Szeth's Moral Dilemma

[Letryx13]

One of the things I like most about the Stormlight Archives (and possibly what makes them so popular) is the moral questions is forces readers to consider.  What is the right thing to do in a given situation? Szeth's biggest role in the story so far has been his work as the Assassin in White, killing King Gavilar and many other rulers across Roshar.  As we all know, he did this because he was sworn to obey whoever held his oathstone, part of his punishment as a Truthless for raising the alarm that the VoidBringers were returning. His people believed it was a false alarm, and punished him.  

As we also know, he was actually correct the entire time, and the VoidBringers and Knights Radiant really were returning.  Kaladin making him realizing this is what made him stop fighting at the end of WoR. Just before Kalading ends the fight, Szeth makes the comment that he was never Truthless, that he could have stopped the murders at any time. Kaladin counters that he's using the oath as an excuse, and that he's being a coward for not accepting that he had a choice.

Presented from Kaladin's viewpoint, it's hard not to see the validity of his point. Szeth always had a choice.  But in RoW, Dalinar makes the argument to Taravangian that keeping promises and oaths are part of honor.  As far as Szeth knew, he was bound by a promise as part of his punishment (at least, as far as we understand how being a Truthless works), so he was honorbound to commit the terrible acts he did. But he always had the option to choose to reject the orders.  Even if he had truly been wrong, and he truly was a Truthless, would it still have been honorable for him to reject the orders he'd been given?  The SkyBreakers might be misguided, but they are still an order of Knights Radiant.

I think it's fairly certain that this conversation is going to come up during Stormlight 5, considering that Szeth and Kaladin are travelling to Shinovar together. The two haven't interacted since their battle in the highstorm, which I suspect is a deliberate action on Sanderson's part.  Honor (not the person) is obviously a subjective concept, but what do you think? How will the conversation between them go?

[NameIess]

I think that the Szeth understands that what he did in following his oathstone was wrong. He realizes that he was made truthless incorrectly, and the murders he did still haunt him. So while he and Kaladin are probably going to clash over their personal definitions of Honor, I don't think that will be part of it.

[Returned he/him]

I think that it's an interesting spot, because a Truthless is not supposed to have any agency and so they don't have any moral properties outside of obedience (or so the Shin seem to think, at any rate). If that's true then the moral properties of his actions would belong to the people holding the oathstone. It's not clear to me that the mass murder with superpowers is an example of what we could typically expect here, but they're so rare (and it's implied that existence of a Truthless is bad news anyways) that it's hard to say. I mean, if they didn't want him to fight they wouldn't have sent him with an Honorblade...

So I think that he was being a "good" Truthless in regard to his dedication to obeying anyone that held his oathstone, but it's strongly suggested that Truthless are thought to be fundamentally bad people. Warriors and killers seem to be thought of similarly in Shinovar. Szeth lived up to his role, but that role was being the worst person possible-- he was a "good" (dutiful) Shin according to standards we don't know for reasons we don't understand. The question is then "does it matter that he wasn't really Truthless?".

It's hard to evaluate a Truthless subsuming their moral capacities when we have no idea why it might be done and what we should expect from it. I certainly wouldn't endorse dozens of unprovoked assassinations, which destabilized the world, for no particular reason. But since he wasn't actually Truthless he doesn't get the excuse of having no agency, even though in Shinovar it was everyone but him that made the mistake of labeling him a Truthless in the first place.

So, "honorable" in that he did everything he could to fulfill his obligations to his best ability, but probably "wrong" in a moral sense both because the conditions under which he slaughtered weren't the ones that made it "ok", and because Truthless are in some way inherently "bad". And we don't have enough information to evaluate whether or not following the Truthless rules has much behind it even when they are correctly applied. I'd lean towards saying his time as a presumed Truthless was not good, but I think that arguments can be made in the absence of sufficient information.

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Returned

[Kvothe the Bloodless he/him]

Personally, I'm a bit more sympathetic towards Szeth for a couple of reasons and I'm gonna just quickly list the factors of this "moral dilemma"

1. Szeth believes he is Truthless, and therefore he must obey his master
   1. However, being Truthless does not absolve him of any guilt. That is a big part of being Truthless: you still remain responsible for any reprehensible actions, even if it was against your choice
2. Throughout all of his killings, Szeth is still immensely regretful, sometimes even weeping for those he killed as he killed them
3. Szeth is not actually Truthless, as the Last Desolation has come, and therefore the Shin shamans were wrong

In my mind, this is the dilemma: Should the blame be placed on Szeth?

On the one hand, a lot of people probably think that Szeth is guilty and should have ended the murders, because 1) murder is bad 2) as Truthless the guilt remains on Szeth's shoulders 3) Szeth was never actually Truthless, so he could have stopped the murders at any time without losing his honor.

This argument is a little faulty mainly because of the third reason. Szeth really had no way of knowing that he was not actually Truthless unless the Knights Radiant/Voidbringers returned. However, the other two points are valid. Szeth always had a choice, even if he did not realize it, and that makes him guilty.

I personally believe that Szeth should be absolved of blame, but not guilt. That might sound a little weird, but let me explain. Blame is defined as taking responsibility for a wrong. Guilt is defined as the fact of having committed a crime. 

So here's my reasoning. As Truthless, Szeth is forced to take upon the guilt of any actions his masters order him to do. So, Szeth is the one committing the crimes, and he should not be absolved of that. However, the responsibility, or blame, of the crimes falls upon the masters, not Szeth.

Another point I want to make is that Szeth did not renounce his status as Truthless because his honor and his oaths were the only things he had left, so even if it meant remaining Truthless (the lowest position in the Shin social hierarchy), then I think that in his eyes, maybe remaining Truthless was necessary.

[Treamayne]

On 5/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

So here's my reasoning. As Truthless, Szeth is forced to take upon the guilt of any actions his masters order him to do. So, Szeth is the one committing the crimes, and he should not be absolved of that. However, the responsibility, or blame, of the crimes falls upon the masters, not Szeth.

Concur.

In fact, the whole situation has always reminded me of two books by Jim Butcher (Dresden Files #4 - Summer Knight and Codex Alera #5 Princeps' Fury
Summer Knight Ch 34

Spoiler

Quote

 

“Go away, Mab,” I said, my voice tired.

She laughed and said, “Nay, mortal. It is you who must now depart. You and your companions.”

“What about Toot-toot?” I asked.

“It is unusual for a mortal to be able to Call any of Faerie, even the lowest, into service, but it has been done before. Fear not for your little warriors. They were your weapon, and the only one accountable for their actions will be you.

 

 

Princeps' Fury Ch 39

Spoiler

Quote

 

“Thank you,” Tavi told him quietly. “You and your people saved my life.”

The Hunter looked up at him, ears quivering in surprise that he quickly suppressed. He bowed his head, Aleran-style.

“What were their names?” Tavi asked.

“Nef,” growled the Hunter. “And Koh.”

“And yours?”

“Sha.”

“Sha,” Tavi said. “I am sorry for their loss.”

The Hunter became very still for a long moment, staring down at the stream.

“It is the way of your people to sing over the fallen,” Tavi said quietly. “I’ve heard it before. Is there anyone to sing for Nef and Koh?”

Sha moved one paw-hand in a negative gesture. “Their kin sang their blood song long ago. When they became Hunters.”

Tavi frowned and tilted his head.

“We are as the dead,” Sha said. “Our purpose is to dedicate our lives to the service of our lord. And, when it is necessary, to surrender those lives. When we become what we are, we lose our lives—our names, our family, our homes, and our honor. All that remains is our lord.”

“But their sacrifice may have saved thousands,” Tavi said. “Is it the way of your kind to let such courage go unmourned?”

Sha studied him in silence for a long moment.

Tavi thought about the Cane’s words, then nodded slowly, understanding. “They served well, and they died well and with meaning,” he said. “What is there to mourn?”

Sha bowed his head again, more deeply this time. “You understand.”

 

 

Honor has different definitions and expressions for different races, cultures and religions; and I feel that to pass moral judgement on somebody without understanding their point of view can be as bad or worse than the crime(s) you may be condemning.

 

[Letryx13]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:19 AM, Nameless said:

I think that the Szeth understands that what he did in following his oathstone was wrong. He realizes that he was made truthless incorrectly, and the murders he did still haunt him. So while he and Kaladin are probably going to clash over their personal definitions of Honor, I don't think that will be part of it.

Considering that Szeth is going to Shinovar to "cleanse" the Shin, it seems likely to me that his history as a Truthless is bound to come up. But that's just me.

On 5/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, Returned said:

I think that it's an interesting spot, because a Truthless is not supposed to have any agency and so they don't have any moral properties outside of obedience (or so the Shin seem to think, at any rate). If that's true then the moral properties of his actions would belong to the people holding the oathstone. It's not clear to me that the mass murder with superpowers is an example of what we could typically expect here, but they're so rare (and it's implied that existence of a Truthless is bad news anyways) that it's hard to say. I mean, if they didn't want him to fight they wouldn't have sent him with an Honorblade...

So I think that he was being a "good" Truthless in regard to his dedication to obeying anyone that held his oathstone, but it's strongly suggested that Truthless are thought to be fundamentally bad people. Warriors and killers seem to be thought of similarly in Shinovar. Szeth lived up to his role, but that role was being the worst person possible-- he was a "good" (dutiful) Shin according to standards we don't know for reasons we don't understand. The question is then "does it matter that he wasn't really Truthless?".

That's kind of my point. During one of Szeth's conversations with Nightblood, he mentions that he had a choice all along, since he wasn't really Truthless. But even if he had been Truthless, he should still have had a choice. Does the blame fall on Szeth for not rejecting orders to murder, or on the Shin society as a whole, since it teaches a Truthless has no autonomy, as you suggest?

On 5/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

I personally believe that Szeth should be absolved of blame, but not guilt. That might sound a little weird, but let me explain. Blame is defined as taking responsibility for a wrong. Guilt is defined as the fact of having committed a crime. 

So here's my reasoning. As Truthless, Szeth is forced to take upon the guilt of any actions his masters order him to do. So, Szeth is the one committing the crimes, and he should not be absolved of that. However, the responsibility, or blame, of the crimes falls upon the masters, not Szeth.

That's an interesting way of thinking of it. I usually end up taking a middle ground approach to things, so I can see where your mind is at. I think there's plenty of blame and guilt both to be shared in the situation. But I get where you're coming from.

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Honor has different definitions and expressions for different races, cultures and religions; and I feel that to pass moral judgement on somebody without understanding their point of view can be as bad or worse than the crime(s) you may be condemning.

There's definitely truth in that.  Honor is what we define it to be. That was part of the whole debacle with Adolin at Lasting Integrity.  I don't think it's universally applicable because there are some things that are just morally indefensible.  But that raises the question.  Should the Shin society or leaders be held responsible, since they sent someone with an Honorblade out into Roshar, bound to obey the wishes of whoever held his oathstone?

[agrabes]

I think by the in world standards, either could be considered honorable.  It's clear from Nale's reactions and the fact that Szeth has a high spren that his actions were considered honorable by the ethics of the Skybreakers.  It's also clear that Kaladin is presenting what would be honorable by the ethics of the Windrunners.  

By my personal standards, knowingly murdering people was not honorable regardless of the law.  You can follow the law and still be dishonorable.  If he could say he was accomplishing a greater good by killing (or allowing to die) a few particular individuals, then I think what he did could have been honorable.  But that's actually the opposite of what happened.  He killed these people believing that he was not serving a greater good - aside from when he killed Gavilar he was just following orders from either petty criminals or a man he believed to be evil in Taravangian.  He knew that what he did would cause overall harm to society, touching off wars and chaos.  You can't even argue that Taravangian's plan was actually moral (which I think is at least a real debate) and therefore Szeth's actions were honorable in serving it because Szeth did not agree with Taravangian's plan and probably didn't even know all the details.

[Letryx13]

10 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think by the in world standards, either could be considered honorable.  It's clear from Nale's reactions and the fact that Szeth has a high spren that his actions were considered honorable by the ethics of the Skybreakers.  It's also clear that Kaladin is presenting what would be honorable by the ethics of the Windrunners.  

By my personal standards, knowingly murdering people was not honorable regardless of the law.  You can follow the law and still be dishonorable.  If he could say he was accomplishing a greater good by killing (or allowing to die) a few particular individuals, then I think what he did could have been honorable.  But that's actually the opposite of what happened.  He killed these people believing that he was not serving a greater good - aside from when he killed Gavilar he was just following orders from either petty criminals or a man he believed to be evil in Taravangian.  He knew that what he did would cause overall harm to society, touching off wars and chaos.  You can't even argue that Taravangian's plan was actually moral (which I think is at least a real debate) and therefore Szeth's actions were honorable in serving it because Szeth did not agree with Taravangian's plan and probably didn't even know all the details.

Since Szeth wasn't supposed to ask questions of his master, it's very unlikely he knew anything of what Taravangian was actually plotting.  

And don't even get me started on Taravangian. His real goal was never moral; he wanted to prove to everyone that he was the smartest and most capable of all.