When They Cry

[Eluvianii]

I see. More powerful than the detective proclamation certainly.

Also about whether Lion is Kinzo's son, would that be a rafo question?

[aneonfoxtribute]

Just now, Eluvianii said:

I see. More powerful than the detective proclamation certainly.

Also about whether Lion is Kinzo's son, would that be a rafo question?

Not necessarily more powerful. Just different.

That be a RAFO

[Eluvianii]

Had to do some errands so I could only read one chapter today. My words turned prophetic a lot earlier than expected. It was an eventful chapter though.

Dude, what a mess. The Italians were no saints, but they were backed into a corner here. Choice didn't matter, they lose either way. However, Kinzo's superior really took an arm there. Like, take 10%, you're still set for life. Asking for 50% is unnecessarily greedy but, well, at least you're both "even". But killing them all so they get nothing I can't put a word on.

"Aha, so they don't want our country to take possession of the gold" yeah Sherlock, why is that a surprise?

Greed aside, I really like how the word 'witch' came to be here. For such a bloody story, that's a really sweet beginning.

I was always a bit reluctant to believe the first Beatrice would live in such isolation willingly, but with the full context, it really seems like this was the only way to find happiness for both of them. It's still tragic, even more than I originally thought even, but in a different way. It's easier to accept now.

I will also have to take back yesterday's theory. I genuinely believe Kinzo wouldn't. Even if his madness was strong and he was 100% convinced his daughter was Beatrice reincarnated, he would wait until her memories returned. And naturally, that never happened. Even better, we are told that he most likely knew in the back of his mind that it was just a delusion on his part. Knowing that he really wouldn't.

I also have to say, amazing job from Beatrice's voice actress. Three different tones of voice with their accents.

Heh, I remember that 13 Sentinels meme. Protagonized by Chihiro Morimura, Chihiro Morimura, Chihiro Morimura, and Chihiro Morimura. Well, here we have Umineko When They Cry, protagonized by Beatrice, Beatrice, Beatrice, and Beatrice.

 

 

Edited April 19 by Eluvianii

[aneonfoxtribute]

1 minute ago, Eluvianii said:

Heh, I remember that 13 Sentinels meme. Protagonized by Chihiro Morimura, Chihiro Morimura, Chihiro Morimura, and Chihiro Morimura. Well, here we have Umineko When They Cry, protagonized by Beatrice, Beatrice, Beatrice, and Beatrice.

There's some very funny memes I could share related to that. I can't do it yet, because a lot of them relate to Beato's true identity, but they're there

[Eluvianii]

I'm always so emotionally confused after a Maria chapter. A part of me feels like I should be happy for her. Another part of me feels like crying.

Oh, I just noticed that the whole of Krauss' family line has a green gem on their person, except Jessica. Strange.

It's interesting how they lead your train of thought. I was just told that Beatrice "appeared" before Genji, Kumasawa, Shannon, Kanon, and Nanjo. Assuming they do interact with each other and that Beatrice has to be a physical person, that leaves Jessica to play the role. Almost the same age, similar hair and eye color, it's perfect. Then I'm told immediately after that Jessica is the one person who is creeped out the most by Maria's behavior, and therefore the last person who would ever play that role. A fact I already knew but since it's been like 4 episodes since it was brought up, I forgot. So now I have to somehow make do with thinking Maria created Beatrice as an imaginary friend and everyone else just played along. Either that or there's some extra person there that just happened to be absent in 1986.

Jessica's story was genuinely creepy, I liked that. It's interesting how everyone seemed sincerely concerned for her wellbeing after she disrespected Beatrice, especially Kumasawa, who actually knows stuff. Are common ghost stories really all there is to their belief? It seems stronger than that.

Ok, it's not only Shannon and Kanon, everyone seems to remember bits and pieces from different fragments that are different from this one. To hell with logic errors I guess. Jessica's story clearly happened in a fragment where she's an only child, most likely in 1985, in a fragment where Kinzo does die. You could break a human mind with contradictions like that.

That begs the question, how does Lion's presence prevent the legend of the witch from being born? Hmmm, I guess you could also conclude that his absence is, in some way, the cause of all the mysterious happenings around the mansion? Ooh what if he's alive in every fragment, but is kept a secret, and all the ghost stories are born from the little breadcrumbs left by the extra person living in the mansion? With his looks and voice he could even be Maria's Beatrice. And he has the exact age. Hmmmm.

Well, it seems Will got to some conclusion, so I'm looking forward to that. I'm still trying to figure out what the crime even was. Maybe in this particular amalgam of a fragment "killing Beatrice" means preventing the legend from being born.

Edit: Actually, let me go even further with that. What if the ghost stories about the mansion and specifically the vip room are to prevent people from roaming around at night, the only time he can get out, and from entering the vip room, where he lives? Man, it does fit. 

Edited April 21 by Eluvianii

[Eluvianii]

I took that leap of faith, but I guess in the end it was in vain. Dammit.

I have one single piece of solace in all of this and it's the fact that Kinzo recognizes what he did as a sin, and immediately tried to atone for it, I can respect that. I also appreciate Genji distrusting him afterwards. That's the least punishment he deserves. As for actual forgiveness, only Lion and his other self have that right. They can choose.

Well, I guess that answers quite a few things. Shannon, Kanon, and Beato don't metaphorically share a soul. They literally do. Man, this is awkward. If this is the case, then Zepar and Furfur's game has no winner. All roads lead to incest, pick your poison.

This is also the reason there's 17 people on the island, and most likely the reason Kanon could slip out of the cousins' room. Shannon was in one room, Kanon in the other, the story rewrites itself as needed, he can literally pick one. They made sure that each name can only refer to one person but I think nothing was said about each person having only one name.

Maria seems so knowledgeable about Beatrice's magic because she taught it to her. That's one hell of a flip. Kanon can just take all the creepy stuff he learned from Maria and replicate it. Magic circles and stuff.

I guess Genji's wishes came true, to a degree. Kanon did mention how Kinzo often played with him and involved him in his pranks. That's cute, I think.

I'm still clueless about the promise, but Battler forgetting is a clear one, he did think he was just meeting Kanon when he got to Rokkenjima. Actually, scratch that, Battler was told Kanon had only been working there for a little while. Did he change his image? I imagine him actually looking like Lion isn't out of the question.

I actually haven't discarded the idea that the Kanon we know isn't the culprit. Just another avatar you can mix with the other two to get the culprit's actual face. However, the game is making a big point of not showing their face, meaning it's a face we know, and we were already shown Shannon as their imaginary friend, so.

What's up with George's romance arc anyway?

Well, chapter 1 of the answer sheet done. 8 to go.

[aneonfoxtribute]

46 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

I'm still clueless about the promise, but Battler forgetting is a clear one, he did think he was just meeting Kanon when he got to Rokkenjima. Actually, scratch that, Battler was told Kanon had only been working there for a little while. Did he change his image? I imagine him actually looking like Lion isn't out of the question.

Kanon wasn't working on the island when Battler was around. Kanon only came a few years later.

[Eluvianii]

I kinda need him to...

Ok, culprit is 19, but everyone thinks they're 16, and they're small and frail so everyone finds the fake age to be credible. And it's someone we know. Actually, even my theory that the culprit might be some strange mix of the three falls apart as per Knox's rules, I think. So it has to be Kanon.

I... don't know how to reconcile this with Kanon being a new guy.

Well, I'd be perfectly fine with it not being him if it means his relationship with Jessica can happen...

Oh yeah, so the sisters are real.  Or this is the other "ingredient" that was used to create them rather. That's some crappy treatment they're giving Culprit-chan, it figures they'd become her servants in the game.

Waaaaaait a second, I'm still missing the piece of who Battler even is. Virgilia ruled him out as the culprit but, well, he is in the age range to be the baby. And I mean, he's literally redhead Kinzo.

Gah, I'm lost again. I'm just gonna keep reading.

[Eluvianii]

"Are there any other Beatrices I should know about?"

*Gaap scoots over*

These chapters are at a slightly frustrating length. They're shorter than normal chapters but not short enough that I can read 3. I just have to stop 20 minutes earlier. Oh well.

I find it funny how the child acknowledges the fact that Kumasawa's charms help them to keep track of things. Like, it wasn't some subtle result born from Kumasawa's cleverness, they know using the string and putting things away after using them prevents them from being lost. If at that point they had said "Oh, I guess witches don't exist then" that would have been it. But instead they rationalized that the witch finds things that were already lost and loses them even more. I don't know, it's so funny.

I'm noticing the human versions of the sisters have the same personalities as their demon counterparts. Well, only example so far is Lucifer, but still. She's the eldest one that isn't that good at her job but does anything in her power to keep people from noticing. Yep, checks out. I wonder how the others will fare.

I also wonder if Mammon, Beelzebub, and Asmodeus will show up too.

Also stop right there, Ryukishi, I want to read that book too, careful with the revelations... Well, I guess now I know everyone dies in that one.

[aneonfoxtribute]

Ryukishi doesn't really spoil And Then There Were None. At least not explicitly, he probably did steal a lot of things from it for Umineko (I haven't read it I don't know)

Yasu is baby and I love them and wish to give them lots of hugs :). I say Beato is my favorite character, but that's just a way of not spoiling things. It's actually Yasu who is my favorite character

[Eluvianii]

Hmmm. "I am one yet many", huh. So Shannon represents her desire to become a respectable servant, worthy of praise instead of the abuse she got early on. Beatrice represents the freedom she wanted, to be rid of responsibility and live life away from everyone. The mirror represents her escaping her own reality, and the face of the culprit. For the numbers to add up Kanon has to figure among these "many" I think, but I can't figure out how.

On more physical matters, I guess this is the way Lion kills the witch by being accepted into the family. If that happens, they never get into mystery novels, they never learn the tricks from those novels, and never use them to prank the other servants, so the legend of the witch is never even born.

Well, the trick with the keys is, for once, easy. The kid can just take all the time in the world to take the key out from her own key ring, hide it inside... uhhhh Asne's? locker. Then when she's not looking she just swaps them. I don't know if the goal here was revenge or education but she liked it either way. Got addicted to it. Unless someone figures out how I'm doing this, I'm a witch, and as long as I'm a witch, anything I wish to be true, is true.

You know, if Shannon and Beatrice are indeed different parts of the same person, that tea party becomes one hell of an identity crisis.

The menu said green Beato was just Bern's doll, but now she's canon. Another one to the list...

Oh yeah, the whole thing about the kid being possessed by Beatrice, and that giving her magic powers kind of reflects how witches actually seem to be born. If you're selected as a piece, the witch "possesses" you to do her will, you gain more awareness about fragments, and once it's over, you're screwed. Good luck dealing with the trauma and the boredom in the eternity that awaits you. Was Battler able to go to a higher plane because he was selected as a piece? Will he turn evil in Ciconia?

So, I'll get there and all, but I just can't wrap my head around this kid's desire to have some control in her highly stressful life, even by turning to illusions, turning into a murderous rampage. I guess at some point she has to find out her true identity but, is that really enough?

sigh the opposite happened today and I had to stop mid-chapter. I don't like doing that. So I'm yet to see exactly how Shannon's relationship with the cousins is.

I really, really want to listen to the vocal version of Golden Nocturne.

[aneonfoxtribute]

10 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

On more physical matters, I guess this is the way Lion kills the witch by being accepted into the family. If that happens, they never get into mystery novels, they never learn the tricks from those novels, and never use them to prank the other servants, so the legend of the witch is never even born.

Not even that. Lion being accepted means that they're a member of the family, not simply a servant. Yasu's characterization and her motives for doing what she does stems from her experiences that she has only when she's yeeted off the cliff and becoming a servant as a result, which Lion never gets because obviously they're not thrown off a cliff as a child and they are instead the heir to the family.

12 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

The menu said green Beato was just Bern's doll, but now she's canon. Another one to the list...

Clair is pretty much always just a stand-in, rather than an actual person that exists.

14 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

So, I'll get there and all, but I just can't wrap my head around this kid's desire to have some control in her highly stressful life, even by turning to illusions, turning into a murderous rampage. I guess at some point she has to find out her true identity but, is that really enough?

Bit of a warning, Yasu's motivations aren't really explained the best in the visual novel. It's a consequence of the story not really telling you who she truly is. It gives you a general indication of the reasons she does what she does, but it doesn't give you the full context of why this is the decision she's made. The manga, specifically some manga-exclusive chapters in Episode 8 titled "Confession of the Golden Witch", goes into great detail about... pretty much everything about Yasu's identity that isn't explained or elaborated upon in the visual novel.

[Eluvianii]

That is a really unusual choice. I guess I'll have to visit those after Episode 8.

[aneonfoxtribute]

50 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

That is a really unusual choice. I guess I'll have to visit those after Episode 8.

The reason is because Ryukishi wanted to make the mystery something that the reader had to solve. He didn't want to just give the reader the answer. He eventually decided to put the full on answer in the manga when they were making it, but he wanted the reader to take the effort to solve the mystery and he very much criticizes the idea of needing the author to spell things out for you.

Also, you can read Confession any time after Episode 7, it doesn't spoil anything in Episode 8 itself. It's basically just the events of Yasu's backstory, but with a lot more context.

[Eluvianii]

Huh, Featherine did get very vocal about that last episode. Well, I do respect that view, but I'm also grateful that  he eventually wrote it down. I can be a bit of a potato brain and while I have thoroughly enjoyed hitting my head against the wall so far and wouldn't ask for an answer about every single mystery (I plan on trying to solve those on a second read or the manga, now that Knox is on my side), I would at least like to have a clear answer on the single biggest mystery of the story. I mean, even if I managed to arrive at the right conclusion, not having confirmation one way or the other would just bug me forever.

In other news, DUDE.

So that was the promise! Of course, Battler is an avid reader (by my way below 100 books a year standards), it makes  sense that they would connect. I can't help but being amazed then. How did he ever remember the "promise"?

I can imagine she then designed the game so that her reasons could be, uh, reasoned, but Battler rarely, if ever, went beyond "None of them would do this", let alone consider "But if they would, then why?"

So, if this is going the way I think, now that she has freed herself of her feelings for the time being, the thing with George will happen. A couple years to go from an act of kindness here and there, to dates outside the island, to a proposal. Damn, George moves faster than Battler. They said Battler coming back in 1985 or 1987 wouldn't have been as bad. If that's the case it would make sense. A year before, her relationship is not set in stone and there is conflict, but also hope. A year later and her relationship is set in stone and she can settle for a "What's done is done", even if she harbors any doubts. But him coming back at the critical moment was probably the worst case scenario for her emotions.

Though, that still doesn't quite make it. I mean, look at it. She's about to get engaged, her old crush comes back. That creates conflict in her heart but she also is able to see with her own two eyes that he truly moved on. That would hurt, of course, but I do believe it should allow her to do the same.

I guess there's also the epitaph, she solves it at some point which gives her an interesting amount of money. Now, there is absolutely no logic behind this but I'm putting a couple chips into the epitaph also telling her who she really is. So she's Battler and George's aunt. Would that make a difference? I genuinely don't know.

"We should count our blessin's that we can bring the whole family together like this without a single one of us missin'" Oh come on, Hideyoshi, that's such a direct attack it almost feels intentional. And then George immediately hands her the empty envelope when she tries to ask if there's anything for her. Yikes. These accidents must run in the family.

Natsuhi, I love you. The way she relentlessly defended Battler's point of view in Rudolf's face was amazing.

Ok so, Kanon is next. Last time Beatrice made a change, it was to split the kid into Shannon and Beatrice. I mean, they were already treated as different characters, but the end result was only one person in the room, so there. Point being, her altering the setting is a mental change rather than a physical one. If that follows, then Kanon would indeed not be real. I don't know how I'd feel about that, but we'll see.

Bit of a side note but I'm starting to get worried about Maria's story. I want her and Rosa reach a resolution of some kind, and I guess I'm a bit worried about the idea of there being enough time for that right in the finale. A 30 hour episode should be plenty but, well, can't help being uneasy.

You know, today was kind of different. From here on out I have more time in the evenings so I could just keep reading and reach Act IX tonight. But I've also decided that this pacing of making theories based on the small portion of the story I read today, and see how much of that turned out to be true tomorrow is really, really fun. So even though I'm at the last stretch of the kid's story, I think I'll do that for another day. The final episode will probably be more appropriate for binging.

Edited May 3 by Eluvianii

[aneonfoxtribute]

I love the Yasu backstory so much. It's such a perfect storm of pure emotional pain.

[Eluvianii]

That. Was. A lot. 

I'm having a hard time dealing with this one, I'm scared to even start Episode 8.

I'm sleepy and disgusted and scared and it's almost 3am. 

I might have a very long post tomorrow, hope that's ok. 

[aneonfoxtribute]

Oh I see someone played the Tea Party

[Eluvianii]

Yeah... No binging rule was in effect until Beatrice finished her confession, which she did yesterday so I said, what the heck. A questionable move that turned into a session around 8 hours. Probably for the best though. If I had stopped at any point during that, I think I wouldn't have come back to it for weeks. Better to get it all in one go.

Ok, sleeping is nice, sleeping is wonderful, coherent thoughts would have been impossible last night, waiting was the right call. Well, a couple things about the confession before going into tea party.

I like that the whole secret about the gold involved a complicated secret passage puzzle. Those may be forbidden but that's only when it comes to locked rooms. Nice.

So, I'm no longer 100% sure about the events of that day, but I will assume at least most of it is the same. Meaning after this nothing appears to change, but in reality Lion becomes the de facto master of the mansion. Meaning if at any point she goes to the servants being like "Hey, help me kill everyone", I think it's not out of the question that they would agree.

She also said that was enough to reason out her motive. Uhhh I don't think I'm quite there but let's try, I guess.

I will have to go with essentially the same as last time. There was a duel and the result was almost decided she said. Both Shannon and Kanon "existed" at this point, and they both had developed their own relationships, but Shannon's was by far the one that was further ahead. The winner of this duel. Cue Battler coming back to the family the day the duel was to be decided and suddenly that root that she had separated herself from comes flying back to her. Now there are no good options. Now no matter what she chooses, someone will be hurt. If she just continues with the plan, that's technically the right choice, but thanks to this new development, she wouldn't be happy with it. She still, after all this time, wants to be with Battler. However, even if she wanted to change course, Battler doesn't seem to remember her. He didn't send her a letter two years ago, what's to be said about now? So she pulls a Kinzo. She stakes her life, and everyone else's, on him remembering before midnight. Sure, the competition was directed at everyone, but the mystery expert was him, right? Surely he'll get it before anyone else. Plus, he doesn't ignore the heart. If he solves this, he might realize who's doing this, he might realize why, he might remember. The enormous risk taken was to  give more power to the ritual. And if he, in fact,  did not remember, then so be it. Her chances of a happy life were low anyway, back to the dust with her and everyone else.

Now, I did think from time to time that maybe the reason we aren't shown a face beyond the various personas she creates was because she had scars on her face or something. I mean, thrown from a cliff as a newborn and makes a complete recovery? Unlikely. Not to mention that if we're already told that she's literally Lion, we pretty much know that they share a face, so why not just show it? That had to be it. And it was, but apparently there's more? "This body isn't even capable of love", and in red no less. You could argue that's a classical My face is destroyed, no one would love me, but I'm thinking more along the lines of her being paralyzed from the waist down. However it would be impossible for her to activate the  mechanism if that was the case so, probably not. Either way, if it was bad enough to make her want to die, well it has to  be bad.

Thing is, I don't know if I'm supposed to factor that last bit into the equation, since the biggest clue we have of that is her saying the mirror will just show her her pitiful self, and we weren't explicitly told until after the confession. But if that, and the context of the accident, were supposed to be enough clue, then it kinda helps my previous paragraph. Whether it was true or not, she absolutely believed she had no chance at being happy, except, maybe with Battler. Her emotions might have been strong enough on that day to actually risk everything into that ritual.

I might compare notes with those chapters later today.

Now comes the big However.

Was this actually a confession about a crime that was planned but never committed? Have we actually seen different fragments or was it all a fiction to spare the sole survivor the pain of knowing that her parents did it?

Wait actually, regardless of whether or not that is the case, my biggest question is this. Is that Kyrie? That "game" as a whole bypassed hearts left and right but not completely. Eva worried about her family, Rudolf worried about Battler. Rosa was pretty deranged during the scene but even her actions seemed to be motivated by the (very unhealthy) wish for her husband to come back.

But Kyrie was the only one who genuinely seemed to care about no one but Rudolf. And even then she lost interest after he died. Is that the takeaway from this? No matter the fragment, this woman is dangerous, be careful? Is this why we are asked to pay attention and truly learn the personalities of every character, so we can realize "one of these is not like the others"? True, if I look back she was the craziest one by far. Rosa is probably the worst person around in terms of actions but hers are motivated by emotion and trauma, ones that she could overcome if she at some point started caring, but you can see a degree of love for Maria, that just happens to be weaker than the memory of her husband. Eva would be the obvious choice if you were looking for a crazy character but as you go along you realize she's just passionate. She can easily be overcome by emotions (anger especially) and she's constantly looking for ways to screw people over, but in the end she's the one who showed the most love for her family.

Kyrie on the other hand, whenever she starts on the subject of love, seems to be very far down the "love is war" rabbit hole. It's not an emotion, it's a competition. Very unhealthy, but I was willing to balance it out with the other scenes she had, there were times where she gave good motherly advice to Battler and treated him like a son. Having her saying now that literally all of that was an act is, conflicting to say the least.

I thought I'd have more to say about the tea party but the rest of it is actually kinda easy to accept. Temptation is shown as the devil here and I can see that. Eva regrets killing Krauss and wouldn't touch the children, she's human, but also admits that she would eventually have reached the point where she's at least willing to kill her siblings. That I can see. People forcing themselves to ignore emotions when the solution to all their problems is presented to them is not hard to believe. It was just Kyrie appearing so seemingly inhuman that threw me for a loop.

Ok, Kinzo apparently wanted to steal the gold. I'm not happy about that, but it's not too big a stain on his record compared to the rest. His apology to Lion probably included that.

And of course, the little scene with Beatrice II was nothing we didn't know already. We just needed to feel a little worse after all that.

I'll try not to take Lion and Will's death literally. Unless the message here is "They died while believing in the future, so  they won".

The last scene, well I get that it's supposed to leave you uncertain. One side promises a bloody story with no happy ending, the other promises a happy story to send a kid to sleep. I'm just worried because Battler is trying to console an Ange that already lost her family here. So it sounds like it won't be a story about how they actually left the island alive but about how they didn't suffer as they died. Hope I'm wrong, but to me it felt like that scene supported the "long eulogy" theory.

Good scene though, I spent that whole chapter bottling stuff up, so when Battler announced the next episode and the credits started rolling I kinda broke down crying. Dude flipped a switch there. I'm still somewhat worried about Episode 8 but I'm a lot more pumped to read it than I was last night (that crap actually seeped into my dreams).

As a final note, Will told Lion that he was the one hope out of all the Lions and that he should seize it and be happy for their sake. I get that and I like it. But I would also like the other Lion to discover that there are ways to be happy for her even with whatever scars or disabilities the accident might have left her. Might sound irresponsible for a healthy dude to say that, but if this was like "Oh, she fell from the cliff so she had no chance since that point" it would be really depressing.

Now I get to ask, are the confession chapters easy to find or are they like in the middle of the episode? To avoid spoilers and all.

[aneonfoxtribute]

9 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Now, I did think from time to time that maybe the reason we aren't shown a face beyond the various personas she creates was because she had scars on her face or something. I mean, thrown from a cliff as a newborn and makes a complete recovery? Unlikely. Not to mention that if we're already told that she's literally Lion, we pretty much know that they share a face, so why not just show it? That had to be it. And it was, but apparently there's more? "This body isn't even capable of love", and in red no less. You could argue that's a classical My face is destroyed, no one would love me, but I'm thinking more along the lines of her being paralyzed from the waist down. However it would be impossible for her to activate the  mechanism if that was the case so, probably not. Either way, if it was bad enough to make her want to die, well it has to  be bad.

Her face is not destroyed. That doesn't make sense. We don't know anyone in the cast whose face is that badly ruined. Beatrice's certainly isn't. Additionally, nobody we know is paralyzed from the waist down, and certainly not Beatrice. That also does not make sense. Think carefully, consider what makes sense and what doesn't. 

Quote

Ok, Kinzo apparently wanted to steal the gold. I'm not happy about that, but it's not too big a stain on his record compared to the rest. His apology to Lion probably included that.

Honestly, that scene is kinda weird to me. You're not supposed to be able to lie to someone using the Theatergoing Authority on you, and what Kinzo said was a straight out lie.

Quote

As a final note, Will told Lion that he was the one hope out of all the Lions and that he should seize it and be happy for their sake. I get that and I like it. But I would also like the other Lion to discover that there are ways to be happy for her even with whatever scars or disabilities the accident might have left her. Might sound irresponsible for a healthy dude to say that, but if this was like "Oh, she fell from the cliff so she had no chance since that point" it would be really depressing.

Honestly, Yasu is so depressed that she would have a very hard time ever actually getting past it. It's not a matter of the reality, the reality is that if she just TOLD people they would still accept her, that's what Ryukishi said. It's a matter of her perception, and her perception is that she can't be loved because she believes she's ruined and she's too scared of rejection to tell anybody about it, so she just stews alone in her depression.

Edited May 4 by aneonfoxtribute

[Eluvianii]

2 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Her face is not destroyed. That doesn't make sense. We don't know anyone in the cast whose face is that badly ruined. Beatrice's certainly isn't. Additionally, nobody we know is paralyzed from the waist down, and certainly not Beatrice. That also does not make sense. Think carefully, consider what makes sense and what doesn't. 

Ah I see. Sorry, I was going down a completely different line of thinking. At this point I was convinced the cast we're presented wasn't the actual cast. The whole "the witch's illusion can only kill illusions" at Kanon's death convinced me that he wasn't real, so I discarded him and Shannon along with him and decided that Lion was some severely injured mix of the two. Guess not then, back to the drawing board.

[aneonfoxtribute]

2 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Ah I see. Sorry, I was going down a completely different line of thinking. At this point I was convinced the cast we're presented wasn't the actual cast. The whole "the witch's illusion can only kill illusions" at Kanon's death convinced me that he wasn't real, so I discarded him and Shannon along with him and decided that Lion was some severely injured mix of the two. Guess not then, back to the drawing board.

Remember the Detective's Authority. Whatever is witnessed by the holder of the Authority is unquestionably correct, as well as any scene that takes place before everyone reaches the island, so long as its not being told to us by a character. So everything Battler and Erika sees are reality, and every flashback is real. So since both Battler and Erika see Shannon and Kanon, and since the objective flashbacks show both Shannon and Kanon, neither of them can be outright falsehoods.

Also check out my comment, I updated it cuz I posted too early by mistake, I got a lot more thoughts

Oh yeah also, everything Will says is true. Will just outright gives you the solutions. The question is, what does it mean? That's what you must find out, what he's saying means. 

[Eluvianii]

23 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Honestly, that scene is kinda weird to me. You're not supposed to be able to lie to someone using the Theatergoing Authority on you, and what Kinzo said was a straight out lie.

I'm taking it as an omission. He didn't tell every detail about the two weeks that took place there, and happened to not mention a detail that would paint him in a bad light. Now, if omissions count as lies, then there's a problem yeah.

26 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Honestly, Yasu is so depressed that she would have a very hard time ever actually getting past it. It's not a matter of the reality, the reality is that if she just TOLD people they would still accept her, that's what Ryukishi said. It's a matter of her perception, and her perception is that she can't be loved because she believes she's ruined and she's too scared of rejection to tell anybody about it, so she just stews alone in her depression.

Oh. Ok. I'm more sad now.

16 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Remember the Detective's Authority. Whatever is witnessed by the holder of the Authority is unquestionably correct, as well as any scene that takes place before everyone reaches the island, so long as its not being told to us by a character. So everything Battler and Erika sees are reality, and every flashback is real. So since both Battler and Erika see Shannon and Kanon, and since the objective flashbacks show both Shannon and Kanon, neither of them can be outright falsehoods.

That's a huge help. I think I'm just too hung up on the bit about it actually being 16 people so I forcefully want to remove one, or barring that, fusion two. And since they do say that the whole furniture thing was an inner conflict of Lion's, and the two people directly affected by it are Kanon and Shannon, they were too good a candidate.

You could take it the opposite way to mean that Erika was already one of the people on the island but that is more difficult to see. She has a whole backstory about college, living alone, heartbreak, all in the outside world. A double life as a servant here would be reaaally stretching it.

Last solution is killing someone but how? sigh

22 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Oh yeah also, everything Will says is true. Will just outright gives you the solutions. The question is, what does it mean? That's what you must find out, what he's saying means. 

I figured that was the case. It's all somewhat cryptic but I realize this is the biggest clue I am going to get, so I took pictures of the whole thing. Looks fun to solve.

[aneonfoxtribute]

14 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

That's a huge help. I think I'm just too hung up on the bit about it actually being 16 people so I forcefully want to remove one, or barring that, fusion two. And since they do say that the whole furniture thing was an inner conflict of Lion's, and the two people directly affected by it are Kanon and Shannon, they were too good a candidate.

You could take it the opposite way to mean that Erika was already one of the people on the island but that is more difficult to see. She has a whole backstory about college, living alone, heartbreak, all in the outside world. A double life as a servant here would be reaaally stretching it.

The meaning of the 16 people is that with Erika there is 17 people, so there is only 16 people on the island instead of the 18 we always believed. If you take out Erika, there's only 16, therefore it's not counting Erika. Kinzo is one, but that leaves one extra person. And trying to figure that out is one of the mysteries.

[Eluvianii]

Trying really hard to think if there's anyone else at all that Battler and Erika never meet...

Also, just going off the easiest conclusion with Will's explanations, I'm trying to use illusions to illusions as no deaths and earth to earth as deaths. But if we used that, there would be entire episodes without a single death. Might have to rethink that one.