(Theory) How FTL travel will work in the Cosmere

[cpw2007]

A thought I had the other day of how FTL travel could work in the Cosmere:

Brandon had dropped a number of hints over the years of works that have inspired him. What I can imagine is something that blends Dune and Star Wars for FTL travel. 

I think it will use a combinations of the magic systems that can be used by one Navigator, but probably needs a team just to be safe. 

First you will have traditional rockets to help with small adjustments, but they won't be used for FTL. 

A Misborn will be employed to steer the ship and give it its initial thrust. Momentum will become an issue in space, but I believe that "anchors" will be set up throughout space to keep the ship moving faster and faster (similar to the spikes Kelsier and Vin used in Era 1).

However, they won't be traveling through space itself, they'll be traveling through Shadesmar. I believe the Cognitive Realm has shorter distances and would give a Hyperspace type feel as they travel between the Realms. 

An Elsecaller would be best since they seem to have the easiest time going back and forth (Am I correct on this?). I can see them surrounded by a giant dome of perfect spheres to use the stormlight. 

I can also envision Roshar becoming very important for fuel in the future. He who controls the Stormlight controls the Cosmere? Do we see conflict between the previously friendly House Stormblessed and House Kholin? Maybe Roshar will be known as Jasnian Prime?

 

I know the use of Medallions could come into play, but I think having full blooded Misborns and Radiants would probably be more powerful. 

I also understand the work of Rabonnial and Navani demonstrated how magic has specific sounds and the insane amount of different Light-Magic there is on Roshar.

I'm sure there is some combination of all the Cosmere magic that can make FTL work, so if you can point that out or poke a hole in my theory, please do! 

[spaidapig]

Quote

Steeldancer (paraphrased)

Have you ever heard of the Alcubierre Drive? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, I know about the Alcubierre drive. 

Steeldancer (paraphrased)

So, if we took two speed bubbles--mechanized, because Allomancers aren't powerful enough to pull it off--could we create a functioning Alcubierre drive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You are theorizing in the right direction. 

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

I don't know if you are familiar with an Alcubierre Drive. But it's basically a mechanism to warp the spacetime around you (the space in front of you is contracted and the space behind is expaded).
If you employ two opposing speedbubbles correctling, at least that is the line the questioner was thinking along, you could mimic these effects. Of course these bubbles need to be large enough to fit a spaceship in there, but with correct usage of primer cubes this could work out pretty well.

 

 

[Quantus]

I dont think their FTL will be using the Cognitive Realm, since that is a method the worlds have available now.  I think the whole catch is that they will be travelling the actual distance in the Physical.  The Alcubierre Drive method posted is a good catch, and I fully expect some Fortune Effect (Atium or Compounded feruchemy) will be used Dune-style for navigation by pathfinding in the near future.  

[HSuperLee]

Honestly I feel like going FTL in the cognitive realm would be overkill, considering that most of the planets are in walking distance to eachother. Plus, as much as we've tended to see CR physics as similar to PhR physics, I feel like things such as Lasting Integrity show us that they're really not, and as such I fear for what effects getting up to relativistic velocity would do in that realm. I do agree that transportation through the CR would be very useful, but I don't see why anything beyond car or train speeds would be very necessary. Plus a big advantage that the PhR has is the fact that the CR compresses locations without minds, meaning that if you wanted to stop by a moon in an uninhabited solar system to grab a refill of hydrogen for fuel, you kinda can't do that in the CR, as said location doesn't really exist there.

I definitely think Scadrians will probably be the first to really discover FTL, since it seems like the temporal metals are going to play a significant role in it. It might even be that the "warp drives" used by all people of the Cosmere end up being metallic-arts technology that gets traded for other resources or equipment. Sanderson has said that there will be a lot of sharing of tech during the space age, so I imagine Scadrian Drives will likely be very common.

Quote

Genabackan

By the time of Sixth of the Dusk, are the Ones Above undisputably the most technologically advanced society in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they aren't. There has been some concurrent development, and a lot of sharing technology--to the point that you could make an argument for several societies being equal, though some better in specific areas.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

I am not sure if any other magic systems will also be able to develop FTL or not though. However, I do agree that the Rosharan magics will be very significant in terms of power supply, since the Bondsmiths seem to be able to just conjure their respective lights and infuse them into gemstones or radiants at will, without even doing the whole perpendicular opening thing. I even made a comment at one point about the Sibling unmanifesting Urithuru and then remanifesting in orbit as a massive ship or space station that could then act as a fueling dock for Rosharan ships (assuming that at that point in time getting light and spren off of Roshar will be a well-known and common phenomenon).

[Anomander Rake]

From all the WoBs on FTL and worldhopping, it seems pretty likely there is going to be interplanetary travel both through the PR and CR as we get into the future of the Cosmere.  I agree with a lot of the other replies that true FTL travel (meaning not calling moving from planet to planet in the Shadesmar FTL) is probably going to be reserved to the physical realm though.

 

That doesn't meant travel in Shadesmar should be left unoptimized though!  I've always kind of thought of the mapping of the PR to CR to be similar to the mapping of the Overworld to the Nether in Minecraft, though admittedly the MC example is a way simplified version, as it maps a 2D plane to a 2D plane, as opposed to a mapping a 3D world to a 2D plane.  Anyone reasonably familiar with the game will know of Nether highways!  For those who aren't aware, here's the skinny: the Nether, a second dimension in Minecraft, is mapped to the original overworld dimension, however, horizontal Overworld distances are scaled down in the Nether by a factor of 8:1.  This means traveling a distance of 10 blocks in the Nether effectively transports you 80 in the Overworld!  Using this to your advantage, you can set up a railway in the Nether can let you travel way faster than possible in the Overworld, covering large distances in a fraction of the time.  This is essentially what we see happening in the books - but then, the characters are only on foot/boat!  I dont know if the scale and distances, or even the "map" of Shadesmar will change as Roshar/etc develops, but more permanent modes of transport are almost inevitable

 

I'm very excited to see more of the cosmere undergo industrialization and change like we saw in Mistborn.  The potential for technology in fabrials and unsealed metalminds is insane!

[Tglassy]

There are places you can't get to using Shadesmar.  Specifically, any place that doesn't have a Perpendicularity.  And I assume it's hard to get on/off Sel through Shadesmar.  

I always figured Windrunners would be a big part of space travel.  I mean, they can create Atomospheric Pressure.  So technically, they could fly off world on their own.  But even if they didn't, they can literally create thrust without an engine.  Gravity constantly increases speed, and in a vacuum, the speed would eventually reach past the speed of light.  Or something.  I assume the whole 32 ft per second squared thing, with no wind resistance and nothing to stop them, would eventually go beyond the speed of light, particularly if you use multiple lashings.  Perhaps you can use Ettmetal to simulate lashings?  You'd probably need a frick ton of Stormlight, though.

[HSuperLee]

32 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

There are places you can't get to using Shadesmar.  Specifically, any place that doesn't have a Perpendicularity.  And I assume it's hard to get on/off Sel through Shadesmar.  

I always figured Windrunners would be a big part of space travel.  I mean, they can create Atomospheric Pressure.  So technically, they could fly off world on their own.  But even if they didn't, they can literally create thrust without an engine.  Gravity constantly increases speed, and in a vacuum, the speed would eventually reach past the speed of light.  Or something.  I assume the whole 32 ft per second squared thing, with no wind resistance and nothing to stop them, would eventually go beyond the speed of light, particularly if you use multiple lashings.  Perhaps you can use Ettmetal to simulate lashings?  You'd probably need a frick ton of Stormlight, though.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. The closer they get to the speed of light, they'd find that the acceleration seems to be decreasing to an outside observer (it wouldn't be, rather time would be slowing down around the radiant as they approach the speed of light), even though to the radiant themself it would seem constant (someone more familiar with higher level physics than me would need to confirm that, as my education unfortunately doesn't reach the 3000 levels of the subject.) Basically to reach the speed of light by purely thrust based methods you need infinite energy, and even having access to stormlight doesn't overcome that limit.

But otherwise, you are correct that Windrunners are very well equipped for operating in space. Though based on some comments in RoW, they do need shardplate to so it, as a vacuum is apparently capable of overwhelming their healing. That or it just makes stormlight escape faster or something like that. Either way, shardplate is needed to survive.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

But otherwise, you are correct that Windrunners are very well equipped for operating in space. Though based on some comments in RoW, they do need shardplate to so it, as a vacuum is apparently capable of overwhelming their healing. That or it just makes stormlight escape faster or something like that. Either way, shardplate is needed to survive.

It's more that the healing required to sustain them without air is such that you can't cross interplanetary space with the resources they can carry.

[Humble_Knight]

I get the feeling Scadrial and Roshar are going to go FTL in different ways and that's going to cause the conflict. Scadrial is going to need mining colonies to fuel their ships, while Roshar is going to need gems and Spren, which seems harder. I think people have summarized the Scadrian approach fairly well here. My question is whether oathgates transport people FTL. 

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, Humble_Knight said:

I get the feeling Scadrial and Roshar are going to go FTL in different ways and that's going to cause the conflict. Scadrial is going to need mining colonies to fuel their ships, while Roshar is going to need gems and Spren, which seems harder. I think people have summarized the Scadrian approach fairly well here. My question is whether oathgates transport people FTL. 

Yes they do.

Spoiler

ccstat

(written in book: Do oathgates obey physical realm speed-of-light constraints?)

Brandon Sanderson

(written in book: Nope! Good question.)

We are playing fast and loose with causality.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[danex]

6th of the dusk sequel excerpt has many things relevant to this

that is all

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:54 PM, Tglassy said:

I always figured Windrunners would be a big part of space travel.  I mean, they can create Atomospheric Pressure.  So technically, they could fly off world on their own.  But even if they didn't, they can literally create thrust without an engine.  Gravity constantly increases speed, and in a vacuum, the speed would eventually reach past the speed of light.  Or something.  I assume the whole 32 ft per second squared thing, with no wind resistance and nothing to stop them, would eventually go beyond the speed of light, particularly if you use multiple lashings.  Perhaps you can use Ettmetal to simulate lashings?  You'd probably need a frick ton of Stormlight, though.

It would take a long time, though. Light is Fast.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

On 12/14/2021 at 8:31 PM, HSuperLee said:

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. The closer they get to the speed of light, they'd find that the acceleration seems to be decreasing to an outside observer (it wouldn't be, rather time would be slowing down around the radiant as they approach the speed of light), even though to the radiant themself it would seem constant (someone more familiar with higher level physics than me would need to confirm that, as my education unfortunately doesn't reach the 3000 levels of the subject.) Basically to reach the speed of light by purely thrust based methods you need infinite energy, and even having access to stormlight doesn't overcome that limit.

But otherwise, you are correct that Windrunners are very well equipped for operating in space. Though based on some comments in RoW, they do need shardplate to so it, as a vacuum is apparently capable of overwhelming their healing. That or it just makes stormlight escape faster or something like that. Either way, shardplate is needed to survive.

maybe having a constant conduit to the spiritual realm would give you infinite energy?

[Wandering Shade]

On 2/7/2022 at 0:12 PM, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

maybe having a constant conduit to the spiritual realm would give you infinite energy?

You'd have constantly refueling energy, not infinite. Those are different things. To get infinite, the Radiant would have to be able to hold infinite energy within themselves and that's not going to happen unless they're a Shard, at which point it kinda disqualifies then from being a Radiant.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Wandering Shade

[DiePie]

I've been holding the theory that while Roshar is going to dominate the cognitive realm as there are 20 portals on Roshar that allow consistent access to the cognitive realm, not even counting the Perpendicularities and Radiants who can transfer between realms. Rosharan magic is also extremely well-optimized for land-based warfare, which is most of the cognitive realm.

But that Scadrial is going to dominate Physical-realm, due to being the first to develop true FTL (era 4 was always supposed to be space-opera-y type stuff), and also the Metallic Arts having the best exploitable gimmicks for less traditional types of battles.

[Wandering Shade]

2 hours ago, DiePie said:

I've been holding the theory that while Roshar is going to dominate the cognitive realm as there are 20 portals on Roshar that allow consistent access to the cognitive realm, not even counting the Perpendicularities and Radiants who can transfer between realms. Rosharan magic is also extremely well-optimized for land-based warfare, which is most of the cognitive realm.

But that Scadrial is going to dominate Physical-realm, due to being the first to develop true FTL (era 4 was always supposed to be space-opera-y type stuff), and also the Metallic Arts having the best exploitable gimmicks for less traditional types of battles.

Yeah that sounds about right. Roshar is also gonna be good at sending singular scouts out to distance planets due to Gravitation, but I think they'll mostly come to dominate Shadesmar. Especially since Brandon has said that Shadesmar is also generally used as the term for the Cognitive Realm is general by a lot of scholars.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, DiePie said:

I've been holding the theory that while Roshar is going to dominate the cognitive realm as there are 20 portals on Roshar that allow consistent access to the cognitive realm, not even counting the Perpendicularities and Radiants who can transfer between realms. Rosharan magic is also extremely well-optimized for land-based warfare, which is most of the cognitive realm.

But that Scadrial is going to dominate Physical-realm, due to being the first to develop true FTL (era 4 was always supposed to be space-opera-y type stuff), and also the Metallic Arts having the best exploitable gimmicks for less traditional types of battles.

Roshar already has FTL in the Oathgates

[Kandrafish]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Roshar already has FTL in the Oathgates

The FTL for Roshar is far more Shadesmar/ cognitive based. Their future FTL in the physical realm (if it were based on their current FTL) would have to involve building giant Oathgates with massive spren guarding them on different worlds.

In this case, Roshar would certainly have to have some cognitive control. This would also mean that they would have to, to an extent compete against the IRE.

20 hours ago, DiePie said:

I've been holding the theory that while Roshar is going to dominate the cognitive realm as there are 20 portals on Roshar that allow consistent access to the cognitive realm, not even counting the Perpendicularities and Radiants who can transfer between realms. Rosharan magic is also extremely well-optimized for land-based warfare, which is most of the cognitive realm.

But that Scadrial is going to dominate Physical-realm, due to being the first to develop true FTL (era 4 was always supposed to be space-opera-y type stuff), and also the Metallic Arts having the best exploitable gimmicks for less traditional types of battles.

I do agree that Roshar is going to, most likely, be stronger than Scadrial in the cognitive realm. But, in order for Roshar to be dominant, they will have to out compete the IRE. Or, more likely, strike a deal with the IRE. I think that the IRE could be quite formidable, but I also feel like they have more of a peaceful, but our merchants will rob you blind sort of vibe.

 

[+Bzhydack]

15 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

The FTL for Roshar is far more Shadesmar/ cognitive based. Their future FTL in the physical realm (if it were based on their current FTL) would have to involve building giant Oathgates with massive spren guarding them on different worlds.

In this case, Roshar would certainly have to have some cognitive control. This would also mean that they would have to, to an extent compete against the IRE.

Funny, but this is exactly how I imagine Rosharan cosmic transport. As giant planetary Oathgates for whole fleets, what would give them possibility to controll over few systems, but because of limitations of their standard Lashing-based drives they would be limited to only systems with good Cognitive Realm presence. Scadrians, on the other hand, would have more classic FTL Drive on their ships, based on Compounded Steel on close ranges and Speed Bubbles on long ranges, and this would give them controll over more wide teritory.

22 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

I do agree that Roshar is going to, most likely, be stronger than Scadrial in the cognitive realm. But, in order for Roshar to be dominant, they will have to out compete the IRE. Or, more likely, strike a deal with the IRE. I think that the IRE could be quite formidable, but I also feel like they have more of a peaceful, but our merchants will rob you blind sort of vibe.

We dont even know how (or if) Scadrians are able to go into Cognitive, outside the Perpendicularity(ies?).

[Frustration]

52 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

The FTL for Roshar is far more Shadesmar/ cognitive based. Their future FTL in the physical realm (if it were based on their current FTL) would have to involve building giant Oathgates with massive spren guarding them on different worlds.

In this case, Roshar would certainly have to have some cognitive control. This would also mean that they would have to, to an extent compete against the IRE.

I do agree that Roshar is going to, most likely, be stronger than Scadrial in the cognitive realm. But, in order for Roshar to be dominant, they will have to out compete the IRE. Or, more likely, strike a deal with the IRE. I think that the IRE could be quite formidable, but I also feel like they have more of a peaceful, but our merchants will rob you blind sort of vibe.

The IRE are easily dealt with, cut off their supply of Dor, and they are nothing more than oridnary humans.

[Kandrafish]

Just now, Frustration said:

The IRE are easily dealt with, cut off their supply of Dor, and they are nothing more than oridnary humans.

Cut off Rosharan supply to Light, and they are just regular humans with swords that can cut stone...

Cut off the IRE supply of Dor, and they are just regular humans with far more experience and knowledge of Shadesmar.

I think that the IRE are a lot more canny than we might be inclined to believe based on how easily Kelsier dealt with them. Kelsier is a weird case that took them by surprise and he is also very very experienced with tricking people.

The IRE are have been around since Kelsier's time, at least, so they have been experimenting with the cognitive realm for 300 years since we last saw them AND they are likely very aware of their dependence on the Dor, so they will have ways to protect themselves and should have failsafes in place.

 

But, again, I don't think that the IRE are going to actually fight. I think that they are more likely to try to benefit from both sides of the conflict. They don't really have any reason to fight the Rosharans and this new Odium is likely aware that getting into a fight with the IRE really wouldn't benefit him. The types of help they could offer without being conquered (immediately), would outweigh any uncertainty about them, I think.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Kandrafish said:

Cut off Rosharan supply to Light, and they are just regular humans with swords that can cut stone...

And armor that gives them increadible strength and durability.

1 minute ago, Kandrafish said:

Cut off the IRE supply of Dor, and they are just regular humans with far more experience and knowledge of Shadesmar.

That would give them a better ability to survive on their own, it won't make them a military force.

2 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

I think that the IRE are a lot more canny than we might be inclined to believe based on how easily Kelsier dealt with them. Kelsier is a weird case that took them by surprise and he is also very very experienced with tricking people.

Roshar can devote far more people to dealing with the IRE than the IRE has personnel.

3 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

But, again, I don't think that the IRE are going to actually fight. I think that they are more likely to try to benefit from both sides of the conflict. They don't really have any reason to fight the Rosharans and this new Odium is likely aware that getting into a fight with the IRE really wouldn't benefit him. The types of help they could offer without being conquered (immediately), would outweigh any uncertainty about them, I think.

It's more likely that Sel would act as a much weaker third party.

[Kandrafish]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And armor that gives them increadible strength and durability.

Fair enough, but the IRE have the only in-cognitive-realm communication and more knowledge on much more, I would think. 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would give them a better ability to survive on their own, it won't make them a military force.

It doesn't. It could, however, mean that they are far more advanced. Just because they are not a military force does not mean that they don't have military capabilities or weapons. A Roman Legion would still probably lose to heavy artillery.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Roshar can devote far more people to dealing with the IRE than the IRE has personnel.

This is indisputably true.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's more likely that Sel would act as a much weaker third party.

I do not think that we can assume that the IRE and Sel can be used interchangeably.

I still think the IRE will be treated like Switzerland was in the World Wars. Both sides will use them to their advantage, but because they are based in the cognitive realm, the Rosharans will know that they will get more benefits from trading with them.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Funny, but this is exactly how I imagine Rosharan cosmic transport. As giant planetary Oathgates for whole fleets, what would give them possibility to controll over few systems, but because of limitations of their standard Lashing-based drives they would be limited to only systems with good Cognitive Realm presence. Scadrians, on the other hand, would have more classic FTL Drive on their ships, based on Compounded Steel on close ranges and Speed Bubbles on long ranges, and this would give them controll over more wide teritory.

We dont even know how (or if) Scadrians are able to go into Cognitive, outside the Perpendicularity(ies?).

Yeah, I agree. How do you think the Ghostbloods fit in, though? They seem to be a major wildcard. And I honestly have trouble fitting them into the picture. Do they count as Scadrian? Their goal is to protect it, but they have a whole bunch of other stuff going on.

Yeah, that is what I am thinking. The Scadrians would be limited to their perpendicularity(ies).

[+Bzhydack]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

And armor that gives them increadible strength and durability.

Both Shardblade and Shardplate dont manifest in Shadesmar as weapons, they are in physical Spren form.

 

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

The IRE are easily dealt with, cut off their supply of Dor, and they are nothing more than oridnary humans.

Eeee, this Light Reservoir in Lasting Integrity looks to me Selish in origin. So Sel already surpasses Roshar in Investiture transporting technology.

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Yeah, I agree. How do you think the Ghostbloods fit in, though? They seem to be a major wildcard. And I honestly have trouble fitting them into the picture. Do they count as Scadrian? Their goal is to protect it, but they have a whole bunch of other stuff going on.

Dont know. Maybe something around agresive trading company like Dutch East India Company on intergalacric scale.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Both Shardblade and Shardplate dont manifest in Shadesmar as weapons, they are in physical Spren form.

Shardblades can't as far as we know. Plate we aren't so sure about, especially as Windspren are primarily in the PR but can still form Shardplate there.

11 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Eeee, this Light Reservoir in Lasting Integrity looks to me Selish in origin. So Sel already surpasses Roshar in Investiture transporting technology.

You mean the large collection of gemstones?