Jedi VS Radiants

[Elegy he/him]

To clear up one thing first, I think a fair comparison in general is a hard one to make for a lot of reasons. (Like, would the Force even work on neutral ground? It's based on the premise that the Force surrounds everything, so outside of the Star Wars universe, nothing of this is possible since the Force doesn't surround anything, so noone could use it anyway.) So there can be a long and thorough discussion on this, but I'm personally not that eager for that - not because I think that these discussions shouldn't be had (they should!), but because I've got a bunch of other things to do at the moment  But a few things to clear up what I meant before without wanting to venture too much further into the comparison:

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Eh, you strip quite a lot of context from that scene. He gets defeated by an angry youth (who is his son, whom he does not want to kill at all, remember Anakin is unhealthily fixated on his family), only after that youth who is his equal in potential taps Dark side and catches him off-guard. Vader never wanted to kill Luke, at most he wanted to turn him.
He would have no reason to hold back, or indeed have any sentimental feelings towards anyone from Roshar.

Fair, but I still think that Vader is really obviously outmatched in this scene, like, he shouldn't have that much of a problem ... but anyway, point taken! It's not a central point to my line of thinking anyway though. Like, I wasn't trying to argue that Kaladin in Words of Radiance would have actually beaten Vader, it was just an extreme example to show that power levels in Star Wars are vague. (And I still think that Vader as the killing machine he's portrayed as nowadays would never have lost that fight, be it against his son or not.)

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I would say that appealing to lower consistency of the Star Wars is simply dodging the question, not really answering the thread

I disagree with this, because the question is asking to compare two things, and in order compare them, they both have to be defined first. And when one of the two is (relatively) clearly defined and one of them is not clearly defined at all, it's not only fair, but necessary to question how far an argument for either side can even go. It's not dodging the question, it's reflecting on what the premise of the question is, which is the best way to lay the groundwork for answering it. And in my first post, I was trying to say that you would definitely need these gray areas (which only exist because of these inconsistencies) to argue that a Radiant (not having these gray areas, but being more clearly defined) could lose - the inconsistencies give the Jedi wiggle room that makes the comparison not really fair. I think that's important to point out.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I agree that it is a thing, however that does not simply allow you to invalidate stronger canonical feats just because.

That is definitely true, and I wasn't trying to say that it invalidates those feats - but it certainly puts a major question mark on a lot of them, in my opinion. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't count, but that we should be cautious with just saying that this or that character can do a bunch of things that they actually can do in some iterations and can't in others. Like I said, it's something to be aware of. It's why this question is way more complicated than that Mistborn vs Radiant question that keeps popping up. But yeah, of course they should be considered, but cautiously, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Well, so far we have not actually seen what lead Surgebinding to destroy planets. If it requires usage of Dawnshards, it is outside of scope of this thread. If not, then yes all Jedi and Sith are outclassed, but we do not know yet.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that Radiants are better because they might potentially be able to destroy planets, this part of my comment was actually not meant as a part of the direct comparison (but I guess that wasn't really clear). I was just trying to say that the scope of things magic in the Cosmere is able to do is by design way beyond what the Force in Star Wars is shown to do, in general. Brandon tells a different style of story, where humans can become gods. That's not something that Star Wars does, and it's good that way. In a similar way, a lot of Shounen anime character could easily defeat Radiants of any Ideal, probably Heralds, probably anything but Shards, because over the course of 1000 chapters, they just become mind-boggingly powerful so they can, I don't know, destroy planets with one punch or something like that. It doesn't make one story better than the other (I'd even argue that those power levels usually lead to bad writing), but it's different styles of stories and Star Wars characters are not designed to be able to keep up with Stormlight characters.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Elegy

[therunner he/him]

22 minutes ago, Elegy said:

To clear up one thing first, I think a fair comparison in general is a hard one to make for a lot of reasons. (Like, would the Force even work on neutral ground? It's based on the premise that the Force surrounds everything, so outside of the Star Wars universe, nothing of this is possible since the Force doesn't surround anything, so noone could use it anyway.) So there can be a long and thorough discussion on this, but I'm personally not that eager for that - not because I think that these discussions shouldn't be had (they should!), but because I've got a bunch of other things to do at the moment  But a few things to clear up what I meant before without wanting to venture too much further into the comparison:

I agree that the comparison is hard, but mainly due to vaugness of the force.
I mean, similarly to your question 'Would the force work on neutral ground' we should ask 'Would invested abilities work on neutral ground? Would cognitive and spiritual realms exists there? If not, what happens to spren (and by extension Radiants)?'  , so I would say that the 'neutral setting' by definition presupposes that abilities work as we would expect in their own world, with some caveats when they interact directly (i.e. is force-sensitivity similar to being invested for purpose of resitting investiture? does Shardplate shield from Mind-trick? ).

25 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Fair, but I still think that Vader is really obviously outmatched in this scene, like, he shouldn't have that much of a problem ... but anyway, point taken! It's not a central point to my line of thinking anyway though. Like, I wasn't trying to argue that Kaladin in Words of Radiance would have actually beaten Vader, it was just an extreme example to show that power levels in Star Wars are vague. (And I still think that Vader as the killing machine he's portrayed as nowadays would never have lost that fight, be it against his son or not.)

Fair, I personally think that Vader could still have that much of a problem, even if it is because Luke is well 'rawer' form of everything Jedi hoped Anakin would be + empowered by Dark side a bit. But it is a matter of personal interpretation how much should Vader be inhibited by his conflicting desires, so we can agree to disagree I think

28 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I disagree with this, because the question is asking to compare two things, and in order compare them, they both have to be defined first. And when one of the two is (relatively) clearly defined and one of them is not clearly defined at all, it's not only fair, but necessary to question how far an argument for either side can even go. It's not dodging the question, it's reflecting on what the premise of the question is, which is the best way to lay the groundwork for answering it. And in my first post, I was trying to say that you would definitely need these gray areas (which only exist because of these inconsistencies) to argue that a Radiant (not having these gray areas, but being more clearly defined) could lose - the inconsistencies give the Jedi wiggle room that makes the comparison not really fair. I think that's important to point out.

That is definitely true, and I wasn't trying to say that it invalidates those feats - but it certainly puts a major question mark on a lot of them, in my opinion. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't count, but that we should be cautious with just saying that this or that character can do a bunch of things that they actually can do in some iterations and can't in others. Like I said, it's something to be aware of. It's why this question is way more complicated than that Mistborn vs Radiant question that keeps popping up. But yeah, of course they should be considered, but cautiously, in my opinion.

I would push back a bit on this. I agree that to compare, things need to be defined. However, Star Wars abilities are well-defined, even if the characters (due to the way stories are told out of order) don't always display what is (retroactively) the best tool for the job from our perspective, the abilities themselves are not inconsistent at all, only their usage at most.
And on Cosmere end we have Bondsmithing, which is far more vague than what can Jedi do, so it is not like everything in Cosmere is without gray areas to be mindful of.

So my stance is that any demonstrated ability that is not clearly relatively unique (i.e. force lighting, psychometry) is fair game, even if we do not understand exact limitations. I don't think saying that Jedi can learn Force speed is inconsistent with anything really. It is (relatively) well-defined ability, that is accessible even to older Padawans. Same goes for their minor precognition, it is repeatedly stated that the reason killing a Jedi is so hard is that even before they are trained they can instinctively sense danger and avoid it.

I don't think my answers really relied on anything that gray, the most outrageous thing was Vader's recent feat, but remember we have seen Jedi lift a multi-tone spaceshift even before, so this is merely a shift of scale not of quality. This alone tells us that lifting someone in Shardplate would not be difficult, and if the plate interfered then you can simply drop ten ton boulder on the Radiant.

36 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that Radiants are better because they might potentially be able to destroy planets, this part of my comment was actually not meant as a part of the direct comparison (but I guess that wasn't really clear). I was just trying to say that the scope of things magic in the Cosmere is able to do is by design way beyond what the Force in Star Wars is shown to do, in general. Brandon tells a different style of story, where humans can become gods. That's not something that Star Wars does, and it's good that way. In a similar way, a lot of Shounen anime character could easily defeat Radiants of any Ideal, probably Heralds, probably anything but Shards, because over the course of 1000 chapters, they just become mind-boggingly powerful so they can, I don't know, destroy planets with one punch or something like that. It doesn't make one story better than the other (I'd even argue that those power levels usually lead to bad writing), but it's different styles of stories and Star Wars characters are not designed to be able to keep up with Stormlight characters.

Well, we are talking about Radiants (and others with Surgebinding) not Cosmere in general, and most Radiants will never be near to becoming gods, nor near destroying planets. Some exceptional ones maybe, but I doubt most of them would get to that point on their own (i.e. without Bondsmith shenanigans or Dawnshards).
Additionally, you have similar outliers in SW Legends as well, so I don't think this is as strong an argument.

[Rune he/him]

I’m going to have to say that for the best of the best against each other it will have to be Jedi/Sith that come out at top simply because of the force.  If this included legend Star Wars then there is absolutely no contest at all, the force can utterly destroy everything. But if it’s only canon then it’s much closer but the raw power afforded by the force to someone like Darth Vader is enough to take out even the best. Assuming that the force can effect shardplate like normal matter (I.e. being able to move it and such) then Vader can literally rip it apart and tear the person to shreds physically.  This is a bit unfair considering that the force is a soft system and surgebinding is a hard magic system which allows for Star Wars to take it to the extremes (as seen in legends where people can literally create and control black holes, consume all the life on a planet, become immortal in a variety of ways, defeat armies of naturally force resistant aliens, to name but a few).  Since though there is no rules against the legends aspect of Star Wars lore I’m going to have to say that it is absolutely a Jedi/Sith win.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Rune
Extra info

[DiePie]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that being a Stormlight savant might also give minor precognition (RoW spoilers):

Spoiler

"Despite earnestly trying, none could land a blow. It was as if... as if they were trying to hit where Ishar was while he was able to move in anticipation of where they would be." -page 1157, RoW

And if Vader is a nigh-unstoppable killing machine who is so far above the power level of the average Radiant that a fight would be no contest that means I can throw one of the Heralds at him right? Besides, Nale is a Radiant so he counts... technically.

Also re-reading that chapter means we can put an "unchained" Bondsmith against him. Under those conditions it comes down to how close the Bondsmith could get to Vader. If the Bondsmith could touch him I think the phrasing works out that Jedi have a "Connection" to the force, and that since the armor is generally seen as part of Vader, it wouldn't prevent the Bondsmith from messing with connection.

But getting back on track, it seems that getting close is the problem. A Radiant souped up on Stormlight would be faster and more maneuverable than Vader, I don't know much about Star Wars, but from what I've seen the Sith whose fighting styles are being fast/maneuverable would be less maneuverable than your average Windrunner. Combine that with the ability to take multiple hits before going down and the fact that Shardblades can take any shape (below a certain size I assume), and once a Radiant got within arms reach a fight would be over in their favor.

So what it gets down to is how much force can a force user apply (I guess I'm going off Vader here since he's the extreme, and examples of him have already been given), and if the Radiant could heal themselves for the time it takes for Vader to tire himself out, and no longer apply that force (so the Radiant can counter-attack)... Which I guess brings me back to where the rest of the conversation is, that it depends on how strong the force-user really is.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that being a Stormlight savant might also give minor precognition (RoW spoilers):

I'd say that Ishar's combat skill is a result of millennia of combat experience combined with amped-up reflexes from his heraldness, not precognition.

[DiePie]

21 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'd say that Ishar's combat skill is a result of millennia of combat experience combined with amped-up reflexes from his heraldness, not precognition.

It felt to me that an entire paragraph being spent on that idea meant that it was more than just a simile, if it had been one line then I would say the same. You're probably right, but I like my theory that the heralds are all Stormlight Savants.

[Rg2045]

19 minutes ago, DiePie said:

It felt to me that an entire paragraph being spent on that idea meant that it was more than just a simile, if it had been one line then I would say the same. You're probably right, but I like my theory that the heralds are all Stormlight Savants.

But they didn’t use stormlight, (powered directly by honor) and WoB says stormlight heals in the spiritual realm and prevents savants sooo yeah maybe? 

[Letryx13]

It's kind of hard to say for me.  I don't think it would be as clear cut as some people think. Yes, shardplate would presumably block a lightsaber, and the radiant's healing would make them very difficult to stop.  I think their automatic recovery is what makes the especially formidable, more than anything else. But on the other hand, what some force users like Yoda and Vader can move with the Force is ridiculous. 

I lean toward radiants being the winners, especially since BondSmiths could probably just steal their connection to the Force and instantly win.  Other surge binding like soulcasting would be useful, but not a guaranteed victory. I think a force connection would count as being highly invested, resisting soul casting.  And Jedi have their own abilities, are are warriors trained their whole lives, which not all radiants are.  But the radiants' endurance seem like they'd be able to overcome Jedi, more times than not.   

[Rune he/him]

17 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I lean toward radiants being the winners, especially since BondSmiths could probably just steal their connection to the Force and instantly win.

The only problem is that they would need to get in close to do that and the Force can easily be used to keep them away.

 Also most of the examples of the most powerful Force users seems to be Darth Vader but in reality it’s actually Luke.  This is important because It has been shown that Luke can control and create LITERAL BLACK HOLES.  No amount of healing can prevent death from that, and they couldn’t escape if they could.  It’s true that Radiants would do much better in close combat and I think that if it turned to fighting with their weapons then the Radients would win.  The Force is the Jedi/Sith’s strength.  And yes, it is hard to position a black hole but that example is just to show an aspect of the Force’s power.
The only way a radiant could win would  be if their opponent didn’t figure out a way to deal with their extreme healing.  Also, a Force user could just wait for them to drain their stormlight but only if they figured it out.

 All this only applying to the best against the best-the average radiant would destroy the average Force user.

 

 Also, is this limited to just the Jedi and Sith or can it be any Force user?

Edited June 22, 2022 by Rune

[NameIess]

The thing with using Luke or Vader for the fight is that it’s incredibly unfair. You can’t take the best of the best Jedi and use the best of their feats. Of course Luke and Vader will win against any Radiant barring Bondsmiths manipulating their connection to the force. They could also do the same for just about any Jedi or sith. It’s not a fair comparison.

[Letryx13]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

The thing with using Luke or Vader for the fight is that it’s incredibly unfair. You can’t take the best of the best Jedi and use the best of their feats. Of course Luke and Vader will win against any Radiant barring Bondsmiths manipulating their connection to the force. They could also do the same for just about any Jedi or sith. It’s not a fair comparison.

Exactly.  Dalinar's fight with Ishar proved that a BondSmith is capable of truly incredible things.  Even Odium (the old one) was worried about what might happen if Dalinar learned to use the full extent of his powers.  Saying Luke/Vader/Yoda/Palpatine are unbeatable against most radiants is unreasonable.

If surge binding is capable of nuclear power, as RoW hints at, then most likely BondSmiths are capable of it.  I'm not as knowledgeable about Star Wars as some, but very few force users, if any, could be capable of stopping that level of power.

As for who would win with BondSmiths against the most powerful forces users such as Luke/Vader/Yoda/Palpatine, that's harder to say.  We don't know the upper limits of a BondSmith's power, but if Odium fears Dalinar's potential, that says a lot.  On the other hand, being able to pull entire space ships with the force says a lot about the upper class level of force users, and supposedly some high end Jedi could do more. Who knows would would win that fight.

My opinion earlier is more about the average force user against the average radiant, in which I lean toward the radiants.

[Rune he/him]

22 hours ago, Nameless said:

The thing with using Luke or Vader for the fight is that it’s incredibly unfair. You can’t take the best of the best Jedi and use the best of their feats. Of course Luke and Vader will win against any Radiant barring Bondsmiths manipulating their connection to the force. They could also do the same for just about any Jedi or sith. It’s not a fair comparison.

The comparison I’m making is between the best from Star Wars and the best from the Cosmere (as we know it). I pointed out earlier that yes, it is unfair because the Force is a soft magic system so it’s up to  the author for what they can do at a given time. Also, Luke has done many extremely powerful things multiple times, I just gave the example of the Black Hole as it was on my mind but there are many other incredible feats which are not outside the norm for Luke.

16 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

On the other hand, being able to pull entire space ships with the force says a lot about the upper class level of force users, and supposedly some high end Jedi could do more. Who knows would would win that fight.

My opinion earlier is more about the average force user against the average radiant, in which I lean toward the radiants.

Some Sith were capable of devouring all the life forms on entire planets (though this is only one specific Sith).

 Yes I completely agree that when you take averages, Radiants win hands down cause the average Force user is very weak but the average Radiant has access to abilities that don’t take any skill to learn and make them nigh unkillible (I’m looking at selfhealing).

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Rune said:

The comparison I’m making is between the best from Star Wars and the best from the Cosmere (as we know it). I pointed out earlier that yes, it is unfair because the Force is a soft magic system so it’s up to  the author for what they can do at a given time. Also, Luke has done many extremely powerful things multiple times, I just gave the example of the Black Hole as it was on my mind but there are many other incredible feats which are not outside the norm for Luke.

Some Sith were capable of devouring all the life forms on entire planets (though this is only one specific Sith).

 Yes I completely agree that when you take averages, Radiants win hands down cause the average Force user is very weak but the average Radiant has access to abilities that don’t take any skill to learn and make them nigh unkillible (I’m looking at selfhealing).

Completely agree with all three points. It's very difficult to directly compare hard magic systems and soft ones because soft systems have far fewer rules. It's why I prefer medium and hard systems, since it's much harder to just have someone pull of a miracle for the story.  The writer has to build toward it, like with the ideals.

Doesn't surprise me that some Sith can do crazy stuff like that. Although, I did some research, and apparently it is possible to temporarily or permanently cut off a force users connection to the Force without direct physical contact, which I bet a fully realized BondSmith could do.  I don't think there's any way to predict who'd win a fight like that, except that whoever struck first would probably win.

And definitely, it's the self healing that tips the scales in the Radiants' favor.  Without that, and/or Shardplate, an archer/ambusher could drop a Radiant with a well aimed shot to the head. Difficult, as Kaladin proved, but much easier than stopping someone who can recover from almost any conventional wound.