Godking vs. fullborn

[lukaash]

Edit to say that I am not talking specifically about the godking here, but anyone with the 10th heightening. 

It is a common belief that being a fullborn is one of the most powerful things that a person can become besides holding a shard. I just finished Warbreaker, and I don't think this is true. Someone with the 10th heightening should be stronger.  I am going to use a weird example to explain how I think about it. A fullborn is like superman. Fullborn gives you the ability of flight, super strength, super sight (and other senses), and regeneration. Not only that, but they get other powers like time manipulation. Someone with the 10th heightening is like batman. Basically unlimited resources and the only thing stopping them is their imagination. You can influence your mind with awakening, so I bet that you would also be able to influence your body to some degree. You could also just awaken metal in a similar fashion to how Vasher awakens cloth. With enough time to prepare, there really isn't anything (besides a shard and mabye a unchained bondsmith. I only mentioned unchained bondsmith because I have head canon that bondsmiths could break the connection established by awakeners and the objects they awaken). Batman always beats superman with enough time even though superman is unstoppable.

 Some ideas to how someone with the 10th heightening could beat a fullborn is a lot. Stuff like nightblood is an obvious example (though nightblood is a bad example because it is unique). But any insta destroy stuff will be incredibly useful. You can't suffocate a fullborn, but you could awaken a magnet and pull metal minds off of the fullborn. You could awaken non metal objects to cut off the fullborns head (sharp plastic). A lifeless army would be very useful. A sword that can cut through metal would be great. There are so many possible aventues to go down that I think that someone with the 10th heightening should be able to beat a fullborn with enough time. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by lukaash

[StanLemon]

While this is specifically about Rashek vs Susebron, and the experience vs inexperience divide between them so it doesn't specifically refer to any Fullborn vs 10th Heightening but here is a WoB

Quote

Questioner

God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek, probably.

Questioner

By a lot or a little?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation.

Questioner

Okay. How so?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*.

Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage.

Basically, because Feruchemy and Allomancy are so much more combat oriented, the Fullborn would likely still be at the advantage in a fight. The problem, same as the Fullborn vs Herald debates is just how stupidly broken F-Steel is. But, with your Batman analogy, if the Awakener could find some way to get rid of his Steelminds the fight could be a lot more even.

[Frustration]

Unless the person with tenth heightening can make another Nightblood their toast, A-Chromium will bleed them dry.

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Unless the person with tenth heightening can make another Nightblood their toast, A-Chromium will bleed them dry.

A-chromium almost certainly doesn't work on breaths. Besides, a fullborn wouldn't need it. They could kill the Godking before he had time to blink.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

A-chromium almost certainly doesn't work on breaths. Besides, a fullborn wouldn't need it. They could kill the Godking before he had time to blink.

Why not?

Nightblood can drain it, Hemalurgy can steal it, Larkin can eat it, why not Chromium?

 

And you do have a point it is possible to kill them without, I think the statement you could make of bleeding them dry and leaving them a drab would break them in an even more real sense.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Nightblood can drain it, Hemalurgy can steal it, Larkin can eat it, why not Chromium?

Nightblood can eat your soul, hemalurgy rips chunks off your soul. Do you have a source for the Larkin thing? I'm pretty sure that breaths are a part of your soul, and taking them out would be like eating a spren or something.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Nightblood can eat your soul, hemalurgy rips chunks off your soul. Do you have a source for the Larkin thing? I'm pretty sure that breaths are a part of your soul, and taking them out would be like eating a spren or something.

Yep

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

So, Vasher has been on Roshar to live off the Stormlight. Does he know about larkins?

Brandon Sanderson

He has heard of larkins.

Mason Wheeler

How afraid of them is he?

Brandon Sanderson

He is happy that are all supposedly extinct. They would kill him.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Also Brandon has not confirmed whether it can or not but he has said that most systems will work together and that bronze would detect someone with a lot of breath

Spoiler

Questioner

If an Allomancer found themselves on Nalthis or Roshar, would they be able to use chromium on someone using Stormlight or Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

I am staying away from answering too many questions like that until I start having it happen. But do know that the magics interact... some ways they interact very naturally, some ways, they don’t. One way I’ve released is, you could use bronze on most forms of Investiture to find it. So you can extrapolate that some of these things would work. But not necessarily all. All of them could be made to work.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Yep

  Reveal hidden contents

Mason Wheeler

So, Vasher has been on Roshar to live off the Stormlight. Does he know about larkins?

Brandon Sanderson

He has heard of larkins.

Mason Wheeler

How afraid of them is he?

Brandon Sanderson

He is happy that are all supposedly extinct. They would kill him.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Also Brandon has not confirmed whether it can or not but he has said that most systems will work together and that bronze would detect someone with a lot of breath

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If an Allomancer found themselves on Nalthis or Roshar, would they be able to use chromium on someone using Stormlight or Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

I am staying away from answering too many questions like that until I start having it happen. But do know that the magics interact... some ways they interact very naturally, some ways, they don’t. One way I’ve released is, you could use bronze on most forms of Investiture to find it. So you can extrapolate that some of these things would work. But not necessarily all. All of them could be made to work.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Hm. Well, Larkins might be really really powerful, or it could be because Vasher's soul is more fragile than other cognitive shadows, as Chiri-chiri didn't kill a fused. Or maybe Larkins get stronger as they age. Maybe they hunt spren? That would be really cool honestly. Still, it wouldn't really make sense for A-chromium to be that powerful. It can't drain metalminds unless they're being used right? Maybe it will be able to get rid of breaths in awakened objects, but straight up sucking away thousands of breaths? Seems a little bit too OP to me.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Hm. Well, Larkins might be really really powerful, or it could be because Vasher's soul is more fragile than other cognitive shadows, as Chiri-chiri didn't kill a fused. Or maybe Larkins get stronger as they age. Maybe they hunt spren? That would be really cool honestly. Still, it wouldn't really make sense for A-chromium to be that powerful. It can't drain metalminds unless they're being used right? Maybe it will be able to get rid of breaths in awakened objects, but straight up sucking away thousands of breaths? Seems a little bit too OP to me.

I doubt they could drain them from an object, but people sure.

As in a sentient object they act like a soul were in people they are added on.

EDIT: also metalminds can be leeched.

Spoiler

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I doubt they could drain them from an object, but people sure.

As in a sentient object they act like a soul were in people they are added on.

Well, whatever the answer, it's mostly irrelevant to this discussion. A well prepared tenth-heightening awakener would only beat a fullborn if they caught them by surprise. Assuming that fullborn wasn't TLR. That guy was stupid.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Well, whatever the answer, it's mostly irrelevant to this discussion. A well prepared tenth-heightening awakener would only beat a fullborn if they caught them by surprise. Assuming that fullborn wasn't TLR. That guy was stupid.

That I will agree to.

Also I have edited my previous post to include a WoB on leeching metalminds if you haven't seen it. If you have forget I added this

[Olmund]

14 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

A well prepared tenth-heightening awakener would only beat a fullborn if they caught them by surprise. Assuming that fullborn wasn't TLR. That guy was stupid.

Far be it from me to defend TLR, but Rashek was caught by surprise -- and he had to deal with Deus ex Mists-infused Vin. I wouldn't call him stupid -- he was ruthless, arrogant, world-weary, and his judgment was clouded by Ruin gnawing at him for a millenium. Yes, in hindsight he could have easily killed Vin had he not been so certain of his own invincibility -- but Vin killed him using methods that were completely without precedent, so I wouldn't say that's evidence of him being stupid. Unless your definition of "stupid" includes anyone who commits a trivial oversight, like failing to wash your hands before eating once in your entire life -- in which case we are all incredibly stupid, and the point is moot.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Far be it from me to defend TLR, but Rashek was caught by surprise -- and he had to deal with Deus ex Mists-infused Vin. I wouldn't call him stupid -- he was ruthless, arrogant, world-weary, and his judgment was clouded by Ruin gnawing at him for a millenium. Yes, in hindsight he could have easily killed Vin had he not been so certain of his own invincibility -- but Vin killed him using methods that were completely without precedent, so I wouldn't say that's evidence of him being stupid. Unless your definition of "stupid" includes anyone who commits a trivial oversight, like failing to wash your hands before eating once in your entire life -- in which case we are all incredibly stupid, and the point is moot.

A "trivial oversight" such as electing to slowly kill Vin instead of killing her quickly. He was too certain of his immortality, and that's what makes him stupid.

[Olmund]

32 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

A "trivial oversight" such as electing to slowly kill Vin instead of killing her quickly. He was too certain of his immortality, and that's what makes him stupid.

As I said, you're making this judgment with the benefit of hindsight. By the time he met Vin, he had killed countless people -- including allomancers and feruchemists back when their bloodlines were still strong. Despite being a Mistborn, Vin was practically an insect to him -- and without her metals she was an insect without pincers or venom. The next time you have a fly buzzing around your head and fail to immediately swat it you will be guilty of a similar offense. You wouldn't be stupid if the fly suddenly transformed into the Hulk and crushed you with its fists, because no one could reasonably expect you to anticipate that development.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Olmund

[NameIess]

12 minutes ago, Olmund said:

As I said, you're making this judgment with the benefit of hindsight. By the time he met Vin, he had killed countless people -- including allomancers and feruchemists back when their bloodlines were still strong. Despite being a Mistborn, Vin was practically an insect to him -- and without her metals she was an insect without pincers or venom. The next time you have a fly buzzing around your head and fail to immediately swat it you will be guilty of a similar offense. You wouldn't be stupid if the fly suddenly transformed into the Hulk and crushed you with its fists, because no one could reasonably expect you to anticipate that development.

He was stupid to see Vin as a fly, not matter how many people he had killed. Overconfidence is stupidity, and a Mistborn is still dangerous, no matter how powerful you are.

[Frustration]

41 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

A "trivial oversight" such as electing to slowly kill Vin instead of killing her quickly. He was too certain of his immortality, and that's what makes him stupid.

Vin was the only person in the world who could have harmed him and he had no way to know that.

Now, why he didn't use pewter stand up and kill her when she was unconcious is a different story

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Vin was the only person in the world who could have harmed him and he had no way to know that.

Doesn't matter. What would he have done if a feruchemist had used F-steel to superspeed up to him and rip off his arm bracers? What if Vin had figured out that Sazed storing aluminum allowed her to burn his metalminds, and discovered compounding? died. He would've died. He assumed himself invincible, and died because of it.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Now, why he didn't use pewter stand up and kill her when she was unconcious is a different story

Well, at that point, he should've been dust, so I don't think he really had an option. Pewter is probably all that kept him alive as long as he lived.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Doesn't matter. What would he have done if a feruchemist had used F-steel to superspeed up to him and rip off his arm bracers? What if Vin had figured out that Sazed storing aluminum allowed her to burn his metalminds, and discovered compounding? died. He would've died. He assumed himself invincible, and died because of it.

No one knew aluminum was viable but him, and he was certain feruchemists had died out.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

No one knew aluminum was viable but him, and he was certain feruchemists had died out.

Actually, I think he knew they still existed, considering the inquisitors had f-gold spikes as standard. Inquisitors also knew about that, and they had administered aluminum to Vin. It was possible he could die there, and as close to the well filling again as he was, it was stupid to take any risk, no matter how small. Especially since he knew that Ruin was working against him.

[cometaryorbit]

TLR was I think not all that mentally stable at the end.

He seemed to alternate between seeing himself as a genuine god and being deeply concerned about Ruin (e.g. building the storage caverns), and when he died he was more in the "I am a god" mode.

He talks about how utterly pointless the skaa rebellion is - "God cannot be defeated" - and I don't think he was just boasting there; I read that as him being genuinely annoyed at the stupidity of people deciding to fight him when there is no possible outcome other than their losing and dying.

He was definitely overconfident, but OTOH he genuinely was taken down by something he had no way to predict - even post Ascension Sazed doesn't fully understand why Vin could do that in the final HOA epigraph.

30 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

and a Mistborn is still dangerous, no matter how powerful you are.

Not really, at TLRs power level. Any other Mistborn in the world (e.g. Kelsier) would have been zero danger to him. It's only mist burning that made Vin a threat.

Even Leeching would take too long to threaten him - as soon as he felt his metals decreasing he'd compound Speed.

His really dumb move, IMO, was letting Kelsier stab him. If it had been the right kind of Hemalurgic spike... probably would not have been fatal, but having to eat his jewelry to get his healing back would be a huge giveaway.

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

TLR was I think not all that mentally stable at the end.

He seemed to alternate between seeing himself as a genuine god and being deeply concerned about Ruin (e.g. building the storage caverns), and when he died he was more in the "I am a god" mode.

He talks about how utterly pointless the skaa rebellion is - "God cannot be defeated" - and I don't think he was just boasting there; I read that as him being genuinely annoyed at the stupidity of people deciding to fight him when there is no possible outcome other than their losing and dying.

He was definitely overconfident, but OTOH he genuinely was taken down by something he had no way to predict - even post Ascension Sazed doesn't fully understand why Vin could do that in the final HOA epigraph.

Not really, at TLRs power level. Any other Mistborn in the world (e.g. Kelsier) would have been zero danger to him. It's only mist burning that made Vin a threat.

Even Leeching would take too long to threaten him - as soon as he felt his metals decreasing he'd compound Speed.

His really dumb move, IMO, was letting Kelsier stab him. If it had been the right kind of Hemalurgic spike... probably would not have been fatal, but having to eat his jewelry to get his healing back would be a huge giveaway.

Whether it's because of stupidity or mental instability, the result is the same. he assumed he was a god, completely unkillable, when he actually had multiple glaring weaknesses. his reputation was the only thing keeping him alive at that point.

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

his reputation was the only thing keeping him alive at that point.

Uh, his raw power was what was keeping him alive. It literally took the machinations of not one but two gods for him to die

[NameIess]

Just now, StanLemon said:

Uh, his raw power was what was keeping him alive. It literally took the machinations of not one but two gods for him to die

Well, there was that, but those machinations would never have succeeded if he hadn't been in an awful mental state. Because of his assumed immortality, he didn't properly protect his weaknesses.

[cometaryorbit]

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Whether it's because of stupidity or mental instability, the result is the same. he assumed he was a god, completely unkillable, when he actually had multiple glaring weaknesses. his reputation was the only thing keeping him alive at that point.

I disagree on his reputation keeping him alive. Pre Vin no one on Scadrial was able to kill him.

As far as I can tell, there would be four ways to kill him:

1. Separating him from his metalminds -  but this would probably require either a mist (Shard) powered Push / Pull, or another multi physical metal Compounder to overcome him physically. (Maybe an Honor era Herald could do it with basically infinite Stormlight?)

2. Massive Spiritual damage, beyond his ability to heal (running out of gold in his stomach). There are no Shardblades on Scadrial; I don't know if Aluminum Hemalurgy was known to anyone else on Scadrial; if anyone did, it was an Inquisitor, whom he could control (and he would presumably see an aluminum weapon coming via iron/steel Allomancy, anyway)

Still, Ruin knew Hemalurgy, so letting Kelsier stab him was a bad move imo. (Unless he was good enough with a-Iron/Steel to identify metals, and knew the spearhead was not a Hemalurgically dangerous metal.)

3. Massive Investiture drain - not available on Scadrial. Chromium wasn't available, and Leeching is probably too slow anyway.

4. Annihilation by a Shard not countered by an equal, as Ruin and Preservation were, or bound by oath like Odium.

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Well, there was that, but those machinations would never have succeeded if he hadn't been in an awful mental state. Because of his assumed immortality, he didn't properly protect his weaknesses.

The only way said weakness could be exploited was Vin being supercharged to power levels arguably even greater than TLR. It was a completely outside of context problem for him. That doesn't make him an idiot. Arrogant yes but not an idiot. Had literal divine intervention not happened no one would have even been able to exploit his weakness