Why KoW(t) COULD have been the Bondsmith book

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, CryoZenith said:

I mean that if Brandon will have decided to randomly give you a cameo appearance in Stormlight 6 or something, I would have been incorrect about my assessment that my least favorite character in SA is Venli :3.

... Ouch.

[CryoZenith he/him]

Not you, you're just salt on the (spiritweb) wound opened by Syl originally :3 (if it even means anything for something to have happened originally in relation to something else. Eternalism is confusing.)

[bmcclure7]

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

HoA

  Reveal hidden contents

Everyone knew Vin had an earing, and the terris prophesies were a major focus, until people started bringing it up even I had forgoteen Dalinar's promise.

And on top of that, I doubt it's possible to possess a human who is unaffected by hemalurgy 

 What if that person swallowed a gemstone?   We have seen this done already with the unmade. It effectively gives humans a gem heart.  I think this would allow them to be possessed by a fused. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 What if that person swallowed a gemstone?   We have seen this done already with the unmade. It effectively gives humans a gem heart.  I think this would allow them to be possessed by a fused. 

The unmade was specifically in the gemstone, and Amaram was still there, when a fused takes over, the host is killed.

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The unmade was specifically in the gemstone, and Amaram was still there, when a fused takes over, the host is killed.

 That I think has more to do with the nature of fused and unmade. It doesn't change the idea though in principle since others spren  Can enter a gem heart without possessing The singer.  It is only when an fussed enters a gem heart that possessing/death happens.   So it could still work in theory of course. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Frustration a point to consider:

From Oathbringer, Chapter 115: The Wrong Passion

Quote

“Passion,” Odium said. “There is great Passion here.”
Venli felt cold.
“I’ve prepared these men for decades,” Odium said. “Men who want nothing so much as something to break, to gain vengeance against the one who killed their highprince. Let the singers watch and learn. I’ve prepared a different army to fight for us today.”
Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse, led them.
Deep within his helm, something started glowing red.
The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls.
“Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?” Turash said to Subservience.
“Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash,” Odium said. “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment.”
Ten thousand Alethi in green uniforms gripped their weapons, their eyes glowing a deep, dangerous red.

Note that this is a distinct bond than the bond spren make to form Radiants, as Turash wouldn't be surprised by that.

 

And from Mistborn: The Bands of Mourning (spoiler)

Spoiler

The red eyed, possessed Faceless Immortal of the Set. A beggar who was taken.

 

[Frustration]

Just now, Ixthos said:

@Frustration a point to consider:

From Oathbringer, Chapter 115: The Wrong Passion

Note that this is a distinct bond than the bond spren make to form Radiants, as Turash wouldn't be surprised by that.

But once Nergaoul was bound they went back to normal.

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

And from Mistborn: The Bands of Mourning (spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

The red eyed, possessed Faceless Immortal of the Set. A beggar who was taken.

 

Spoiler

We don't know if the beggar died for that and even if he did, the Set has increadible hemalurgic knowledge

 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

But once Nergaoul was bound they went back to normal.

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We don't know if the beggar died for that and even if he did, the Set has increadible hemalurgic knowledge

 

Yes, but they were still possessed. They still had their minds dominated, and as I said in this theory Gavinor is eventually freed. The point isn't that the overall effects are identical but rather that it is possible for humans to be overwhelmed and controlled by a spren or Cogntitive Shadow.

Mistborn: Bands of Mourning

Spoiler

It is true we don't know, but by implication this was someone who was just taken, and glowing red eyes is evocative of the Fused with their corrupted investiture, rather than anything involving Hemalurgy. And as Trell is from another world it makes sense it wouldn't be through the use of the Metallic Arts. Considering Ruin, the origin of Hemalurgy and its most knowledgeable and accomplished practitioner, couldn't possess someone with a single spike, and multiple spikes warp the body, it is unlikely that Trell could do better by itself using the system that was controlled by Ruin.

 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Yes, but they were still possessed. They still had their minds dominated, and as I said in this theory Gavinor is eventually freed. The point isn't that the overall effects are identical but rather that it is possible for humans to be overwhelmed and controlled by a spren or Cogntitive Shadow.

"Unlike the voidspren that inhabits your gemheart, my soul cannot share a dweling." -A rought quote from OB.

3 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Mistborn: Bands of Mourning

  Hide contents

It is true we don't know, but by implication this was someone who was just taken, and glowing red eyes is evocative of the Fused with their corrupted investiture, rather than anything involving Hemalurgy. And as Trell is from another world it makes sense it wouldn't be through the use of the Metallic Arts. Considering Ruin, the origin of Hemalurgy and its most knowledgeable and accomplished practitioner, couldn't possess someone with a single spike, and multiple spikes warp the body, it is unlikely that Trell could do better by itself using the system that was controlled by Ruin.

 

Spoiler

Considering Trell can make spikes that  prevent Ruin from seeing them I don't think it's impossible that Trell can do things with hemalurgy that Ruin can't.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Frustration

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Frustration said:

"Unlike the voidspren that inhabits your gemheart, my soul cannot share a dweling." -A rought quote from OB.

I don't see how that is relevant, and it would seem to contradict what we saw in Oathbringer, including what was described as a spren literally weaving itself into their souls to control them. Here is the full quote:

Quote

“Please,” Venli said. “He was precious to me. Can you return him?”
“He has passed into the blindness beyond,” Demid said. “Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded—which resides in your gemheart—my soul cannot share its dwelling. Nothing, not Regrowth or act of Odium, can restore him now.”

Note that this is specifically about a Fused's soul and a Listener. Gavilar and Gavinor are neither. You also need to ask why a Fused can't share a soul, but a Voidspren can.

 

Mistborn: Bands of Mourning and general Mistborn

Spoiler

that is likely because of the metal involved being attuned to Trell, and it still was specifically one spike - it isn't doing things Ruin couldn't, but using elements with a stronger link to Trell than Ruin within Ruin's system. We know Shards can interact with one another's systems, as shown when Leras used Ati's metal as part of its own system, and Lerasium spikes having a function in Hemalurgy. Either way it isn't showing Trell doing more or something Ruin couldn't do, as if more spikes had been used then Harmony could have sensed and stopped them. We also know, as per the blurb for The Lost Metal, that Trell can block Harmony's sight in general, so it seems Trell's investiture can interfere with another Shard, but that doesn't mean it can do more with that Shard's magic than the Shard can, only exploit loopholes to avoid its attention or influence.

 

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/11/2022 at 3:58 PM, Ixthos said:

I don't see how that is relevant, and it would seem to contradict what we saw in Oathbringer, including what was described as a spren literally weaving itself into their souls to control them. Here is the full quote:

Note that this is specifically about a Fused's soul and a Listener.

Yeah. Fused "cannot share their dwelling" but that is specifically a Fused thing that wouldn't apply to other kinds of control or influence, through Voidspren or Unmade etc. Who knows how a human-Fused-equivalent would work?

Though I would kind of expect Gavilar to become an "Odium-Herald" rather than possess anyone.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah. Fused "cannot share their dwelling" but that is specifically a Fused thing that wouldn't apply to other kinds of control or influence, through Voidspren or Unmade etc. Who knows how a human-Fused-equivalent would work?

Though I would kind of expect Gavilar to become an "Odium-Herald" rather than possess anyone.

Indeed. The reason for Gavilar possessing Gavinor temporarily is mainly for the child champion theories, the fact they are connected, and the creepiness and showing the depth of moral depravity. If this theory is right, I think a Bondsmith - Dalinar - ripping him out of Gavinor and thus freeing Gavinor would be a powerful symbol.

[Use the Falchion]

I've been thinking it could be the Bondsmith book because every book sort of has this bookends or parallel theming going on. 

In TWOK, we start the book with a Herald's death and Kaladin as a free man turned into a slave. The book ends with Kaladin being freed from slavery and with a Herald's return. 

WOR, we start off with the death of Shallan's mother and end in that same place. There's also the theme of responsibility for one's actions throughout. Shallan feels responsible for her family. Kaladin struggles with what's justice and what's revenge, and how much is his to take. Szeth is broken by his sense of responsibility and lack of accountability. 

OB, we start and end the book with a wedding. 

RoW, we start the book with Kaladin being forced out of duty, and end with Kaladin openly setting himself aside from the active-duty role, or at least acknowledging he isn't fit for it anymore. 

 

I think Book 5's parallel story could have been the story of Dalinar and Tanalan Jr. In OB's flashbacks, we see how Dalinar doesn't kill a child and it leads to the death of his wife, his own sanity breaking, and his nigh corruption at the hands of Odium. I think this could have easily been Book 5's arc in a different world. The Tanalan's death would have worked as it does in OB, as a point of horror for the audience, because as horrible as Dalinar had been up to that point, he hadn't killed a child yet. When we find out later that Dalinar didn't kill the child, we're relieved. This would contrast the present, where Dalinar is faced against another child, this time his own great-nephew/step-grandson, and we the audience may be actively rooting for him to kill the child, lest worse things happen. We're rooting for him to kill the child, because we're seeing the consequences of Dalinar not doing so in his own life. But this is where the book tells us we're wrong for having caveats and exceptions in our morals. Dalinar's lack of killing the child back then freed him up to be the man who he could become (eventually). So Dalinar isn't going to fall to the same temptation again, even if it dooms all of Roshar.

But in that tragedy, there may be victory to be found...the themes of a child picking up his father's banner - from Gavilar picking up the ancient Kholin banner, to Dalinar picking up the Knights Radiant banner, to Tanalan picking up his father's banner - would be carried on, but this time with Kaladin, Son of Tanavast, picking up Honor's banner and ascending. Some of this could still happen. I believe some of this will happen, but it will be with different themes and meanings rather than the ones that could have been. Maybe, like Book 1, our final chapters will be with Kaladin, then Szeth, then the Heralds and Wit together. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Use the Falchion