Copperclouds, seekers and lifesense

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

We see the ability to pierce copperclouds with enough strength as a seeker (whether through aid of hemalurgy or not).  

How many breaths do you think an awakener and at what heightening do you suppose life sense can overcome a coppercloud?   If Vin was capable of doing it with a tiny earing spike how much more do you think it would take to let lifesense through?   If at the 5th heightening you have "perfect lifesense" and every heightening past that is nearly double the amount of breaths to reach... or double the investiture to achieve the next heightening where do you think life sense would be fueled powerfully enough to piece a coppercloud? 

I imagine if not by the 6th heightening for sure by the 7th a coppercloud would offer very little in the way of blocking lifesense but I am open to altering opinions and theories why not.  

Edited March 7, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

I can see it being at the fifth heightening, definitely at 6th and beyond, due to the pure volume of investiture in breaths compared to any misting.

[+Bzhydack]

It is not straight comparison, because we know that A-Bronze is the best (most sensitive) Investiture Detection mechanism in Cosmere, and even then needs to be especially powerfull to pierce throu Copperclouds.

[Lunu’anaki]

I think that theres a lot of factors at play with something like this. Vin's earring increased her already powerful abilities, and we know someone like Elend or Hoid have even stronger Allomancy... so that's a factor at play here, the smokers power level matters. I also assume that the amount of breath/investiture you are attempting to detect with lifesense would impact this, alongside the amount of breath you possess.

There are so many variables and so few ways of comparing them presently that it's very hard to say anything for certain, but it is interesting to think about!!

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

It is not straight comparison, because we know that A-Bronze is the best (most sensitive) Investiture Detection mechanism in Cosmere, and even then needs to be especially powerfull to pierce throu Copperclouds.

 

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I think that theres a lot of factors at play with something like this. Vin's earring increased her already powerful abilities, and we know someone like Elend or Hoid have even stronger Allomancy... so that's a factor at play here, the smokers power level matters. I also assume that the amount of breath/investiture you are attempting to detect with lifesense would impact this, alongside the amount of breath you possess.

There are so many variables and so few ways of comparing them presently that it's very hard to say anything for certain, but it is interesting to think about!!

Both are good points.  I also have to accept that innate investiture may be higher on Nalthis but we can't even start to know how much more investiture exists in a person actively using a power.   Burning metal could be thousands of times more concentrated investiture than a single breath. 

I assume there comes a point where someone with a higher heightening will be able to pierce a coppercloud.  The God King is at least 50,000x more invested than an average nalthian who is already more invested than an average scadrialian.   I imagine that there is a bit of a line in the sand where the average coppercloud can't mask a persons lifesense. 

I think of a tineye looking through the mists.  Just because the mist is there doesn't mean that the structures hidden inside of them aren't there.   Granted it also would partially depend on the subject you are looking for.  A tineye would be able to pick up a torch easier than a candle through the mists, however the strength of said tineye would also make a difference.  Flaring vs a slow burn vs duralumin or even an older generation vs lerasium levels would all effect how dim of a light a tineye would be able to see and how far into the mists they could see it.  A person at a far higher heightening should be able to sense through the smoke more I would imagine regardless of the brightness of them who they are sensing.  

Drabs do make this a more difficult question to figure out though too... as it seems no matter how many breaths a person has a drab is still devoid of enough innate investiture to be picked up at all.  

[cometaryorbit]

I'm not sure it's so much A-Bronze being more sensitive, as that it detects something different. A-Bronze detects (at base) Allomancy and (potentially) any Kinetic Investiture. But life sense seems to be detecting Innate Investiture.

[i’m in the details]

I tend to think that life sense is just a passive ability you get when you become more invested. I think a-copper would be more powerful just by nature of it being an invested art and not something innately attached to investiture gain

[Morningtide]

I think that there would be a point where life-sense could pierce a coppercloud, probably 7th or 8th heightening. 

Slightly unrelated topic: This made me think about the mind-sense of the animals and plants on First of the Sun, specifically the flowers called Patji's Fingers. Would a coppercloud stop the Nightmaws from being able to sense the flowers, and if so, how many flowers would it be able to protect? Aviar do a similar thing to copperclouds, and they can't protect a whole tree of flowers, but it seems to me that copperclouds should be more efficient. 

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Morningtide said:

I think that there would be a point where life-sense could pierce a coppercloud, probably 7th or 8th heightening.

Perfect Life Sense is achieved at the 4th Heightening, which means that life sense reaches its peak there. So a 7th Heightening Awakener (or even Susebron at the 10th) won't have more life sense "power" than someone at the 4th Heightening.

Given that "cap", I kind of doubt that Nalthian life sense can pierce a coppercloud (unless there were some other way to boost it).

4 hours ago, Morningtide said:

 Would a coppercloud stop the Nightmaws from being able to sense the flowers, and if so, how many flowers would it be able to protect?

We see an investiture detection machine in Sixth of the Dusk, too...

IMO all these things work on similar principles (the First of the Sun mind-sense is probably more like Nalthian life sense than Bronze Allomancy, since it doesn't require active use of Kinetic Investiture to be visible).

So I'd expect a coppercloud to block mind-sense of anything within its area.