A (Literal) Train of Thought

[Ixthos]

Considering Scadrial's history with canals and trains, and the Cognitive Realm's nature as a generally solid surface between planets, I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of Cognitive Realm travel between planets is actually handled by a railway line set up in the Cognitive Realm, with stops being at the perpendicularities under the railways control or granted access to the railway by the local planetary governments. Consider, you board by entering a perpendicularity on Nalthis, wait at the train station, then take the express to Taldain to meet with a business partner. Or take the train to Silverlight where you will be giving a presentation on your research into new metal applications, with guests arriving on the 18:00 from as far away as Sel and Threnody. Perhaps take a train around the local areas in Shadesmar rather than out to other planets, and pay a visit to Lasting Integrity on your way across the Bead Bridge to Urithiru.

I certainly think there will be airplanes in the Cognitive Realm eventually, perhaps to try to see what the Cognitive Realm sun actually is, but until then it seems a practical and grounded solution based on existing technologies.

What do you think? Could this work? And would it be an interesting solution to travel time issues in Shadesmar?

Edited March 10, 2022 by Ixthos

[AquaRegia]

Given the way we've seen matter both imported to and manifested in the CR, I see no reason to rule this out, except that it may not fit with the stories Brandon has in mind.  ;-)

[Ixthos]

6 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Given the way we've seen matter both imported to and manifested in the CR, I see no reason to rule this out, except that it may not fit with the stories Brandon has in mind.  ;-)

 We'll just have to see. What's nice about the Cosmere is that technology changes over time - maybe this will be one of the earlier methods that gets changed later.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

seems like an effective way to begin infastructure.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Considering Scadrial's history with canals and trains, and the Cognitive Realm's nature as a generally solid surface between planets, I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of Cognitive Realm travel between planets is actually handled by a railway line set up in the Cognitive Realm, with stops being at the perpendicularities under the railways control or granted access to the railway by the local planetary governments.

How solid is the CR really on those distances without people watching?

[Olmund]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How solid is the CR really on those distances without people watching?

This is a good point. Imagine having to maintain a railway in an area where the landmass is constantly stretching/warping/expanding to accommodate new minds/settlements/ideas in the physical realm -- it would be a nightmare. It would be like plate tectonics in our world (which does provide minor/major disruptions from time to time) but on a much more frequent basis.

[Ixthos]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How solid is the CR really on those distances without people watching?

Solid as in the space being ground? Likely very - consider the oceans of Roshar being solid ground for the spren upon which they build their cities. If it isn't observed then it becomes solid - it is only where life and people live that regions expand and become oceans of mist or beads or any other substance. Space, which is even less observed than the physical oceans, is likely very stable both in size and composition.

 

19 minutes ago, Olmund said:

This is a good point. Imagine having to maintain a railway in an area where the landmass is constantly stretching/warping/expanding to accommodate new minds/settlements/ideas in the physical realm -- it would be a nightmare. It would be like plate tectonics in our world (which does provide minor/major disruptions from time to time) but on a much more frequent basis.

Real world trains tracks have gaps in them to accommodate their lengths changing as they heat up or cool down, so slight changes in distance likely wouldn't be a problem. However I don't think this would be an issue between planets. The Cognitive Realm changes very slowly - there is a delay before changes in the Physical Realm filter through, and belief takes a while to affect them likewise. Space, being unobserved across the lightyears that separate planets, likely is incredibly stable, and likely only changes slightly over any given period, enough for any issues to be corrected over time. For the space between subasterals to change significantly would require large scale observation of the space between planets - and the inhabitation of that space - across millions of kilometres. 

[Mat]

8 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

except that it may not fit with the stories Brandon has in mind.  ;-)

Now I want a Cognitive realm Brandon version of Murder on the Orient Express  

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Solid as in the space being ground? Likely very - consider the oceans of Roshar being solid ground for the spren upon which they build their cities.

That is on a planet, not in interstellar space. Are we sure that the representation of interstellar space even exists while nobody is passing through?

36 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Now I want a Cognitive realm Brandon version of Murder on the Orient Express  

That people build railways in their subastral is probably inevitable.

[Ixthos]

46 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Now I want a Cognitive realm Brandon version of Murder on the Orient Express  

"Murder on the Shadesmar Express", and "Mystery of the Azure Train" 

 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is on a planet, not in interstellar space. Are we sure that the representation of interstellar space even exists while nobody is passing through?

It does, or rather, it doesn't - space concatinates where minds aren't present or they aren't thinking about it, and that allows one to walk from planet to planet:

Quote

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

Bearing in mind vanish doesn't mean it is now a hole in Shadesmar, but rather is now no-longer reflected there, and so the place would be desolate ground.

[Lunu’anaki]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Are we sure that the representation of interstellar space even exists while nobody is passing through?

Yes. I believe Brandon has clarified that the space between worlds in the CR will change as more and more people begin to think about space. It seems that all is required is for a large number of living, thinking beings to be thinking about a place for it to take form and/or change in the CR. 

So, to clarify: right now only a few people think of the vastness of space as it actually is, therefore it isn't as vast in the CR, but as soon as a larger number of people understand just how vast space is, that cognitive impression will change in the CR. Theoretically that should lead to the space between Scadrial and Nalthis, or Braize and Roshar, becoming larger in the CR over time.

[+Oltux72]

27 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Yes. I believe Brandon has clarified that the space between worlds in the CR will change as more and more people begin to think about space. It seems that all is required is for a large number of living, thinking beings to be thinking about a place for it to take form and/or change in the CR. 

But when do you think more about an area than when you pass through it? In other words does the very act of travel deform the CR?

 

[Lunu’anaki]

32 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But when do you think more about an area than when you pass through it? In other words does the very act of travel deform the CR?

 

The impression I get is that one mind doesn't have much of a noticeable impact on the CR, it's more about a "collective consciousness" if you will. So... one person traveling through space probably has a lot less of an impact on the CR than one person teaching an entire planet what space is, even if they've never visited.

[Ixthos]

35 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But when do you think more about an area than when you pass through it? In other words does the very act of travel deform the CR?

 

Spren cities have human visitors, and it isn't implied that the locations were settled and then expanded but rather that they just set up there for whatever reason - neither human nor spren presence seems to have had a lasting impact on Shadesmar's size based on the Cognitive Realm inhabitants, so it may depend entirely on the Physical Realm inhabitants. There are also caravans, travellers on foot, etc., and they don't seem to have issues walking from one planet to another. On a train they likely wouldn't see or think much about the area the train moves through, and even if they did their attention would likely be on the train, and any changes could affect the "area" of the train, assuming those thoughts would have an impact. I suspect a slow caravan across Shadesmar with several people in it would have a greater impact - if they do have an impact - than a train moving at speed and hardly spending time across any area that corresponds to several lightyears.

 

Just now, Lunu’anaki said:

The impression I get is that one mind doesn't have much of a noticeable impact on the CR, it's more about a "collective consciousness" if you will. So... one person traveling through space probably has a lot less of an impact on the CR than one person teaching an entire planet what space is, even if they've never visited.

Agreed - it is the accumulation of thoughts, and over time - it isn't instantaneous. We also don't know if it is "distributed" as well, if a small area being thought about will expand more than a large - lightyear long - area being thought about.

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

The impression I get is that one mind doesn't have much of a noticeable impact on the CR, it's more about a "collective consciousness" if you will. So... one person traveling through space probably has a lot less of an impact on the CR than one person teaching an entire planet what space is, even if they've never visited.

If you take that to its logical conclusions, you'll get some strange results. Like the distance between, for example, Nalthis and Roshar should increase, if Scadrial introduced astronomy into its mandatory curriculum. In fact do we even know paths in the CR are universal for everybody? As important as Intent is elsewhere that would surprise me.

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Spren cities have human visitors, and it isn't implied that the locations were settled and then expanded but rather that they just set up there for whatever reason - neither human nor spren presence seems to have had a lasting impact on Shadesmar's size based on the Cognitive Realm inhabitants, so it may depend entirely on the Physical Realm inhabitants.

That is a subastral whose shape is constrained by the physical planet.

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

There are also caravans, travellers on foot, etc., and they don't seem to have issues walking from one planet to another.

What happens if you just dump your trash? In fact, people eat in the CR. That must have consequences. What happens to that? If you don't know its there will the next group of travellers encounter it?

 

[Ixthos]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If you take that to its logical conclusions, you'll get some strange results. Like the distance between, for example, Nalthis and Roshar should increase, if Scadrial introduced astronomy into its mandatory curriculum. In fact do we even know paths in the CR are universal for everybody? As important as Intent is elsewhere that would surprise me.

I've added a quote [Edit: two quotes] from Brandon at the end of this post which implies only physical realm inhabitation is going to have an affect on the Cognitive Realm, but baring that I don't think that would be a major issue setting wise - the Cosmere is filled with people whose actions have impacted others where in theory they didn't have any stake.

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is a subastral whose shape is constrained by the physical planet.

I'm afraid I don't see why that would be an issue? The planets also move through empty space, tracing ovals around their stars, and that space isn't constrained by the planet and yet it also isn't affected. Why would the planet's presence be an issue?

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What happens if you just dump your trash? In fact, people eat in the CR. That must have consequences. What happens to that? If you don't know its there will the next group of travellers encounter it?

I imagine they already have been doing that if they are going to do that at all, and we haven't received any info on that being a factor - maybe items left by themselves in the Cognitive Realm which aren't alive will disappear without Investiture to maintain them. 

Trains would also likely reduce this - if not people using the bins on the train, then if it did cause an issue the managers of the railway would notice litter disrupts their train tracks and take steps to prevent it. If someone littering caused problems with your business you have a lot of incentives to keep it down, and trains in and of themselves likely would reduce the amount of litter someone travelling between two points produces.

 

This quote more or less sums up the situation, and why this shouldn't in theory be an issue.

Quote

Questioner

In the Cosmere, as space becomes more developed...*inaudible* outer space.

Brandon Sanderson

It's an interesting question that I've had to ponder. Would the space race happen more slowly because there's an alternative, or would it happen more quickly because you know other planets are inhabited. I'm not going to answer what I came up with, because it's a plot point in the books. So I'll give you a RAFO card, but that's the question to ask yourself.

Questioner

That wasn't my question! My question was, in the Cognitive Realm, with the gap between planets...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh! Will the gap between planets get larger as more people travel in between it. So, barring things like space stations, there's going to be so few minds in between, that I don't expect space to become larger because of that.

I don't expect it to be a factor, except--barring--there will be possibilities of certain regions popping up.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

In essence Brandon doesn't think the space between planets will be meaningfully affected by people travelling between them.

 

[Edit] A second quote about how space is too big for human understanding to fully understand and impact it:

Quote

Dallen Powell

Is it easier to travel in the Cognitive Realm because people in the Physical Realm don't understand the immensity of space, and their lack of comprehension condenses the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd say that's a factor, yeah. Definitely a factor. I think it's impossible to comprehend the immensity of space even with all the visualizations I've seen.  Yeah, definitely. Good question. 

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Ixthos