, powered flight, common heating fabrials, water attractors, alerter fabrials, half-shards, force redirection, pumps etc. And Scadrial was only able to go from from: pictures and trains. To: Radio, short range missiles, and video. With Autonomy's direct intervention, I think it's safe to say Roshar is progressing quicker. Common soldiers being able to afford to send messages is in no way indicative at all of the relative availability of spanreeds to the general population, and likely works in conjunction with standard message delivery. I can afford to ride a train, it does not mean I can afford to own a train, or that there is a train stop at every home. The same goes for most of those fabrials, I can't remember any examples of a "common" person owning a fabrial who wasn't either wealthy themselves, or in the direct employ of someone or some group with significant wealth. Scadrial also has a technological equivalent to pretty much all of those with the exception of Teleportation, which you can't even credit to modern Roshar, as nobody knows how to recreate them. And by and large are more available to the common people than their fabrial equivalent. Most of which was done without any involvement from Autonomy. On a side note has it been established how much or little knowledge Autonomy provided, I had the impression that Autonomy was big on, "Do it on your own without help", and providing meaningful instruction on inventions seems contradictory to that. Back to Fabrials, half of those you listed were also devised by one person (or by their think tank), and that person is now in a major ethical conflict, as the sibling REALLY does not like modern fabrials, and considers them imprisoning of "living" beings. You don't think that is going to affect her thought process and cause her to rethink her previous methodology? Also the major centers of Fabrial development were in Alethkar and Jah Keved, both of which are currently in the hands of the singers, who have a much different relationship with spren, and would also likely have moral objections to trapping them in gems. 16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Being able to steal the Nahelbond, something almost No Scadrian even knows exists, and is part of Connection which even fewer of them understand, is just as unlikely. You wouldn't need to specifically steal the Nahel bond to disable radiants, Aluminum spikes remove ALL powers. While the spren could re-initiate the bond soon after, if this was happening in a fight, the sudden loss of power would likely result in the radiant's death. Not saying it would be easy, especially on some of the orders, but if you have someone like a steel ferring, it could in fact be a viable way to deal with some radiants. "When in doubt, jam an aluminum spike in it" would not necessarily be a bad policy when fighting opponents with magical powers, known or otherwise, so long as they are willing to cross the moral line and put hemalurgic warfare is on the table. On a separate note, I am curious what the effects of a leecher grenade would have on a spren. Leecher grenades drain investiture in an area, Spren are pure investiture, would that potentially harm or even kill a spren directly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES Posted December 22, 2022 Report Share Posted December 22, 2022 On 12/21/2022 at 4:31 PM, Frustration said: You never once mentioned a three spike rule. That can happen under any system, or do I need to list the numberous human rights violations of literally every country? So you buy anything that you see that looks interesting? Well, they can't bond other spren, so why would they be able to use this Investiture? Now if Ishar perfects his process of bringing them into the physical they might be able to. I find the fact that you called me pointing out that shards can mind control spiked people condescending in the same breath you made all of these statements rather amusing. When did you even mention three spikes? If you can't answer, why should I assume that there is one? You do realize that was in response to multiple Scadrian factions, with known hatred of each other, one of whom was literally willing to let five million of the other faction die if they didn't get what they wanted, uniting right? Regular soldiers, like not Kaladin, but regular rank and file can afford to send messages via spanreed. TEN years before this battle occurs, with fabrials actively becoming cheaper. Roshar doesn't have many native diseases. And even if they did the natural Investiture in people will largely protect them. I didnt mean native diseases I was refeing to the fact that diseases from other planets might be more deadly to someone w/o the immune system to cope with the disease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted December 23, 2022 Report Share Posted December 23, 2022 8 hours ago, therunner said: You still need to hit correct bind point to steal specific things, see HoA and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12677 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7711 . So somehow Scadrial would have to figure out which bind points corresponds to Nahel bond, something they have exactly zero experience with. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think bind points are for granting powers. To steal them you need to drive the spike through the victims heart with the proper intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted December 23, 2022 Report Share Posted December 23, 2022 1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think bind points are for granting powers. To steal them you need to drive the spike through the victims heart with the proper intent. It is for both stealing and granting powers (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12677), see example of Spook getting Pewter. The Pewterarm was not stabbed through the heart. And even then, there are multiple bind points even on the heart itself, so they would still need to know which one to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werewolff Studios Posted December 23, 2022 Report Share Posted December 23, 2022 6 hours ago, Kuldak said: On a separate note, I am curious what the effects of a leecher grenade would have on a spren. Leecher grenades drain investiture in an area, Spren are pure investiture, would that potentially harm or even kill a spren directly? It might harm them, but I suspect that a spren would be too Investiture dense. We know that a Leecher can prevent a Shardblade from being summoned, but it would be extremely hard to Leech away a Shardblade itself. I'd imagine the grenade would run out of metal well before the spren was drained. Relevant WOB. Quote Questioner If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power... Questioner Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tglassy Posted December 23, 2022 Report Share Posted December 23, 2022 (edited) Since the entire argument for Roshar winning seems to hinge on this 10 year gap, Imma say Scadrial wins after the 10 year gap because I say Roshar is in pieces after Stormlight 5. Like, I think the whole thing blows up and there is no Roshar anymore. And you can't argue with me, cause it hasn't happened yet, and the only mention of a Rosharan peoples is people with red hair (likely horneaters) lost in Shadesmar fleeing something terrible. So in the ten year gap, Roshar is gone. No more stormlight. Scadrial wins. The back five books are the remnants of Roshar trying to find a new home. And how funny all these "Roshar wins" arguments become if I'm right. Edit: It's too far back, but Feruchemical Pewter stores excess Strength. There is a WoB that says if you were to burn pewter and store the EXCESS strength in a Pewtermind, it wouldn't increase your muscle mass when you burned the metalmind, cause that's now how A-Pewter, which is what you are storing, works. So you burn a-pewter and store the excess in a Pewtermind. Then burn the pewtermind and get 10x the power you put into it, without the muscle increase, and store that, then eat that metalmind and get 10x THAT amount, ad infinitum, and there you have it. Effectively infinite strength without infinite musclemass. And there only ever needs to be one pewter compounder. Edited December 23, 2022 by Tglassy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tglassy said: Since the entire argument for Roshar winning seems to hinge on this 10 year gap, Imma say Scadrial wins after the 10 year gap because I say Roshar is in pieces after Stormlight 5. Like, I think the whole thing blows up and there is no Roshar anymore. And you can't argue with me, cause it hasn't happened yet, and the only mention of a Rosharan peoples is people with red hair (likely horneaters) lost in Shadesmar fleeing something terrible. So in the ten year gap, Roshar is gone. No more stormlight. Scadrial wins. The back five books are the remnants of Roshar trying to find a new home. And how funny all these "Roshar wins" arguments become if I'm right. Oh, but we know for a fact Roshar still exists because the Ghostbloods themselves tell us it is and that they can't operate there without danger. SP 4 Spoiler Sigzil mentions Roshar exists at that point, which is near Era 4 SotD 2 Spoiler And we know stormlight and Radiants still exist because we see them in the Sixth of the Dusk 2 preview, which takes place during era 4. Next time you want to be snarky at least get your facts straight. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: They have telegraphs on Scadrial? I think they use them in AoL. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: They have trains, industry, gun production and Wax was able to acquire full, expensive and specialized laboratory equipment. Electricity might even already get to Roughs at the end of TLM. Wax had to order his equipment from Elendel and had to wait months for it to get to him. During TLM electricity is only available in large cities, even with the additional two year epilogue I doubt it would have reached the roughs. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: I agree that would be the hard part. But as it is said in the WoB - make a spike gun and try until it worked. How much experience do you have with guns? Hitting center mass of a target is the point beyond which training isn't worth it, and hitting a very specific region of the heart of a moving target would be next to impossible. And is duralumin even effective as a bullet? Remind me to look into that. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Marsh has the biggest knowledge from all of them and he might have some idea. Set did not have his help. They might have, Brandon said the Set interrogated someone who didn't want to share with them Spoiler BTill232 Where and how did the Set learn about Hemalurgy initially? Hemalurgy did not seem to be common knowledge, at least to Wayne and Marasi when given the book by Marsh, but the Set seems to know all about it anyway. Brandon Sanderson So, yes, it was not common knowledge. There was some help from Autonomy on this, but it also involved the interrogation of somebody on-world that did not want to be interrogated. And then a whole lot of experimentation. They had years to play with this. They didn't come right out of the gate knowing exactly how to do it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15952 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Still calling her Radient is not wrong, she is a Radient but not Stonewards. It isn't wrong, but they seemed to think that was enough at first. And besides Khriss says Stoneshaping has divination properties. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Again Wayne went from the bottom to the top! Yes, he did, but it's easier on Roshar 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Which resulted in his death, because his best friend the king/prince make sure they will never cause any troubles. You can use an example of law privileging rich people as a example of rights pore people "have". And we know for a fact being in prison killed them? They were already old according to Moash, they might have died anyway. The only confirmable crime was false imprisonment. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't need singers, just humans. Scadrials need to convince only humans on Roshar. Human to human. Which you won't get. As seen by how almost an entire city decided to leave the Fused as soon as an opportunity presented itself. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: University... Which you have to pay for. Ardents are free. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, I said tensions exist, and they are having an arms race. But are not in war yet. Given the current trajectory Roshar won't be at war by the end of SA 5 either. 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Because making more is hard. And Bands already have all of them. That's why Malwish need them - to study and make better medallions. But Bands are already there, ready to be filled. So if they need to study then how would they know how to refill them? 11 hours ago, alder24 said: Soo try and error? Again, I admitt this is hard part, but this can be done. Most likely in heart or around. Spikes guns! One will work and then they will know. Or experiment on Scadrial before invasion on spiking connection - Ghostbloods can provide them with Aviars as they are basically similar to Nahel Bond You would have to spike the human the aviary had bonded to, and I don't think sacrificing your top operatives is a good idea 10 hours ago, Kuldak said: You have no reference to what the spoiler is. It's quite possible that what is spoilery is seeing a PoV on Braize, and you don't need a living Taln to have flashbacks to his time on Braize. Using Prime to confirm your theory is like using a RAFO answer to confirm it, "He RAFO'd that means that something is there, so clearly this is true" Have you read Prime? There is no PoV of Braize. Nor are their any flashbacks from Taln. 10 hours ago, Kuldak said: Common soldiers being able to afford to send messages is in no way indicative at all of the relative availability of spanreeds to the general population, and likely works in conjunction with standard message delivery. I can afford to ride a train, it does not mean I can afford to own a train, or that there is a train stop at every home. The same goes for most of those fabrials, I can't remember any examples of a "common" person owning a fabrial who wasn't either wealthy themselves, or in the direct employ of someone or some group with significant wealth. Trains are a bad analogy. It wouldn't be cost effective to have a train stop at everyone's home, and I doubt many people would want it. As for availability, when Dalinar burned the Rift he said that most officers had one, and by RoW most enlisted men can afford to send messages with one. In ten more years I expect most people to have at least one. 10 hours ago, Kuldak said: Scadrial also has a technological equivalent to pretty much all of those with the exception of Teleportation, which you can't even credit to modern Roshar, as nobody knows how to recreate them. And by and large are more available to the common people than their fabrial equivalent. Which they weren't able to make until after Roshar had theirs. 10 hours ago, Kuldak said: Most of which was done without any involvement from Autonomy. On a side note has it been established how much or little knowledge Autonomy provided, I had the impression that Autonomy was big on, "Do it on your own without help", and providing meaningful instruction on inventions seems contradictory to that. Autonomy did most of it. In SoS Harmony says that the Basin should have radio by now and Wax has no idea what he's talking about. In BoM we see our first Radio, in the hands of the Set, and Wax has no idea what it is. In BoM Vendell mentions moving pictures, in TLM Marasi sees one, once again in the possession of The Set, and claims that is the first time she saw one. Later on Telsin says Autonomy is pushing her towards discovery, showing her the next steps in their development. And in the epilogue Kelsier says Autonomy shares technology with her people all the time. 10 hours ago, Kuldak said: Back to Fabrials, half of those you listed were also devised by one person (or by their think tank), and that person is now in a major ethical conflict, as the sibling REALLY does not like modern fabrials, and considers them imprisoning of "living" beings. You don't think that is going to affect her thought process and cause her to rethink her previous methodology? Also the major centers of Fabrial development were in Alethkar and Jah Keved, both of which are currently in the hands of the singers, who have a much different relationship with spren, and would also likely have moral objections to trapping them in gems. Actually some were made by the guild in Theylanah, which is noted even by Navani as being important. And Navani isn't going to give up Fabrials. 10 hours ago, Kuldak said: You wouldn't need to specifically steal the Nahel bond to disable radiants, Aluminum spikes remove ALL powers. While the spren could re-initiate the bond soon after, if this was happening in a fight, the sudden loss of power would likely result in the radiant's death. Not saying it would be easy, especially on some of the orders, but if you have someone like a steel ferring, it could in fact be a viable way to deal with some radiants. "When in doubt, jam an aluminum spike in it" would not necessarily be a bad policy when fighting opponents with magical powers, known or otherwise, so long as they are willing to cross the moral line and put hemalurgic warfare is on the table Radiants don't have power of their own, it comes through their spren, so it would require a duralumin spike to steel the bond. 7 hours ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said: I didnt mean native diseases I was refeing to the fact that diseases from other planets might be more deadly to someone w/o the immune system to cope with the disease I know, I already address it earlier in the thread. But here's the WoB. Spoiler Luke Beartline Along the lines of BioChromatic Breath being akin to a person's soul, how would a Shardblade react to someone who does not have any Breath, would it cut them like an inanimate object? Brandon Sanderson No. Remember, one of the things with Breath is I consider Breath to be a part of someone's soul, but it is the extra part that the Cosmere has that non-Cosmere doesn't have. I don't know how far I want to lean into this, but there is definitely a part of me that thinks that Drabs, people who have given up their breath on Nalthis, are just like people from our world. That's what they are, that if we went to the Cosmere we would all be Drabs. Even on planets that aren't Nalthis, where you can't take part of that and give it away and things like that, people are invested. They are invested generally more than here. Why do I do this? There's a couple reasons. One, it's really convenient for some narrative reasons. A lot of books I'm writing are these kind of action-adventure stories, and can human beings actually take the punishment that is delivered, let's say to Adolin in the end of Oathbringer? *noncommital negative sounds* He doesn't come off well from that, but could a human being really take that? I go back and forth. Humans are capable of some pretty incredible feats, particularly with adrenaline driving them, but my kind of blanket answer is everyone in the Cosmere has got a bit more Investiture; everyone's got something like Breath. Nalthians have something kind of extra special because they can use it in different ways, but everybody's got something like that. It's leading to the fact that for instance, I highlighted this in the books, this part is canon: There are things about Rosharans that make it so that a lot of diseases have trouble getting a foothold. You do not have the bubonic plague on Roshar. You could maybe say this is because they are not living in close enough proximity to mammals for diseases to hop species as happens on our planet, which is a pretty valid point. Things that affect a horse or a cow (a lot of different diseases from cows come to us), things that affect a cow are much more likely to be able to affect a human than something that affects a chull being able to affect a human. Totally valid, but I also think that there is something more going on here. This allows me to do fantasy stories where... In Warbreaker we don't have to be worrying about the next outbreak of smallpox, which legitimately they probably would have to be worrying about. It means that, while this is kind of a trope that people, trope is the wrong term, but that people in the past did not have as bad as teeth as we assume that we do because they did not eat the levels of sugars and starches that we do. Investiture also in the Cosmere means that you're not going to... Dalinar probably would not have a full set of teeth, even without being punched in the face and stuff, if he were a human from Earth. But on Roshar he's got just a little bit extra vitality, a little bit extra something, just like everyone on the planet, that is making him a little tougher and making him a little more disease resistant and some of these things. It makes the stories more fun for me to tell and also gives us some suspension of disbelief on some of these things. You do not have to worry about smallpox outbreaks on most planets. You do have to worry about catching the curse of the Elantrian disease and being thrown into a prison city, but smallpox, not as big of a deal. Adam Yeah, but you don’t have to worry about that too much anymore. Brandon Sanderson No, but I'm saying you could have to worry about things like that. Magical diseases, totally on the board, but the big plague they're dealing with in Roshar is the common cold that got brought across by some of the members of Seventeenth Shard, and that's going to die out pretty quickly. They will get over it and their immune system is... The common cold has come over multiple times before for reasons like that, colds just from another planet. Roshar, they've got three Shards. Basically if you want something like this to happen you go to a planet that's not quite as highly Invested where they might have a few more diseases, you pick one up, you bring it, and it spreads a little bit but then it dies off. That sort of thing happens a lot in the Cosmere. You do not have to worry about during the space age that people are going to be bringing lots of diseases across planets. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14746 Edited December 23, 2022 by Frustration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted December 23, 2022 Report Share Posted December 23, 2022 11 hours ago, therunner said: It is for both stealing and granting powers (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12677), see example of Spook getting Pewter. The Pewterarm was not stabbed through the heart. And even then, there are multiple bind points even on the heart itself, so they would still need to know which one to hit. The wording of the question makes it to open ended to know what Brandon’s answer means. The questioner ask “if I hit the right bind point”, but the heart is the only bind point, so the answer is still yes. As for Spook, here’s the text from the book. Quote “for the man with the sword rammed his weapon straight through his friend’s back, piercing his heart and driving the weapon directly into Spook’s chest.” Excerpt From The Mistborn Trilogy Brandon Sanderson https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-mistborn-trilogy/id412008210 This material may be protected by copyright. It explicitly says that the spike pierced his heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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