Re-thinking compounding

[Frustration]

Compounding is often pointed to as the pinicle of the metalic arts, and with good reason.

However I've been thinking about it recenty and I have to wonder if we might be over-exagerating its power. In general people think of compounding as using allomancy to multiply the amount of a feruchemical atribute that a metalmind has. But as I think about it that doesn't really work out.

Compounding is using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy, but it doesn't make allomancy stronger. You still get the same investiture out by burning 1g of regular steel as you do 1g of a competly full steelmind, the only difference is how the investiture manifests. So therefore once you have enough of a feruchemical charge in a metal to compound the entire time it's burning, there is no point to adding more of an attribute to it, as you won't get any benefit from it.

So it would actually be better to compound with mostly empty metalminds rather than completly full ones.

[cometaryorbit]

I agree that compounding isn't as limitless as people sometimes say. Its still limited by quantity of metal to burn, and size of metalminds to store in. Basically compounding means you can have 100% full metalminds all the time as long as you have enough of the right metal to burn.

Which is really powerful- you can store a lot in a fairly small metalmind, we see Wax becoming briefly heavier than a building- but far from unlimited.  No Fullborn becoming black holes through weight compounding or reaching relativistic speeds through speed compounding. Marasi briefly goes supersonic with the Bands, it seems, but that's likely near a practical upper limit.

I don't know whether the tenfold multiplication of attribute we see quoted in-world is literally true or just a rough estimate; probably the latter, as you say the amount of attribute the compounder gets should be determined byAllomantic strength.

However if the metalmind is too low charge I think they only get the compounding effect briefly, then the metal is no longer a metalmind and the regular allomantic effect happens.

[therunner]

I don't think it works that way (for some reason).

While the kind of power you get is determined just by the F-charge, the amount of Investiture you get when burning it does seem to matter, otherwise you would not get 'tenfold' the amount of stored attribute when burning the entire metalmind, which is regularly mentioned in books. So burning 1g of mostly empty (1% full) metalmind will give you 100x less of the attribute then when burning 1g of 100% full metalmind.

Why that happens is a good question, as it is the same 'metal'. It could be related to Connection, as Mistborn/Mistings less connected to Harmony/Preservation get less out of metals, so in this case the charge could act as that sort-of connection. I.e. denser F-charge in metalmind results in stronger Connection to be exploited and leads to greater amount of Investiture drawn from Shard.

 

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However if the metalmind is too low charge I think they only get the compounding effect briefly, then the metal is no longer a metalmind and the regular allomantic effect happens.

@cometaryorbit I don't think that would happen, as the feruchemical charge is through the entire metalmind, as it diffuses (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13238). So if you would burn a small part, it should consume only proportional amount of F-charge.

Edited July 17, 2022 by therunner

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

While the kind of power you get is determined just by the F-charge, the amount of Investiture you get when burning it does seem to matter, otherwise you would not get 'tenfold' the amount of stored attribute when burning the entire metalmind,

It should be noted that both characters to say "Tenfold" are unable to compound themselves, and scientific classification of magic systems won't happen until era 3.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why that happens is a good question, as it is the same 'metal'. It could be related to Connection, as Mistborn/Mistings less connected to Harmony/Preservation get less out of metals, so in this case the charge could act as that sort-of connection. I.e. denser F-charge in metalmind results in stronger Connection to be exploited and leads to greater amount of Investiture drawn from Shard.

I don't think that works, as the more of an attribute you draw out of a metalmind at once the more you lose. The more stormlight you hold the faster it leaks out etc. If that trend were to hold you would get even less power the denser the feruchemical charge.

[offer]

I think that even with full metalminds you will get more by compounding since you are using both the investiture from the metalmind and investiture from Preservation because of the allomancy.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, offer said:

I think that even with full metalminds you will get more by compounding since you are using both the investiture from the metalmind and investiture from Preservation because of the allomancy.

Yes, but you aren't getting any extra over just compounding with a mostly empty metalmind.

So let's say we have two compounders, one stores 5 minutes in one metalmind and one stores 1 minute in one metalmind and 4 in another.

Compounder A compounds their 5 minute metalmind and gets 14 minutes, while Compounder B compounds their 1 minute metalmind and gets 10 minutes plus the four in their other metalmind, bringing them to 14 minutes.

[offer]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but you aren't getting any extra over just compounding with a mostly empty metalmind.

So let's say we have two compounders, one stores 5 minutes in one metalmind and one stores 1 minute in one metalmind and 4 in another.

Compounder A compounds their 5 minute metalmind and gets 14 minutes, while Compounder B compounds their 1 minute metalmind and gets 10 minutes plus the four in their other metalmind, bringing them to 14 minutes.

Ohh... That makes a lot of sense.

I misunderstood you initially.

[NameIess]

This doesn't really match up with what we've seen. apparently even a small bead of Atiu is enough to age someone back into childhood 'if used right'.

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Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

Marsh has used one bag of Atium to survive for 300 years. At this point, he has to be making himself at least 250 years younger at all times. That's 8760 hours a year. (approximately, not sure if Scadrial and earth have exactly the same year length) Factoring in diminishing returns, he has to be using at least 500 stored years to make himself 250 years younger. How does he get that much F-Atium if compounding just gives out a single rate?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

This doesn't really match up with what we've seen. apparently even a small bead of Atiu is enough to age someone back into childhood 'if used right'.

Marsh has used one bag of Atium to survive for 300 years. At this point, he has to be making himself at least 250 years younger at all times. That's 8760 hours a year. (approximately, not sure if Scadrial and earth have exactly the same year length) Factoring in diminishing returns, he has to be using at least 500 stored years to make himself 250 years younger. How does he get that much F-Atium if compounding just gives out a single rate?

Atium also powers itself rather than through Preservation. And it's increadibly investiture dense to start with.

 

But assuming you are right, how does allomancy become more powerful as the metalmind's store increases?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Atium also powers itself rather than through Preservation. And it's increadibly investiture dense to start with.

 

But assuming you are right, how does allomancy become more powerful as the metalmind's store increases?

The metal's connection to Preservation grows as you store more Investiture from yourself (Which has a connection to Preservation) in it? I don't know how compounding works for certain, but I do know that compounders are a lot more powerful than you often make them out to be.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

The metal's connection to Preservation grows as you store more Investiture from yourself (Which has a connection to Preservation) in it? I don't know how compounding works for certain, but I do know that compounders are a lot more powerful than you often make them out to be.

Ignoring all previous interactions reguarding compounders, do you have any reasons for why the analysis in this thread is wrong?

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Ignoring all previous interactions reguarding compounders, do you have any reasons for why the analysis in this thread is wrong?

I don't have any evidence, other than the fact that it seems unintuitive that a metalmind with more of a charge will not give more of a trait. However, I think this can probably be explained by an extrapolation of this WoB:

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Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)  

According to this WoB, invested metals take more effort to burn than uninvested ones. So, if we assume that this carries over for burning them normally, then more invested metalminds would burn more slowly, meaning that they give more of the trait. So more investiture in a metalmind = more efficient usage of metal.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I don't have any evidence, other than the fact that it seems unintuitive that a metalmind with more of a charge will not give more of a trait. However, I think this can probably be explained by an extrapolation of this WoB:

According to this WoB, invested metals take more effort to burn than uninvested ones. So, if we assume that this carries over for burning them normally, then more invested metalminds would burn more slowly, meaning that they give more of the trait. So more investiture in a metalmind = more efficient usage of metal.

It could also be that leeching will drain a metalmind of its stores before destroying the metal.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It could also be that leeching will drain a metalmind of its stores before destroying the metal.

That's possible, but leeching won't normally work on feruchemical stores unless they're being actively tapped:

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Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[Lego Mistborn]

If you're not getting any extra investiture out of the metalmind, why would you compound to begin with? 

Disclaimer that I don't actually understand compounding.

9 hours ago, Nameless said:

According to this WoB, invested metals take more effort to burn than uninvested ones. So, if we assume that this carries over for burning them normally, then more invested metalminds would burn more slowly, meaning that they give more of the trait. So more investiture in a metalmind = more efficient usage of metal.

This stems off my first question, if you don't get that extra stored investiture, why would burning these metals be more efficient?

Edit: Nevermind on this all, I forgot allomancy used entails as a key, not a source. This would mean that it's more efficient. (Duralumin sounds like it could really benefit from compounding)

Edited July 18, 2022 by Ta'veren Kaladin

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think the 'one bead of atium can reverse age back to your youth' quote is very useful in comparing models of compounding - Allomantic metals have very different "power levels" and burn rates.

There's no clear measure we have of how much Investiture it takes to reverse age with Atium compounding vs. push/pull on metals with Iron/Steel or hear Investiture with bronze - with some things like an Ironpull/Steelpush or Pewter strength enhancement you could come up with an energy equivalent in real world physics terms, but reversing age, sensing Investiture, etc. not so much.

I mean in RL physics to dilate time as much as you see from bendalloy/cadmium you'd need near black hole gravity wells or near light speeds, but I don't think those Allomancers are dealing with planet breaking levels of Investiture.

And atium is a god metal anyway and contains its own power, perhaps atium compounding gives you both Preservation Investiture based on your allomantic strength plus the Ruin Investiture in the metal itself.

Edited July 19, 2022 by cometaryorbit