Nale's Spren/Oaths

[Guest]

So I was rereading Edgedancer recently and came across this little bit in the Nale/Lift battle that got me thinking. (Ch19 if you want to look it up yourself)

Quote

He put his hand to the side, summoning his Blade again as Lift frantically scrambled to free herself. The knife had sunk in deeply, and he kept one hand on it. 

The first bunch of times I read this were all pre-Oathbringer and RoW so I just assumed that he was summoning his Honorblade, and at the time Szeth's actions implied that an Honorblade required 10 heartbeats.  Except, we've learned something since then:

• Nale is (supposedly) of the 5th Ideal

So why the delay? It would make sense that his Spren would be right there with him, and Syl has shown that means instantaneous Blade. It has also been heavily implied that Nale's 2nd Blade is his Honorblade, which may or may not have a delay.

I think Nale killed his Spren, and when that happened is when Nale went to Shinovar and retrieved his Honorblade (Oathbringer ch106, Szeth mentions that Shinovar had 9, until 1 vanished long ago). Either because of Ego or Madness, he can't/won't admit what he did, and has been using the Honorblade to make the Skybreakers think he is of the 5th Ideal.

A few additional points:

• RoW ch77, Nale implies that he is sworn to not touch the Honorblades, or at the minimum Jezrien's Blade specifically.
• Nale is, AFAIK, never seen wearing Shardplate. Even in RoW when he takes an arrow to the eyeball, no Plate appears

The thing I can't figure out is this: how is he fooling the Highspren? 100% he could trick humans into thinking he's 5th Ideal, but I'd think that the other Highspren might want to talk to his Spren.

 

So yeah, what's everyone think about this? IMO it's obviously not conclusive, but I also don't feel that I'm making something out of nothing.

[cometaryorbit]

There's a WoB that Nale's highspren is okay with what Nale is doing, which I think confirms the spren is alive.

[offer]

The WoB

Quote

Stormlightning

How the heck is Nale's spren still with him? Is his spren as wacky as he is? Or is it dead, and he still carries it around?

Brandon Sanderson

Nale's spren is alive. The highspren... I would say "wacky" is probably a decent term for them. I would blame some of how Nale is acting more on the highspren. Obviously, it's partially being a Herald and all the things he's gone through, but they're all on board for this. So read that as you will.

Well, "all." The ones that are making Radiants of the Order are on board for it. You'll get to see Szeth interact with his just a little bit. There's not a ton of Szeth in this book, but you've got a few chapters. At least one, for sure. And he gets to interact with his spren, and you'll get a better picture of the highspren from that moment.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

[cometaryorbit]

Thank you! I'd forgotten it specifically confirmed that the highspren is alive.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

There's a WoB that Nale's highspren is okay with what Nale is doing, which I think confirms the spren is alive.

Dang, ok then. I really thought I'd found something.  Still doesn't explain the lack of Shardplate, but I suppose maybe Nale just doesn't need it.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 minute ago, LabRat said:

Dang, ok then. I really thought I'd found something.  Still doesn't explain the lack of Shardplate, but I suppose maybe Nale just doesn't need it.

Probably Brandon hiding it for szeth getting an Armor and all the cool properties it can have( i think only Windrunner shardplate can protect other people)

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Probably Brandon hiding it for szeth getting an Armor and all the cool properties it can have( i think only Windrunner shardplate can protect other people)

If you're right, then I hope every Shardplate gets a special ability, though I kinda hope you're wrong. I think it would be hilarious for Dalinar to suddenly be quintuple-coated in Shardplate when Szeth, Kaladin, Renarin, Adolin, and Jasnah all try to protect him from a surprise attack.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

14 hours ago, LabRat said:

If you're right, then I hope every Shardplate gets a special ability, though I kinda hope you're wrong. I think it would be hilarious for Dalinar to suddenly be quintuple-coated in Shardplate when Szeth, Kaladin, Renarin, Adolin, and Jasnah all try to protect him from a surprise attack.

I always wonder if jasnah could teleport like one person using shardplate. Like maybe just teleport to shadesmar. Probably what will happen is only Windrunners can give their shardplate to someone else since protection is their whole theme

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I think he just never summoned Shardplate or dismissed it long ago

He's never really needed it probably in all the years since the Recreance there haven't been people who can really threaten him in battle with his dual blades and his full command of two surges where NO ONE else outside of Shinovar even knew of surges

I assume he will wear it in a battle with Szeth at some point, but we'll see Skybreaker armor from Szeth's POV as has been pointed out. Honestly I assume at this point that Szeth/Nale will end up fighting for leadership of the Skybreakers, though how Szeth could win that fight... ?
 

Though, now I'm wondering if Szeth will also have dual blades potentially. He should be able to summon his skybreaker spren as a blade at this or some future point, and he'll also have Nightblood

...sorry for that rambling digression, though I suppose the OP has been answered well enough

It does make me curious if there is a schism in the Skybreakers between those who support Nale and his plan vs others who do want to bond human-supporting KR though

Edited July 21, 2022 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Guest]

On 7/21/2022 at 0:24 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Honestly I assume at this point that Szeth/Nale will end up fighting for leadership of the Skybreakers, though how Szeth could win that fight... ?
.......

It does make me curious if there is a schism in the Skybreakers between those who support Nale and his plan vs others who do want to bond human-supporting KR though

According to Nale himself, a large number of the Skybreakers have sworn to Nale as their Ideal. That's not a schism, those members CAN'T go against Nale and they CAN'T be convinced or reasoned with. Those who swore a different 3rd Oath can make a free choice, but we don't know how many there are and I suspect they were the first ones Odium sent on suicide missions.

 

My suspicion is that either they are going to find a way to turn Nale, gaining all the Skybreakers; Dalinar is going to lose his challenge, possibly putting Nale under Dalinar's command in Odium's army; or Szeth is going to personally Assassin-in-White his way through every single Skybreaker on Roshar, which I am 100% certain he is capable of and I suspect doing it will fully break his mind.

Option one seems the easiest, which is weird to say but if they can get Ishar on-side I think is absolutely possible. Especially given the inconsistencies in Nale's reasoning for following the Singers.

IMO option 2 is what I think is most likely to happen. Odium NEEDS a true win, as right now he's starting to look like a punching bag more than a threat. Also, this is end of Book 5 of Part 1, so I suspect we're looking at an Empire Strikes Back type of ending where things have gone badly so Part 2 has something to do.

Option 3 would be AWESOME to read, especially since I suspect Szeth will be returning from Shinovar with at least a few spare Honorblades. I think this option extremely unlikely.

[+robardin he/him]

A Herald (or anybody, I suppose) who has bonded their Honorblade does not need ten heartbeats to dismiss or to summon it; we can infer this because Syl says the delay "is primarily something of the dead", to sync a dead spren's essence to a living person to be able to manifest in the Physical realm, and an Honorblade is not a spren made physical but the very metal of Honor (Tanavastium).

We can see this because Tezim is able to fight off five Windrunners at once in Rhythm of War, including skillful use of the technique of "skepping" his Blade, dismissing it and summoning it back again nearly instantaneously, as a way of evading a parrying move. Something the Radiants could only do with living Blades, and have only just begun to experiment with, but he has thousands of years of practice doing.

We can therefore assume that Nale could also "skep" if he wanted to, with either of his two Blades.

However, that scene with Lift was not the first time we saw Nale summon his Blade (presumably his Honorblade) in such a way that it "dropped" into his hand, the way a dead Blade would do. And he had just enough time to monologue a bit - ten heartbeats - before delivering his blow of execution to Ym, and each time he'd tried to get Lift as well.

Sure, part of it could be that monologuing is the closest Nale gets to having a normal conversation with a mortal nowadays, but my guess is that over thousands of years of masking the fact that the Skybreakers were still extant, he and all the other Skybreakers of the 3+ Ideal have practiced delay-summoning to pass their Blades as "being like all the others" to the point where it's ingrained. It's one thing to leave Azish ministers wondering "when did we start letting marshals requisition Shardblades?" and another for them also to be wondering, "...and how come he was able to summon it back again impossibly quickly, and upside down or vertical or in a different shape, etc.?!"

Which is also the explanation for why Szeth needed ten heartbeats in TWoK: he thought he needed them. (Which may tell us something about when or how the Shin acquired custodianship of the Honorblades?)

Edited July 25, 2022 by robardin