Why KoW(t) COULD have been the Bondsmith book

[Ixthos he/him]

This is something I've become more and more sure of since I read this idea in @Jofwu's thread about how Gavilar could be the champion of Odium. It would be because the book would feature and be about FOUR Bondsmiths.

1. Dalinar - bonded to the Stormfather
2. Navani - bonded to the Sibling
3. Ishar - bonded to the Bondsmith Honourblade
4. Gavilar - bonded to the Stormfather

 

What, were there two Stormfather bonds in that list?

Yes.

 

I will be brief. Here are some important facts:

 

Fact one: Dalinar swore he would always give way to Gavilar. From Oathbringer Chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed

Quote

Dalinar sat down on a stone, pulling free his helm and accepting water from a young messenger woman. Never again, he swore to himself. I give way for Gavilar in all things. Let him have the throne, let him have love.
I must never be king.

 

Fact two: Gavilar was the one who originally began to bond the Stormfather, but never fully reached it:

Quote

Ted Herman (paraphrased)

Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes to both.

Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

Fact three: the contest is more likely to be spiritual rather than physical - and involve the nature of being a Bondsmith. From Rhythm of War Chapter 99: Not Bound

Quote

“He was so certain he could turn the Blackthorn that he bet almost everything on that singular gamble. Now he must be scared. While he pretends he has a dozen other plans, he’s scrambling to locate a champion who can legitimately win. Because he knows—same as I’m telling you—that the contest won’t only be about who can stab the hardest with their spear.”
“What will it be about then?”
“Same thing it’s always about, Jasnah,” Wit said. “The hearts of men and women. Do you trust the hearts of those who fight on your side?”

Bondsmiths are about uniting mankind, and about the heart of men. And the state of Dalinar's heart is of utmost importance throughout the Stormlight Archives.

 

We know Kaladin and Szeth are going to go on a wacky buddy-cop road trip to visit Ishar, Herald of Luck and wielder of the Honourblade of the Bondsmiths. We know Shallan will be dealing with the captured Ba-Ado-Mishaim, who was imprisoned by a Bondsmith and likewise is an Unmade with the power to connect herself to an entire people. We know Navani and the Sibling will be interacting, and we know Dalinar, the Bondsmith of the Stormfather, will be involved in the contest of champions. We don't know what Venli will be doing, but it may perhaps involve the Nightwatcher, or we may see more of the Nightwatcher from Taravangian's perspective, especially if he talks with Cultivation about when she gave him the boon and the bane, and how it normally works when the Nightwatcher is the one doing it.

 

We have a lot of Bondsmiths here, and Bondsmith related elements. But I think there is one more. To summarise this theory again, which builds off of @Jofwu's one linked above, I think the following is going to happen:

 

• Gavilar is a cognitive shadow
• Gavilar is going to possess Gavinor, and announce who he is to Dalinar and Navani and possibly Jasnah (child champion theory)
• Gavilar, who Dalinar swore to obey, who he swore he would always give primacy to, is going to claim the Stormfather as his, both by the Stormfather having chosen him first, and by Dalinar always yielding to him
• Dalinar and/or the Stormfather is going to feel that, however wrong it is, the oaths that he made, even though it was a private one, is still binding, and that he can't break his word. He has to yield his will to another. Does this remind anyone else of a certain Assassin in White? The same assassin who killed Gavilar.
• There is likely going to be a period where Gavilar - in Gavinor's body - is interacting with some or all of the characters who had flashbacks featuring him, or referencing those events. This will likely including talking to Navani, and the question raised if she still is his wife or not - she will definitely tell him where to put his "marriage" to her, though Dalinar may feel deeply troubled, especially as he swore to let Gavilar have Navani. He may also interact with Jasnah and others, all of which are going to point out his hypocrasy, his theft of his grandson's life, but Gavilar will shrug them all off - they just don't understand, the ends justify the means! (Which is definitely NOT an honourable attitude)
• The day arrived. At the top of Urithiru, Gavilar/Gavinor, who has slowly been leeching Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather, is going to claim almost all of it, is going to pull an Ishar to declare himself Honours representative - the "true" man of Honour, who laboured to unit the world, to bring glory to Alethkar (yeah, that turned out well), who had all these plans to undermine Odium (who he happens to be serving now), and will lead ... surely everyone can see that he should be the Bondsmith, not his poor, wretched, near-animal of a brother, whatever Dalinar may see himself as now?
• Throughout this the Stormfather's growing understanding of humanity, and human relations to oaths, will factor in, as he comes to accept that Dalinar should not be bound to serve his brother
• And then the twist happens, and Dalinar takes back the bond, and accepts that some old oaths are not as binding as they believe, that sometimes "a hypocrite is a man who is in the process of changing", and that former oaths needed to begin one's change need not be what leads them further when they become a burden rather than an aid. And he is going to rip Gavilar from Gavinor's body, and cast him out. The man with the greatest bond to Honour isn't the Pharisee raising his eyes to Heaven in expectation of received glory for his own righteousness, but the lowly tax collector who beats his breast and asked for forgiveness, to be put right with those who he has wronged, and is forgiven. It is the man who acknowledges his failings and strives to be better who is the true Bondsmith.

 

I realise this isn't much of a theory, but I would like to hear your thoughts  have a great day or afternoon or evening or night!

Edited February 9, 2022 by Ixthos

[stonehand]

Yo I just got chills. What an incredible capstone moment this would be for Dalinar.

There seems to be a pattern where the 4th ideal is kind of a reversal of the Ideals' overall theme, and something akin to "I accept that some oaths must be broken, if they are no longer honorable" could fit that pattern as Dalinar's 4th ideal.

[therunner he/him]

This sounds awesome not gonna lie
It flows really well to me, and it would tie the potential individual storylines together.

One thing that feels off to me is that Gavilar would posses Gavinor, as the kid is ~3-4 years old only. That would make a lot of scene very weird, especially those with Navani.

I would lean more in direction of him possessing either some Singer (as through gemhearts they are well suited for 'possession') or that T-Odium would grant Gavilar a body, as a dark mirror of Herald. Afterall T-Odium will not necessarily have the same hangups about investing too much of himself as R-Odium did.

[Ixthos he/him]

2 hours ago, stonehand said:

Yo I just got chills. What an incredible capstone moment this would be for Dalinar.

There seems to be a pattern where the 4th ideal is kind of a reversal of the Ideals' overall theme, and something akin to "I accept that some oaths must be broken, if they are no longer honorable" could fit that pattern as Dalinar's 4th ideal.

Thanks  

That does make sense. Something that had bothered me when the knights were first forming was the issue of the humans effectively becoming spren, rigid and inflexible. I think it more likely now is that they are each taking on the best properties of the other, and the best forms of an ideal are those that have nuance, that it isn't so straightforwards, and the fourth ideal as understanding this is a key element. Your description of the fourth oath for Bondsmiths makes sense 

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

This sounds awesome not gonna lie
It flows really well to me, and it would tie the potential individual storylines together.

One thing that feels off to me is that Gavilar would posses Gavinor, as the kid is ~3-4 years old only. That would make a lot of scene very weird, especially those with Navani.

I would lean more in direction of him possessing either some Singer (as through gemhearts they are well suited for 'possession') or that T-Odium would grant Gavilar a body, as a dark mirror of Herald. Afterall T-Odium will not necessarily have the same hangups about investing too much of himself as R-Odium did.

Thanks!

I think, if he does possess Gavinor, that actually would help in the creepy factor - you have the added element of how monsterous and amoral Gavilar is, the combination of the life Dalinar may have to kill being both his brother and his grand-nephew, and the eeriness of a little child acting like a grown man.

That could work too, possessing a Singer, though it may not have the same depth of a punch as seeing a beloved child suddenly overwhelmed by someone you used to love. A random Singer taken over is the same horror they face with the Fused, but somewhat deadened as they are used to Singers being taken over. But a child you love, possessed by someone else you loved, and in that seeing the depth of evil in their soul ... 

[CryoZenith he/him]

This thread reminded me of this very interesting WoB.

Quote

Avivsm

Can a Nahel Bond be stagnant because of a spren's inability to progress? If the spren has a character deficiency they cannot break through or something?

Brandon Sanderson

Can a spren cause the Nahel Bond to not progress? This is possible. Not very common but it is possible.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

It really feels like, if it is the bondsmith 4th ideal, "I accept that some oaths must be broken, if they are no longer honorable" is a concept that the Stormfather is not ready to accept yet. He seems like the type of person who has a hard time stomaching that level of flexibility, given how he reacted to the Recreance, for example.

[NameIess he/him]

I love everything about this theory (in all the wrong ways of course) except for the part about Dalinar winning the contest of champions. I need him to die so we get fused Dalinar, the tragedy would just be too awesome.

[Frustration he/him]

16 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Fact one: Dalinar swore he would always give way to Gavilar. From Oathbringer Chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed

Fact two: Gavilar was the one who originally began to bond the Stormfather, but never fully reached it:

Both of those are too small of details to be picked up on by casual readers.

[Ixthos he/him]

9 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

This thread reminded me of this very interesting WoB.

It really feels like, if it is the bondsmith 4th ideal, "I accept that some oaths must be broken, if they are no longer honorable" is a concept that the Stormfather is not ready to accept yet. He seems like the type of person who has a hard time stomaching that level of flexibility, given how he reacted to the Recreance, for example.

Well, if this the theory is right then the Stormfather's character growth will certainly be a key part - nice catch 

 

8 hours ago, Nameless said:

I love everything about this theory (in all the wrong ways of course) except for the part about Dalinar winning the contest of champions. I need him to die so we get fused Dalinar, the tragedy would just be too awesome.

Thanks 

It certainly could go either way, though I'm hoping we get a slightly bittersweet ending, as it can't just end on a down note or fans will demand the sequel series immediately. Maybe we can still get both.

 

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Both of those are too small of details to be picked up on by casual readers.

You mean like ... Mistborn: Hero of Ages spoilers:

Spoiler

Vin becoming Preservation due to her spike earing being removed, or Sazed becoming Harmony due to the foreshadowing of "baring it on his arms"? Just because it is subtle doesn't mean it isn't there, or that everyone needs to see it coming for it to be clear in hindsight 

 

[CryoZenith he/him]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

It certainly could go either way, though I'm hoping we get a slightly bittersweet ending, as it can't just end on a down note or fans will demand the sequel series immediately. Maybe we can still get both.

Well, Todium is not Rayse. Todium is a *relatively* reasonable lad. Him winning the contest of champions doesn't spell doom for Rosharan humans or anything, just doom for Dalinar.

[Ixthos he/him]

Just now, CryoZenith said:

Well, Todium is not Rayse. Todium is a *relatively* reasonable lad. Him winning the contest of champions doesn't spell doom for Rosharan humans or anything, just doom for Dalinar.

And for the Cosmere 

[CryoZenith he/him]

I mean, does it? He's still stuck on Roshar. The contest specifically doesn't address his ability to leave the system, right?

[Ixthos he/him]

Just now, CryoZenith said:

I mean, does it? He's still stuck on Roshar. The contest specifically doesn't address his ability to leave the system, right?

It depends. Both Rayse and Taravangian looked out from Roshar at the rest of the Cosmere and have expressed a desire to rule or change it. Wit assumed that whatever happened everything would be fine, that either way Rayse would be trapped, but then realised there was a loophole, but Taravangian removed his memories of the encounter that lead him to that conclusion, so it suggests Hoid realised there is still a way for Odium to leave the system. Taravangian may be fine staying in the system but sending forces out, or he may have a way to nullify the bindings.

[CryoZenith he/him]

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

Wit assumed that whatever happened everything would be fine, that either way Rayse would be trapped, but then realised there was a loophole

Ooh, *that's* what I was forgetting about. Good catch.

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

You mean like ... Mistborn: Hero of Ages spoilers:

  Hide contents

Vin becoming Preservation due to her spike earing being removed, or Sazed becoming Harmony due to the foreshadowing of "baring it on his arms"? Just because it is subtle doesn't mean it isn't there, or that everyone needs to see it coming for it to be clear in hindsight 

 

HoA

Spoiler

Everyone knew Vin had an earing, and the terris prophesies were a major focus, until people started bringing it up even I had forgoteen Dalinar's promise.

And on top of that, I doubt it's possible to possess a human who is unaffected by hemalurgy 

[stonehand]

13 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

This thread reminded me of this very interesting WoB.

It really feels like, if it is the bondsmith 4th ideal, "I accept that some oaths must be broken, if they are no longer honorable" is a concept that the Stormfather is not ready to accept yet. He seems like the type of person who has a hard time stomaching that level of flexibility, given how he reacted to the Recreance, for example.

This would be really interesting to read. All the nahel bond business so far has been about the human learning and growing and changing with their spren kind of helping them along. Dalinar being ready for the 4th ideal and the stormfather being the one that has to grow his perspective would be a neat reversal.

[Ixthos he/him]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

HoA

  Hide contents

Everyone knew Vin had an earing, and the terris prophesies were a major focus, until people started bringing it up even I had forgoteen Dalinar's promise.

And on top of that, I doubt it's possible to possess a human who is unaffected by hemalurgy 

Gavilar has been a constant focus of this story, every prologue centred on him, including his declaration he will live forever. And again, readers picking up on it isn't the most essential part, only that there are hints that can be pointed to after the fact. Also

Spoiler

How often were the details of the Terris prophesies, in particular that singular element mentioned above, covered or given any special focus?

 

For the Hemalurgy part, why? Remember that Bondsmiths show powers that are in effect Hemalurgy without the spike. Hemalurgy manifests spiritweb affecting properties via Ruins investiture using a metal spike, while Bondsmiths manifest that power through touch. No Mistborn spoilers but we know the holes which allow one to be controlled are in a sense allowing in external connection, and Bondsmiths manipulate connection.

 

[Edit] Also, for both parts, remember the series is repeatably showing possession as a thing, including a Fused surprised during Oathbringer that humans could be possessed by spren, bonding them.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ixthos

[Frustration he/him]

24 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

For the Hemalurgy part, why? Remember that Bondsmiths show powers that are in effect Hemalurgy without the spike. Hemalurgy manifests spiritweb affecting properties via Ruins investiture using a metal spike, while Bondsmiths manifest that power through touch. No Mistborn spoilers but we know the holes which allow one to be controlled are in a sense allowing in external connection, and Bondsmiths manipulate connection.

No, hemalurgy creastes a hole into someone's soul that allows them to be controlled, Singers have a similar effect with their gemhearts, humans don't have that naturally, and I don't think it's something Bondsmiths could replicate.

26 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

[Edit] Also, for both parts, remember the series is repeatably showing possession as a thing, including a Fused surprised during Oathbringer that humans could be possessed by spren, bonding them.

But the second Nergaoul was captured they returned to normal.

[Ixthos he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

No, hemalurgy creastes a hole into someone's soul that allows them to be controlled, Singers have a similar effect with their gemhearts, humans don't have that naturally, and I don't think it's something Bondsmiths could replicate.

When Ishar was removing traits from Dalinar, or trying to, Dalinar was in immense pain. I doubt this was a process that wouldn't wound the spiritweb. Also remember the cracks can come from any source and still work - the insane could also be manipulated, more spikes add more holes which makes it easier, and the idea is Gavilar and Gavinor have a strong connection. Knights themselves must be cracked for a spren to weave into their spiritweb, but Lopen shows you don't have to have that, yet it makes the process easier. Spren by nature don't normally possess.

Also, it is key to remember that just because something hasn't been shown to occur yet doesn't mean it won't happen. Could you have predicted Nightblood could kill Rayse? There are enough reasons to think this could happen without concluding it can, and that is where the distinction lies.

 

Just now, Frustration said:

But the second Nergaoul was captured they returned to normal.

Yes, because Nergaoul was the one possessing them - part of this theory is that Gavilar will be removed from Gavinor, rather than overwrite him perminantly. Also, on that topic, we know a gemstone, swallowed, allows Yelig-Nar to merge with someone, and they then have to fight to keep control and prevent themselves from being overwhelmed. If Gavinor swallowed a gemstone this could facilitate the possession.

[CryoZenith he/him]

35 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Knights themselves must be cracked for a spren to weave into their spiritweb, but Lopen shows you don't have to have that, yet it makes the process easier. 

I mostly think of "you need a damaged spiritweb to use arcane arts" as a generally useful heuristic rather than as a Law of PhysicsTM. We have at least one example already of a magic systems where (seemingly) no spirit web damage needs to happen before you can do stuff, forgery (it's not like allomancy where you need the gene actively snapped, it seems to work off being born in MaiPon and then just studying the thing). So most people who can use some form of arcana do have a cracked spiritweb, and it does help, but it's not as strict a requirement as we've been lead to believe.

Either that or *everyone* naturally has sufficient microcracks to use at least minor magics (sort of in the vein of how IRL you can say "everyone is subconsciously racist to some degree") but that leads us in the same direction, instrumentally.

[Ixthos he/him]

@CryoZenith Your idea of a base level of damage all people have due to differing from the ideal version of yourself makes sense, and I think cracks are more a way of thinking of the nature of these "flaws" in a more poetic way, little imperfections that allow connections and access to deeper parts of the person. The deeper the cracks the more quickly one can connect to deeper elements of someone's soul, but even the small cracks allow some access, and as a spren becomes a part of someone the deeper its connections go.

[CryoZenith he/him]

Hm. I have a small issue with the phrasing "differing from the ideal version of yourself". Because that alludes to the way healing works in the cosmere, which funnily enough is evidence against some of this stuff. Like, when someone with healing magic heals themselves, they don't become worse at healing magic. (and you could argue that's because they're only healing physical body, not their spiritweb, but Brandon explicitly said that gold compounders can heal their spiritweb itself, and so can Hoid, so that doesn't work). If there was a strict connection (lowercase c) between performing arcana and spiritweb cracks, in the sense that ability to perform arcana was strictly conditioned by there existing cracks that could be filled by foreign investiture, even if it's not a linear relationship, then you'd expect to see at least some loss of power from self-healing, but there seems to be none.

So like, to clarify my exact hypothesis, I think everyone has microcracks in their spiritweb, sure, but I think that even someone with a perfectly intact spiritweb could use minor arcana, whether that person exists or not.

[Ixthos he/him]

Just now, CryoZenith said:

Hm. I have a small issue with the phrasing "differing from the ideal version of yourself". Because that alludes to the way healing works in the cosmere, which funnily enough is evidence against some of this stuff. Like, when someone with healing magic heals themselves, they don't become worse at healing magic. (and you could argue that's because they're only healing physical body, not their spiritweb, but Brandon explicitly said that gold compounders can heal their spiritweb itself, and so can Hoid, so that doesn't work). If there was a strict connection (lowercase c) between performing arcana and spiritweb cracks, in the sense that ability to perform arcana was strictly conditioned by there existing cracks that could be filled by foreign investiture, even if it's not a linear relationship, then you'd expect to see at least some loss of power from self-healing, but there seems to be none.

So like, to clarify my exact hypothesis, I think everyone has microcracks in their spiritweb, sure, but I think that even someone with a perfectly intact spiritweb could use minor arcana, whether that person exists or not.

The ideal Cosmere human can't use healing, but the ideal version of a Feruchemist, gold Ferring, Surgebinder, etc., can. The ideal version of someone, and the way they are now, are not aligned, and this manifests as points on their soul that are "rough", they are like the seeds a crystal can grow around. Because they don't match what the person could be, there is a place where something else can be attached. Once attached you are no longer working towards being the ideal human, but the ideal of a different version of a human, like a Surgebinder becoming closer to the ideal of their Order, a Windrunner becoming closer to the ideal of a human with the power to protect - a manifestation of protection - or a Stornward towards the ideal of someone who is reliable - the manifestation of reliability.

This isn't to say the person's self perception and ideal in the Spiritual Realm don't factor in, but rather that we are discussing three separate things, and a fourth component, the fourth being their cognitive perception. The three main elements are the ideal human, the ideal version of themselves (which is connected to the idea of the ideal human but distinct from it, as it is an instance of it) and who they currently are spiritually.

As we know and you mentioned, a gold Ferring or a gold twinborn can heal from a Hemalurgic spike, even though that damages their spiritual component - the healing actually alters their spiritual component. But we also know that it is filtered through their cognitive perception - Rysn couldn't be healed because she now say her paralysed legs as a part of her. Her ideal self has functioning legs, but her cognitive perception hinders that.

Still, to your point, it could be there is still room to "attach" something to the ideal human, but perhaps the ideal human already would be someone who could use Investiture, and the attachments are more in line with bringing someone into that ideal.

[CryoZenith he/him]

Oh wow, you just reminded me that time and causality are different in the SR than in the PR or CR. So then the ideal of what you could be can allow for present you to be filled with investiture that flows through cracks opened... in the future.

Ugh. It's definitely plausible, Syl definitely makes a solid argument for this working, but I'll be honest, man, I just hate reverse causality :)).

[Ixthos he/him]

Just now, CryoZenith said:

Oh wow, you just reminded me that time and causality are different in the SR than in the PR or CR. So then the ideal of what you could be can allow for present you to be filled with investiture that flows through cracks opened... in the future.

Ugh. It's definitely plausible, Syl definitely makes a solid argument for this working, but I'll be honest, man, I just hate reverse causality :)).

Or ... do you mean you will have hated reverse causality yesterday? 

[CryoZenith he/him]

Just now, Ixthos said:

Or ... do you mean you will have hated reverse causality yesterday? 

I mean that if Brandon will have decided to randomly give you a cameo appearance in Stormlight 6 or something, I would have been incorrect about my assessment that my least favorite character in SA is Venli :3.