Kelsier will NOT be a villain, Hoid will

[elsoberanok]

First sorry  for my english

For my, kelsier is judged with double standards, first kelsier in many times did selfless things, he saved vin and he gives her freedom, he was willing to die in battle with his people.

1.A lot of people says he did a religion around him but when he died he did that only for love, he He did not know that there was a way to survive and his sacrifice was sincere it doesnt matters if the people adores him becouse he was dead.

2.people say that he is a manipulator but who is not a manipulator?? In the same mistborn brisa is the king of manipulation

3. In a universe when a character as Dalinar is gol, he is a really killer, he didnt have piety when he set fire to a city I bet there are people who haven't forgiven dalinar and think he's a monster, and hoid literaly said to saw destroy Roshar for his objetives but noooooooo kelsier is the worst people in cosmere

Edited February 24, 2022 by elsoberanok

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

I agree, Kelsier is not one of the worst people in the cosmere, but his actions and overall scheme have stayed consistent throughout various books, showing a lack of personal growth(not sure how possible that is for a Cognitive Shadow), and making him seem worse than he is. I also agree with you on the selflessness part, @elsoberanok.

[TheCollector]

@elsoberanok, the problem with Kelsier vs. Dalinar is that there is a redemption arc for Dalinar already. He has accepted that he was a bad person. Kelsier, on the other hand, has not (as far as I know) admitted that the murders he committed were bad. Dalinar has forgiven himself. Kelsier has practically admitted that the only reason he killed the nobles was because he hated them. He even enjoyed killing them. Dalinar was under the influence of the Thrill, and he felt horrible about the Rift, so much so that he became a drunkard for years. 

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

I agree, Kelsier is not one of the worst people in the cosmere, but his actions and overall scheme have stayed consistent throughout various books, showing a lack of personal growth(not sure how possible that is for a Cognitive Shadow), and making him seem worse than he is. I also agree with you on the selflessness part, @elsoberanok.

I have to challenge that factually. He has changed and learned from his mistakes. But in the manner he saw them, not as some readers based on cultural assumptions think that he should. And he is entirely rational and bases his analysis of his shortcomings on facts. He almost doomed his home planet. How? By acting without knowing all the facts.
And he absolutely has fixed that.

And a being of divine power told him to be less manipulative. Has he heeded the call and kept his promise?
Again: yes. Look at his agent. Mraize is arguably a murder, a blackmailer, a kidnapper and many other things. But he does not lie to you about certain things.

Harmony used Lessie. Kelsier wouldn't. Harmony would not have you knifed in a dark alley. Kelsier would. That is the key difference.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

Okay, I was just clarifying the stuff I remembered, it's been like 6 months since I read it, and didn't know anything about the WOB. I completely agree that Hemalurgy is evil, that is part of its essence and danger, especially if it gets to the rest of the cosmere

Sorry, I don't mean to sound attacking. I was just explaining the reasoning. Actually I suggest you do a search and read the WoB for the simple fact it's kind of funny. You have questioners coming up with all these elaborate uses for hemalurgy and you can really read Brandon's uncomfortableness about it. Like once someone asked about doing something with spikes and Brandon was like "it would be very bad". The person replied "but would it be possible". And Brandon went something to the effect of "ummm yeeeeaaaahhh but you know there is the whole horribleness to it and all......"

12 hours ago, DiePie said:

do (northern) Scadrians even believe in an immortal soul?

I know we don't really know much about Scadrian theology (I blame the fact that the series focuses on the type of people who don't tend to be religious), but out of the major post-catecendre religions we know of (Pathian, Survivorism, and Sliverism are the ones that come to mind), none seem to focus much on the afterlife. Which, now that I think about it, is a weird thing to leave out.

I know it isn't particularly relevant to this debate, except to add that Kelsier probably doesn't believe in the afterlife, considering the way he reacted after dying.

Northern scadrialians definitely believe in an immortal soul as of the original trilogy and the latest trilogy. Just read Kelsier's perspective and Wax's perspective when they die. They may not personally believe it, but they certainly entered it with general notions.

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

First sorry  for my english

No problem at all. Just to be clear because of language nuances, I hope you take my responses as open and genuine as intended. I hope it does not come off as harsh.

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

For my, kelsier is judged with double standards, first kelsier in many times did selfless things, he saved vin and he gives her freedom, he was willing to die in battle with his people.

So as my intention was not to say Kelsier is purely selfish, I assume this is in response to other posts so shall not respond. 

 

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

1. A lot of people says he did a religion around him but when he died he did that only for love, he He did not know that there was a way to survive and his sacrifice was sincere it doesnt matters if the people adores him becouse he was dead.

I think it's a bit conflating to say he did it only for love. He has a heart to heart with himself during Secret History where he admits to himself it was equally about the revenge. He then defended himself that both revenge and saving people as goals can align. 

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

2.people say that he is a manipulator but who is not a manipulator?? In the same mistborn brisa is the king of manipulation

So first there is a difference between manipulating someone to get you wine, and killing someone to make someone take the action you want. 

 

1. Kelsier abandons the villagers. They can either join the rebellion, or if they stay, they will be executed as an example. This can be justified as kelsier stopping the rape and murder of an innocent girl, and freeing a village from a tyrannical leader. But Kelsier still forced people into a situation they didn't ask for, and to make a decision they don't really have a choice in. It is basically do what I want you to do or die. 

2. Bilg and Demoux. I already explained how this was justified but the short of it is can't risk the rebellion falling apart. The means to do it is setting up an innocent man to die at the hands of another innocent man. The only reason Bilg was alive after that was because Demoux actively fought against Kelsier's allomantic push.

3. As I said already Preservation, Vin, and Elend. Justified for trying to save the world. Manipulated Vin by killing the love of her life Elend. Manipulated Preservation because only Preservation could interact with them, so forced Preservation to kill, something Preservation is very much against doing.

4. Manipulated Spook into using hemalurgy. We have Spook's notes where he is uncertain and trying to rationalize its use. Spook had real concerns and was worried.

 

I could go on but for the sake of brevity, in those examples a whole lot of people could have, or in fact did, die. For the purpose of accomplishing a goal. 

So my point is, from Bilg's perspective, if he knew what kelsier really did, could he see kelsier as a villian? Could the villagers? And if so, then couldn't we say that kelsier could take an action in the future that would be received like a villain? The action could be perfectly justified to kelsier, but the person it was done to feel differently?

Further we see Hoid say he would let Roshar burn if it meant protecting the rest of the cosmere from Rayse. Is that really different than what we have seen Kelsier do?

 

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Sorry, I don't mean to sound attacking. I was just explaining the reasoning. Actually I suggest you do a search and read the WoB for the simple fact it's kind of funny. You have questioners coming up with all these elaborate uses for hemalurgy and you can really read Brandon's uncomfortableness about it. Like once someone asked about doing something with spikes and Brandon was like "it would be very bad". The person replied "but would it be possible". And Brandon went something to the effect of "ummm yeeeeaaaahhh but you know there is the whole horribleness to it and all......"

speaking of which, I think you can steal people's age w/ Hemalurgy. not sure if it would add it on to yours or replace yours, though.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

And a being of divine power told him to be less manipulative. Has he heeded the call and kept his promise?
Again: yes. Look at his agent. Mraize is arguably a murder, a blackmailer, a kidnapper and many other things. But he does not lie to you about certain things.

How do you know that Mraize being truthful is sourced at Kelsier?

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Harmony used Lessie. Kelsier wouldn't. Harmony would not have you knifed in a dark alley. Kelsier would. That is the key difference.

How do you know that is the case? Harmony said he asked Lessie. He did not demand it of her. Further he said Lessie acted differently when she passed, when no longer under the influence of the trelliam spike. So it could be said trell used her.

Now it could be said harmony has lied about all of that, but I don't see much evidence supporting that possibility personally.

So i guess i am curious how you know that. And finally how you know kelsier wouldn't when he has used and manipulated his crew members. It was ultimately for a reason in each case, but it doesn't change that he did in fact do so.

 

44 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

speaking of which, I think you can steal people's age w/ Hemalurgy. not sure if it would add it on to yours or replace yours, though.

Lol. I even saw one where a person was trying to steal and transfer identity via spikes to "body jump" as a way to become effectively immortal. 

[+Oltux72]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

How do you know that Mraize being truthful is sourced at Kelsier?

We do not. You are right. That is merely consistant with the proposal, not proof of it.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

How do you know that is the case? Harmony said he asked Lessie. He did not demand it of her. Further he said Lessie acted differently when she passed, when no longer under the influence of the trelliam spike. So it could be said trell used her.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. The target of the deception there is Waxillium, not Lessie/paalm/Bleeder.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Now it could be said harmony has lied about all of that, but I don't see much evidence supporting that possibility personally.
 

He did not tell Waxillium that his wife is alive, a Kandra and his oponent. I am sorry, but that is about as bad a deception as you can make. Anything Kelsier ever did in that regard pales to inobservability besides that.

 

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry, you misunderstood me. The target of the deception there is Waxillium, not Lessie/paalm/Bleeder.

He did not tell Waxillium that his wife is alive, a Kandra and his oponent. I am sorry, but that is about as bad a deception as you can make. Anything Kelsier ever did in that regard pales to inobservability besides that.

 

So let's first establish the justification in each scenario

 

1. Harmony couldn't tell Wax who Bleeder was because Wax would be unable to take the action he needed to, to stop Bleeder. Harmony also knew Wax would agree in hindsight that the action needed to be done and that Lessie would have wanted him to stop her. Harmony knew Wax could handle the experience and would come out the other side ok. Finally Harmony gave Wax the option to move on. He didn't give him a false choice.

So in summation we know Harmony had to keep the info from Wax.

 

2. Kelsier had to force Vins hand so she would not give up the power and release Ruin. He could not interact with her or communicate with her. Preservation could, but he could not speak to her and Ruin set it up to make her distrust Preservation at that point. So Kelsier capitalized on her distrust of Preservation and her feelings for Elend by killing Elend. Ultimately it did not work but the reasoning was sound and had a purpose. 

So in summation Kelsier had to kill Elend to make Vin make the choice he needed her to make.

 

So I guess my question to you is, do you truly feel that withholding information for the greater good is worse than killing someone's loved one right in front of them for the greater good?

If so, then I respect your view but honestly and fundamentally I disagree with you. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I guess my question to you is, do you truly feel that withholding information for the greater good is worse than killing someone's loved one right in front of them for the greater good?

Better or worse for whom? And the refusal to qualify the question that way is the core of utilitarianism.

Harmony treated Waxillium like a tool not like a man who deserved making his own informed decisions. Of course he had a reason. Yet following that reason means that the ends justify the means. I would not go as far as saying that that is wrong. In fact I am not sure that there is a way beyond personal taste to say so. But I would demand honesty and consistency/ And I find Harmony lacking in that regard.
In contrast I find Thaidakar not to have that particular attitude and flaw/ He has others. But from that you cannot say that he is worse than the other side.

 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Better or worse for whom? And the refusal to qualify the question that way is the core of utilitarianism.

Harmony treated Waxillium like a tool not like a man who deserved making his own informed decisions. Of course he had a reason. Yet following that reason means that the ends justify the means. I would not go as far as saying that that is wrong. In fact I am not sure that there is a way beyond personal taste to say so. But I would demand honesty and consistency/ And I find Harmony lacking in that regard.
In contrast I find Thaidakar not to have that particular attitude and flaw/ He has others. But from that you cannot say that he is worse than the other side.

 

Point to note Harmony never lied.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Better or worse for whom? And the refusal to qualify the question that way is the core of utilitarianism.

No, that is a personal moral judgement. That is separate than justification. You are the one that stated that Harmony keeping information from Wax is worse than anything Kelsier had done. Both scenarios are justified. I find it hard to believe killing someone's significant other in front of them is less traumatic than withholding information. 

Quote

Harmony treated Waxillium like a tool not like a man who deserved making his own informed decisions.

Wax did make his own informed decision. In the future. Harmony holds Preservation which is better at future sight. We know this is correct because Wax himself confirms it. 

Quote

Of course he had a reason. Yet following that reason means that the ends justify the means.

As I said both situations are justified. One involves allowing the person to make the choices they themselves admit they would want to take. The other involves taking a life to force someone to make a decision they would not normally take. 

Quote

I would not go as far as saying that that is wrong. In fact I am not sure that there is a way beyond personal taste to say so. But I would demand honesty and consistency/ And I find Harmony lacking in that regard.

My exact points earlier is absent personal moral judgements, they are both justified, but one involves a person actively killing someone to further their own ends, while the other involves withholding information fully knowing that decision is the decision that Wax would want to take. 

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In contrast I find Thaidakar not to have that particular attitude and flaw/ He has others. But from that you cannot say that he is worse than the other side.

I never said anyone was worse than anyone. You did. This line of discussion started because you said Harmony keeping information from Wax is worse than anything Kelsier has ever done. I find it difficult to understand how withholding information is worse than killing someone's husband in cold blood. Further when withholding said information is with the consent of the person you are withholding it from. 

 

If you really want to oversimply it to strawman levels, Kelsier removed Vin's autonomy and right to choose. Harmony conversely honored Wax's autonomy and decision. Essentially because of Harmony's future sight, he asked Wax's permission, and got approval. Wax confirms those expectations true. Wax admits he would want to be the one to kill her. Wax admits he wouldn't want her to live in that state. Wax admits had he known it was her, he wouldn't be able to kill her. And Wax admits he would have asked Harmony to keep that info from him, so he could do what needed to be done. So Harmony did not use Wax as a tool. Harmony did exactly what Wax would have wanted him to do. So since Harmony did not manipulate Wax or use him, then the only action here being discussed is withholding information at the express request of the individual who the information is being kept from. To wit, I do not think that is comparable to murdering someone's husband in front of them. Quote below. 

 

Bands of Mourning page 394

 

"Why" Wax asked

"Because you demanded it of me."

"No I didn't!"

"Yes. A part of you did. An eventuality I can see, one of many possible Waxilliums, all you - yet not set. Know yourself, Waxillium. Would you have had another kill her? Someone she didn't know?"

"No" he whispered

"Would you have had her live on, a slave in her mind? Corrupted by that cursed spike that would forever leave her scarred, even if replaced?"

"No" He was crying

"And if you had known" Harmony said, holding his eyes "that you'd never have been able to pull that trigger unless your eyes were veiled? If you'd realized what knowledge of the truth would do to you - stilling your hand and trapping her in an endless prison of madness - what would you have asked of me?"

"Don't tell me" Wax whispered, squeezing his eyes shut

Edited February 25, 2022 by Pathfinder