How is Hoid Free?

[SovietAmerica]

So, we know that Hoid/Cephandrius has multiple different powers. We know he has Allomancy, breaths (Heightenings), and most recently, lightweaving. In RoW or OB (Can't remember which) we are told that when someone is invested with a specific shards power, for example knights radiant, they are bound to that shards sphere of influence. Mraize tells Shallan she can never leave the Rosharan system. So if Hoid has multiple powers from different shards, how has he managed to avoid being bound to those systems?  

[Karger he/him]

Breaths can be moved freely as can allomacy.  The first is a function of how Endowment's power works while the second is not tied to position like some other magic systems.  The question of how he is getting off Roshar is a good one.  Sadly we do not have an answer yet although a number of theories have been proposed.

[Returned he/him]

One of the most important elements is that there are ways to get around that limitation (per WoB), but they aren't generally known in the Cosmere. So Mraize doesn't know how Shallan might get off of Roshar right now, but his organization is actively looking for ways to do just that so they can traffic Stormlight around the Cosmere. It's not unreasonable that someone as knowledgeable as Hoid would know a few techniques to give him more freedom to move around, though we don't know that that's the case for him.

Heightenings from Breaths are the most common example of easier-to-move magic because Endowment's powers are thought to be more about giving things away. People from Nalthis seem to be able to leave their system just by moving away (through the cognitive realm, but still). The Metallic Arts may be similar.

Beyond that, the powers aren't all equally confining. Broadly speaking it seems that Investiture tied to specific Shards is what's hard to move around. The major limitation is of Shards themselves. If they Invest enough of themselves into a system they give rise to magical abilities, but then they are too Invested to just leave. Knight Radiant bonds are a special case, I think, because they depend on connecting with a spren. The spren themselves are pieces of Shards, and the Shards which comprise them are Invested sufficiently into Roshar that they can't leave. Therefore the spren can't leave either, and neither can a being bonded to those spren.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Returned

[Odiumiumium he/him]

Crack theory: Hoid just stuffs himself into an aluminum box and hires someone to push it around in Shadesmar.

[SovietAmerica]

23 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

Crack theory: Hoid just stuffs himself into an aluminum box and hires someone to push it around in Shadesmar.

 

On 10/14/2022 at 0:38 PM, Returned said:

One of the most important elements is that there are ways to get around that limitation (per WoB), but they aren't generally known in the Cosmere. So Mraize doesn't know how Shallan might get off of Roshar right now, but his organization is actively looking for ways to do just that so they can traffic Stormlight around the Cosmere. It's not unreasonable that someone as knowledgeable as Hoid would know a few techniques to give him more freedom to move around, though we don't know that that's the case for him.

Heightenings from Breaths are the most common example of easier-to-move magic because Endowment's powers are thought to be more about giving things away. People from Nalthis seem to be able to leave their system just by moving away (through the cognitive realm, but still). The Metallic Arts may be similar.

Beyond that, the powers aren't all equally confining. Broadly speaking it seems that Investiture tied to specific Shards is what's hard to move around. The major limitation is of Shards themselves. If they Invest enough of themselves into a system they give rise to magical abilities, but then they are too Invested to just leave. Knight Radiant bonds are a special case, I think, because they depend on connecting with a spren. The spren themselves are pieces of Shards, and the Shards which comprise them are Invested sufficiently into Roshar that they can't leave. Therefore the spren can't leave either, and neither can a being bonded to those spren.

 

On 10/14/2022 at 0:36 PM, Karger said:

Breaths can be moved freely as can allomacy.  The first is a function of how Endowment's power works while the second is not tied to position like some other magic systems.  The question of how he is getting off Roshar is a good one.  Sadly we do not have an answer yet although a number of theories have been proposed.

First, love the aluminum box theory, tho given It’s HOID I assume he’s figured out some inane way to make it move on it’s own. Second, I see, so rosharan magic is the only magic we have really seen that is truly Tying people down. Also, I don’t know about metallic arts. You say that spren are direct manifestations of a shard, but HOID got his allomantic powers by DIRECTLY consuing a bead of lerasium, which I believe is a physical manifestation of Preservation (as atium was to Ruin). So I feel like that would, by the same definition, change his spirit web, connecting him to preservation

[Odiumiumium he/him]

2 minutes ago, SovietAmerica said:

HOID got his allomantic powers by DIRECTLY consuing a bead of lerasium, which I believe is a physical manifestation of Preservation (as atium was to Ruin). So I feel like that would, by the same definition, change his spirit web, connecting him to preservation

True, but as far as I understand it, Allomancy or Breaths are more like hard drives, which are sort of hard-wired into your...existence(?) and you can take them with you and use them anywhere. Surgebinding, however, requires an ISP aka a spren, and they are tied to Roshar. And you need internet aka stormlight. (Someone who actually understands Realmatic theory and computers please re-explain this analogy)

 

7 minutes ago, SovietAmerica said:

tho given It’s HOID I assume he’s figured out some inane way to make it move on it’s own

Awaken a fleet of flutes and give them the command MOVE BOX UNTIL I SAY NO

[Thanatos]

I look at it like... a Shard that has invested an area of space acts like a black hole. Stress the world "like". 

Nothing goes beyond the event horizon but stays within the realm of the invested Shard. Like the Scadrial system or Rosharian system. 

Given a Shards investiture is Cosmere wide and not just location, i think Hoid and others are able to move by slightly modifying investiture they have to move in any area a Shards investiture lays. 

Like slightly changing its base code. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Thanatos

[Returned he/him]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:41 PM, SovietAmerica said:

You say that spren are direct manifestations of a shard, but HOID got his allomantic powers by DIRECTLY consuing a bead of lerasium, which I believe is a physical manifestation of Preservation (as atium was to Ruin). So I feel like that would, by the same definition, change his spirit web, connecting him to preservation

It is true that Lerasium is a physical manifestation of Preservation, and that consuming it changes a person's spirit web. But I don't think that that is the same as giving that person the properties of a Shard, nor the consequences of a Shard Investing itself into a planet/system. Lerasium is a godmetal, which is a manifestation of a Shard in the physical realm. Eating Lerasium and then burning it consumes the Lerasium (it's no longer around afterwards) and leaves behind the changed spirit web of the person that burned it, which is what makes them an Allomancer. It can also have other effects which we don't know the specifics of yet, and that information may be useful for the question you're asking. But regardless, Lerasium is Preservation (in a sense), while an Allomancer is someone who is Connected to Preservation, and those are not the same.

What is different about spren is that they're Splinters: not just manifestations but literal pieces of Honor and/or Cultivation, which is why (as far as we know for now) they are bound to the Rosharan system like the Shards of which they are pieces. They aren't an artifact that changes a person and leaves those changes behind after they're gone, like Lerasium-- the spren need to continue to exist for the bond to keep existing, and some degree of physical nearness seems important for that as well. So a Radiant can't easily leave the spren behind (not if they want to keep their powers), and the spren can't leave because they are tiny pieces of a great power that really can't leave.

It's important to note that this limitation can be overcome. Brandon has said as much, some written material demonstrates it, and the closest thing to spren in the Cosmere (seon) are also Splinters of their Shard, but we've recently seen one leave its native system to end up on Roshar. If it can be done for seon it can probably be done for spren too, so it's definitely not a hard limitation even if we don't know how to get around it yet.

A significant piece that we don't have great evidence of so far is whether or not an Allomancer can travel off of Scadrial easily (or if a bead of Lerasium can, for that matter). As far as I recall right now (I can check more later) Hoid is the only Allomancer we've seen worldhop, so it's equally consistent with what we know to think that either of the following may be true: they can leave easily, because Allomantic ability (or maybe any Metallic Art) is just different from spren bonds in that way; or it's not easy for an Allomancer to take their powers off Scadrial but Hoid happens to know the method to do it. (Edited to add: @Isilel points out below that Demoux, who is known to be a Misting, is on Roshar as well. Demoux's example suggests that Metalborn aren't bound to the Scadrian system in the same way that an Invested Shard is.)

Edited October 18, 2022 by Returned

[Isilel]

We have seen (former captain) Demoux from the first Mistborn trilogy on Roshar in the Purelake Interlude in WoK, and he is a Misting. There was never any indication that Metalborn are limited in their movement across cosmere in any way. 

There were also at least 3 Seons on Roshar in RoW - Shallan, Mraize and Hoid all had one apiece. It is currently unclear why the method used to move Seons around can't be applied to spren, Heralds, Fused or Kelsier. 

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

In Secret History there was, but that may have been cognitive shadow Kelsier specific.