SA5 Prologue Theory

[Stockman]

Hey All. I've had a lot of fun reading folks theories, and ya'll have some really good ones. I wanted to share a few of mine and get some feedback. No need to go easy on me! Let me know any holes . Also if these have been mentioned before, my bad!

Regarding the SA5 Prologue, there's something I haven't seen mentioned much. The "most important words" the falsefather is trying to get Gavilar to say don't seem to be the Knights Radiant oaths

Quote

“If I should die,” Gavilar said, quoting the Way of Kings, “then I would do so having lived my life right. It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there.”

Not even close, the spren said. Guessing will not bring you to the Words, Gavilar.

Obviously these are similar to the first Knight Radiant oath, but falsefather says not even close?  

Later on:

Quote

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

And here we have something that seems closer to the correct words that the falsefather wants Gavilar to say.

Both of these quotes seem planted by BrandoSando to specifically suggest that these most important words Galvinar is looking for are not the Knight Radiant Oaths, but in fact something else. Something like "I need it" are nearly the opposite of the first Radiant oaths.

Okay, but what kind of Being would benefit from Gavilar saying some kind of oath or intent other than a Radiant oath?

Lets look at some hints at what it could be:

Quote

That is true. I do not speak in human ways. But still, once you are a…Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you?

So the falsefather is likely

-not human
-knows a lot about the Oathpact

 

Quote

Oh, Gavilar. There is so little you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities.

Those eyes seemed to pull Gavilar forward, to overwhelm him, to consume him. He’d never seen anything like this before. He… He saw storms, endless storms, and a world so frail. A tiny speck of blue in against an infinite canvas of black.

Eyes are the gateway to the soul!

Falsefather's true perception of Roshar is as a small (stormy) frail world- a speck of blue against the vastness of black intergalactic space. This seems like a paygrade above the stormfather... The Stormfather's entire world is Roshar. To see Roshar as small would imply something bigger or more knowledgeable and more vast, yes?

So falsefather is likely:
-cosmere-aware- or more so than the Stormfather. Either shard or dawnshard or some similar level awareness
-able to usurp the stormfather connection (including visions, etc.)

Falsefathers main goals seem to be have someone say the words (which might loosely translate to have the right intent, since we know oaths can be taken nonverbally such as in Edgedancer. Also falsefather says "It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong."  Maybe he was so close, but intent was wrong. maybe the problem was that he "demanded it").

 

My big suspect is:

-Cultivation. She has certainly mislead in the past, by omission if nothing else. Also falsefather says "You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel…you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find." We know that Cultivation picks out special individuals to accomplish long term tasks for her. She is a big long term planner!

Here's the big thing:

Does Cultivation ever bestow power based on non-radiant oaths? Is "I need it" something similar to what people ask for when they go to her for a Boon? Maybe she was tempting Gavilar to get a Boon? This is my main suspicion. The problem with his words, was that he demanded it, rather than asked for a Boon! We know Falsefather wasn't digging for a Radiant oath!

Reread the second quote in this post and see if it doesn't vibe differently.

Other candidates that seem less likely:

-A sentient Dawnshard. They are centered around intents and fit all our other requirements. Assuming a Dawnshard Intent also conveys a lot of power. It's the only reason I know to say words/oaths besides the Kinght Radiant oaths. But without Investiture, Gavilar couldn't use the Dawnshard anyways, so maybe not!
-Wit. He definitely misleads others to achieve goals and has some strong powers. Can he take advantage of the Stormfather's connection to Gavilar tho? Also he's human and doesn't really benefit from an oath/intent
-Ishar. He prob could hijack Stormfather's connection (like he tries to do in RoW). He has good motives to try and get out of the Oathpack by having Galvinar replace him in it. But he's human, so I rule him out.

 

Second part of my theory:

There's this critical line near the end:

Quote

I warned you, Gavilar, the Stormfather said. This is my failure as much as yours. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought…your family…

Hmm.... Try again?  What about previous attempts? Attempts at being a voice that speaks to someone... And tells the the same things that she told Galivar- that the voidbringers and Radiants are coming back... Someone with access to honor blades, who happens to be a main character for SA book 5? Maybe someone who gets labeled as Truthless?

What we know of Sezth's background of hearing a voice fits the same M.O. of the falsefather we witnessed in the prologue. This voice tries to pick a candidate to take some action before the Final Desolation. We know it's not the Stormfather per se in this prologue, so why should we expect her to try impersonating him again? Using Stormfather was probably a good way to suck up to Gavilar's inflated sense of self. Cultivation being the voice Sezth hears would tie the prologue deeper into the story we already expect to hear in SA5.

BrandoSando is the King of making everything look obvious in retrospect. I rest my case. Let me hear what you think!

 

Edited for clarity

Edited October 8, 2022 by Stockman

[Frustration]

How would Cultivation have been surprised by a Herald dying?

And The Stormfather is Cosmere aware, knowing about the origins of the shards and Adonalsium. He also absorbed Honor's cognitive shadow, so he has some of the memories and likely some of the perceptive of Honor.

[lukaash]

I thought false father was related to Odium's Storm. It is like the stormfather, but it is specifically different. Out of the three stormfather like spren we know of, there is the sibling, the stormfather, and maybe Odium's spren. So maybe that spren was trying to work with Galivar on something.

[bmcclure7]

On 9/26/2022 at 11:54 PM, Stockman said:

Hey All. I've had a lot of fun reading folks theories, and ya'll have some really good ones. I wanted to share a few of mine and get some feedback. No need to go easy on me! Let me know any holes . Also if these have been mentioned before, my bad!

Regarding the SA5 Prologue, there's something I haven't seen mentioned much. The "most important words" the falsefather is trying to get Gavilar to say don't seem to be the Knights Radiant oaths

Obviously these are similar to the first Knight Radiant oath, but falsefather says not even close?  

Later on:

And here we have something that seems closer to the correct words that the falsefather wants Gavilar to say.

Both of these quotes seem planted by BrandoSando to specifically suggest that these most important words Galvinar is looking for are not the Knight Radiant Oaths, but in fact something else. Something like "I need it" are nearly the opposite of the first Radiant oaths.

Okay, but what kind of Being would benefit from Gavilar saying some kind of oath or intent other than a Radiant oath?

Lets look at some hints at what it could be:

So the falsefather is likely

-not human
-knows a lot about the Oathpact

 

Eyes are the gateway to the soul!

Falsefather's true perception of Roshar is as a small (stormy) frail world- a speck of blue against the vastness of black intergalactic space. This seems like a paygrade above the stormfather... The Stormfather's entire world is Roshar. To see Roshar as small would imply something bigger or more knowledgeable and more vast, yes?

So falsefather is likely:
-cosmere-aware- or more so than the Stormfather. Either shard or dawnshard or some similar level awareness
-able to usurp the stormfather connection (including visions, etc.)

Falsefathers main goals seem to be have someone say the words (which might loosely translate to have the right intent, since we know oaths can be taken nonverbally such as in Edgedancer. Also falsefather says "It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong."  Maybe he was so close, but intent was wrong. maybe the problem was that he "demanded it").
 

So sounds like falsefather wanted to accomplish something before the Final Desolation, and is the kind of person who is a planner.

 

The suspect is:

-Cultivation. She has certainly mislead in the past, by omission if nothing else. Also falsefather says "You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel…you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find." We know that Cultivation picks out special individuals to accomplish long term tasks for her. She also has cosmere awareness. 

Here's the big thing:

Does Cultivation ever bestow power based on non-radiant oaths? Is "I need it" something similar to what people ask for when they go to her for a Boon? Maybe she was tempting Gavilar to get a Boon? This is my main suspicion. The problem with his words, was that he demanded it, rather than asked for a Boon! We know Falsefather wasn't digging for a Radiant oath!

Reread the second quote in this post and see if it doesn't vibe differently.

Other candidates that seem less likely:

-A sentient Dawnshard. They are centered around intents and fit all our other requirements. Assuming a Dawnshard Intent also conveys a lot of power. It's the only reason I know to say words/oaths besides the Kinght Radiant oaths. But without Investiture, Gavilar couldn't use the Dawnshard anyways, so maybe not!
-Wit. He definitely misleads others to achieve goals and has some strong powers. Can he take advantage of the Stormfather's connection to Gavilar tho? Also he's human and doesn't really benefit from an oath/intent
-Ishar. He prob could hijack Stormfather's connection (like he tries to do in RoW). He has good motives to try and get out of the Oathpack by having Galvinar replace him in it. But he's human, so I rule him out.

 

Second part of my theory:

There's this critical line near the end:

Hmm.... Try again?  What about previous attempts? Attempts at being a voice that speaks to someone... And tells the the same things that she told Galivar- that the voidbringers and Radiants are coming back... Someone with access to honor blades, who happens to be a main character for SA book 5? Maybe someone who gets labeled as Truthless?

What we know of Sezth's background of hearing a voice fits the same M.O. of the falsefather we witnessed in the prologue. This voice tries to pick a candidate to take some action before the Final Desolation. We know it's not the Stormfather per se, so why should we expect her to try impersonating him again? Using Stormfather was probably a good way to suck up to Gavilar's inflated sense of self. Cultivation being the voice Sezth hears would tie the prologue deeper into the story we already expect to hear in SA5.

BrandoSando is the King of making everything look obvious in retrospect. I rest my case. Let me hear what you think!

 

Edited for clarity

This makes a lot of sense I still think that honor/tanavast connective shadow is the most likely theory but this is a good one.

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, lukaash said:

I thought false father was related to Odium's Storm. It is like the stormfather, but it is specifically different. Out of the three stormfather like spren we know of, there is the sibling, the stormfather, and maybe Odium's spren. So maybe that spren was trying to work with Galivar on something.

Doubtfull how would it give him access to the vision and why would it want to make a new Herald? Why would it be distressed if a Herald died? Why would he be upset at Galivar plans to let the voidbringers free?

 

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

How would Cultivation have been surprised by a Herald dying?

And The Stormfather is Cosmere aware, knowing about the origins of the shards and Adonalsium. He also absorbed Honor's cognitive shadow, so he has some of the memories and likely some of the perceptive of Honor.

It knows about Adonalsium sure but doesn't seem to care about anything out side of roshar.  

Edited September 28, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It knows about Adonalsium sure but doesn't seem to care about anything out side of roshar.  

The same could be said of Endowment.

[cometaryorbit]

I still think it's probably the real Stormfather uninfluenced by Dalinar's bond, but if there were a fake, Cultivation is one of the few plausible options due to speaking into Gavilar's mind.

Re "Give it to me. Now. I need it" being almost the Words, the Stormfather says in OB that the Heralds "went to Honor. He gave them this right, this oath". They might have demanded it of Honor. I doubt the Heralds swore the Ideals Radiant-style.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I still think it's probably the real Stormfather uninfluenced by Dalinar's bond, but if there were a fake, Cultivation is one of the few plausible options due to speaking into Gavilar's mind.

Re "Give it to me. Now. I need it" being almost the Words, the Stormfather says in OB that the Heralds "went to Honor. He gave them this right, this oath". They might have demanded it of Honor. I doubt the Heralds swore the Ideals Radiant-style.

We have seen stormfather with out a bond and without it he doesn't understand humans enough to de deceitful.  

[offer]

53 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

We have seen stormfather with out a bond and without it he doesn't understand humans enough to de deceitful.  

We know this only based on what the stormfather told Dalinar. If he misled Dalinar and held information from him it is possible he also understood humans more than he claimed before the bond (he did regret letting Eshonai die and understood her desire for exploration to know to give her a look on all of Roshar).

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, the Stormfather is not very open with Dalinar and may well have been actively misleading. He definitely is more alien before the bond, but I don't think that rules out trying to deceive- especially as he completely misunderstood Gavilar's intentions, so that doesn't show a good understanding of humanity.

[Rg2045]

Well I feel people are making the same mistake gavilar is making. That the words are the most important part. The most important part is the intent behind the words. That’s why “give it to me now” is the closest gavilar got. Because he truly desired it. So while gavilars thoughts were safe his heart was always being read though his words

[+Harrycrapper]

9 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Well I feel people are making the same mistake gavilar is making. That the words are the most important part. The most important part is the intent behind the words. That’s why “give it to me now” is the closest gavilar got. Because he truly desired it. So while gavilars thoughts were safe his heart was always being read though his words

Was going to say the same thing; the words themselves don't matter, it's the intent behind them. Gavilar has just been spouting out random quotes from the Way of Kings thinking it's like a riddle he needs to solve when Oaths are about feeling and genuinely meaning what you're saying. 

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

We have seen stormfather with out a bond and without it he doesn't understand humans enough to de deceitful.  

He was bonded to Gavilar, at least a little, no matter what he might claim.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, offer said:

We know this only based on what the stormfather told Dalinar. If he misled Dalinar and held information from him it is possible he also understood humans more than he claimed before the bond (he did regret letting Eshonai die and understood her desire for exploration to know to give her a look on all of Roshar).

 That would still disprove the theory that his behavior is caused by not having a bond. Or that his behavior changed by having a bond. 

[bmcclure7]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He was bonded to Gavilar, at least a little, no matter what he might claim.

 You have no proof of this. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 You have no proof of this. 

I do.

Brandon himself said that Gavilar was on the path to Bondsmith.

And The Stormfather literally said that he would not allow himself to be bound immediately before Dalinar swore the second ideal.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

I do.

Brandon himself said that Gavilar was on the path to Bondsmith.

And The Stormfather literally said that he would not allow himself to be bound immediately before Dalinar swore the second ideal.

 On the path doesn't mean that he had a bond yet. Dalinar was on the path to becoming a bond Smith long before he had a bond. 

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 On the path doesn't mean that he had a bond yet. Dalinar was on the path to becoming a bond Smith long before he had a bond. 

On the contrary he did have a bond. If you would turn you attention to the section of WoR(roughly page 1010) where Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin are discussing radiance Dalinar inhales stormlight and says that he's done so before, despite not having said any oaths.

[Rg2045]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

On the contrary he did have a bond. If you would turn you attention to the section of WoR(roughly page 1010) where Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin are discussing radiance Dalinar inhales stormlight and says that he's done so before, despite not having said any oaths.

So first oath bonds can be broken “easily” second oaths when broken “hurt”

and third and more “kill” the spren. 
 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

So first oath bonds can be broken “easily” second oaths when broken “hurt”

and third and more “kill” the spren. 
 

That's not what I said, but I am interested in this line of reasoning.

[Rg2045]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's not what I said, but I am interested in this line of reasoning.

I was making more, assumptions, based on your comments. The stormfather was at life before death oath with gavilar and wasn’t scared of the oaths breaking most likely because he knows nothing bad would happen to him. 
 

[Rabbit Unmade]

Gavilar was trying to become a herald, remember? He wasn‘t trying to become Radiant.

[Crylorenzo]

On the path to bondsmith could also mean the Nightwatcher from Cultivation, back to OP's original theory. While the Nightwatcher, the Sibling, and the Stormfather are the three we know of capable of forming a Nahel bond for bondsmiths, let's be honest, there's a lot we don't know about how these powers work. How did Ishar get them even before the Oathpact? Could bonds to other powerful spren such as Cusicech or one of the unmade do the same? We know so little. Brandon saying Gavilar was on the path to becoming a bondsmith could very well be smoke and mirrors.

[Stockman]

Awesome feedback everyone!! Love it!!!

 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 0:03 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I still think it's probably the real Stormfather uninfluenced by Dalinar's bond, but if there were a fake, Cultivation is one of the few plausible options due to speaking into Gavilar's mind.

Re "Give it to me. Now. I need it" being almost the Words, the Stormfather says in OB that the Heralds "went to Honor. He gave them this right, this oath". They might have demanded it of Honor. I doubt the Heralds swore the Ideals Radiant-style.

I didn't even think of how speaking into someone's mind would be a big factor, especially considering how it was used in mistborn... But I suppose most spren can do that, so it's probably not as indicative of much in Roshar?

 

Since I loved the feedback, I'll drop another theory that isn't talked about a lot.

Spoilers for Secret Project!!!

Spoiler

Shallan is going to explore other worlds!

Her literal last mention in WoR was her getting a map of stars in the sky with worlds listed, and the phrase "It was time to soar"!

It's almost seems intentionally written to suggest now that she's focused on interplanetary stuff now.

Back when RoW came out, it was hard to imagine that she would do interplanetary travel (or interplanetary cognitive realm travel), because there hadn't really been a ton of cross planet action. It appeared to be mostly just cameos from scaladrial and others. Cameos don't show the same level of (author's) commitment to interplanetary crossover, as actually having an agent explore another series' world in it's own series. And we were expecting another 5 books of Roshar and Mistborn Era.

Buuuut... If we know that the next book sets up enough of the story to understand Sigzil in Space (TM), I think there's really good reason to suspect the crossover between scaladrial and roshar is beginning. She could be the forward field agent for team Roshar in the fight against Scaladrial.

Also, a lot of her unanswered questions revolve around off-roshar questions and Thaidakar.... If she was to stay back on Roshar, what would she really be focused on? (if you know, you can tell me )

But really, ending her story in RoW that way really sets a theme for her in the next book.

:

Edited October 8, 2022 by Stockman