Anniversary Game 8 / AN11: Back to Beginnings

[Coral Swan]

1 minute ago, Emerald Falcon said:

Is this raising Onyx in your Elim reads for anyone else? Objectively Elims are better mediators because they don't have as large of an emotional attachment on the game as Villagers. it's a general thing that can definitely vary, but it's the whole reason Elims will ever feel the need to AtE, because Villagers naturally do.

No. It's not.

Praise the Ja!

[Pearl Chameleon]

2 minutes ago, Emerald Falcon said:

Is this raising Onyx in your Elim reads for anyone else? Objectively Elims are better mediators because they don't have as large of an emotional attachment on the game as Villagers. it's a general thing that can definitely vary, but it's the whole reason Elims will ever feel the need to AtE, because Villagers naturally do.

dude????

i don’t even know what you’re going on about here lol

[Emerald Falcon]

Just now, Coral Swan said:

No. It's not.

not going to respond to my earlier post?

eh. I'll be back during the night cycle. someone ping me if they care for me to respond to anything.

Sitting around waiting for Hyena's flip only benefits the Elims regardless but at this point I'm not going to put effort into something people will only want to condemn me for if they interact with it at all.

[Salmon Meerkat]

Just going to put this out here. To me, the material facts remain the push for the Iguana mislynch over Gorilla, and the push for what would have been a Flamingo mislynch (or so we now have reason to believe) once again saving Gorilla. 

I'm not interested in being told there are four lights. In any other SE game with any other player this would be a perfectly normal and even solid reason to base a lynch on and I challenge any one of you to show me otherwise.

In LG79, E Heron fought the lynch to the last giving us all sorts of stories to justify bad votes. I'm only interested in the material facts and the material facts and the aggressiveness of the defense are both highly indicative we need a flip. 

I think the tacit suggestion we need 100% certainty is pretty damned disingenuous and I'm not sure why we are allowing it to take root. Should we not have lynched Gorilla then? Hyena went out to the hilt telling us he had a possible account of Gorilla's TMI. If we are required to have a case for the lynch that removes all possibilities except that of being Evil, we will never have a lynch at all, because even Seeker scans can be falsified. The player can be lying. 

I'd rather focus on the fact that this connection to Gorilla is strong enough that in any other SE game, in any other cycle, we would be considering this valid grounds for a lynch. 

In. Any. Other. Game. 

In. Any. Other. Cycle. 

I'm not interested in buying lovely stories. A player can say whatever they want and make it sound plausible with a silver tongue. But material facts concerning a player's actions shows where their strategic interests lie—do they lie with the Village? Or with the Spiked. 

I further point out that if you think he was Lurched by an Evil Lurcher as a distraction, we need to know that too. The lynch is also supposed to be informative. This tells us concrete things about how the Elims behaved on D2 when Iguana was endangered and on D3 when Gorilla was in danger. This also tells us about the Elim team's strategy. 

I'm side-eying those who happily jumped on the Gorilla train and the Mauve train and any SE train that was never a hundred percent certain, which let's be clear, is any train ever, and insisting that something is wrong.

Lack of full and utter apodictic certainty didn't stop you then. Why is it stopping you now? The material facts point to a connection, are indicative, and informative. 

This is a necessary lynch. 

[Coral Swan]

8 minutes ago, Emerald Falcon said:

not going to respond to my earlier post?

There's nothing to respond to. You told me I shouldn't have posted what I did because I know who you are, and yet I did post that, so  The other part of that post was a statement, not a question, that didn't need a response.

Praise the Ja!

Edit: Also I find it interesting that not a single counter-proposal has been put forth. People have mentioned that they don't like the exe, or the reasons it should be abandoned, but no one, not even Hyena, has proposed who, if not Hyena, is elim.

Praise the Ja!

Edited January 13, 2022 by Coral Swan

[Emerald Falcon]

7 minutes ago, Coral Swan said:

Edit: Also I find it interesting that not a single counter-proposal has been put forth. People have mentioned that they don't like the exe, or the reasons it should be abandoned, but no one, not even Hyena, has proposed who, if not Hyena, is elim.

Who here said that it shouldn't go through other than Hyena himself?

Hyena dying needs to happen, but that doesn't mean we should completely focus on a world where Hyena is Evil when theorizing.

[Oxblood Beagle]

7 minutes ago, Emerald Falcon said:

Hyena dying needs to happen, but that doesn't mean we should completely focus on a world where Hyena is Evil when theorizing.

I'm not sure where this makes sense. The most logical way to step forward is to assume the person we have material evidence against, as well as a desire to execute, is in fact elim. From there, we can use this time to explore avenues of possible connections in order to give us a head start for next turn.

It's pretty clear that this exe is going to go unopposed. Everyone (excluding Hyena, of course) seems to understand that whether Village or Elim, this is the best course right now.

Please, if you have counter evidence or evidence which can implicate someone else more strongly, present it. If, on the highly unlikely chance that Hyena is Village, we'd all agree that evidence of someone else's guilt would be helpful here.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Oxblood Beagle
autocorrect

[Emerald Falcon]

Tbh I call it respect

just because whenever I've been about to die and people know they have to kill me and think I'll flip elim? I'm always a villager there, and the people always try and work with me for that last day i have just in case.

Because trying to block someone out of the conversation because you think they're an Elim based on things that shouldn't even exist to you if the supposed rioter did in fact claim to you shouldn't be happening because if you took any look at any posts that person made it would be blatant that they're village

Edited January 13, 2022 by Emerald Falcon

[Charcoal Hyena]

1 hour ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

Just going to put this out here. To me, the material facts remain the push for the Iguana mislynch over Gorilla, and the push for what would have been a Flamingo mislynch (or so we now have reason to believe) once again saving Gorilla. 

I'm not interested in being told there are four lights. In any other SE game with any other player this would be a perfectly normal and even solid reason to base a lynch on and I challenge any one of you to show me otherwise.

In LG79, E Heron fought the lynch to the last giving us all sorts of stories to justify bad votes. I'm only interested in the material facts and the material facts and the aggressiveness of the defense are both highly indicative we need a flip. 

I think the tacit suggestion we need 100% certainty is pretty damned disingenuous and I'm not sure why we are allowing it to take root. Should we not have lynched Gorilla then? Hyena went out to the hilt telling us he had a possible account of Gorilla's TMI. If we are required to have a case for the lynch that removes all possibilities except that of being Evil, we will never have a lynch at all, because even Seeker scans can be falsified. The player can be lying. 

I'd rather focus on the fact that this connection to Gorilla is strong enough that in any other SE game, in any other cycle, we would be considering this valid grounds for a lynch. 

In. Any. Other. Game. 

In. Any. Other. Cycle. 

I'm not interested in buying lovely stories. A player can say whatever they want and make it sound plausible with a silver tongue. But material facts concerning a player's actions shows where their strategic interests lie—do they lie with the Village? Or with the Spiked. 

I further point out that if you think he was Lurched by an Evil Lurcher as a distraction, we need to know that too. The lynch is also supposed to be informative. This tells us concrete things about how the Elims behaved on D2 when Iguana was endangered and on D3 when Gorilla was in danger. This also tells us about the Elim team's strategy. 

I'm side-eying those who happily jumped on the Gorilla train and the Mauve train and any SE train that was never a hundred percent certain, which let's be clear, is any train ever, and insisting that something is wrong.

Lack of full and utter apodictic certainty didn't stop you then. Why is it stopping you now? The material facts point to a connection, are indicative, and informative. 

This is a necessary lynch. 

I genuinely agree with this post more than anything else you or Amber have said against me. Executing me is perfectly valid for this reason. Executing me for the arguments presented last night is not. I can accept pragmaticism, but I can not accept the illogic from last night on sheer principle alone, and will show everyone the flaws shortly. The last and only thing I care about is showing you specifically why I've reacted the way I have.

Charcoal Hyena.

I was literally one sentence from posting it, for the record. I lost two hours of work to an internet interruption. Was extremely discouraged, about to quit entirely, but I made a promise to myself not to give up, so I'm going to try again. Once I've said my peace, I will do what I can to lead the village in the right direction after my flip.

I see now how I only played into the elims hands by reacting the way I did today. Any further discussion about me from anyone else only prolongs this unnecessary distraction, and I'd like it to end now.

1 hour ago, Coral Swan said:

There's nothing to respond to. You told me I shouldn't have posted what I did because I know who you are, and yet I did post that, so  The other part of that post was a statement, not a question, that didn't need a response.

Praise the Ja!

Edit: Also I find it interesting that not a single counter-proposal has been put forth. People have mentioned that they don't like the exe, or the reasons it should be abandoned, but no one, not even Hyena, has proposed who, if not Hyena, is elim.

Praise the Ja!

I will. I'm sorry it's taking so long. Last night tilted me more than I could have possibly anticipated. Once I'm done, I hope we can move forward.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Charcoal Hyena

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

Alright. I am no longer a mod, and Wilson is busy and El your GM is flying (presumably on Vingilotë) so it’s fallen to my limited authority as your co-GM to straighten out a few things. But Rust and Ruin, you guys are going at this way too hard for my taste (and the taste of several players who have been PMing us concerned about all this), so for the love of Preservation (or Ruin I guess if you’re Spiked) please just remember a few things. 

First, while you should all be familiar with them, it would not hurt a good number of you to take a refreshing look at the player conduct rules for how you should be interacting with your fellow SEers. A few points in particular: 

• Your forum or real-life relationships with other players should not cause you to play against your team's win condition, and should not be used to attempt to influence another person to play against their win condition.
• Be respectful and aware of how the other team might take your comments during and after the game. If you’re about to say something you wouldn’t want to hear if you were in their position, don’t say it. Be the kind of player you’d want to continue playing with or against in the future.
• The entire section entitled “how to approach arguments” like seriously please reread all of it >>

Second. This is a personal plea. Y’all please remember, as @Onyx Flamingo has delightfully put it, that this is a game. Yes, it is a game into which many of you have invested a significant amount of mental and emotional resources, but it remains something which exists for your enjoyment. If you are concerned with victory to the point where you have stopped having fun, or are beginning to create an environment in thread or in PMs which is causing others not to have fun, you need to back off. Disengage, take a break for a few hours and come back when you are in a calmer state of mind and aren’t raising the temperature and sniping at each other. It’s better for your own enjoyment and that of everyone else’s. Your faction will survive your absence in the meantime, I promise.  We play these games for the interactions with others and while conflict is expected, it doesn’t need to boil over into personal attacks and sniping which just makes both parties more entrenched and hostile towards each other. Please engage in good faith.

Third, regarding emotional manipulation, of which I have received several complaints. As a GM I am not here to regulate how much emotion people do or do not express in thread; some people are very straight-laced and others very open with themselves. I do not expect people to remove all emotion from their posts, nor do I expect them to very clearly demonstrate how they’re feeling at all times to avoid confusion. I do expect that those of you showing emotions, when you choose to do so, are doing so genuinely and not as the crux of an argument or a guilt-trip against another player’s emotional weaknesses or trigger points (especially if you are making them feel inadequate intentionally), and I expect those of you not showing emotions to have enough sense with your tone-over-text that the other person doesn’t think they’re talking to a faceless machine who has no regard for what they’re saying and won’t ever listen. Again: engage in good faith, and if you can’t or won’t or don’t have the energy, take a break and come back. 

Fourth: passive-aggressiveness is no fun for anyone and contributes to everything I’ve just said above. Please just don’t do it. If you have concerns about it flaring up, or think arguments are getting too heated, please talk with whomever is inciting the language and try to sort it. Person-to-person is the best bet and normally most of this stuff is unintentional or the results of emotions running high. If something is festering or doesn’t seem right, you can always take it to us or your IM, the Cursor of Doom (@little wilson), and we’ll look to de-escalate or put you guys in a group therapy doc or something.  

Thank you for making it to the end of this screed. I don’t like yelling at you guys and want you to enjoy this AG so please don’t make me do this again, y’all all know and love each other, just remember it  

[Charcoal Hyena]

4 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Alright. I am no longer a mod, and Wilson is busy and El your GM is flying (presumably on Vingilotë) so it’s fallen to my limited authority as your co-GM to straighten out a few things. But Rust and Ruin, you guys are going at this way too hard for my taste (and the taste of several players who have been PMing us concerned about all this), so for the love of Preservation (or Ruin I guess if you’re Spiked) please just remember a few things. 

First, while you should all be familiar with them, it would not hurt a good number of you to take a refreshing look at the player conduct rules for how you should be interacting with your fellow SEers. A few points in particular: 

• Your forum or real-life relationships with other players should not cause you to play against your team's win condition, and should not be used to attempt to influence another person to play against their win condition.
• Be respectful and aware of how the other team might take your comments during and after the game. If you’re about to say something you wouldn’t want to hear if you were in their position, don’t say it. Be the kind of player you’d want to continue playing with or against in the future.
• The entire section entitled “how to approach arguments” like seriously please reread all of it >>

Second. This is a personal plea. Y’all please remember, as @Onyx Flamingo has delightfully put it, that this is a game. Yes, it is a game into which many of you have invested a significant amount of mental and emotional resources, but it remains something which exists for your enjoyment. If you are concerned with victory to the point where you have stopped having fun, or are beginning to create an environment in thread or in PMs which is causing others not to have fun, you need to back off. Disengage, take a break for a few hours and come back when you are in a calmer state of mind and aren’t raising the temperature and sniping at each other. It’s better for your own enjoyment and that of everyone else’s. Your faction will survive your absence in the meantime, I promise.  We play these games for the interactions with others and while conflict is expected, it doesn’t need to boil over into personal attacks and sniping which just makes both parties more entrenched and hostile towards each other. Please engage in good faith.

Third, regarding emotional manipulation, of which I have received several complaints. As a GM I am not here to regulate how much emotion people do or do not express in thread; some people are very straight-laced and others very open with themselves. I do not expect people to remove all emotion from their posts, nor do I expect them to very clearly demonstrate how they’re feeling at all times to avoid confusion. I do expect that those of you showing emotions, when you choose to do so, are doing so genuinely and not as the crux of an argument or a guilt-trip against another player’s emotional weaknesses or trigger points (especially if you are making them feel inadequate intentionally), and I expect those of you not showing emotions to have enough sense with your tone-over-text that the other person doesn’t think they’re talking to a faceless machine who has no regard for what they’re saying and won’t ever listen. Again: engage in good faith, and if you can’t or won’t or don’t have the energy, take a break and come back. 

Fourth: passive-aggressiveness is no fun for anyone and contributes to everything I’ve just said above. Please just don’t do it. If you have concerns about it flaring up, or think arguments are getting too heated, please talk with whomever is inciting the language and try to sort it. Person-to-person is the best bet and normally most of this stuff is unintentional or the results of emotions running high. If something is festering or doesn’t seem right, you can always take it to us or your IM, the Cursor of Doom (@little wilson), and we’ll look to de-escalate or put you guys in a group therapy doc or something.  

Thank you for making it to the end of this screed. I don’t like yelling at you guys and want you to enjoy this AG so please don’t make me do this again, y’all all know and love each other, just remember it  

I am sorry for my part in this. Not as a player, but as a person. I hope everyone knows it.

And thank you.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Charcoal Hyena

[Coral Swan]

Just now, Charcoal Hyena said:

I am sorry for my part in this. Not as a player, but as a person. I hope everyone knows it.

And thank you.

^^^

Praise the Ja!

[Onyx Flamingo]

Thank you fifth <3

[Pearl Chameleon]

Thank you, Fifth, for that very insightful reminder. It is always good to be reminded that, regardless of alignment, regardless of how you feel the game is going for you, it really is just a game in the end. It is not all about winning, even if we should all strive for that.

In other news, I would request that everyone actually take the time to, if not reread the thread, at least make a reads list based on the information we have now. I think we are all in agreement, for the most part, that Hyena is going to flip Spiked. Assuming there are no more unseen curveballs coming our way, of course. I can understand a reluctance to do anything except think or talk about Hyena, but that exe has been decided. It is in our best interests to talk about other things and other players now while we can. Discussion is the village’s greatest tool against the Spiked.

[Violet Axolotl]

D1:

Spoiler

Mauve Crocodile (4): Emerald Falcon, Fuchsia Ostrich, Onyx Flamingo, Saffron Iguana
Saffron Iguana (3): Magenta Albatross, Mauve Crocodile, Pearl Chameleon, Turquoise Gorilla
Turquoise Gorilla (3): Amethyst Scorpion, Coral Swan, Scarlet Octopus, Violet Axolotl
Charcoal Hyena (2): Chartreuse Penguin, Salmon Meerkat
Amethyst Scorpion (1): Charcoal Hyena
Coral Swan (1): Oxblood Beagle
Violet Axolotl (1): Mint Heron

No Vote: (9): Amber Vulture, Azure Mouse, Ivory Dragonfly, Melon Dingo, Opal Lion, Plum Rhinoceros, Quartz Zebra, Sapphire Elephant, Sunburst Toucan

Okay, so there are only 4 flips we have here. Hyena's alignment shouldn't change too much how we analyze this cycle, I think. It's reasonable for one of Falcon/Ostrich/Flamingo to be elim. There's a decent case to go after Falcon in the event of a e!Hyena flip, but that should be talked out more. Seems a bit odd that only 2 elims would be on the main trains given 5-7, and one of them up to die. So maybe 2 elims in Falcon/Ostrich/Flamingo/Albatross/Chameleon. Albatross gets special mention for a fairly late vote switch onto Iguana as well.

As has been mentioned, the last minute vote switch from Scorp looks pretty good. However, assuming elim vote manip, this is still a pretty safe situation for them, due to the tie being 3 ways, so we can't discount this being a bus for village credit.

It's also worth looking at the folks on the side trains here. Having an elim up to die makes it harder to switch votes without giving the village info. Assuming e!Hyena, that means Beagle and Heron are also worth looking at.

D2:

Spoiler

Saffron Iguana (5): Azure Mouse, Charcoal Hyena, Emerald Falcon, Onyx Flamingo, Pearl Chameleon, Salmon Meerkat
Scarlet Octopus (4): Chartreuse Penguin, Coral Swan, Oxblood Beagle, Saffron Iguana
Onyx Flamingo (2): Fuchsia Ostrich, Mint Heron
Amethyst Scorpion (1): Turquoise Gorilla
Magenta Albatross (1): Amber Vulture
Pearl Chameleon (1): Violet Axolotl
Turquoise Gorilla (1): Amethyst Scorpion

No Vote: (8): Ivory Dragonfly, Magenta Albatross, Melon Dingo, Opal Lion, Plum Rhinoceros, Quartz Zebra, Sapphire Elephant, Sunburst Toucan

Being a v/v train, we have to guess what the elims are up to here. I had already pushed the idea that D1 was v/v/v. So in theory (with e!Hyena and maybe Falcon) the elims are voting out Iguana, then push the v/v/v and idk where they go from there. Not sure if we've accounted for the vote manip, but it seems odd that elims would be using it right here. From D1, we have Hyena, Beagle, Penguin, and Meerkat all voting for a main train instead of a side train. Heron is on a side train for a second time. Not a great look for Heron in my opinion.

The list of non-voters is almost the exact same as it was D1, minus Vulture and plus Albatross. Not good, guys

D3:

Spoiler

First thing, Toucan got filtered and Dragonfly swapped. Octo got double-killed.

Turquoise Gorilla (9): Amethyst Scorpion, Coral Swan, Emerald Falcon, Fuchsia Ostrich, Magenta Albatross, Onyx Flamingo, Quartz Zebra, Salmon Meerkat
Emerald Falcon (2): Amber Vulture, Oxblood Beagle, Pearl Chameleon, Plum Rhinoceros
Fuchsia Ostrich (1): Mint Heron
Oxblood Beagle (1): Chartreuse Penguin
Pearl Chameleon (1): Violet Axolotl
Quartz Zebra (1): Charcoal Hyena

No Vote (5): Azure Mouse, Ivory Dragonfly, Melon Dingo, Sapphire Elephant, Turquoise Gorilla

Going to give credit to Swan here for being the first to mention Gorilla. Flamingo looks good for similar reasons. Falcon doesn't look great, unless Beagle is elim. I'm a little confused with Heron's response, but voting alongside Gorilla initially isn't great.

Hyena mentions he thinks an elim is in Flamingo, Zebra, or Ostrich. 

 

Okay, so @Ivory Dragonfly, @Melon Dingo, and @Sapphire Elephant all have yet to have a vote at end of cycle this game. We need to get something from you all. And we probably won't kill you for it. Also, @Azure Mouse and @Plum Rhinoceros have only voted once. Any suspicions/trusts that you think are worth sharing? If not, feel free to shoot me a PM and we can bounce ideas off each other before we let the thread tear them to pieces .

I'm also blasted confused about the whole vote manip thing D1, so I figure I'll go ahead and say that on D1 I Rioted Pearl's vote onto Gorilla (cancelling my own vote there). Haven't done anything with my role since.

Consolidated reads:

Spoiler

2. Amethyst Scorpion - Sidor, newly resigned Hazekiller (Guardsman)
3. Azure Mouse
4. Charcoal Hyena
5. Chartreuse Penguin - Aethex (Jester)
6. Coral Swan - Su (Jaist)
7. Emerald Falcon
8. Fuchsia Ostrich - Freddie (Glutton)
9. Ivory Dragonfly (Unlucky) (Replaced)
10. Magenta Albatross (Past Lives)
12. Melon Dingo - Scimon Tlag (Merchant)
13. Mint Heron - Tivend Elons (Casanova)
14. Onyx Flamingo (Gossip/Casanova)
16. Oxblood Beagle
17. Pearl Chameleon (Secret  )
18. Plum Rhinoceros (Prophet-ish)
19. Quartz Zebra (Drunk/Jaist)
21. Salmon Meerkat - Kellehrt, local farmer and possible madman
22. Sapphire Elephant

Purple is inactive, italics are conditional on Hyena's flip. There's too much red there, and not all of these are equally strong, but that's 

 

[Emerald Falcon]

Whatever Hyena's alignment, I believe his frustration to be genuine

He's being killed right now on something that started with a suspicion of me, not him. If he's village that's aggravating because he knows I'm village, and if he's a wolf then he's being found because people think a villager is suspicious, not even himself. 

Also I'm imploring you guys who think I'm a wolf upon a red flip to see reason about him pocketing me. His red flip doesn't secure mine. 

EDIT: @Violet Axolotl

If you claim to have rooted a Saffron voter, where did Saffron's soothe go

Edited January 13, 2022 by Emerald Falcon

[Violet Axolotl]

23 minutes ago, Emerald Falcon said:

EDIT: @Violet Axolotl

If you claim to have rooted a Saffron voter, where did Saffron's soothe go

It could have hit a smoker or something.

[Coral Swan]

41 minutes ago, Emerald Falcon said:

Whatever Hyena's alignment, I believe his frustration to be genuine

He's being killed right now on something that started with a suspicion of me, not him. If he's village that's aggravating because he knows I'm village, and if he's a wolf then he's being found because people think a villager is suspicious, not even himself. 

Also I'm imploring you guys who think I'm a wolf upon a red flip to see reason about him pocketing me. His red flip doesn't secure mine. 

I don’t think he’s being killed because of suspicion on you, he’s being killed for suspicion on him and the suspicion on you backs it up. It’s the same principle as the survival, the reasons came first. (In this case sooner after than the survival, though.) But their reads lists, voting record, and defense of Gorilla are all independent of you.

And I do plan to, but know that you’re not only being suspected because of Hyena. You should already know that since your previous paragraph was all about suspecting Hyena because of the reads on you, and both can’t be true. They’re inverse statements.

Praise the Ja!

Edited January 14, 2022 by Coral Swan

[Amethyst Scorpion]

13 minutes ago, Violet Axolotl said:

It could have hit a smoker or something.

Saffron said they soothed Pearl, which would have ended up cancelling both your and Pearl's votes and meaning there was no other visible vote manipulation that turn.

[Emerald Falcon]

Lol

That means if Violet is village like I think they are

That there was no elim vote manip involved in saving Gorilla

It was an attempt to kill Gorilla that backfired

[Salmon Meerkat]

Sitting on a bunch of role and action claims that need to be properly anonymised & shared with the thread so everyone is not ootl and everyone knows what is going on. Probably not roleclaims, need to find a way to satisfactorily anonymise action claims but should be done, don't want another AG7.

Just too tired to figure that out now so it's a later problem, but D1 claim doesn't cause additional problems with what is known.

[Charcoal Hyena]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

I've never played against you before. Nothing I'm saying is based in player reputation. I'm sorry you left SE. That's not my fault.

I'm sorry if I made you think I was blaming you. That was less of a challenge to you, and more an expression of my feelings that began with this entire debacle last night. Also was an attempt to help you understand the context for my reaction. The reality is my reputation follows me, no matter what I do, consciously or subconsciously, for players who know me, and in turn they affect the opinions of people who don't.

(OOG response start, do not analyze for purposes of game, simply need to get this off my chest, not sure if it's appropriate to blue text:

Regardless of my alignment now, I often feel like as a Villager, I'm rarely allowed to survive long unless I find an elim quickly and secure village protection, since elims want me dead for my ability to direct others and solve late game; it leaves me very little room to make real mistakes before people start worrying I'm deceiving them. As an eliminator, it similarly impacts my ability to perform for my team because unless I bus a teammate early on, the same worries surface and make it extremely difficult to convince people who know me of anything because they come back with things like "You're a diverse enough player to bus one day and stalwartly defend another elim the next."

I've convinced a lot of very good players that I was village when I wasn't and betrayed them in the end. I've collected information, saved it for a rainy day, and pulled off insane gambits like the time I got 4(5?) villagers killed in a single night because I convinced them all to use actions on me like protection when I had a secret role that kills anyone who targets on me every 3rd night of the game. I've openly claimed to be an Eliminator Coinshot (Cook in that particular game) out of pity and struck a deal with the villagers to only use my kills on inactive players, and actually convinced them into letting me live until we achieved parity.

Perhaps it's time I accept this instead of fighting it. The reason I've left so many times is because I feel these scenarios are unfair, no matter what alignment I get. Perhaps what I should do instead is focus on the reason I keep coming back. I heckin love this community and everyone in it, both old and new. For many of the hardest years in my life, it was a haven where I was allowed to forget about my real life and have fun with people who love Sanderson, solving puzzles, and engaging in debates as much as me. One of my proudest accomplishments in my entire life is being chosen to participate in the Mafia Universe Championships and representing this place with honor. This place has a very special place in my heart, and as such, it hurts me when I don't feel I'm given a fair chance to play like anyone else because of much larger threshold I need to reach in order to gain trust and impact these games in a meaningful way. It was a home to me when I felt I had none for a very long time - a place where I had friends when I felt I had no one in my life and desperately needed them - and profound enough that just being a part of it saved my life on multiple occassions, simply by giving me something to constantly look forward to every time a new game started.

These days, I am experiencing difficulities IRL that are significantly worse than what I previously believed was the lowest point of my life. I decided to join this game in an attempt to experience that all again because I was desperate. If today has taught me anything, it's how irresponsible I was to put that much pressure on a game that's meant to be fun, whether or not I actively made that choice or just stumbled into it. It's taught me that I put way too pressure on myself to do well and be perfect. My worth as a human being is not intrinsically tied to winning like my brain tends to insist. It's tied to the connections we forge together, the lasting bonds we form across the world, and I realize now that should have always kept that in the forefront of my mind when participating here and writing my posts. Had I done that, maybe things wouldn't have escalated so quickly for so many people. I never meant any harm to anyone in my life, most especially my friends; past, present, and future. And so now I put this into words for not just myself, but everyone here that's been affected in the last 24 hours. For everyone who has ever struggled like I am; past, present, and future.

I am not alone. We are not alone.

end of non-blue-text OOG)

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

And no one else does. Anyone can say anything, village or elim.

You're right. Anyone can say anything, village or elim. Words alone are but wind. Actions speak louder than words. And so I take the most important step a person can take. The next one.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

Yeah, I did. I refuted all your points and made arguments but also accepted that I might die. What I've seen from you is essentially "you're wrong, you're all wrong and your arguments are bad. I'm a villager." And a whole lot of appealing to our emotions. That isn't an argument, it's manipulation.

Again, you're right. I messed up by not defending against the points I disagree with before responding to people. That had been my intention from the beginning, but as I read the posts on Page 1, many thoughts and feelings surfaced that I wanted to express, and in doing so, I failed to consider what the natural result would be. People voted for me for a reason, whether or not I agree with the reasons, and without challenging those reasons, everything I say can be read as manipulation.

(Once again, OOG statement that should not be considered for this game, emotional manipulation was not intentional behind any of my posts. I am just a very emotional person; I cry during every movie, show, and book if it has any kind of presented emotion, good or bad, and have even been teary eyed while rewriting this post. Always have been, though it's likely more prominent now since I'm currently going through a lot. Both Amber and Salmon know about the problems in my life, so there was a degree of me taking Salmon's complete shutting me out as a personal affront, even while I logically was aware there was nothing personal about it. It put me on a tilt that I have now, fortunately, broken out of with the help of Fifth and several other players behind the scenes. Furthermore, I am a writer through and through. It's been my dream to be a fantasy author for 15 years, when I was only 13 years old. It is a passion I have decided to pursue with all my heart and soul in the last few years, and as such, it bleeds into how I write these posts. If they feel to be deliberately crafted to appeal to emotion, that's a reflection of who I am and my approach to writing. I adore character driven stories, and emotion driven characters. In a way, my game related posts are my version of RP where my alignment is my character and winning is my character's motivation. That's why they read like speeches, which as you can probably see, I'm overly fond of. I understand now that I've taken that RP too seriously to a fault. I take responsibility for the fallout.)

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

"Except for gorilla's" that's why we're after you lol. Like, legit. You made a bunch of bad votes including defending an elim. We aren't the same, friend. There's a big difference here, that being I voted to exe an elim and you didn't.

Now back to the actual game stuff. "You made a bunch of bad votes." This is one argument against me that I would like to challenge, for my sake and for every single player that is put in a similar position, whether village or elim.

1. D1 I voted Amethyst Scorpion for firm language regarding the spiked being weak. It was before the Turquoise exe picked up any steam, and I wasn't there when it did. Right now, Amethyst's alignment is currently unknown. Until they flip, you cannot objectively say that was a bad vote.
2. D2 I voted Saffron Iguana for reasons I actually believed in. You believed in those reasons too; enough to say it when you added your vote. Others voted them too, and it's very likely there are villagers like you who did so. For that reason, I don't consider that a bad vote.
3. D3 I voted Quartz Zebra fully aware that no one would join it. I did not push for their death, but instead parked my vote somewhere I was comfortable. Likewise, I did not push your exe as hard as I could have; certainly not as hard as Salmon has implied. You were the only person that I interacted with at that time, and that interaction + Salmon's own read of you was enough to convince me into backing off. Much like Amethyst, Quartz's alignment is still unknown. Did I fail to vote a Spiked? Yes. Is this the worst of my votes for that reason? Also yes. Is it a bad vote? Perhaps. The question I propose is this:

If either Amethyst Scorpion or Quartz Zebra were dead and revealed to be an elim too, would your opinion of my votes change? Surely they would be "good" votes then, right? I wholeheartedly believe that unless you know something about those two slots that the rest of us don't, it's disengenious to call these bad votes. Such language paints me in a worse light than I deserve when multiple others voted outside of Turquoise. Most especially the votes on Emerald, the only real counterwagon, who's alignment is still unknown to everyone here. Even though people suspect Turq and Em are teammates, suspicion is by no means confirmation, and much of Amber + Salmon's case against me is built upon the foundation of that belief. It's that belief that I have so many problems with, and that I have intended to challenge this entire time. So here we go.

Quote

Amber Vulture

The other option is that the rioter was smoked, and moved a vote from Emerald Falcon onto Turquoise Gorilla. I cannot see a world in which a village rioter coordinated with a village smoker on D1, and frankly think it highly unlikely that that would be happening on D3 as well (and if it happened on D3 but not D1, we are dealing with two different rioters, both hiding the vote removal through different means - I think highly unlikely on balance). As such, I think we can conclude further that the rioter is an eliminator in this scenario as well. 

However, I think the smoked rioter can (in theory) be any player other than Salmon Meerkat (confirmed tineye), Magenta Albatross (assuming they are a thug), and Plum Rhinoceros, whose vote was moved.

The question becomes why would an eliminator rioter want to move a vote from Emerald Falcon to Turquoise Gorilla?

In a PM, to Salmon Meerkat, Charcoal Hyena claimed Emerald Falcon had been scanned as villager (a claim they make in a slightly more oblique way in thread), and Emerald Falcon confirmed in that PM that Charcoal Hyena had his role right - surely they would want to move a vote the other way, to increase the chance of lynching a supposedly cleared player?

This, I think, is strong evidence for my theory of elim!Falcon, and therefore elim!Hyena - Falcon flipping eliminator brings down Hyena as well, and therefore is a greater loss to their team.

1. Amber convinced himself that an eliminator rioter used their vote manipulation to bus Gorilla
2. Amber convinced himself this meant the elims actively wanted to preserve Emerald's life first, and therefore they too are elim
3. Amber convinced himself that because Emerald must be an elim, I'm lying about my scan of a teammate, and thus an elim too

This is the root of my frustration; the aforementioned flawed logic. The main argument for me being evil is not just because Emerald is evil; it's because Emerald is evil because an elim!Rioter saved them over Turquoise. I am two steps removed from the situation, and yet somehow the crux of it. We now know that Amber was a villager, which means he did not have confirmation that any of the manipulations came from an elim. If anyone claimed to be responsible for this to either Amber or Salmon, they would need to be flipped in order to support this chain of events. Furthermore, he ignores the possibility that all vote manipulations that occurred that day are Village - that they all believed Turquoise was evil more than Emerald and acted accordingly - which in fact was the consensus, even before said manipulations, hence the 8 votes on them and 4 on Emerald. Furtherermore, if the elims actively used their vote manipulations to bus Turquoise in secret, then surely they would also have voted for Turquoise in order to earn village credit. Despite this, neither Salmon or him responded to my own post about that very subject; who the likely busers are. Even if we assume that Emerald was an elim too, this remains a possibility; especially if the elims wanted to make sure that Emerald or themselves did not die in the future. 

Instead of engaging with me in a discussion about public Turquoise busers, this is what Amber chose to focus on. Likewise, Fuschia and Salmon ignored the very good points I raised on this subject with the former insisting my defense of Turquoise could not have come from a Villager, which came before this argument was presented, instead interjecting when I challenged Fuschia on his inability to accept that I could be a Villager. At the time, I felt that I made a genuine effort to solve the game only for it to be discarded for theories that are comparably unproductive, due to all the unknowns and assumptions involved.

If you're voting for me because I didn't vote Turquoise, I can accept that. But if you're voting me because Amber, a now confirmed villager, built this unfounded narrative to justify Emerald and I are both an elim, then I cannot accept that. It's why I was so upset with Salmon; this very post was the turning point where he shut Emerald and I out. That suggests he came to the decision I'm an elim here, and not sooner. Even if he expressed his doubts or harbored them in secret - even if he had other reasons to worry that I'm an elim - this was the tipping point. Unfounded speculation about elim roles and how they're using them. A fairytale born from paranoia that both players are smart enough to see is not a guarantee for Emerald or my alignment.

Quote

Salmon Meerkat

P1. There are reasons to think with high confidence that Falcon is Evil.
P2. Hyena claimed to be a Mistborn who drew Bronze N1 and scanned Falcon as a Villager.
P3. Falcon confirmed that Hyena had scanned her role correctly.

Note, first, that the argument (P1) for whether Falcon is or is not Evil is separate from the Mistborn claim. We'll get to that in a bit. (Just see Vulture, it's late for me and I have more work rip.) But here's the thing: P2 and P3 indicate that only two possibilities happened. That is to say, for Falcon to confirm that Hyena scanned her role correctly and for Hyena to have scanned Falcon as a Villager can be true in only two possible worlds:

A. Falcon is scanned by Hyena. This says nothing about Hyena's alignment, and regards the Mistborn claim as being prima facie possible.
B. Falcon is not scanned by Hyena, because Falcon and Hyena are in cahoots.

B in particular implies and entails a Hyena-Falcon connection such that if P1 holds true (again, see separate argument), then Hyena is also Evil. 

Or to put it in another way: if you ostensibly claim to have scanned a player as a Villager, and if the player flips Evil, it's clear you are a liar, and Evil as well.

By asking why the Elims would have known this, you're begging the question against Vulture because you're already assuming the veracity of the scan. Yet the truthfulness of the scan is exactly what is under question here!

I felt that there were other circumstances surrounding the scan that didn't seem right:

• First, I felt that the claim tripped a number of red flags because it was the correct blend of specificity (see, I'm accountable! see, I'm not killing at night!) and involved an unprovable metal, because the escape hatch is simply that Hyena and Falcon are both Evil teammates. In other words, it seemed designed to project the idea that the players involved are trustworthy even when there was little reason to trust on the basis of the specific nature of the claim.
   
• Second, I felt that in particular, the Seeker claim is to be regarded always with prima facie caution, because in Tyrian Falls, Seekers are not Confirmed Good. There is an understandable psychological tendency to get carried away with the results of Seeker scans and forget to ask if you have reason to trust the alignment of the ostensible Seeker in the first place. It's a useful claim in these circumstances because it can exonerate teammates, allowing you to pass them off as Village, so long as the ostensible Seeker doesn't die. People fixate on the utility of Seekers, end up functionally relying on them, and forgetting that their alignment hasn't actually been checked yet.
   
• Third, I'm sorry to say, but one has many other helpful options if specifically Seeking 'active players' than Falcon. Going for Cham might have helped to resolve the C1 wagon problem. Coral Swan and Mauve Crocodile are two other players which certainly count as prima facie active. The specificity of picking Falcon is in itself somewhat skewed in plausibility - precisely because Falcon had an inactive C1 and only returned into the second half! Thus, the choice can also be suspected to have been gamed by alignment.

In general, I believe that combined with the case against Falcon (discouraging the Gorilla push both in thread and PMs, D1 Mauve crocodile voter, and the connection to Hyena who was deeply implicated and invested in two bad lynches, and defending an Elim who later got executed) - the simplest explanation is that both Falcon and Hyena are Evil together. This entails that the scan is false. The question is a misleading one.

P1. If there are reasons to think with high confidence that Emerald is evil, they are wrong.
P2. I did indeed scan them, and they are indeed a Villager, hence why I know they are wrong.
P3. Further proof of the scan being honest; and yet it's being altered by P1 to be false.

Salmon's view of Emerald is not based on the fact I scanned them, when it should be proof that their "high confidence" is wrong. Alongside Amber, they reached the conclusion Emerald was an elim based on things she and I both know are incorrect. They are using an unrelated source of important information to justify their own biased reads, which betrays their tunnel and paranoia over Seekers. They have been duped by false scans in the past and assume that must be the case now with no actual proof. They are working backwards, rather than forwards, and regardless of my alignment, I have severe problems with that. Everyone here should, themselves included.

A. While they bring up the possibility my Seeking of Emerald is truthful, albeit says nothing about my own alignment, Salmon refuses to engage with this from P1. He already has high confidence that Emerald is evil, right? It's the very reason by he goes on to focus on
B. There was no scan because we are teammates, and us inviting Salmon into a group PM was an elim!ploy to grab trust.

And thus it informs the rest of this post. The rest of his biases.

• First, my claim tripped red flags because he decided it was a ploy to "account" for my actions with an unprovable metal. He says it seemed designed to project the idea that we are trustworthy. Much like with the e!rioter --> e!emerald --> e!charcoal progression, Salmon takes an incredibly firm stance on something with a lot of unknowns. It does not consider the reality where I'm being honest of my scan and giving information I have to an all but confirmed Villager. It assumes the worst from the very start.
   
• Second, Salmon reveals his paranoia by talking at length about why he assumes the worst about Seekers. He talks about previous games in which scans have been used to gain trust, using those past games as evidence to insist this Seek could not be genuine. He says "people fixate on the utility of Seekers" while fixating on the fallibility of Seekers. It's the exact same problem that he's preaching against, but in reverse. If anything, this just proves that Seeker roles should not exist in the first place. It's the same problem with my reputation affecting paranoia. By embracing that paranoia instead of giving Seekers and me a chance to prove themselves, it renders their benefits completely useless. I could be lying because I'm an elim, so everything I say cannot be trusted. A Seeker could be lying because their an elim, so everything they say cannot be trusted. I didn't realize this before, but it's the exact phenomena repeating, and it explains why my reaction was so volatile to myself. It's unfair to the people who are honest and it does the village a diservice.
   
• Third, I am my own player. I can make decisions that are not what others consider optimal, for reasons that are completely my own. Salmon didn't even bother to inquire further than what base explanation I gave, and it's showing. So allow me to explain myself now. I only had one night to scan one person. I could either scan a player that I suspect and maybe get an elim, subsequently get that person executed D2, which requires me finding a player I trust enough to act as the intermediary for that information without the assurance they're a villager from a scan. Even if I contacted an elim and they still helped me execute their teammate, I'd be summarily killed, and any trust I may have earned is gone. Furthermore, the elims teammates could take advantage of the situation to bus and potentially earn village trust of their own, and the early loss of said elim would likely not drag any of them down because the executed elim would have much fewer posts to analyze. Personally, I would deem this situation a net loss, and thus I went for another tactic: deliberately finding another villager who I could bounce ideas back and forth, then slowly build up a trust group in secret to better narrow down the elims. Salmon mentions counter wagons (people I deem inevitable to be scrutinized by the village regardless and, if village themselves, could probably be figured out by myself, the person I scan, and every other hard working villager) as well as Emerald's activity (only present in the latter half of the cycle, which is a complete non-factor he didn't bother to ask about; I made the decision N1, even deliberated on it until the very last minute [Amber, Salmon, or Emerald], at which point Emerald had been active and put in what I read as genuine solving). Ultimately, my philosophy on village play is that it cannot be done alone. Teamwork is needed in order for us to prevail over the elims. Though we only start the game knowing our alignments, that does not make this a solo game. And so I decided to not play it like a solo game from the start.

He says he believes that combined with Emerald likewise pushing against the Turquoise lynch, this logic is immutable. Once again, it boils down to the question I've been asking since the flip. Why can't a Villager have opposed the Turquoise lynch? Why does opposing a single elim flip guarantee a players alignment? I ask these questions because I have the privilege of knowing that Emerald is a Villager from my scan, which proves to me this evidence is just not good enough. If there's any lesson we learn from this situation, it's this. Paranoia is not your friend. It might protect you sometimes, but it hurts people just as often. Hurts yourself and your ability to think, hurts the village's ability to work together and win a game, hurts your friends and loved ones. Especially the extremely emotional ones.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

I believe we've found one

I believe you have too.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

I thought you weren't having fun because you stated that you were very stressed. Also the post about not being able to be emotional. You can be emotional. I'm emotional. That's allowed.

I wasn't having fun originally. Not last night, no. Today I was, until the reactions from my initial post began rolling in, until Fifth stepped in, and I realized I was suddenly having too much fun. Up until today, I've been forcing myself to do work I wasn't passionate about (isolating people, analyzing votes) when that was never my strong suit, and it was literally driving me insane. I know Salmon feels my pain there, even if it's for a fundamentally different reason. Said insanity is why him and I got here in the first place. But no more. This insanity ends now.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

Okay, go ahead.

I did.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, Onyx Flamingo said:

Perhaps I misspoke; you were appealing to our emotions by treating Amber like he actually died, in real life, outside of a game. It's all fake. All of this is fake.

Yeah, to be honest, I was playing with my food there. It wasn't meant to convince anyone still alive that I'm village. It was a message specifically for Amber, which I now know I should have sent in our PM. A little friendly taunting. A lot of me wishing last night didn't happen, because it forced me to kill him when I really didn't want to. I'd have much preferred earning his trust and proving everyone's paranoia over me right with another resounding victory. Alas, it was but a dream. Alas, it's time to embrace reality.

 

@Salmon Meerkat

"Come! Let us cast aside titles and pretense, and reveal our true faces to one another!"

"I am Amanuensis! He who shall lead his brethren to victory from beyond dark slumber!"

Let the AMA and openwolfing begin.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Charcoal Hyena

[Emerald Falcon]

Pshhh nice Aman impersonation

[Charcoal Hyena]

Just now, Emerald Falcon said:

Pshhh nice Aman impersonation

Thank you. I've been practicing my entire life.

[Pearl Chameleon]

aman you bloody bastard

there is definitely a world where you almost got out of this

but not today

i am glad that you realized that you made a mistake in how you were trying to not die

thank you for accepting your death instead