Divine Attributes and madness

[con1vm]

Well, greetings to the Shard.

Today I was suddenly struck by realisation so strong that I brought my thoughts about it here. A note: English is not my native language, therefore sometimes I probably will sound like Huio speaking Alethi; please forgive my occasional mistakes.

So, what's this all about? I looked on Divine Attributes, then looked on Heralds, and I saw this: most Heralds lost their so-called Primary Attribute, but kept their Secondary Attribute.

Nale is unjust and even psychopathic, but he's definitely very confident in his own motivations and actions (at least when there's no Lift, Szeth or Dalinar around).
I'm not sure about Shalash's creativity, but her obsession with destroying Heralds depicting art sounds to me like something opposite to creativity. However, she's very honest wuth herself and others about Heralds' - and her own - guilt and responsibility for their lie.
Kalak is not resolute in any way: we saw him in RoW as totally indecisive person, and he's getting worse. But he's still a builder - at least he built Sons of Honor IIRC.
Ishar is claiming godhood and making abominations, so, I think, he's not counting as pious. But is he guiding? Yes; we saw him guiding Nale and Kalak to killing potential Surgebinders, and he possibly led Heralds to betrayal of Oathpact.
If Taravangian is right, and Dova is really Battar in disguise, we see another example of madness: she cares about people and Desolations, but suggesting Death Rattles is not wise at all, rather quite opposite.

I'm still not for 100% on Chanarach Davar side, but if it's true...well, we see probably obedient, but not so brave woman.

About other Heralds I have doubts or no important information about their madness.

What do you think?

[That1Cellist he/him]

6 minutes ago, con1vm said:

Well, greetings to the Shard.

Today I was suddenly struck by realisation so strong that I brought my thoughts about it here. A note: English is not my native language, therefore sometimes I probably will sound like Huio speaking Alethi; please forgive my occasional mistakes.

So, what's this all about? I looked on Divine Attributes, then looked on Heralds, and I saw this: most Heralds lost their so-called Primary Attribute, but kept their Secondary Attribute.

Nale is unjust and even psychopathic, but he's definitely very confident in his own motivations and actions (at least when there's no Lift, Szeth or Dalinar around).
I'm not sure about Shalash's creativity, but her obsession with destroying Heralds depicting art sounds to me like something opposite to creativity. However, she's very honest wuth herself and others about Heralds' - and her own - guilt and responsibility for their lie.
Kalak is not resolute in any way: we saw him in RoW as totally indecisive person, and he's getting worse. But he's still a builder - at least he built Sons of Honor IIRC.
Ishar is claiming godhood and making abominations, so, I think, he's not counting as pious. But is he guiding? Yes; we saw him guiding Nale and Kalak to killing potential Surgebinders, and he possibly led Heralds to betrayal of Oathpact.
If Taravangian is right, and Dova is really Battar in disguise, we see another example of madness: she cares about people and Desolations, but suggesting Death Rattles is not wise at all, rather quite opposite.

I'm still not for 100% on Chanarach Davar side, but if it's true...well, we see probably obedient, but not so brave woman.

About other Heralds I have doubts or no important information about their madness.

What do you think?

Point in favor of Chanarach being Shallan's mother. Lin Davar often brings up the concept of obeying, which fits your analysis of what would have happened to Chanarach. I think this is an interesting thing you have pointed out, and I think it ties into the fact that the Heralds could be influenced somewhat by how people view them since they are often compared to spren.

[NameIess]

The pattern falls apart with Taln, as he didn't break for 4 millennia, which definitely falls under his primary attribute, dependable.

[con1vm]

7 hours ago, That1Cellist said:

Point in favor of Chanarach being Shallan's mother. Lin Davar often brings up the concept of obeying, which fits your analysis of what would have happened to Chanarach. I think this is an interesting thing you have pointed out, and I think it ties into the fact that the Heralds could be influenced somewhat by how people view them since they are often compared to spren.

Yes, I agree with potential link between Heralds' decline and people perception of them; maybe that's one of points.

Also, when I searched for similar topics in case that I might be not the first with such a subject to discuss, I met an interesting theory about link between Radiant oaths and Divine Attributes; than I remembered this famous theory about Unmade somehow originating from Heralds. And I thought this: maybe - just maybe - Unmade and Attributes are connected? But it's another thing to think about...

[con1vm]

4 hours ago, Nameless said:

The pattern falls apart with Taln, as he didn't break for 4 millennia, which definitely falls under his primary attribute, dependable.

As I said, I have my doubts; Taln is one of the reasons to them. On the other hand, he's anything but dependable now. But neither he's resourceful, yes, and it's a weak point of my musings.

Another weak point is Jezrien: yes, he wasn't a protector of any sort when he was Ahu, but neither a leader, even to beggars - and my main thought was about missing Primary Attribute and corrupted Secondary. Maybe - just maybe - we just don't know something important about him, or he was hit by madness stronger than others, but yes, it's a major theory hole right now.

[That1Cellist he/him]

10 hours ago, con1vm said:

As I said, I have my doubts; Taln is one of the reasons to them. On the other hand, he's anything but dependable now. But neither he's resourceful, yes, and it's a weak point of my musings.

Another weak point is Jezrien: yes, he wasn't a protector of any sort when he was Ahu, but neither a leader, even to beggars - and my main thought was about missing Primary Attribute and corrupted Secondary. Maybe - just maybe - we just don't know something important about him, or he was hit by madness stronger than others, but yes, it's a major theory hole right now.

Something I've always thought as odd, is that at Aharietiam, we see Jezrien and Kelek. Then, when we see them later, their madness seems much worse. Especially Jezrien, as he at least seems functional then, but when he talks to Dalinar, he is entirely broken down. Maybe Kelek was the same the entire time, but I doubt it. It's something I haven't seen many people try to account for. Additionally, Jezrien, as king of the Heralds, may have felt much more guilt from leaving Taln, and so degraded to a worse state than the others. Taln, on the other hand, was the only Oathpact member left, and so could have special consequences as a result of that.

[cometaryorbit]

I think Taln is a different case than the other Heralds since he kept to the Oathpact. I think his soul* is more worn away and replaced with Investiture, like the Fused who are nonfunctional. Whereas the other Heralds have kind of twisted themselves by betraying their Oath while being essentially made of Honor Investiture, so they're twisted but highly functional.

(Except Jezrien, I guess. He is a problem for any theory.)

*or perhaps Cognitive Aspect; they benefit from Radiants swearing oaths nearby or Dalinar's perpendicularity, which suggests to me that the Heralds have damaged Cognitive and intact Spiritual, and a stronger link to the Spiritual helps by bypassing the Cognitive damage.

On 8/27/2022 at 8:15 AM, That1Cellist said:

Something I've always thought as odd, is that at Aharietiam, we see Jezrien and Kelek. Then, when we see them later, their madness seems much worse. Especially Jezrien, as he at least seems functional then, but when he talks to Dalinar, he is entirely broken down. Maybe Kelek was the same the entire time, but I doubt it. It's something I haven't seen many people try to account for.

One of the Heralds does say something to the effect of "we're getting worse aren't we? We shouldn't be getting worse", iirc.

IMO they thought they would not get worse at the time of abandoning the Oathpact since they thought their problem was strictly due to repeated torture and deaths/rebirths - so if they stopped dying and avoided torture they wouldn't get any worse.

But 4500 years of rejecting the Intent of the Investiture that had suffused/replaced their souls twisted them, plus the general wear and tear of so much time without Hoid's memory tricks.

[+Mzuka he/him]

On 8/27/2022 at 0:51 AM, Nameless said:

The pattern falls apart with Taln, as he didn't break for 4 millennia, which definitely falls under his primary attribute, dependable.

I think this is because Ishar shifted the weight of the entire Oathpact onto Taln; he became an extreme, almost caricature of his Divine Attribute, while the rest of the Herald's become the exact opposite.

With Jezrien, a beggar seems the antithesis of a leader (if a king is the epitome of it). And if you subscribe to the Liss = Vedel theory, that's a corruption of the Loving/Healing aspect. Pailiah is 'Learned', so maybe she's the woman in the asylum who keeps writing in her own faeces

Edited September 3, 2022 by Mzuka

[NameIess]

9 hours ago, Mzuka said:

I think this is because Ishar shifted the weight of the entire Oathpact onto Taln; he became an extreme, almost caricature of his Divine Attribute, while the rest of the Herald's become the exact opposite.

With Jezrien, a beggar seems the antithesis of a leader (if a king is the epitome of it). And if you subscribe to the Liss = Vedel theory, that's a corruption of the Loving/Healing aspect. Pailiah is 'Learned', so maybe she's the woman in the asylum who keeps writing in her own faeces

What about having the Oathpact shifted onto him would cause Taln to be insane in a different way? The other Heralds are highly invested Cognitive Shadows that have lived for about seven millennia and were tortured for thousands of years, Taln is a highly invested CS that has lived for seven thousand years and been tortured for thousands of years, the only difference is that he is currently connected to the Oathpact more strongly than the other Heralds.

[cometaryorbit]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:16 AM, Nameless said:

What about having the Oathpact shifted onto him would cause Taln to be insane in a different way?

Because he's still fully part of the Oathpact- maybe *more* strongly than when he was just one of ten equal participants (Dalinar sees one fully broken line [Jezrien's], one strong line [Taln's], and the rest weakened).

The Heralds are suffused by, maybe made of, Honor Investiture. Betraying the Oath that defines their very existence as Cognitive Shadows has got to have an effect.

I think Taln's madness is more like the nonfunctional Fused Venli meets. He hasn't changed his goals (his Desolation mantra), he's just not functional any more.

Whereas Nale and Ishar are very functional but working towards radically changed goals which are reverses of their Attributes (Just-> twist the law to justify killing people for unrelated reasons while technically following the letter of the law, Pious-> I'm a god).

Ash destroys art of herself (reverse Creative), Jezrien becomes a beggar (reverse Leading/kingship), Kalak can't make decisions (reverse Resolute).

[TheOtherDave]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:46 PM, con1vm said:

As I said, I have my doubts; Taln is one of the reasons to them. On the other hand, he's anything but dependable now. But neither he's resourceful, yes, and it's a weak point of my musings.

If anything, I think that’s circumstantial evidence in favor of your idea… Taln never broke, therefore he doesn’t get that kind of madness.