Scadrial vs. Roshar post Lost metal.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The humans that came to Roshar were so covered in ash and burns that the singers thought they had skin patterns. (See Raboniel's grandmother's description.)They went from really low oxygen, high temperature environment, and instantly stepped into Shinovar, with its high oxygen.

I don't understand what you mean. They didn't live for thousands of years in burning hell with low oxygen conditions made by surgebinding,  until they biologically adapted to it. They got out of there as soon as it happened. So their bodies were requiring 21% of oxygen and they stepped into Roshar's 35% oxygen. No problem. It's like getting out off burning house - you can still run around in smoke full of CO and CO2 and low on O2, if you get out fast, you can even save your favorite books (like all of Sanderson, I think we would have to choose the most favorite, as there is too much to carry). They were not biologically adapted to new Ashyn conditions of low oxygen, so they escape immediately.

It's about where life originated, where it is adapted to live, and the differences between that and new envioment in which they are going into, rather than temporary conditions that happened one day.

[Tglassy]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, yes we are. And we're having fun. So what's the problem?

Hey, no problem here.  I did try to get involved in the discussion, but quickly realized it was less about coming to a concensus and more about "My favorite is better than your favorite."

I just have a very hard time believing that a spear wielding army still using bows could do much against one with modern weaponry.  Scadrial has electricity.  We went from the electric light bulb to the atomic bomb to landing on the moon in less than a hundred years.  Yes, Roshar has fabriels, but those are limited by...well...by what fabriels can do.  Roshar is still missing one key thing that Scadrial has that has led to nearly every modern convenience: a motor.  

Seriously.  Think about it.  The ability to make something spin is the foundation of most of our technology.  From automobiles to power generators to the jet engine.  Ceiling fans, weed eaters, chain saws, propellers, there are so many uses for the simble ability to make something spin at command.  And Roshar doesn't have that.  Nothing in their fabriels replicates that at this point.  They can do some crazy stuff with spanreeds and the like, but the sheer amount of manpower needed to move the Fourth Bridge is insane.

Now, what they wind up doing with the ability to multiply force by transfering one half of a spanreed's spren into a larget gemstone will be interesting to see.  That could create some crazy tech.  But...probably nothing we on Earth haven't been able to do with a simple motor and some electricity.  I mean, they have spanreeds...we have the internet.  They have the Fourth Bridge, we have jet engines.  If it was Today Earth vs Roshar in book 4, we'd stomp them in the ground, radiants or no, and Scadrial is headed this direction with their tech.  Roshar isn't.  They don't generate electricity.  They rely on Stormlight, which has much more limited uses from what I've seen.  Maybe in that hundred years, Roshar can come up with some crazy things with their Fabriels.  But if they don't figure out how to make a simple motor, I just don't see them ever catching up.  In fact, their reliance on Investiture has stunted their scientific advancement significantly, because their focused on an inefficient power source that only does certain things.  

Which makes this a Radiants vs Scadrial thread, not a Roshar vs Scadrial thread.  Because Radiants are the only things Roshar has that can possibly do anything to Scadrial.  On Roshar, with regular High Storms and the ability to cosntantly renew their Spheres, Radiants could maybe handle a Scadrian invasion.  But on Scadrial?  With no High Storms to renew not only their Radiants, but the foundation of their entire technological system?  There will never be an invasion of Rosharans to Scadrial.  Their technology system wouldn't allow it.  But Scadrien tech is not dependant on Investiture.  They can go wherever they want.  Even their investiture based abilities aren't locked to their planet.  Metal is everywhere!

Anyway, just my thoughts.  I'm sure y'all will tear them apart with how your Rosharans have anti Scadrian force fields or something.  

 

[therunner]

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I just have a very hard time believing that a spear wielding army still using bows could do much against one with modern weaponry.  Scadrial has electricity.  We went from the electric light bulb to the atomic bomb to landing on the moon in less than a hundred years.  Yes, Roshar has fabriels, but those are limited by...well...by what fabriels can do.  Roshar is still missing one key thing that Scadrial has that has led to nearly every modern convenience: a motor. 

Seriously.  Think about it.  The ability to make something spin is the foundation of most of our technology.  From automobiles to power generators to the jet engine.  Ceiling fans, weed eaters, chain saws, propellers, there are so many uses for the simble ability to make something spin at command.  And Roshar doesn't have that.  Nothing in their fabriels replicates that at this point.  They can do some crazy stuff with spanreeds and the like, but the sheer amount of manpower needed to move the Fourth Bridge is insane.

Good point, but Roshar has 10 years till TLM, and they are advancing rather quickly at the moment.
And with the recent discovery of aluminum effects on fabrials + effects of gems of different sizes they could feasibly create something that changes linear motion to rotating motion.
Or you know, just make an ordinary mechanism to that.
Now of course they also have to create a fabrial generating that linear motion in the first place, but they already have attractor fabrials, so you can set up two of them on opposite ends of some tube, and then have them alternate when they are turned on. They have clocks so timing mechanism could be created for this purpose.
TA-DA, motor powered by Stormlight, and it is ecological!

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Now, what they wind up doing with the ability to multiply force by transfering one half of a spanreed's spren into a larget gemstone will be interesting to see.  That could create some crazy tech.  But...probably nothing we on Earth haven't been able to do with a simple motor and some electricity.  I mean, they have spanreeds...we have the internet.  They have the Fourth Bridge, we have jet engines.  If it was Today Earth vs Roshar in book 4, we'd stomp them in the ground, radiants or no, and Scadrial is headed this direction with their tech.  Roshar isn't.  They don't generate electricity.  They rely on Stormlight, which has much more limited uses from what I've seen.  Maybe in that hundred years, Roshar can come up with some crazy things with their Fabriels.  But if they don't figure out how to make a simple motor, I just don't see them ever catching up.  In fact, their reliance on Investiture has stunted their scientific advancement significantly, because their focused on an inefficient power source that only does certain things.  

We have internet/jet engines/advanced rockets, Scadrial at TLM does not. They don't even have phones yet, and only limited telegraphs. And a lot of the more advanced tech in basin (i.e. radio/rockets) were first discovered by Set (who had help from Autonomy) and only later replicated by the Basin folk, who had access to working examples.
E.g. as it stands Fourth Bridge is in some ways more advanced than what Malwish have, but deficient in others, and both are powered by fabrials.

And while Scadrial is advancing their 'ordinary' technology, Roshar won't stand still and their advancement will take them more in direction of 'esoteric' sciences related to Cognitive and Spiritual realms. Probably both will have some stronger areas, and weaker areas, owing to their different focuses.

And I would not say their reliance on Investiture has stunted their advancement, they were barely bronze age civilization 4500 years ago (Heralds had to re-teach them how to cast bronze, and later Desolations were nearly back to back not giving time to integrate and develop the knowledge), when Taln was betrayed. On top of that they have to contend with super-hurricane every ~2 weeks, considering that they are doing about as you would expect, accounting for distortions caused by existence of e.g. soulcasters.

Right now they can create vacuum tubes, have advanced mathematics (mostly focused on harmonics and others, which makes sense considering their dominant religion), are theorizing along the lines of quantum physics (WoR, interludes with ardents), and of course are quickly advancing with fabrials.

In a sense Roshar represents the 'magi-tech' counterpart to Basin and Scadrial as a whole (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623).

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Which makes this a Radiants vs Scadrial thread, not a Roshar vs Scadrial thread.  Because Radiants are the only things Roshar has that can possibly do anything to Scadrial.  On Roshar, with regular High Storms and the ability to cosntantly renew their Spheres, Radiants could maybe handle a Scadrian invasion.  But on Scadrial?  With no High Storms to renew not only their Radiants, but the foundation of their entire technological system?  There will never be an invasion of Rosharans to Scadrial.  Their technology system wouldn't allow it.  But Scadrien tech is not dependant on Investiture.  They can go wherever they want.  Even their investiture based abilities aren't locked to their planet.  Metal is everywhere!

Sure lack of Stormlight off-world is going to be a problem, and will create single/two-fold point of failure in Bondsmiths. Supply lines of infused gems through Cognitive will be a limiting factor. Both of these were discussed and acknowledged on previous pages. Purified Investiture will eventually help with this, but that is far in the future, even those 3 jars of Dor were only an emergency measure.

And equally, I think everyone does acknowledge that regular Rosharan troop would have 'difficulty' (which is putting it lightly) against Scadrian troops, that is why a lot of discussion centers around using Radiants to destroy Scadrian production abilities and equipment + disrupt supply lines. Because Scadrian soldier with a gun but no bullets (or bullets but broken gun) is suddenly a lot worse than Rosharan soldier with only a spear and a shield.

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Hey, no problem here.  I did try to get involved in the discussion, but quickly realized it was less about coming to a concensus and more about "My favorite is better than your favorite."

Anyway, just my thoughts.  I'm sure y'all will tear them apart with how your Rosharans have anti Scadrian force fields or something. 

And your thoughts are appreciated.
But I don't think there is a need for snark. If you don't think others are discussing honestly, you don't need to participate.

Edited December 12, 2022 by therunner
spelling

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Hey, no problem here.  I did try to get involved in the discussion, but quickly realized it was less about coming to a concensus and more about "My favorite is better than your favorite."

Good for you, the only concensus we have is that there will be no consensus. And to be fair, my favorite is Roshar too, so I'm on the wrong side, just bacause I also think that Scadiral has so many advantages that make their defence possible, if even successful.

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I just have a very hard time believing that a spear wielding army still using bows could do much against one with modern weaponry.

Yup, Rosharian soldiers will be blasted into oblivion, and lose morale so fast, that they won't ever go back to front.  Few machine guns will destroy and rout their entire army.

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

But if they don't figure out how to make a simple motor, I just don't see them ever catching up.

Roshar has one big problem - no oil, coal, gas. They can't make motor in the same way we, or Scadial can. But they can make substitute, fabrial motor, fueled by light. That's very intresting and would be fun to see what they will do with it - but not in this scenario. 

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

In fact, their reliance on Investiture has stunted their scientific advancement significantly, because their focused on an inefficient power source that only does certain things.  

I do not agree. In recent years lots of new scientific discoveries were made, resulting in boom of new fabrial technology. One year passed from making rising clothes covering archers from rain, to Bridge 4 flying machine. That's impressive. Before that for thousands of year barely anything got invented, that's true. But that can be also told about Earth, Scadrial etc.

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Which makes this a Radiants vs Scadrial thread, not a Roshar vs Scadrial thread.  Because Radiants are the only things Roshar has that can possibly do anything to Scadrial. 

100% true. 

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

On Roshar, with regular High Storms and the ability to cosntantly renew their Spheres, Radiants could maybe handle a Scadrian invasion.  But on Scadrial?  With no High Storms to renew not only their Radiants, but the foundation of their entire technological system?

They have Bondsmith, Dalinar, that would supply them with Stormlight. We talked about it a lot, as that is the single point of failure for Roshar, if he dies, Roshar is doomed.

 

The problem that Scadrial have is that technology and weaponry they have is limited in numbers as for the end of TLM. The first weeks and months would be hard, but Scadrial has modern industry, so after that hard time, factories would be switch into war time production, and new factories would be made, outproducing anything that Roshar can damage, or produce themself. Guns, artillery, and TNT will kill Radiants.

 

[therunner]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The problem that Scadrial have is that technology and weaponry they have is limited in numbers as for the end of TLM. The first weeks and months would be hard, but Scadrial has modern industry, so after that hard time, factories would be switch into war time production, and new factories would be made, outproducing anything that Roshar can damage, or produce themself. Guns, artillery, and TNT will kill Radiants.

I know this war partially discussed, but I would point out that typically in our world factories that could supply soldiers needed to be located somewhere enemy could not strike (i.e. US during WW2, deep behind lines during WW1). Mechanized warfare is heavily reliant on production capabilities.

And since Roshar has air superiority (Windrunners) and can strike anywhere in the Basin (again Windrunners) Scadrial has virtually no safe locations for placing their factories. And setting up a factory is far harder then destroying it.
(I acknowledge that here we differ whether or not Windrunners would/could participate in such sabotage, thought war-materiel factories should be actionable by them I think).

The only safe place I can think of are the caverns, similar to what Set had, those would be reasonably protected against air-strikes and infiltration. The question would then move to supply lines, as those factories have to get their supplies out in reasonable numbers.

Edited December 12, 2022 by therunner

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I know this war partially discussed, but I would point out that typically in our world factories that could supply soldiers needed to be located somewhere enemy could not strike (i.e. US during WW2, deep behind lines during WW1). Mechanized warfare is heavily reliant on production capabilities.

And since Roshar has air superiority (Windrunners) and can strike anywhere in the Basin (again Windrunners) Scadrial has virtually no safe locations for placing their factories. And setting up a factory is far harder then destroying it.
(I acknowledge that here we differ whether or not Windrunners would/could participate in such sabotage, thought war-materiel factories should be actionable by them I think).

The only safe place I can think of are the caverns, similar to what Set had, those would be reasonably protected against air-strikes and infiltration. The question would then move to supply lines, as those factories have to get their supplies out in reasonable numbers.

Yes, the caves are a good idea, and with rails, supplies won't be an issiue. Moreover the damage Windrunner can do is not comparable to bomb raids in WW2 - factories would be up and running after days or weeks of repair. Factories can also be hidden among thousands buildings in Elendel or other cities, and camouflaged to look like residential building.

This would be a problem for Scadrial, but a problem that would be manageable at least.

And the Windrunners will have troubles with oath - if they force workers out of the building, than they can damage it. But at some point people might just say "I won't go as I know you can't hurt me, and i'm no threat to you" than Windrunners can't do anything, without violating his oats.

Windrunners blades cuts perfectly through material, and that can be easily welded back in many cases. Using gravity to colapse building - still a lot of material that can be reuse including heavy machinery.

And there are also leacher grenades. How many Windrunners they have to lose before realising that it's to dangerous to make those strikes? And if just plated Windrunners would do this, than they can strike only few targets at best - not efficient, as Scadrial would repair and place new ones faster than they could destroy them.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And the Windrunners will have troubles with oath - if they force workers out of the building, than they can damage it. But at some point people might just say "I won't go as I know you can't hurt me, and i'm no threat to you" than Windrunners can't do anything, without violating his oats.

None of the windrunners oaths say "I won't kill someone who isn't a direct threat to me." And as long as it isn't explicitly said there will be those who can do it.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And there are also leacher grenades. How many Windrunners they have to lose before realising that it's to dangerous to make those strikes? And if just plated Windrunners would do this, than they can strike only few targets at best - not efficient, as Scadrial would repair and place new ones faster than they could destroy them.

There aren't enough leechers or grenades to do that. They could have maybe twelve or so at best, but that's for the entire basin.

[alder24]

53 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

None of the windrunners oaths say "I won't kill someone who isn't a direct threat to me." And as long as it isn't explicitly said there will be those who can do it.

Protect those that can't protect themself - workers can't and killing them is not protecting them. Morality.

54 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

There aren't enough leechers or grenades to do that. They could have maybe twelve or so at best, but that's for the entire basin.

There have been 6 years of intense trade with Malwish, Marasi has 2 or more of them. Police, army and some individuals could easily gather few hundreds or low thousands of grenades during that time. Where do you got 12?

[therunner]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Protect those that can't protect themself - workers can't and killing them is not protecting them. Morality.

Workers can leave. If Windrunners give them warning, and they decide to stay, it is up to them, not the Windrunners. 3rd Oath does not mean you cannot kill enemies.

No Windrunner outside of Kaladin seemed to have his issues about fighting and killing enemies (and note that in Oathbringer that was Kaladin issue, not Oath itself), and factory producing weapons is valid military target and workers are willingly helping combatants.

If the workers are forced to be there, well, kill their guards and recruit them to your side.

And even if all Windrunners interpret their Oaths as extremely as Kaladin, well they can just carry e.g. Stonewards who could destroy it, or regular troops with anti-Investiture grenades (if those are developed by then).

Edit:

Quote

There have been 6 years of intense trade with Malwish, Marasi has 2 or more of them. Police, army and some individuals could easily gather few hundreds or low thousands of grenades during that time. Where do you got 12?

From the statement that Malwish are being very stingy with them, and don't like sharing their technology with Basin?
Marasi seems to be getting her only thanks to Alik, not through some official trade. I have read TLM only once, so please correct me on this.

Edited December 12, 2022 by therunner
added second response

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Protect those that can't protect themself - workers can't and killing them is not protecting them. Morality.

Hey, you are making weapons to use against my friends, best way to save them is to kill you.

Basic risk management.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There have been 6 years of intense trade with Malwish, Marasi has 2 or more of them. Police, army and some individuals could easily gather few hundreds or low thousands of grenades during that time. Where do you got 12?

Not intense, both sides were upset by the trade thinking they were getting the short end, and Allik provided Marasi hers directly.

[alder24]

19 hours ago, therunner said:

Workers can leave. If Windrunners give them warning, and they decide to stay, it is up to them, not the Windrunners. 3rd Oath does not mean you cannot kill enemies.

Yes, but workers aren't enemies, they are just workers. Killing them is not right.

19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Hey, you are making weapons to use against my friends, best way to save them is to kill you.

Basic risk management.

Yeah, perfectly logical, right? That's why Elsecaller would say that. Windrunners are all about morality and doing what is right. Killing innocent civilians is not right nor moral.

 

[therunner]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but workers aren't enemies, they are just workers. Killing them is not right.

If they make weapons they are enemies, unless they are there against their will.
If they are allowed to leave the factory, and they choose to stay to defend it, that is responsibility of the workers.
The 2nd Oath is

Quote

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" .

not "I will protect innocents". The workers can protect themselves, they can flee. Windrunner would try to minimize the losses sure, but they are still among the more militaristic orders, and were known for special operations, so the mission would still take priority.

Some Windrunners might personally not like it, but it does not go against the Oaths.

Additionally, 4th Oath Windrunner would be even more ok, as the Oath is literally about accepting there are limits to who you can protect.

Edited December 13, 2022 by therunner
spelling

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, perfectly logical, right? That's why Elsecaller would say that. Windrunners are all about morality and doing what is right. Killing innocent civilians is not right nor moral.

If they are making weapons they aren't innocent.

And none of the Oaths mention innocence.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

If they make weapons they are enemies, unless they are there against their will.

 

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If they are making weapons they aren't innocent.

And none of the Oaths mention innocence.

 

Yes, let's commit war crimes and slaughter innocent unarmed civilians because they are working to feed their families. What've happened with this discussion? It's not even about Oaths now, it's just about what's right or wrong, which is important to every Windrunner and their spren.

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Yes, let's commit war crimes and slaughter innocent unarmed civilians because they are working to feed their families. What've happened with this discussion? It's not even about Oaths now, it's just about what's right or wrong, which is important to every Windrunner and their spren.

Warcrimes are not set in stone, they are laws, ones which Roshar doesn't have. And even if they did Skybreakers would be more concerned about not breaking them than windrunners.

 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Warcrimes are not set in stone, they are laws, ones which Roshar doesn't have. And even if they did Skybreakers would be more concerned about not breaking them than windrunners.

Do you consider killing workers and civilians as a right and moral thing do to? Do you think Windrunner would consider it as a right and moral thing to do? Do you think Dalinar would consider killing civilians as a right and moral thing to do? Do you think Azir would consider this a moral thing to do after all of the suffering that Sadees bring them in the same way?

 

Quote

Never ask of your men a sacrifice you wouldn’t make yourself. Never make them fight in conditions you would refuse to fight in yourself. Never ask a man to perform an act you wouldn’t soil your own hands doing. - Dalinar TWoK ch 65

The moment you start killing civilians you stop fighting against Basin army, you are fighting against every sinlge person who lives there, who now considers you a threat to their own live and will do anything to protect themself and their close one from you.

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Do you consider killing workers and civilians as a right and moral thing do to? Do you think Windrunner would consider it as a right and moral thing to do? Do you think Dalinar would consider killing civilians as a right and moral thing to do? Do you think Azir would consider this a moral thing to do after all of the suffering that Sadees bring them in the same way?

 

The moment you start killing civilians you stop fighting against Basin army, you are fighting against every sinlge person who lives there, who now considers you a threat to their own live and will do anything to protect themself and their close one from you.

Wartime manufacturers are not civilians. There's a reason we call it war industry. They are an extension of the military, ask any army recruiter, they have positions in all fields, including manufacturing.

[alder24]

57 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Wartime manufacturers are not civilians. There's a reason we call it war industry. They are an extension of the military, ask any army recruiter, they have positions in all fields, including manufacturing.

Yes, by definitions of the laws, which, quoting you "Roshar doesn't have". That's why I'm asking about morality of unnecessary killing of workers, not laws. Skybreakers aren't even on Scadrial Yes, I admit, I was wrong with violating Oaths, that's why I was talking about morality.

 

I do think we need to step back and chill out here. We've become to emotionally invested in proving point, that deosn't exist. Instead of finding 404 ways of how Windrunner can use surges to destroy factory, without harming anyone (perfect opportunity), we're going full Anakin here, and killing not just a men, but a women and children too (they would be working there, men would be called for other duties, not necessarily fighting). Soon we will be searching justifications for soulcasting air in Elendel into mustard gas. So let's just stop this as there is no more points to be proven now.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Soon we will be searching justifications for soulcasting air in Elendel into mustard gas.

...

I do not have notes about doing this exact thing dating back to January 5th.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[bmcclure7]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:18 AM, therunner said:

Good point, but Roshar has 10 years till TLM, and they are advancing rather quickly at the moment.
And with the recent discovery of aluminum effects on fabrials + effects of gems of different sizes they could feasibly create something that changes linear motion to rotating motion.
Or you know, just make an ordinary mechanism to that.
Now of course they also have to create a fabrial generating that linear motion in the first place, but they already have attractor fabrials, so you can set up two of them on opposite ends of some tube, and then have them alternate when they are turned on. They have clocks so timing mechanism could be created for this purpose.
TA-DA, motor powered by Stormlight, and it is ecological!

We have internet/jet engines/advanced rockets, Scadrial at TLM does not. They don't even have phones yet, and only limited telegraphs. And a lot of the more advanced tech in basin (i.e. radio/rockets) were first discovered by Set (who had help from Autonomy) and only later replicated by the Basin folk, who had access to working examples.
E.g. as it stands Fourth Bridge is in some ways more advanced than what Malwish have, but deficient in others, and both are powered by fabrials.

And while Scadrial is advancing their 'ordinary' technology, Roshar won't stand still and their advancement will take them more in direction of 'esoteric' sciences related to Cognitive and Spiritual realms. Probably both will have some stronger areas, and weaker areas, owing to their different focuses.

And I would not say their reliance on Investiture has stunted their advancement, they were barely bronze age civilization 4500 years ago (Heralds had to re-teach them how to cast bronze, and later Desolations were nearly back to back not giving time to integrate and develop the knowledge), when Taln was betrayed. On top of that they have to contend with super-hurricane every ~2 weeks, considering that they are doing about as you would expect, accounting for distortions caused by existence of e.g. soulcasters.

Right now they can create vacuum tubes, have advanced mathematics (mostly focused on harmonics and others, which makes sense considering their dominant religion), are theorizing along the lines of quantum physics (WoR, interludes with ardents), and of course are quickly advancing with fabrials.

In a sense Roshar represents the 'magi-tech' counterpart to Basin and Scadrial as a whole (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623).

Sure lack of Stormlight off-world is going to be a problem, and will create single/two-fold point of failure in Bondsmiths. Supply lines of infused gems through Cognitive will be a limiting factor. Both of these were discussed and acknowledged on previous pages. Purified Investiture will eventually help with this, but that is far in the future, even those 3 jars of Dor were only an emergency measure.

And equally, I think everyone does acknowledge that regular Rosharan troop would have 'difficulty' (which is putting it lightly) against Scadrian troops, that is why a lot of discussion centers around using Radiants to destroy Scadrian production abilities and equipment + disrupt supply lines. Because Scadrian soldier with a gun but no bullets (or bullets but broken gun) is suddenly a lot worse than Rosharan soldier with only a spear and a shield.

And your thoughts are appreciated.
But I don't think there is a need for snark. If you don't think others are discussing honestly, you don't need to participate.

There not going to be able to get guns in just 10 years stormlight muskets maybe but not guns. 

They will have more radiance and airships for sure.

Edited December 13, 2022 by bmcclure7

[therunner]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I do think we need to step back and chill out here. We've become to emotionally invested in proving point, that deosn't exist. Instead of finding 404 ways of how Windrunner can use surges to destroy factory, without harming anyone (perfect opportunity), we're going full Anakin here, and killing not just a men, but a women and children too (they would be working there, men would be called for other duties, not necessarily fighting).

I mean, no one is proposing Radiants go full Anakin?
We just said that destroying ammo/gun factories does not interfere with Oaths, and that possibly Radiants who would have issues could first ask workers to leave.
No one is saying Radiants would land there and start indiscriminately killing everyone.

On my end I was just pointing out that factories supplying guns and ammo (the source of main Scadrian advantage) are going to be vulnerable, since they cannot effectively isolate them. You disputed that pointing at Oaths, we disproved that (I think). Speaking for myself I did not really see the discussion getting emotional.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, by definitions of the laws, which, quoting you "Roshar doesn't have". That's why I'm asking about morality of unnecessary killing of workers, not laws. Skybreakers aren't even on Scadrial Yes, I admit, I was wrong with violating Oaths, that's why I was talking about morality.

And also again, the workers can leave, so their unnecessary death would be through their choices as well. Factories creating guns/ammo are universally agreed to be completely valid targets, nearly on par with regular military installations, they are not really civilian target.

I think arguing morality of such action would not really get us anywhere, as moral standpoints can be quite subjective (e.g. see just Kaladin vs Lirin and their whole conflict in RoW), so I would rather refrain from such discussion, as I feel those would definitely get emotionally charged.

Edit: The single note on morality I will make is that even in our world Geneva Convention (which I think is pretty decent from moral standpoint) only guarantees protection for civilians who "... perform no work of a military character ", which I would argue does not include work in war factories ,as those directly enable war effort.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Soon we will be searching justifications for soulcasting air in Elendel into mustard gas. So let's just stop this as there is no more points to be proven now.

On a "funnier" note, in the last thread post RoW, the most horrifying proposal was using Hemalurgy to turn Mistings unsuitable for warfare into factories for spikes (using Gold compounding). That was...well..horrifying, if efficient (in Dwarf Fortress sense).

29 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

There not going to be able to get guns in just 10 years stormlight muskets maybe but not guns.

I don't think they would have even those honestly, they don't really have much reason to develop them yet.
Their major enemies (Fused, Thunderclasts) require either massive damage, or attacking souls, both of which early guns would be unable to provide.

After encountering Scadrians and their equipment they would start research in that direction, and primitive weapons using repulsive fabrials (since there are attractive there should be repulsive) could be created relatively fast, though how strong and efficient those would be I have no idea.

Edited December 13, 2022 by therunner
added one point

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

On my end I was just pointing out that factories supplying guns and ammo (the source of main Scadrian advantage) are going to be vulnerable, since they cannot effectively isolate them. You disputed that pointing at Oaths, we disproved that (I think). Speaking for myself I did not really see the discussion getting emotional.

Yes they are, which I agreed to it. Yes, you disproved it, that's why morality was my point, not to tall they can't do it, but they shouldn't. And with getting emotional I mean that we are so stuck to our sides and so eager to prove we're right, that we immediately jumped into killing those who don't want to leave the factory, instead of thinking about damaging the factory without harming them - like sticking workers to the ground outside the building. "Let's kill them just to prove you're wrong [noise of lightsaber]".

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Factories creating guns/ammo are universally agreed to be completely valid targets, on par with regular military installations

In our modern world, Roshar doesn't have that yet, They have blacksmiths that are more valued captured alive than dead. And they have burned cities with civilians. They don't have that developed concept of our modern distinction between civilian or military. If a lord rebel against his king, king has full right to slaughter every single person in lord's fiefdom as a punishment. That's why morality is the best judge now.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I think arguing morality of such action would not really get us anywhere, as moral standpoints can be quite subjective (e.g. see just Kaladin vs Lirin and their whole conflict in RoW), so I would rather refrain from such discussion, as I feel those would definitely get emotionally charged.

Yes, morality won't give us anything, just bigger hole to jump into, but it is important. What Dalinar considers moral or immoral defines how war would be waged.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

On a "funnier" note, in the last thread post RoW, the most horrifying proposal was using Hemalurgy to turn Misting unsuitable for warfare into factories for spikes (using Gold compounding). That was...well..horrifying, if efficient

Oh I thought about this, but that just wouldn't happen. Laws don't allow it, and Set lost so no one would tolerate this. But a volunteers, especially elderly and dying ones... but no.
I've got questions about gold compounding making war factories, but I don't think know if I want to dig deeper into it. 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

After encountering Scadrians and their equipment they would start research in that direction, and primitive weapons using repulsive fabrials (since there are attractive there should be repulsive) could be created relatively fast, though how strong and efficient those would be I have no idea.

A single gem? Probably not efficient, and wouldn't kill. Many gems - make it like a rail gun and it would work very well. How portable it would be, I don't know.

Edited December 13, 2022 by alder24

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I mean, no one is proposing Radiants go full Anakin?
We just said that destroying ammo/gun factories does not interfere with Oaths, and that possibly Radiants who would have issues could first ask workers to leave.
No one is saying Radiants would land there and start indiscriminately killing everyone.

On my end I was just pointing out that factories supplying guns and ammo (the source of main Scadrian advantage) are going to be vulnerable, since they cannot effectively isolate them. You disputed that pointing at Oaths, we disproved that (I think). Speaking for myself I did not really see the discussion getting emotional.

And also again, the workers can leave, so their unnecessary death would be through their choices as well. Factories creating guns/ammo are universally agreed to be completely valid targets, nearly on par with regular military installations, they are not really civilian target.

I think arguing morality of such action would not really get us anywhere, as moral standpoints can be quite subjective (e.g. see just Kaladin vs Lirin and their whole conflict in RoW), so I would rather refrain from such discussion, as I feel those would definitely get emotionally charged.

Edit: The single note on morality I will make is that even in our world Geneva Convention (which I think is pretty decent from moral standpoint) only guarantees protection for civilians who "... perform no work of a military character ", which I would argue does not include work in war factories ,as those directly enable war effort.

On a "funnier" note, in the last thread post RoW, the most horrifying proposal was using Hemalurgy to turn Mistings unsuitable for warfare into factories for spikes (using Gold compounding). That was...well..horrifying, if efficient (in Dwarf Fortress sense).

I don't think they would have even those honestly, they don't really have much reason to develop them yet.
Their major enemies (Fused, Thunderclasts) require either massive damage, or attacking souls, both of which early guns would be unable to provide.

After encountering Scadrians and their equipment they would start research in that direction, and primitive weapons using repulsive fabrials (since there are attractive there should be repulsive) could be created relatively fast, though how strong and efficient those would be I have no idea.

 The Knights radiance can't leave Roshar so no attacking gun factories. They could hit the ammunition supply lines though.

 

They could probably make guns After The war starts but that will take time. Until they do they will have to be careful or they'll have massive losses in every engagement.  At least among the not radiance.

Edited December 13, 2022 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

On 12/12/2022 at 8:50 AM, alder24 said:

Good for you, the only concensus we have is that there will be no consensus. And to be fair, my favorite is Roshar too, so I'm on the wrong side, just bacause I also think that Scadiral has so many advantages that make their defence possible, if even successful.

Yup, Rosharian soldiers will be blasted into oblivion, and lose morale so fast, that they won't ever go back to front.  Few machine guns will destroy and rout their entire army.

Roshar has one big problem - no oil, coal, gas. They can't make motor in the same way we, or Scadial can. But they can make substitute, fabrial motor, fueled by light. That's very intresting and would be fun to see what they will do with it - but not in this scenario. 

I do not agree. In recent years lots of new scientific discoveries were made, resulting in boom of new fabrial technology. One year passed from making rising clothes covering archers from rain, to Bridge 4 flying machine. That's impressive. Before that for thousands of year barely anything got invented, that's true. But that can be also told about Earth, Scadrial etc.

100% true. 

They have Bondsmith, Dalinar, that would supply them with Stormlight. We talked about it a lot, as that is the single point of failure for Roshar, if he dies, Roshar is doomed.

 

The problem that Scadrial have is that technology and weaponry they have is limited in numbers as for the end of TLM. The first weeks and months would be hard, but Scadrial has modern industry, so after that hard time, factories would be switch into war time production, and new factories would be made, outproducing anything that Roshar can damage, or produce themself. Guns, artillery, and TNT will kill Radiants.

 

No bondsmiths can't leave Roshar.  

[Kuldak]

48 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

No bondsmiths can't leave Roshar.  

I believe that we may have to purposefully ignore the WoB on this for the purposes of this discussion.

Spoiler

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case.

Adam Horne

That makes sense, because Hoid is weird.

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

...

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

The discussion started before that WoB, and if you remove the ability for Radiants to take their powers off-system, then Roshar is in for a bad time. Radiants are really the only thing keeping the army with machine guns from completely massacring the army with spears and (mostly) leather armor.

In a similar way, it seems that most agree Scadrial invading Roshar wouldn't go well for them due to the logistical issues with highstorms on an invading army and the ability to resupply stormlight to Radiants so easily.

In order for the discussion to really continue, one of those issues needs to be disregarded. Of the 2, handwaving radiants being able to leave the Rosharan system seems to have less complications than having to handwave all the logistical issues caused by highstorms to an army not used to them or what they would do to a "traditional" supply line. 

In all honesty I personally think the conflict should be over a theoretical, uninhabited world, contested by both sides for resource/relocation purposes, rather than an invasion of Scadrial or Roshar directly. That would put both worlds on even footing of having to maintain an off-world supply chain. It would also bypass the potential issues with the Radiant Oaths conflicting with yet another invasion of an inhabited planet and it's civilian population, this time as aggressors, rather than refugees. However the discussion seems to currently be set on a Rosharan invasion of Scadrial.