Godking vs. fullborn

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Cometary said:

I disagree on his reputation keeping him alive. Pre Vin no one on Scadrial was able to kill him.

As far as I can tell, there would be four ways to kill him:

1. Separating him from his metalminds -  but this would probably require either a mist (Shard) powered Push / Pull, or another multi physical metal Compounder to overcome him physically. (Maybe an Honor era Herald could do it with basically infinite Stormlight?)

2. Massive Spiritual damage, beyond his ability to heal (running out of gold in his stomach). There are no Shardblades on Scadrial; I don't know if Aluminum Hemalurgy was known to anyone else on Scadrial; if anyone did, it was an Inquisitor, whom he could control (and he would presumably see an aluminum weapon coming via iron/steel Allomancy, anyway)

Still, Ruin knew Hemalurgy, so letting Kelsier stab him was a bad move imo. (Unless he was good enough with a-Iron/Steel to identify metals, and knew the spearhead was not a Hemalurgically dangerous metal.)

3. Massive Investiture drain - not available on Scadrial. Chromium wasn't available, and Leeching is probably too slow anyway.

4. Annihilation by a Shard not countered by an equal, as Ruin and Preservation were, or bound by oath like Odium.

Any feruchemist could have speedblitzed him. Spend a year saving up speed, crush TLR's head before he has time to begin burning or tapping gold. I doubt TLR constantly taps gold like Miles, so that would kill him. If they figured out about the metalminds, then they could kill him regardless of F-gold.

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The only way said weakness could be exploited was Vin being supercharged to power levels arguably even greater than TLR. It was a completely outside of context problem for him. That doesn't make him an idiot. Arrogant yes but not an idiot. Had literal divine intervention not happened no one would have even been able to exploit his weakness 

As I said above, there were other ways to kill him.

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Any feruchemist could have speedblitzed him. Spend a year saving up speed, crush TLR's head before he has time to begin burning or tapping gold. I doubt TLR constantly taps gold like Miles, so that would kill him. If they figured out about the metalminds, then they could kill him regardless of F-gold.

As I said above, there were other ways to kill him.

I doubt that plan would work. For starters, why wouldn't he be always tapping like Miles, he's got even better reason to. TLR likely has far far more speed stored up than anything any other Feruchemist has ever stored. Plus he's always burning metals, meaning his senses are enhanced, and if his Pewter scales up even close to his Brass or how strong Wax's Steelpushes were with the Bands he could probably out muscle a Feruchemist with his Allomantic Pewter alone. Wax has proven that Steelsight can react to fast moving metal objects. The moment that his hyper enhanced Tin senses or Steelsight notice a bunch of metal coming at him at high speed he could easily tap his mental and physical speed.

[NameIess]

Just now, StanLemon said:

I doubt that plan would work. For starters, why wouldn't he be always tapping like Miles, he's got even better reason to. TLR likely has far far more speed stored up than anything any other Feruchemist has ever stored. Plus he's always burning metals, meaning his senses are enhanced, and if his Pewter scales up even close to his Brass or how strong Wax's Steelpushes were with the Bands he could probably out muscle a Feruchemist with his Allomantic Pewter alone. Wax has proven that Steelsight can react to fast moving metal objects. The moment that his hyper enhanced Tin senses or Steelsight notice a bunch of metal coming at him at high speed he could easily tap his mental and physical speed.

Because he's arrogant. because he doesn't want people to wonder why he goes through literal tons of gold every year. Outmuscling a feruchemist doesn't matter if he can't react to them in time. The amount of time he'd have to react to a feruchemist smashing his skull or ripping his metalminds off would be about the same as the amount of time he had to react to Vin ripping his metalminds off. He didn't react to one when he was fighting an opponent, why would he react to another when he was sitting alone in his rooms off guard?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Because he's arrogant. because he doesn't want people to wonder why he goes through literal tons of gold every year. Outmuscling a feruchemist doesn't matter if he can't react to them in time. The amount of time he'd have to react to a feruchemist smashing his skull or ripping his metalminds off would be about the same as the amount of time he had to react to Vin ripping his metalminds off. He didn't react to one when he was fighting an opponent, why would he react to another when he was sitting alone in his rooms off guard?

TLR knows how to use Steelsight without having spikes so he could see anyone coming at mach speeds giving him time to prepare.

And he has inquisitors and if his bronze scales to his zinc he should be able to sense Feruchemy.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

TLR knows how to use Steelsight without having spikes so he could see anyone coming at mach speeds giving him time to prepare.

So he's never been in the same room as a Terris? What if Sazed had gotten a full steelmind on the way to help Vin? Even with the Terris people being discouraged from touching metal as they are, it was stupid to place a group of beaten down potentially deadly assassins in the place of honored servants.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Any feruchemist could have speedblitzed him. Spend a year saving up speed, crush TLR's head before he has time to begin burning or tapping gold.

I kind of doubt it, but this gets into questions of reaction time to use Allomantic/Feruchemical powers. Given the ability to react to coins, and just how fast a coin would have to move to be lethal, I think the reaction time to use powers is really, really fast - so TLR would just speed up even more.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Because he's arrogant. because he doesn't want people to wonder why he goes through literal tons of gold every year.

Miles doesn't use anywhere near that much, it's described as expensive admittedly, but no way he's that rich. Allomancy generally uses very small amounts of metal, anyway.

Anyway, he could just eat some charged flakes once in a while to re-fill his goldminds. He wouldn't be constantly eating gold, just tapping.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

The amount of time he'd have to react to a feruchemist smashing his skull or ripping his metalminds off would be about the same as the amount of time he had to react to Vin ripping his metalminds off. He didn't react to one when he was fighting an opponent, why would he react to another when he was sitting alone in his rooms off guard?

Not quite the same thing. According to everything he knew about Allomancy, no one except possibly himself could remove metals piercing the body (especially Invested metalminds). He didn't know Vin could do that until they were already gone (at which point he seems shocked -- which may not be just psychological, there could be some savant style Investiture dependency going on like HoA Spook without tin -- not that he could fight a Shard boosted Push anyway).

He does know Feruchemical Steel exists.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

So he's never been in the same room as a Terris? What if Sazed had gotten a full steelmind on the way to help Vin? Even with the Terris people being discouraged from touching metal as they are, it was stupid to place a group of beaten down potentially deadly assassins in the place of honored servants.

The Terris aren't discouraged from touching metal anymore, that policy was abandoned, IIRC.

I really do think reaction time to use powers is fast enough that Feruchemists are zero threat to him; if he can Push on a Hemalurgic spike in Vin's ear, he can pin down a Feruchemist by his metalminds.

If you can react to a coin which is probably going 500-600 mph, a charging Feruchemist won't be a problem. There *are* limits even to f-Steel.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

If you can react to a coin which is probably going 500-600 mph, a charging Feruchemist won't be a problem. There *are* limits even to f-Steel.

A completely full metalmind, (The bands of mourning) let Marasi move so fast that everything around her was frozen. Including allomancers. That kind of speed cannot be reacted to. One second TLR would be talking calmly with some noblemen, the next millesecond later he's dead.

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

A completely full metalmind, (The bands of mourning) let Marasi move so fast that everything around her was frozen. Including allomancers. That kind of speed cannot be reacted to. One second TLR would be talking calmly with some noblemen, the next millesecond later he's dead.

That kind of speed would require someone to store for their entire life and a 90 year old man is no threat

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

That kind of speed would require someone to store for their entire life and a 90 year old man is no threat

Assuming you only need a minute of time, every day is 24*60=1,440 minutes. Every year is 365*1,440=525,600 minutes. Assuming you stored half of your speed for twenty years straight, you would have 5.256 million minutes of double speed. Even with diminishing returns, I think you'd have more than enough speed to kill TLR in an eyeblink.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Assuming you only need a minute of time, every day is 24*60=1,440 minutes. Every year is 365*1,440=525,600 minutes. Assuming you stored half of your speed for twenty years straight, you would have 5.256 million minutes of double speed. Even with diminishing returns, I think you'd have more than enough speed to kill TLR in an eyeblink.

You get diminishing returns for going past 1.5 speed which is what you would actually get, and it dimineshes more the higher you compress it.

And on top of that you have to hold on to all of your metalminds, despite being a complacent servent, for twenty years.

 

And on top of that he can heal unless you kill him the first time. and he's had a propaganda machine churning for 1,023 years saying he's immortal.

It's a lot less likely than you make it sound

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

You get diminishing returns for going past 1.5 speed which is what you would actually get, and it dimineshes more the higher you compress it.

And on top of that you have to hold on to all of your metalminds, despite being a complacent servent, for twenty years.

 

And on top of that he can heal unless you kill him the first time. and he's had a propaganda machine churning for 1,023 years saying he's immortal.

It's a lot less likely than you make it sound

I don't think diminishing returns cares what amount of speed you stored. It get converted into investiture, and we get no indication that the investiture in metalminds is separated depending on what speed you stored it at. Regardless, a full minute to run up to TLR, tap pewter, and crush his head in your hands is kinda generous anyways, so I don't think diminishing returns matters all that much in this scenario. Say you go at 1,000 times speed for one minute of your time, (1,000 times less efficient) you can now run at about 6,500 miles an hour, or mach 8, and is much faster than even modern bullets travel.

Sazed wasn't a faithful servant for 20 years. He joined Kelsier's crew and didn't really have any need to be connected to nobility. He could feasibly have hidden for 20 years, then had Kelsier or some other underground contacts get him as a servant to some high-ranking house like the Ventures, waited until he got into TLR's presence, and struck.

Propaganda has nothing to do with it. The whole point I am trying to make is that TLR believed his own propaganda too much. He thought himself immortal, and thus neglected to cover his weaknesses. He wasn't paranoid enough.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

I don't think diminishing returns cares what amount of speed you stored. It get converted into investiture, and we get no indication that the investiture in metalminds is separated depending on what speed you stored it at. Regardless, a full minute to run up to TLR, tap pewter, and crush his head in your hands is kinda generous anyways, so I don't think diminishing returns matters all that much in this scenario. Say you go at 1,000 times speed for one minute of your time, (1,000 times less efficient) you can now run at about 6,500 miles an hour, or mach 8, and is much faster than even modern bullets travel.

Considering F-steel A-pewter  would win a race with a steel compounder I have to disagree

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Considering F-steel A-pewter  would win a race with a steel compounder I have to disagree

Are you referencing this WoB?

Quote

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

I think that what Brandon is saying is that A-pewter would allow for a higher maximum speed. This doesn't say anything about what that maximum speed normally is.

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

A completely full metalmind, (The bands of mourning) let Marasi move so fast that everything around her was frozen. Including allomancers. That kind of speed cannot be reacted to. One second TLR would be talking calmly with some noblemen, the next millesecond later he's dead.

The Bands are kind of a special case (and absurdly high power level), but in any case, Marasi is using Allomancy and Feruchemy together here, it's not something a pure Feruchemist can do. (Allomantic Iron/Steel flight is pretty fast already, and she's multiplying that with F-Steel, and probably using crazy levels of A-Pewter to survive.)

Someone with the Bands could defeat TLR, just as another Fullborn could - and TLR wasn't exuding mist, so I think the Bands are actually stronger than TLR.

2 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Are you referencing this WoB?

I think that what Brandon is saying is that A-pewter would allow for a higher maximum speed. This doesn't say anything about what that maximum speed normally is.

True, but given that the limits are wind resistance etc. we can extrapolate from RL. It would be hard to function much above 100mph (that is a significant hurricane). Humans can't stand/walk against winds over about 120mph.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

The Bands are kind of a special case (and absurdly high power level), but in any case, Marasi is using Allomancy and Feruchemy together here, it's not something a pure Feruchemist can do. (Allomantic Iron/Steel flight is pretty fast already, and she's multiplying that with F-Steel, and probably using crazy levels of A-Pewter to survive.)

Someone with the Bands could defeat TLR, just as another Fullborn could - and TLR wasn't exuding mist, so I think the Bands are actually stronger than TLR.

True, but given that the limits are wind resistance etc. we can extrapolate from RL. It would be hard to function much above 100mph (that is a significant hurricane). Humans can't stand/walk against winds over about 120mph.

That same WoB mentions that It strengthens your body, although there are limits. We don't know what those limits are.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

That same WoB mentions that It strengthens your body, although there are limits. We don't know what those limits are.

IIRC another WoB says that it protects from the effects of the ability itself e.g. G-forces. So a Feruchemist using Steel is strengthened against the acceleration, and doesn't get squashed by G-forces or break legs due to the internal forces at the joints - but external-world stuff is not affected, so friction with the floor and wind resistance still matter.

Which fits how other Feruchemy works - when Wax becomes the weight of a building he doesn't crush himself, but he also doesn't become bulletproof.

I think this is a case where fan discussion has assumed more power for F-steel (in isolation from other powers) than actually shown in the books. 100-120mph, combined with say x10-12 human reaction time/agility/etc, probably is enough to seem utterly overwhelming to human senses (I've seen big cats described as "blurringly" fast, and they are maybe 40-60mph).

[NameIess]

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

IIRC another WoB says that it protects from the effects of the ability itself e.g. G-forces. So a Feruchemist using Steel is strengthened against the acceleration, and doesn't get squashed by G-forces or break legs due to the internal forces at the joints - but external-world stuff is not affected, so friction with the floor and wind resistance still matter.

Which fits how other Feruchemy works - when Wax becomes the weight of a building he doesn't crush himself, but he also doesn't become bulletproof.

I think this is a case where fan discussion has assumed more power for F-steel (in isolation from other powers) than actually shown in the books. 100-120mph, combined with say x10-12 human reaction time/agility/etc, probably is enough to seem utterly overwhelming to human senses (I've seen big cats described as "blurringly" fast, and they are maybe 40-60mph).

Fine. Maybe this specific method would not work, but the point remains. Rashek was in an extremely unstable mindset that was not rational, which also lead directly to his death. Almost any other person with experience using fullborn powers would be more dangerous than Rashek, as well as harder to kill.

[cometaryorbit]

14 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Fine. Maybe this specific method would not work, but the point remains. Rashek was in an extremely unstable mindset that was not rational, which also lead directly to his death. Almost any other person with experience using fullborn powers would be more dangerous than Rashek, as well as harder to kill.

I will agree that he wouldn't have died if he had been completely stable. (Although, I think one could argue that since Ruin was influencing TLR mentally, and Vin killing TLR was part of Ruin's plan, even TLR's mental instability was essentially part of him being defeated by Shardic intervention...)

I agree a fully sane Fullborn would be more dangerous. TLR also probably had the limit, combat-wise, of lacking access to bendalloy, chromium, and nicrosil - he knew they existed, but I don't think it could be made in the FE.

On the other hand, he had Atium, which e.g. an Era 2 user of the Bands of Mourning wouldn't have - which gave him immortality and atium's combat advantage.

[NameIess]

10 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

I will agree that he wouldn't have died if he had been completely stable. (Although, I think one could argue that since Ruin was influencing TLR mentally, and Vin killing TLR was part of Ruin's plan, even TLR's mental instability was essentially part of him being defeated by Shardic intervention...)

I agree a fully sane Fullborn would be more dangerous. TLR also probably had the limit, combat-wise, of lacking access to bendalloy, chromium, and nicrosil - he knew they existed, but I don't think it could be made in the FE.

On the other hand, he had Atium, which e.g. an Era 2 user of the Bands of Mourning wouldn't have - which gave him immortality and atium's combat advantage.

Whether or not TLR's weakened mental state was part of Ruin's plan has no effect on whether or not his mental state makes him less effective as a fullborn.

[cometaryorbit]

True.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I think that the only way Awakening could threaten a Fullborn would be through a Nightblood equivalent. Conventional Awakened objects, or an army of Lifeless, would be no threat. But something that can eat Investiture could be a threat to even the most powerful Investiture user.

[StanLemon]

Here is a possible advantage for a Godking. Assuming they are aware of the Fullborn's Metalminds, what if they Awaken those Metalminds to act against the Fullborn

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Here is a possible advantage for a Godking. Assuming they are aware of the Fullborn's Metalminds, what if they Awaken those Metalminds to act against the Fullborn

I'd think that their investiture combined with metal's inherent difficulty to awaken would make that near immposible.

[StanLemon]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I'd think that their investiture combined with metal's inherent difficulty to awaken would make that near immposible.

Probably, but if anyone has enough Investiture to overcome that it would be a Godking. It's an interesting thought experiment 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Probably, but if anyone has enough Investiture to overcome that it would be a Godking. It's an interesting thought experiment 

How unfortunate Brandon hasn't given us number yet so we can't calculate that.

It is intresting to think about I will give you that.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

Quote

Even during the height of his power, Vasher himself had only managed to Awaken metal on a few select occasions. Of course, some extremely powerful Awakeners could bring objects to life that they weren’t touching, but that were in the sound of their voice. That, however, required the Ninth Heightening. Even Vahr didn’t have that much Breath. In fact, Vasher knew of only one living person who did: the God King himself.

- Warbreaker Prologue

This seems to imply that someone with more breaths than Vasher had could awaken metal more frequently than Vasher could. Since Susebron has around as many Breaths as TwilyghtSansSparkles has reputation, I'd say that he would be able to Awaken metal much more easily than Vasher at the height of his power. Even assuming he did have the Tenth Heightening (while the quote above seems to suggest he did not), that would still only be Voidus or Kobold amounts of Breath.