NameIess Posted March 10, 2022 Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Valigus said: That’s fair, my point isn’t that he can win but that we need to be aware that future develops with kaladin specifically could change the number outcome of this fight. We can argue about those future developments when they come about. We've had multiple threads arguing this subject, and I doubt we're going to stop making them anytime soon. Edited March 10, 2022 by Nameless
CryoZenith he/him Posted March 10, 2022 Posted March 10, 2022 This is off topic. Regardless of what powers being a Son of Tanavast entails, they're not powers related to being a 4th ideal radiant, so should have no bearing in a powerscaling debate between a fullborn and a 4th ideal radiant.
cometaryorbit Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Nameless said: I think we're at a standstill in this argument. I think that making a Bondsmith should take an extremely large amount of investiture, and that they will never be copied on a large scale. They way they've been shown as special and the fact that Bondsmith squires did not get any powers despite swearing oaths is to me evidence that being a Bondsmith requires a ton of Investiture. You disagree, and I don't think we're making any progress in this argument. So let's move on, this argument was only tangentially related anyways. Your original argument was that Atium would be fairly easy to soulcast, here's a WoB that says it wouldn't be: Yeah, I think we need to agree to disagree on that one. Huh. That does seem fairly conclusive*. That strikes me as super weird since Atium can be Pushed/Pulled without unusual difficulty, and Soulcasting is better than most magics at dealing with Investiture interference. Well, godmetals are weird, and Atium maybe more so. *unless we want to go the direction of "pure atium is one thing, Era 1 alloyed atium is something else"... which might actually resolve that. It might be interesting to specifically ask Brandon "could Jasnah have soulcasted the Lord Ruler's metalminds". Edited March 11, 2022 by cometaryorbit
CryoZenith he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 I don't think it's that wild to speculate that Brandon now regrets that he made Atium easy to push-pull, and if he had to write mistborn era 1 all over again, that would be one of the things he would change. I don't think this was meant to holistically make sense.
NameIess Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Yeah, I think we need to agree to disagree on that one. Huh. That does seem fairly conclusive*. That strikes me as super weird since Atium can be Pushed/Pulled without unusual difficulty, and Soulcasting is better than most magics at dealing with Investiture interference. Well, godmetals are weird, and Atium maybe more so. *unless we want to go the direction of "pure atium is one thing, Era 1 alloyed atium is something else"... which might actually resolve that. It might be interesting to specifically ask Brandon "could Jasnah have soulcasted the Lord Ruler's metalminds". Here's a WoB on that. Brandon hadn't decided that investiture resists investiture yet: Quote Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)
cometaryorbit Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 Oh I agree that the out-of-universe reason is that that hadn't been decided yet. But given the recent WoB about Era 1 atium actually being an alloy, I'm wondering if that is partly intended to fix that issue.
Frustration Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 So Nameless I've had a chance to think about this. If breathing only causes stormlight to leak because of human flaws why does it cause stormlight to run out faster?
Primeival Chaos he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 Can't a fullborn just duralumin chromium a radiant? not even a challenge
Frustration Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 Just now, Primeval Chaos said: Can't a fullborn just duralumin chromium a radiant? not even a challenge Plate would block Chromium, Spoiler ProfessorWC Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems? Brandon Sanderson Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy. General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015) Starfishpr1me Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible? Brandon Sanderson So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else. You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult. If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016) Blightsong Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right? Questioner Is a Mistborn Invested? Brandon Sanderson The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no. Blightsong So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder. Questioner Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Much easier to simply beat them to death with Pewter
NameIess Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Plate would block Chromium, Reveal hidden contents ProfessorWC Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems? Brandon Sanderson Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy. General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015) Starfishpr1me Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible? Brandon Sanderson So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else. You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult. If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016) Blightsong Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right? Questioner Is a Mistborn Invested? Brandon Sanderson The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no. Blightsong So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder. Questioner Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Much easier to simply beat them to death with Pewter Those WoB's don't say that Plate blocks Chromium, only that a KR couldn't steal Stormlight from another KR. Chromium specializes in wiping out investiture that is being used.
Primeival Chaos he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: Plate would block Chromium, Reveal hidden contents ProfessorWC Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems? Brandon Sanderson Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy. General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015) Starfishpr1me Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible? Brandon Sanderson So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else. You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult. If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016) Blightsong Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right? Questioner Is a Mistborn Invested? Brandon Sanderson The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no. Blightsong So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder. Questioner Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Much easier to simply beat them to death with Pewter But couldn't they drain the shardplate then drain the radiant?
Frustration Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 Just now, Primeval Chaos said: But couldn't they drain the shardplate then drain the radiant? No, as the plate is still there. And I still hold that living plate doesn't require light to function. 6 minutes ago, Nameless said: Those WoB's don't say that Plate blocks Chromium, only that a KR couldn't steal Stormlight from another KR. Chromium specializes in wiping out investiture that is being used. I will conceed the posibility that deadplate could be stolen from, however draining someone on the other side of plate is compared to aluminum, even for a larkin Spoiler FirstRyder Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. havoc_mayhem Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection? Brandon Sanderson Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)
NameIess Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: I will conceed the posibility that deadplate could be stolen from, however draining someone on the other side of plate is compared to aluminum, even for a larkin Well, it's compared to aluminum, but then Brandon said that the Larkin could feed on the investiture that powers the Plate. So... that WoB sends some mixed messages.
Primeival Chaos he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 it doesnt matter anyways tho bc a 4th ideal radiant has absolutely no chance against a fullborn
NameIess Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 13 minutes ago, Primeval Chaos said: it doesnt matter anyways tho bc a 4th ideal radiant has absolutely no chance against a fullborn Yeah, it's pretty much irrelevant to this conversation. The Mistborn vs. Radiant discussion on the other hand...
Primeival Chaos he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 mistborn vs radiant. . . depends on how chromium would work on a radiant
NameIess Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 7 minutes ago, Primeval Chaos said: mistborn vs radiant. . . depends on how chromium would work on a radiant We can have this heated argument that will devolve into hundreds of pages of text walls and get the thread closed by the mods to let people cool off multiple times discussion in a different thread. Preferably after TLM comes out so we have more information. 1
Primeival Chaos he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: We can have this heated argument that will devolve into hundreds of pages of text walls and get the thread closed by the mods to let people cool off multiple times discussion in a different thread. Preferably after TLM comes out so we have more information. Ok. . . . but this is not over
NameIess Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 1 minute ago, Primeval Chaos said: Ok. . . . but this is not over It's never over. Don't worry about that.
Frustration Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, Primeval Chaos said: Ok. . . . but this is not over We call it the immortal thread for a reason. It's already like 78 pages.
Primeival Chaos he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: It's never over. Don't worry about that. "there's always another secret" -kelsier
CryoZenith he/him Posted March 11, 2022 Posted March 11, 2022 7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: But given the recent WoB about Era 1 atium actually being an alloy, I'm wondering if that is partly intended to fix that issue. I can't find it off the cuff, but there is a WoB where Brando says something along the lines of "well emeralds are just aluminum oxide, but they don't have any of the investiture-inert properties of aluminum metal." So it is definitely possible that when you sufficiently chemically alter something, it does the trick.
cometaryorbit Posted March 12, 2022 Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, CryoZenith said: I can't find it off the cuff, but there is a WoB where Brando says something along the lines of "well emeralds are just aluminum oxide, but they don't have any of the investiture-inert properties of aluminum metal." So it is definitely possible that when you sufficiently chemically alter something, it does the trick. Also, some aluminum alloys (used in guns in Era 2 Scadrial) are investiture-inert, but not all, apparently. So given the idea that Era 1 atium was actually an alloy, I think Soulcasting Era 1 atium might be possible again. But I don't think this is resolvable without either a new WoB or more information in The Lost Metal. We don't know enough about some of the Surges to know how they might (or might not) work in this kind of fight: - Division ... maybe it would be easier to break/melt metalminds off someone than to Soulcast them, or maybe it would be harder since Soulcasting is supposed to be good at dealing with Investiture interference - Transportation ... can Radiants use Transportation for within-Physical-Realm teleports like the Fused do? If so, maybe that could be used for an attack even faster than F-Steel speed? - Another thought is Illumination. Would tin sensory boost, or bronze Allomancy, help distinguish illusions from reality? If not, a Lightweaver vs Fullborn fight might be long and inconclusive. Edited March 12, 2022 by cometaryorbit
CryoZenith he/him Posted March 12, 2022 Posted March 12, 2022 2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: - Another thought is Illumination. Would tin sensory boost, or bronze Allomancy, help distinguish illusions from reality? If not, a Lightweaver vs Fullborn fight might be long and inconclusive. Illumination is not primarily mental illusions. It's (for the most part) photomancy. You are creating actual, real photons, real light. So I doubt tin would help pierce through it, but bronze probably would!
NameIess Posted March 12, 2022 Posted March 12, 2022 14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Also, some aluminum alloys (used in guns in Era 2 Scadrial) are investiture-inert, but not all, apparently. So given the idea that Era 1 atium was actually an alloy, I think Soulcasting Era 1 atium might be possible again. But I don't think this is resolvable without either a new WoB or more information in The Lost Metal. Making Atium into an alloy doesn't get rid of the Investiture in it, it only slightly dilutes it slightly. 14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: - Transportation ... can Radiants use Transportation for within-Physical-Realm teleports like the Fused do? If so, maybe that could be used for an attack even faster than F-Steel speed? Teleporting like the Pursuer wouldn't help. Kaladin was able to fight evenly against him, and F-steel would let you go faster than the Pursuer's maximum speed.
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