Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[NameIess]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

Disagree. This is exactly how storing Connections works - just store 100% of Connection and you dont have it.

So gravity stops pulling on you? Everyone you know and love forgets you exist completely?

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Dont need to be permanent. Just long enough until Bonsmith would be dead.

I don't think they could overpower the Bondsmith's abilities. The BoM were less invested than an ordinary shardblade, and they were completely full metalminds. I doubt any amount of tapping or storing connection couldn't simply be countered by the Bondsmith simply making the false connection stronger.

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

It make sense for me. From reader point of view, it should be something able to counter Bondsmith powers. And Duralumin Compounder seems to be literally designed to do exactly this.

Bondsmiths can burn worlds and bind gods. They frighten Shards with their powers. They are bound to three of the strongest non-shardic spren in the Cosmere. Duraluminum compounders, particularly after medallions become commonplace, are a dime a dozen in comparison. Why be afraid of a Bondsmith if their abilities are so easy to steal.

8 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

There is no such thing as "Blank Connection". Never.

So Duraluminumminds can't store that. So they must store the ability to make connections. So they can't make connections that would be totally impossible to make otherwise.

9 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Question is, what is cause, and what effect? And can be cause and effect tricked, as sometimes happeend with humans? Oaths are supose to reflect progress and caused with stronger Bond, but can we switch cause and effect and force swearing Oaths by tricking "system" with very strong Bond to Spren?

The spren has to agree. Nothing short of a Bondsmith can steal a Nahel bond against a spren's will. Otherwise you're making duraluminum compounders the most OP things in the Cosmere. They can steal spren bonds and are immune to bondsmiths? The oaths are bound to the strength of the bond, or else Kaladin would have gained Plate far before he did.

[bmcclure7]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:39 AM, Frustration said:

The density of Osmium only matters in that it will constrict on hin in all directions, effectivly crushing him. Even if he somehow survives, which would be a miricle unto itself pushing on it won't do anything ueful as it's one object with him inside of it, any push he does will shove him too.

Additionally he has been put on a timer as he can't breathe.

Compounding cadmium gives you infinite breath.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Compounding cadmium gives you infinite breath.

no, it increases the amount of breath you have stored. And only for as long as you can burn cadmium minds.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Frustration

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

Relatively sure that "blank connection" is the result of someone storing identity and then connection.

[CryoZenith he/him]

You know, there's a lot of ambiguity about how Identity and Connection work because a lot of the time, they seem to be intertwined and correlated.

What would be really helpful (and cool) is if Brandon wrote a short story starring two characters, one with extremely low levels of Identity but normal levels of Connection, one with normal levels of Connection but extremely low levels of Identity. So that we could empirically witness exactly what it looks like when only one of them is isolated and drained out.

It would even be useful to get evidence to the contrary: that maybe it's unworkable for something which lacks any meaningful sense of self to be, in a meaningful way, Connected to other things in a precise and calculable manner.

Edited February 19, 2022 by CryoZenith

[Frustration]

I think I might have done it, a way for a Radiant to win a 1 vs 1.

1. Be a Stoneward or Willshaper of at least 4th ideal
2. Use Cohesion to create a small nuclear blast(~.002 KT) right next to the fullborn from a mimimum of 150 meters away. This will keep you out of the blast radius while Shardplate protects you from Radiation
3. Repeat until the Fullborn dies.

Did I miss something?

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think I might have done it, a way for a Radiant to win a 1 vs 1.

1. Be a Stoneward or Willshaper of at least 4th ideal
2. Use Cohesion to create a small nuclear blast(~.002 KT) right next to the fullborn from a mimimum of 150 meters away. This will keep you out of the blast radius while Shardplate protects you from Radiation
3. Repeat until the Fullborn dies.

Did I miss something?

Radiant's can't explode stuff with Cohesion, or at least they couldn't. Might be able to now that Honor's dead.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Radiant's can't explode stuff with Cohesion, or at least they couldn't. Might be able to now that Honor's dead.

That's my thoughts to.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Frustration

[cometaryorbit]

I am still not convinced that Soulcasting them would necessarily fail, especially if they weren't actively tapping a ton of something at the time... Scadrial is relatively low-Investiture, and Allomancers don't really hold much Investiture within themselves.

It would be much less likely to work against TLR specifically, both because he's always tapping Atium, and also his status as a Sliver might protect him (in the same way that being a Sliver lets you choose to remain as a Cognitive Shadow). OTOH, his metalminds might be vulnerable (yeah, they're Invested, but maybe not that much on a Roshar scale).

[NameIess]

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I am still not convinced that Soulcasting them would necessarily fail, especially if they weren't actively tapping a ton of something at the time... Scadrial is relatively low-Investiture, and Allomancers don't really hold much Investiture within themselves.

It would be much less likely to work against TLR specifically, both because he's always tapping Atium, and also his status as a Sliver might protect him (in the same way that being a Sliver lets you choose to remain as a Cognitive Shadow). OTOH, his metalminds might be vulnerable (yeah, they're Invested, but maybe not that much on a Roshar scale).

TLR's metalminds have atium in them. And completely full metalminds are only slightly less invested than a shardblade. And a fullborn might constantly tap fortune, or intelligence, or strength, or determination, or healing. A lot of feruchemical attributes would be nice to constantly tap if you could afford to, which a fullborn likely can.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

no, it increases the amount of breath you have stored. And only for as long as you can burn cadmium minds.

Well, you don't have to be a diver to spend 15 minutes compounding breath. You'd easily accumulate hours of it. Spend a minute storing, then compound that a couple times and there you go, hours or days worth of breath.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Brandon hasn't done anything to balance the systems against each other and considers Roshar to be stronger.

19 hours ago, Nameless said:

I don't think they could overpower the Bondsmith's abilities.

Its not about "overpowering" Bondsmith powers. Duralumin Compounder is not stronger than Bondsmith, I never said that. Its about "re-directing" Bondsmith powers directed at Compounder. Power levels never decided about victory in Cosmere, this is not DragonBall. NightBlood is weaker (less-Invested) than Vessel, but can destroy him. Kelsier was not as powerfull as Inquisitor, but he killed him. Its how some abilities interact with each other - Aluminum Gnat is basicly powerless in comparison to Elsecaller, but counters one of his ability (Transformation) preaty hard. And looking this way Connector Ferring counters Bondsmith preaty hard too - because can simply store any of unwanted Connection in metalmind, if he of course have them.

19 hours ago, Nameless said:

So gravity stops pulling on you? Everyone you know and love forgets you exist completely?

Connection doesnt upply to the physical forces, but for the second part - probably yes, preaty much.

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's litterally what the southerners call it.

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Feruchemy has a limit on how much you can store, which is less than 100%

19 hours ago, Nameless said:

So Duraluminumminds can't store that. So they must store the ability to make connections. So they can't make connections that would be totally impossible to make otherwise.

I know they call it that way. But still what Aliik said later, contradicts this. Connection always is to something, so if you dont have Identity, you still would have Connection to Cosmere (and it would Connect you to the part of Cosmere you currently are in).

Also, if you cant store all your Atribute, how you can make Identity-less metalminds? To make them, you NEED TO store ALL Identity.

Books before Wobs, Frustration.

19 hours ago, Nameless said:

Nothing short of a Bondsmith can steal a Nahel bond against a spren's will.

Nothing short of UNCHAINED Bondsmith ;-)

19 hours ago, Nameless said:

Bondsmiths can burn worlds and bind gods. They frighten Shards with their powers. They are bound to three of the strongest non-shardic spren in the Cosmere. Duraluminum compounders, particularly after medallions become commonplace, are a dime a dozen in comparison. Why be afraid of a Bondsmith if their abilities are so easy to steal.

First, to burn world you need Bondsmith and something in addition, Bondsmith alone is not enough. Dawnshard for sure. Second, as earlier mentioned, this is not about raw power, is about how powers interact. Duralumin Compounder is not stronger then Bondsmith, is much more limited - but what he have is enough to make Bondsmith partialy unfunctional. Third, their abilities ARE easy to steal. With Hemalurgy.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I am still not convinced that Soulcasting them would necessarily fail, especially if they weren't actively tapping a ton of something at the time... Scadrial is relatively low-Investiture, and Allomancers don't really hold much Investiture within themselves.

When Marasi taped Bands, she literaly started glowing and emit Mists - waht is basicly equivalent of semi-opened Perpendicularity.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think I might have done it, a way for a Radiant to win a 1 vs 1.

1. Be a Stoneward or Willshaper of at least 4th ideal
2. Use Cohesion to create a small nuclear blast(~.002 KT) right next to the fullborn from a mimimum of 150 meters away. This will keep you out of the blast radius while Shardplate protects you from Radiation
3. Repeat until the Fullborn dies.

Did I miss something?

Cohesion cant explode stuff, is manipulation on the level of atoms, not subatomic. But this could work maybe with Elsecaller or Lightweaver. But still, this has to be surprise attack, if Fullborn would be able to shild himself with speedbubble he would be able to run and heal.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Its not about "overpowering" Bondsmith powers. Duralumin Compounder is not stronger than Bondsmith, I never said that. Its about "re-directing" Bondsmith powers directed at Compounder. Power levels never decided about victory in Cosmere, this is not DragonBall. NightBlood is weaker (less-Invested) than Vessel, but can destroy him. Kelsier was not as powerfull as Inquisitor, but he killed him. Its how some abilities interact with each other - Aluminum Gnat is basicly powerless in comparison to Elsecaller, but counters one of his ability (Transformation) preaty hard. And looking this way Connector Ferring counters Bondsmith preaty hard too - because can simply store any of unwanted Connection in metalmind, if he of course have them.

I don't think he can store fast enough to overpower a Bondsmith's abilities. And if the bondsmith simply cuts his connection to his metalminds, he can't even try to. Yes, a duraluminum compounder can mitigate the effects of a Bondsmith's abilities somewhat, but beat one? We're talking a Nightblood vs Odium situation here. You only win if you catch them by surprise, under a very specific set of circumstances.

7 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

I know they call it that way. But still what Aliik said later, contradicts this. Connection always is to something, so if you dont have Identity, you still would have Connection to Cosmere (and it would Connect you to the part of Cosmere you currently are in).

While inside the metalmind, it is blank connection. I would say it is similar to the Schrodinger's cat situation, where measuring the thing (or in this case tapping it) causes it to be defined.

10 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, if you cant store all your Atribute, how you can make Identity-less metalminds? To make them, you NEED TO store ALL Identity.

Books before Wobs, Frustration.

Actually, if you could store 100% of the attribute, making a medallion with all the powers would be easy. I believe the trace amounts of conflicting identity interfere with each other too much after a certain point, leading to it being impossible (as far as we know) for anyone besides a fullborn to make a fullborn medallion.

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

First, to burn world you need Bondsmith and something in addition, Bondsmith alone is not enough. Dawnshard for sure. Second, as earlier mentioned, this is not about raw power, is about how powers interact. Duralumin Compounder is not stronger then Bondsmith, is much more limited - but what he have is enough to make Bondsmith partialy unfunctional. Third, their abilities ARE easy to steal. With Hemalurgy.

We have no reason to believe that Ishar used a Dawnshard to catch Ashyn on fire forever. Definitely not enough to say one is needed "for sure". As for Bondsmith powers being easy to steal, no they aren't. A hemalurgic spike might be able to steal the bond, assuming the Bondsmith can't prevent that somehow, and that you can figure out what bindpoints to hit, but even after you manage it, the most likely outcome would be the Bondsmith spren taking one look at you and breaking their bond immediately.

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't think he can store fast enough to overpower a Bondsmith's abilities. And if the bondsmith simply cuts his connection to his metalminds, he can't even try to. Yes, a duraluminum compounder can mitigate the effects of a Bondsmith's abilities somewhat, but beat one? We're talking a Nightblood vs Odium situation here. You only win if you catch them by surprise, under a very specific set of circumstances.

Fro what weve seen Feruchemists can store very fast. Basicly they think and they store. Feruchemy is probably the most instinctive magic in Cosmere. Feruchemist can have many metalminds, as well as pieces of metal ready to be metalminds.

16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

We have no reason to believe that Ishar used a Dawnshard to catch Ashyn on fire forever.

Dawnshards were desribed as "ancient weapons used to destroy Tranquiline Halls". Preaty straightforward to me.

Bindpoints? We need to know only one - heart. And stealing Bond automaticaly ended your aboility to Bondsmithing AND increased healing. Bondsmith dont have Shards, so...

Edited February 19, 2022 by Bzhydack

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Dawnshards were desribed as "ancient weapons used to destroy Tranquiline Halls". Preaty straightforward to me.

But we don't know that you need a Dawnshard to destroy the planet. Ishar might have been far weaker of a Bondsmith on Ashyn.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

Just now, Nameless said:

Ishar might have been far weaker of a Bondsmith on Ashyn.

We have indications that it was exactly the opposite.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

We have indications that it was exactly the opposite.

From what?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

From what?

Honor restricted Surges after Ashyn was destroyed.

I have crazy Idea, but need to clarify...

[NameIess]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

Honor restricted Surges after Ashyn was destroyed.

 

But Honor's dead, so Ishar isn't restricted anymore, and neither is Dalinar.

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

I have crazy Idea, but need to clarify...

Clarify what?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But Honor's dead, so Ishar isn't restricted anymore, and neither is Dalinar.

Exactly. So Ishar was on Ashyn as Strong (or maybe even stronger) as he is now. Not weaker.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Clarify what?

Wait few days. I have idea about previous Ashynite Magic System.

[NameIess]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

Exactly. So Ishar was on Ashyn as Strong (or maybe even stronger) as he is now. Not weaker.

He was unbound. Doesn't mean that he didn't require a Dawnshard to command his full power. Maybe Dalinar+Stormfather has a better control over his power than Ishar+blank power.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Maybe Dalinar+Stormfather has a better control over his power than Ishar+blank power.

We dont have any possibility to know that, we can only guess.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

Did we see any indication that Bondsmiths can manipulate Connection at a distance? Because if not, they just have the power of an atomic bomb at a range of a cocktail straw.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

Even causing atomic bonds to disassemble can release massive amounts energy, probably on the level of a C4 explosion(18% more powerful than dynamite) multiplied by the number of bonds you're breaking

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, if you cant store all your Atribute, how you can make Identity-less metalminds? To make them, you NEED TO store ALL Identity.

Books before Wobs, Frustration.

Aluminum is already weird, I don't think it should be used as a counter example.

5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Cohesion cant explode stuff, is manipulation on the level of atoms, not subatomic. But this could work maybe with Elsecaller or Lightweaver. But still, this has to be surprise attack, if Fullborn would be able to shild himself with speedbubble he would be able to run and heal.

It probably could.

Quote

"This ability manipulates the Surge of Cohesion, and is in many ways the cousin to the axial manipulation known as microkinesis-as both grant the ability to manipulate the forces that bind individual axi together. Fortunately, in my explorations, it appears that Stoneshaping is far less . . . explosive of a power, bounded by the rules that Honor placed upon it to protect from the mistakes that happened on Yolen." -RoW page 1229 Khriss discussing Stoneshaping. 

Now while possible that this particular rule is still in place, with every other rule falling away I have to doubt it.

Background on Microkinesis

Spoiler

ccstat

There IS historical precedent of accidentally setting off fission reactions in the cosmere using the magic

Now this is a story I look forward to hearing :-)

Brandon Sanderson

One of the first magic systems I designed for the cosmere was based on the manipulation of sub-atomic particles, and involved the ability to look directly at atoms and interact with them. I decided to back off on this, as it was a whopper of a magic system to get right with my limited (at the time) writing experience. It was fun, though, and is still a canonical Cosmere magic.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 19, 2016)

Questioner

Have you ever considered the energy density of Stormlight compared to real world substances? Example: nuclear fuels. Is it kind of on that level?

Brandon Sanderson

I have a little group of cosmerenauts, fans of the books that I’ve known for the long time who are themselves physicists. And I have asked them to start helping me quantify these things. Right now, I don’t have them exactly quantified. The place we’re starting with is: which forms of Investiture in the cosmere, how much fantastical-unit-of-energy do they have, and how does that relate to a real-world joule, or something like that. And that’s something we’re in the process of doing, because we’ll need it by space age cosmere. But I’ve told them they have years to figure it out.

The nice thing is, in our world, we have conservation of energy. I’ve talked about this in the cosmere: because we can go from energy to matter to Investiture (and any of the three can transfer between), we can pop energy out in interesting ways to fuel things if we need to. We can draw directly from the Spiritual Realm, or you can have some of this matter transferred into energy through becoming Investiture first, in a way that’s a little less explosive than normally getting energy out of matter is, in our world.

That said, the magic system of Dragonsteel (which I wrote long ago, which is not released), one of the primary magic systems of that was actual nuclear physics. And nuclear fission was part of the magic system, being able to see the atoms and manipulate them. I don’t know if I’ll ever do that in actual cosmere, but it was one of the cosmere magics originally. So when you read Dragonsteel (we’ll probably release it sometime around the Words of Radiance leatherbound Kickstarter, would be my guess), you can read about people seeing… in cosmere terms, they’re called “axi.” Or “an axon,” rather than atoms. You can see people playing with that. And I even think there are rumors in the books of people playing with those to the point that they make enormous explosions that cause wastelands. Because you do something a little wrong, and suddenly you’re splitting some atoms, and that can be very bad. That can have ramifications.

Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020)

 

[Wandering Shade]

On 2/19/2022 at 3:06 PM, Bzhydack said:

When Marasi taped Bands, she literaly started glowing and emit Mists - waht is basicly equivalent of semi-opened Perpendicularity.

That sounds more like any Radiant holding Stormlight to me. Too much magic in too flawed a container.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Wandering Shade