Yumiya Posted July 24, 2022 Report Share Posted July 24, 2022 In researching what might have caused the true desolation, I stumbled upon a theory. Hoid was once one of the heralds. Bear with me here... The Stonewards have a core tenet (per coppermind): "The core tenet of the order is be there when needed." And their gem stone is topaz (thinking of the first gem here). They enjoy exploring. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). Now, we know that Hoid was once called Topaz and that he took his name after the first gem. We also know that Hoid knows where he needs to be. He explores the cosmere and is trying to something very ambition around collecting all the types of investiture. Sounds VERY similar. If Hoid, in collecting investiture, needed to get access to Braize, what would he do. No perpendicularity there. Why, talk the high and powerful among the humans on Roshar into an oathpact. One that he would join. Oathpact is made and they all go to Braize. Hoid finds what he needs, but now needs a way off Braize. So he leaks to the fused, that members of the oathpact could choose to go back to Roshar. This led to the torturing. And someone breaks. Once back on Roshar, Hoid finds someone to replace him, Taln. (This next bit is tenuous.) Because the Heralds were not expecting torture, they broke quickly this first time. Salash's bodygaurd, who came to Roshar from Ashyn with the rest of refugees, is still alive. He is chosen to replace Hoid and the connection to Honor is shifted to him. (Potentially because Ash had a crush on her body guard). Hoid is then free to leave Roshar through a perpendicularity and the oathpact remains in place. Through the strength of Taln's resolve to protect, desolations became hundreds of years apart. When the Knights Radiant are formed, Taln uses Hoid as a role model when making the Stonewards, in honor of Hoid making the Oathpact exist in the first place. This Theory answers a couple of questions. When/why was Hoid on Roshar before, dancing with ancient singers and able to recognize fused. Why do the Stonewards sound so similar to Hoid. Why Taln is not a Herald, well not the original Herald. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Ati Enjoyer she/her Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 I always thought it was weird that the Heralds know Hoid by what seems to be his birth name: Midius. It would make sense if they know more about him from shared torture experience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DresdeMBM Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 While it may be true, I am not fully convinced, as in the Way of Kings he says he isn't a Herald or a Radiant. Knowing him, it could mean he wasn't one at the moment. We know that Taln wasn't meant to be a Herald when they were being chosen. You also have a point with the torture, maybe it was not a thing until some time passed, but by the nature of the Oathpact I think that trying to break the Heralds was known by Odium and Honor (it is a pact between two Shards, all the conditions would be stated, I think). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux he/him Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) Let's extrapolate out a bit from this concept. Taln and Ash are pretty much the only two individuals that Hoid shows actual reverence towards, and he seems to respect them. They also haven't tried to kill Hoid. If Hoid knowingly kicked off the torture of the Heralds... then his current treatment of Taln feels nauseating to me if there is no visible sign of remorse. I won't deny the possibility that Hoid could do this, but... that's low, even for someone ready to leave a planet to burn. Either the Heralds have never found out over millennia of torture, the Fused never told them that their friend betrayed them (which would be a logical torture component), have forgiven Hoid for millennia of torture (yeah right), or have forgotten. There's other components that may not make sense, such as why Hoid would have wanted to get to Braize before Odium was trapped there. Before the Oathpact, I'm assuming there wasn't the storm in the Cognitive Realm that prevented the Fused from escaping Braize, though I guess it could have been there. No, I'd guess that Hoid wouldn't have been trying to get to Braize, but maybe he was there to convince Tanavast to trap Rayse, or maybe he was looking into what the Nightwatcher could offer him. There's an option that he was a Herald, but didn't betray them so they have no ire towards him. Another option is that Hoid actually does view Taln as a role model, and Hoid based the idea off of Taln rather than the other way around. The Topaz connection and Stoneward Oath is suspicious though, I'll give you that. Edited July 25, 2022 by Duxredux clarity 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) Well, we know Taln was not supposed to even be a herald. Maybe Hoid was supposed to be the 10th, but since Hoid either did not or could not become one, Taln stepped in. I actually think the person that became Ba-Ado-Mishram was supposed to become a Herald, but Hoid as the mysterious 11th candidate also would be interesting. Edited July 26, 2022 by teknopathetic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegy he/him Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 The Stoneward oath similarity is indeed something very fascinating. Either way, the Heralds were meant to fight off Odium's armies, and Hoid can't hurt people, so I would be very surprised to see him fight with Taln's honorblade. I do think that the question who the original 10th one was is significant though (although it's probably that we've never even heard of that person yet - after all, they probably remained a simple mortal and died). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yumiya Posted July 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 27 minutes ago, Elegy said: Hoid can't hurt people, so I would be very surprised to see him fight with Taln's honorblade Have you read the preview chapters of secret project 4? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yumiya Posted July 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 49 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: I actually think the person that became Ba-Ado-Mishram was supposed to become a Herald I don't think unmade were once human, they are spren. Quote WeiryWriter Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Good guess. /r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015) Also, Kalak's journal implies that she is fundamentally different than Heralds. Heralds being humans, highly invested. Spren being fundamental forces of nature. Quote "I tell you; I write it. You must release the captive Unmade. She will not fade as I will. If you leave her as she is, she will remain imprisoned for eternity." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Yumiya said: Have you read the preview chapters of secret project 4? I read them Spoiler Wit doesn't physically hurt anyone in them that I can find when I look again? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Yumiya said: I don't think unmade were once human, they are spren. Also, Kalak's journal implies that she is fundamentally different than Heralds. Heralds being humans, highly invested. Spren being fundamental forces of nature. Well, is a Herald a splinter of Honour? The heralds are "spren" so to speak, and we know Ba-Ado-Mishram was different and also the most intelligent. Maybe she is smart because she actually is/was a person? Edited July 26, 2022 by teknopathetic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 20 hours ago, Casual Ati Enjoyer said: I always thought it was weird that the Heralds know Hoid by what seems to be his birth name: Midius. It would make sense if they know more about him from shared torture experience. Midius is not his birth name. Cephandrius is much older. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 26, 2022 Report Share Posted July 26, 2022 (edited) On 7/24/2022 at 8:34 PM, DresdeMBM said: by the nature of the Oathpact I think that trying to break the Heralds was known by Odium and Honor (it is a pact between two Shards, all the conditions would be stated, I think). At least according to the Stormfather, Honor did not know of/consider the idea that the Heralds could break - he thought it would work forever but was wrong. I think the idea of torturing the Heralds came up after the Oathpact was already in place and the Fused were imprisoned on Braize, but due to Honor's nature/Intent he couldn't really change the Oath already in place. EDIT : also, the Oathpact was not a pact between Shards. It was between the Heralds and Honor, and apparently the idea was the Heralds' ("they went to Honor, and he gave them this right, this oath") - probably Ishar. Odium's imprisonment was before the Oathpact. Edited July 26, 2022 by cometaryorbit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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