theory Random Nightblood ramble

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Initial train of thought

Navani makes an interesting discovery in Rhythm of War: while Intention is needed to produce an anti-tone, the person playing it does NOT need Intent so long as the person creating the tool used to produce the sound had it when manufacturing it.[1] This Intent requirement brings to mind something else in the Cosmere – Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy requires Intent to create a spike, on the part of the stabber or someone else involved.[2] This got me wondering, can one create a metal with the Intention of it being used as a Hemalurgic spike, without the person using it knowing? And then I had another thought from there...

Have we already seen this?

Specifically, my mind went to the mystery of why Nightblood contains Ruin's Investiture.[3] An interesting thing with Hemalurgy is that it can be done by anyone with the right knowledge, no extra power required.[4] We also know that some of the Scholars had visited worlds that had gone through the Industrial Revolution and had a more developed sense of scientific theory.[7] Scadrial's tech level pre-TFE was apparently "early industrial era"[8], so it's possible that it was the place they saw, and perhaps they picked up knowledge of Hemalurgy, since it was known in Alendi's time.[9] (Note that I do not mean to say they visited pre-Ascension, just at a point where some things were still more widely-known in certain more Cosmere-aware circles than by Vin's time.)

Now, we know that Nightblood was not originally a spike.[5] So I'm not suggesting that. But there's a key word there: originally. What if it's an object like what I speculate above, a piece of metal imbued with the Intent to rip off a piece of the soul of everything it attacks, but given a mind of its own and an incredible amount of Investiture to supercharge this effect and rip the whole damn thing out? (We know that larkin, Leechers, and Nightblood all work off roughly the same mechanics,[6] so whatever it's doing, sucking Investiture from the soul seems to be a key part.) That would explain how Ruin's power got in there, as well as explaining why it behaves very differently from anything else we've seen Awakened objects be able to do, and demonstrates a much more subtle yet terrifying way to mix various magics than something like Compounding.

A small clarification

Something I should note: Vasher has only been to the Physical Realms of Nalthis and Roshar, though he may have been to the Cognitives of others.[10] However, as the other WoB[7] says that some of the Scholars had been to worlds that had gone through the Industrial Revolution, and Roshar does not seem to have done so, and so I feel it's safe to say some of the other Scholars probably visited other planets, with Scadrial and Taldain in my opinion being the only real contenders for that one, and maybe Vasher just stayed in the Cognitive for that part of the field trip. And since Taldain is closed off[11]... Well, Scadrial certainly seems more likely to me. After all, as long as at least one learned about Hemalurgy, they could share it with the rest, and truthfully only Shashara really needs to have known exactly what was going on with Nightblood at the time.

References

Spoiler

1. Rhythm of War, chapter 97

   Spoiler

   Raboniel spoke to a reverential rhythm. “A tone that forces out Voidlight?”

   Navani kept her face impassive. Well, that answered one question. She’d wondered if the person playing the note needed the proper Intent to eject the Voidlight, but it seemed that creating the plate to align to her hummed tones was enough.

2. Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

   Spoiler

   Brandon Sanderson

   Intent is a big part of a lot of the magics, including Hemalurgy, meaning that you need to know what you're doing. Or somebody needs to-- There needs to be Intent involved in what's happening to you.

   Questioner

   So like with Spook when he got spiked, where was the Intent?

   Brandon Sanderson

   The person who was driving that spike was being influenced by Ruin, and the Intent was there.

   Questioner

   So unless you knew what you were trying to do with a Hemalurgic spike, you couldn't do Hemalurgy?

   Brandon Sanderson

   You could not steal attributes no.

    

3. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

   Spoiler

   Walin

   Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

   Brandon Sanderson

   Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it.

4. SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013)

   Spoiler

   Shardlet (paraphrased)

   In Hemalurgy, does the person doing the spiking need to have Scadrian Investiture?

   Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

   No.

   Shardlet (paraphrased)

   So, anyone with the knowledge could spike someone?

   Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

   Yes.

5. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

   Spoiler

   Questioner

   Was Nightblood a metalmind or a Hemalurgic spike originally?

   Brandon Sanderson

   No. Great question!

6. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

   Spoiler

   Brandon Sanderson

   Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so.

7. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

   Spoiler

   Questioner (paraphrased)

   A bonus piece of information - my poor friend that I dragged along with me (who had only read Warbreaker) asked about the specific naming of Bio-Chromatic Breath.

   Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

   Sanderson confirmed as part of his response that at least some the Five Scholars had visited worlds who had gone through the Industrial Revolution (and therefore would have more of a sense of scientific theory, that the Scholars would have picked up on).

8. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

   Spoiler

   PricklyBear

   When Scadrial was closer to the sun, can we safely assume that the middle section of the planet was scorched clean of anything living? Could there have been some underground life thing going on? Anything cool or interesting sitting out there (like ruins or some lost technology)?

   Brandon Sanderson

   The middle section was scorched pretty clean. I know of a few interesting tidbits, but it's not technology. (The tech level before the Lord Ruler took over was nothing particularly special, early industrial era.) The cool and interesting things are on the southern continent.

9. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

   Spoiler

   Vegasdev

   Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

   Brandon Sanderson

   This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

10. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 25, 2015)

    Spoiler

    shoeties

    Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

11. Arcanum Unbounded, Taldain System

    Spoiler

    Dayside is home to two prominent cultures, while Darkside is more hospitable and varied. The flora and fauna of both sides are remarkable, though currently prospective visitors are—unfortunately—unable to experience them directly. Autonomy’s policy of isolationism in recent times (in direct contrast to her interference with other planets, I might add) has prevented travel to and from Taldain for many, many years.

    A fact of which I am all too aware.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

Intriguing, I certainly think that this theory has merit. Another thing that should be noted is that the very intent of drawing Nightblood allows him to begin leeching, so that might affect the theory in some interesting ways.

[Anomander Rake]

Do any of the scholars even need to have visited Scadrial?  When Spook got spiked, Ruin himself provided the intent just by knowing what was going on.  If any of the shards we're privy to Nightblood's creation (which doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, the stirring of that much investiture) as well as hemalurgy, maybe they could've done so in a similar way?

Edited March 14, 2022 by Anomander Rake
an "s"

[mathiau]

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Have we already seen this?

Spook, HoA

 

We know the black smoke that leaks from Nightblood is made up of corrupted breaths. Considering Hemalurgy transform investiture into Ruin's investiture, if Nightblood is indeed a spike they it's possible that smoke is the black mist, or a breath-black mist hybrid.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Spook, HoA

I don't know if that's quite the same thing, from the way Brandon talks about it it seems like it's more due to Ruin guiding the person than a manufacturing thing. (Though I have wondered whether maybe it is the same thing, and Ruin breaking off the sliver of the sword with the Intent of spiking is what did it, or something.)

17 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Considering Hemalurgy transform investiture into Ruin's investiture

It actually seems to be a bit weirder. Some WoBs talk about it as if the power is still of Pres, but nonetheless spikes do repel the mists and Ruin has an easier time fueling powers granted via Hemalurgy, so there seems to be some Ruin involved still. Which doesn't contradict what you suggest, I think it's pretty plausible, just elaborating on it.

3 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

If any of the shard we're privy to Nightblood's creation (which doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, the stirring of that much investiture) as well as hemalurgy, maybe they could've done so in a similar way?

I certainly think that could be! Makes more sense to me if Shashara did know, though, since somehow she expected it to be Shardblade-like.

[Anomander Rake]

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't know if that's quite the same thing, from the way Brandon talks about it it seems like it's more due to Ruin guiding the person than a manufacturing thing. (Though I have wondered whether maybe it is the same thing, and Ruin breaking off the sliver of the sword with the Intent of spiking is what did it, or something.)

It actually seems to be a bit weirder. Some WoBs talk about it as if the power is still of Pres, but nonetheless spikes do repel the mists and Ruin has an easier time fueling powers granted via Hemalurgy, so there seems to be some Ruin involved still. Which doesn't contradict what you suggest, I think it's pretty plausible, just elaborating on it.

I feel like both are true in your example!  Like, Ruin absolutely guided the dude to the right spot at the right time, so spook could be spiked, but he still needs to provided the intent, that knowing that what was being done could spike spook, that hemalurgy could be used here, so he would get spiked.

As for the second bit, when they he talks about the "little bit of preservation that he could touch", my guess is that "bit" is the smidge more of preservation that went into every human to give them the spark of life (life, sentience, i forget what the exact wording is lol).  Because the spikes pierce the soul and touch that piece, and that piece is literally what makes you, you, Ruin was connected to you and had an easier time with it.

14 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I certainly think that could be! Makes more sense to me if Shashara did know, though, since somehow she expected it to be Shardblade-like.

Totally.  I wasn't saying they didn't, just that what you said about Nightblood could still be true even if they hadn't.  Def makes more sense for someone with a hand in actually creating the thing to have provided the intent after seeing Hemalurgy.

Also forgive me if im just missing something, but why would they have needed to visit Scadrial for them to know what Shardblades are like?  Wasn't that all picked up from their trips to Roshar?  Or are you saying that they learned about filled metalminds / spikes, invested metal with non-normal properties

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

Also forgive me if im just missing something, but why would they have needed to visit Scadrial for them to know what Shardblades are like?  Wasn't that all picked up from their trips to Roshar?  Or are you saying that they learned about filled metalminds / spikes, invested metal with non-normal properties

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. My theory was that Hemalurgy is why Nightblood is the way it is, and specifically is the way it destroys the spirit. My assumption was that Nightblood draining is the way they attempted to recreate Shardblade-like objects with their knowledge and magic, and so that if Hemalurgy were involved, it was probably by design. But if they didn't intend it to do that, and just intended it to cut or something, then that's not necessary, and you could be right that it was an external force.

[Anomander Rake]

10 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. My theory was that Hemalurgy is why Nightblood is the way it is, and specifically is the way it destroys the spirit. My assumption was that Nightblood draining is the way they attempted to recreate Shardblade-like objects with their knowledge and magic, and so that if Hemalurgy were involved, it was probably by design. But if they didn't intend it to do that, and just intended it to cut or something, then that's not necessary, and you could be right that it was an external force.

Ahhh, gotcha gotcha, that ties the threads together a lot nicer than what I had thought you'd meant haha.  That makes sense, with the soul destroying bit.  Great theory!

[Kandrafish]

I like the theory and wanted to add one thing that occurred to me. Shashara would not need to visit Scadrial. One of the five scholars just needed to interact with a worldhopper who had. It makes me think of the feruchemist worldhopper who is in league with Ulim in the Rhythm of War.

This is assuming that the knowledge of Hemalurgy can spread like a virus, which makes sense to me.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

I like the theory and wanted to add one thing that occurred to me. Shashara would not need to visit Scadrial. One of the five scholars just needed to interact with a worldhopper who had. It makes me think of the feruchemist worldhopper who is in league with Ulim in the Rhythm of War.

This is assuming that the knowledge of Hemalurgy can spread like a virus, which makes sense to me.

Good point! I kind of forgot for a moment that Scadrians also exist and might do things, lmao.