Plate and heat resistance?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I see lots of questions with scadrial vs roshar in mind.  I am curious how shardplate and /or living plate would deal with the possible immense heat able to be generated by feruchemical brass.  I believe there is a WOB discussing how a feruchemist could generate enough heat to melt their metalminds.  If that were the case would baking a radiant or shardbearer inside their plate be an easier job than cracking and breaking through the plate?  

[Frustration]

Given this WoB I'm pretty sure plate's melting point is well above what would be reasonable, if it can be melted at all.

Spoiler

polaristar

So in Words of Radiance, at the end of the book, the singers in their Stormform can summon red lightning and it's revealed Shardplate can neutralize it. I was wondering, can Shardplate neutralize ALL electric discharges or just the "special" kind from Voidlight/voidspren powered from.

And if Shardplate can defend against lightning in general is their a maximum voltage/amperage before it loses effectiveness?

nagewaza

In my mind - the plate likely acts like a Faraday cage - essentially allowing the lightning to never have a path through the user's body (electricity moving through your body is how you get injured). This would assume that Shardplate is conductive.

If they jumped, then likely the lightning would again travel through the outside Shardplate metal and then to ground - again avoiding the human altogether..... That said, small aluminum airplanes have been known to have damage to wings from strikes. In the case of Shardplate, I doubt that thermal shock or melting temperature is an issue for the material.

Brandon Sanderson

This is along the lines of what I was thinking, though I'm not sure I have a maximum volt/amp answer handy.

polaristar

Was basically asking to find out if I can use Shardplate users against Electromaster characters on /r/whowouldwin

Brandon Sanderson

Then I give you an official, "Yes you can."

General Reddit 2018 (Sept. 10, 2018)

 

[therunner he/him]

Good question. I will assume that the person with Feruchemical brass also has twin Gold or F-steel, so that they can survive standing next to a person in plate for more than a second.
Note: Melting point of brass is ~940 degree Celsius.

I don't think it would melt the Shardplate, as it is godmetal and so far we have never seen those be melted, and per the WoB Frustration linked it will be far beyond regular materials. Additionally, there is this WoB on Nightblood https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3797  , suggesting that ''merely' being invested warps physical properties such as melting point. So I would guess they could not melt through the plate.

Heat cracking the plate? Maybe, but it would again have to be pretty high temperature, as if it can effectively withstand lighting strikes, it should be able to take the heat, and Brass has 'low' melting point (room on fire can easily reach up to ~800 not far off).

Would it hurt the person inside? Well, metals are generally good heat conductors so that would suggest yes, as it is godmetal , however counterargument to that would be that Shardplate insulates the wearer against electricity which goes against properties of metal (the person inside is touching the Plate, so if the plate was conductive they would get shocked). So something else is going on, and that could interfere with this as well. Also, Fused have access to Division, so Plate protecting against heat would make sense to me.

Based on this, I am inclined to say no, that Brass feruchemist could not really hurt them in this way, outside of extreme circumstances (lots of time on their hands, and somehow very passive or immobilized Shardbearer)

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Good question. I will assume that the person with Feruchemical brass also has twin Gold or F-steel, so that they can survive standing next to a person in plate for more than a second.
Note: Melting point of brass is ~940 degree Celsius.

I don't think it would melt the Shardplate, as it is godmetal and so far we have never seen those be melted, and per the WoB Frustration linked it will be far beyond regular materials. Additionally, there is this WoB on Nightblood https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3797  , suggesting that ''merely' being invested warps physical properties such as melting point. So I would guess they could not melt through the plate.

Heat cracking the plate? Maybe, but it would again have to be pretty high temperature, as if it can effectively withstand lighting strikes, it should be able to take the heat, and Brass has 'low' melting point (room on fire can easily reach up to ~800 not far off).

Would it hurt the person inside? Well, metals are generally good heat conductors so that would suggest yes, as it is godmetal , however counterargument to that would be that Shardplate insulates the wearer against electricity which goes against properties of metal (the person inside is touching the Plate, so if the plate was conductive they would get shocked). So something else is going on, and that could interfere with this as well. Also, Fused have access to Division, so Plate protecting against heat would make sense to me.

Based on this, I am inclined to say no, that Brass feruchemist could not really hurt them in this way, outside of extreme circumstances (lots of time on their hands, and somehow very passive or immobilized Shardbearer)

Agreed.  At the very least the WOB @Frustration posted does confirm the existence of a melting point, if not what it actually is (since he just didnt have the numbers handy).

But where Electric heating of that kind works differently than convective and conductive heating which friction is dealing with, in that the temperature just keeps rising until the material is overloaded and electric flow stops(one of the reasons electric stoves burn things easier), friction will top out with the balance between friction and heat dissipation from the wind, etc. For scale, it looks like the space shuttle's (higher temp) reentry tiles can withstand up to 2300°F, compared to the melting point of mundane Iron that is 2800°F.

Plate would be a Godmetal that is specifically intended for Defense, so I think it's reasonable to think it's going to be better than Iron or other common/mundane armor materials on any individual stat.  

[Duxredux he/him]

Okay, I'm going to say that against a Radiant in living plate, this is a really bad idea regardless of if they can do any damage. The Feruchemist is deliberately setting themselves on fire hot enough to kill and trying to hurt someone in armor by standing next to them with their burning body. The Feruchemist will be burning through their Goldmind like mad, and you don't want to do that against another healer. I don't think a quick flash of heat will be enough to kill someone in Plate either, I think it would need to be enough thermal energy to permeate the Plate and then bake someone from the outside in, because heat doesn't move instantaneously. I used to flick the Bunsen burner flame in science class and it never hurt despite the high temperatures involved because of how long it took for the heat to transfer to me. Using Steel will let them evade the Shardbearer, but I don't think it will be as simple as zipping over, going nova, and then zipping away. Using F-Pewter and punching until you broke your fists would drain your Goldmind less.

I have other speculation, but that's the short answer.

Spoiler

 

As for if a Feruchemist using Brass could damage someone in Plate, these are my thoughts.

This is complicated, and I don't know enough about the specifics of electromagnetism to use the WoB if a Shardbearer could take on an Electromaster. Maybe Shardplate is unbelievably durable, or maybe Brandon didn't know what Electromasters are capable of.

I did a quick internet search, and the Electromasters of "A Certain Scientific Railgun" at the top end can regularly fire off shots of 1,000,000 volt and 2,250,000 ampere electricity. In contrast a lightning strike has about 300,000 volts and 30,000 amps and generates air temperatures of 50,000 F (27,760 C). That said, lightning strikes have a 90% survivability rate if someone is on hand to provide CPR. I found a news article of a 13 year old who got struck by lightning and walked out of the hospital a few days later and described getting hit as a bit warm. Another quick search returned the average of 110-380 volts and .1 amperes that cause electrocution deaths. We need someone who can explain why a lightning strike can be survived despite the numbers.

At any rate, the WoB seems to imply that Plate is a very good conductor and operates as a Faraday cage. This is very different from thermal or electrical insulation, it's where you surround an object of relatively high resistance with a shell with high conductivity. The electricity travels only along the conductive shell, never traveling through the internal object which often causes damage to people. I believe most electrocution victims die when the current passes through the body and disrupts the sinus node that generates electrical signal that times the correct heart chambers pumping, not from heat burns.

The notes about the melting point of Godmetals, Invested objects, etc. only matters if somehow there isn't heat transfer from the Plate to the person inside. It doesn't matter if Nightblood could survive getting tossed in a volcano, you still don't want to touch him when he's that hot. Melting point isn't what we want to know, it's a combination of factors including specific heat, or the amount of energy it takes to raise the temperature of the object by a degree, and thermal conductivity. Materials with a high specific heat, water for example, take much, much longer to heat up to dangerous temperatures than materials with a low specific heat, such as the mercury in old thermostats. The rate that this heat is passed on the the person in the Plate is the thermal conductivity. I think these together are known as thermal capacity or thermal mass, but I'm no expert. Specific heat is a result of different chemical properties than melting point or conductivity, so I can't even guess what Shardplate or Invested objects will look like.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Duxredux
clarity

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

  If that were the case would baking a radiant or shardbearer inside their plate be an easier job than cracking and breaking through the plate?  

Almost certainly not- even if this would work, f-Pewter would work better. As @Duxredux points out the heat would need to be applied for some time - a few super punches with f-Pewter is likely faster.

Especially if it's a full feruchemist (or medallion user) who can combine f-Steel and f-Pewter. F-steel wouldn't help much if you need the time in contact to "cook" the Shardplate user.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Okay, I'm going to say that against a Radiant in living plate, this is a really bad idea regardless of if they can do any damage. The Feruchemist is deliberately setting themselves on fire hot enough to kill and trying to hurt someone in armor by standing next to them with their burning body. The Feruchemist will be burning through their Goldmind like mad, and you don't want to do that against another healer. I don't think a quick flash of heat will be enough to kill someone in Plate either, I think it would need to be enough thermal energy to permeate the Plate and then bake someone from the outside in, because heat doesn't move instantaneously. I used to flick the Bunsen burner flame in science class and it never hurt despite the high temperatures involved because of how long it took for the heat to transfer to me. Using Steel will let them evade the Shardbearer, but I don't think it will be as simple as zipping over, going nova, and then zipping away. Using F-Pewter and punching until you broke your fists would drain your Goldmind less.

I have other speculation, but that's the short answer.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

As for if a Feruchemist using Brass could damage someone in Plate, these are my thoughts.

This is complicated, and I don't know enough about the specifics of electromagnetism to use the WoB if a Shardbearer could take on an Electromaster. Maybe Shardplate is unbelievably durable, or maybe Brandon didn't know what Electromasters are capable of.

I did a quick internet search, and the Electromasters of "A Certain Scientific Railgun" at the top end can regularly fire off shots of 1,000,000 volt and 2,250,000 ampere electricity. In contrast a lightning strike has about 300,000 volts and 30,000 amps and generates air temperatures of 50,000 F (27,760 C). That said, lightning strikes have a 90% survivability rate if someone is on hand to provide CPR. I found a news article of a 13 year old who got struck by lightning and walked out of the hospital a few days later and described getting hit as a bit warm. Another quick search returned the average of 110-380 volts and .1 amperes that cause electrocution deaths. We need someone who can explain why a lightning strike can be survived despite the numbers.

At any rate, the WoB seems to imply that Plate is a very good conductor and operates as a Faraday cage. This is very different from thermal or electrical insulation, it's where you surround an object of relatively high resistance with a shell with high conductivity. The electricity travels only along the conductive shell, never traveling through the internal object which often causes damage to people. I believe most electrocution victims die when the current passes through the body and disrupts the sinus node that generates electrical signal that times the correct heart chambers pumping, not from heat burns.

The notes about the melting point of Godmetals, Invested objects, etc. only matters if somehow there isn't heat transfer from the Plate to the person inside. It doesn't matter if Nightblood could survive getting tossed in a volcano, you still don't want to touch him when he's that hot. Melting point isn't what we want to know, it's a combination of factors including specific heat, or the amount of energy it takes to raise the temperature of the object by a degree, and thermal conductivity. Materials with a high specific heat, water for example, take much, much longer to heat up to dangerous temperatures than materials with a low specific heat, such as the mercury in old thermostats. The rate that this heat is passed on the the person in the Plate is the thermal conductivity. I think these together are known as thermal capacity or thermal mass, but I'm no expert. Specific heat is a result of different chemical properties than melting point or conductivity, so I can't even guess what Shardplate or Invested objects will look like.

 

 

Tapping heat also give you immunity, or at least heavy resistance to that heat., the same way tapping iron allows you to continue to move.

[HSuperLee]

Living plate, if I had to guess can probably insulate itself against heat fairly well, though I have no real evidence for this and am speculating. Dead plate you actually don't need to burn or melt through, even assuming it blocks the transfer of heat. Once their air is hot enough that it begins to burn the shardbearer's face and lungs, then there's not much dead plate can do to seal the environment and save them. That puts the maximum temperature a non-radiant could withstand somewhere in the low-to-mid 100's Fahrenheit (yes, I'm American. Mid 60's C for y'all metrics). And that's assuming that plate can defend against thermal conduction. As I'm indicating, radiants probably wouldn't have that issue, as they could block convection by sealing their plate. And ultimately, since radiants can probably survive in space with just stormlight and plate, I'm assuming they have a way to deal with heat, or the radiation of nearby suns would fry them.

[cometaryorbit]

18 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Once their air is hot enough that it begins to burn the shardbearer's face and lungs, then there's not much dead plate can do to seal the environment and save them. That puts the maximum temperature a non-radiant could withstand somewhere in the low-to-mid 100's Fahrenheit (yes, I'm American. Mid 60's C for y'all metrics).

That would take significant time to be fatal, though -- probably more time than it would take for a Shardblade or Plate-boosted punches to burn through the Feruchemist's goldminds, certainly more time than shattering the Plate with f-Pewter.

Shardplate strength seems much more than pewter Allomancy, given the weight of those shardhammers (it's also referred to as "strength of many men" at one point whereas flared pewter is about triple strength for the usual Allomancer). But Feruchemists can easily get above that for one or two super-powered strikes.

[HSuperLee]

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

That would take significant time to be fatal, though -- probably more time than it would take for a Shardblade or Plate-boosted punches to burn through the Feruchemist's goldminds, certainly more time than shattering the Plate with f-Pewter.

Shardplate strength seems much more than pewter Allomancy, given the weight of those shardhammers (it's also referred to as "strength of many men" at one point whereas flared pewter is about triple strength for the usual Allomancer). But Feruchemists can easily get above that for one or two super-powered strikes.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. Unless they're compounding to get insane levels of heat feruchemical brass is not a good way to fight a shardbearer. I'm just pointing out that there is a theoretical way to make it work by exploiting dead plate's lack of sealing.

[cometaryorbit]

Oh yeah I doubt dead plate would provide complete protection against a superheated environment (though there might be some protection, as Division probably does fire and we see dead plate "adapt" to oppose stormform lightning).