Nameless

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

1,769 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Have an upvote for reading SOTD2 and coming to the same conclusion I did back in... page 34? Haha, if we're paying attention to actual Realmatics and Cosmere Lore, any actual S v R conflict would be a cold war or a stalemate, since without Radiants, Roshar can't expect to launch a successful invasion when the enemy has guns, and a Scadrian offensive would be crushed beneath the boot of Roshar's greater population, Thunderclasts, Fused, and Radiants. This is assuming that the Shards of both planets wouldn't take any actions to change the rules. In the canon lore we have so far, there's no reason to believe that they would. Thus, stalemate. But I digress.

That also takes into account minor shardworlds and other allies

5 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

As for spikes and emotional allomancy, you're better off looking at SoS and BoM for the limits on that. Wax's uncle has three spikes in him at all times, and is careful not to place a fourth, otherwise Harmony would be able to take him over. Think about that. The actual Shard of Harmony couldn't touch him without four spikes. Three is a-okay. Bleeder was a-okay with a single spike, Harmony couldn't touch her until she got a second one. (Although I might have that wrong and it was just that Harmony needed a spike that wasn't trellium.) You could say "Oh well, Harmony's intent doesn't let him interfere--" but if it was his Intent that gets in the way, why does it suddenly go away at spike #4, rather than spike #5 or #6, or #1? Kandra are different from humans in that they're more susceptible to control, is a conclusion I'm drawing from this, and the main conclusion is that if the actual Shard of Harmony (or the Shard of Ruin, who had no Intent restrictions and couldn't control Vin or Spook beyond emotional manipulation even when they had a spike in them), then there's no way a lowly Mistborn with Duralumin could accomplish it.

Trellium was preventing Harmony from seeing where Paalm was, so I don't think it's unreasonable.

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7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Let me say first thanks for your patience.

And I thank you the same.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Your right there are degrees of investiture and everyone has some degree at least so far as the spark of life. Metal opens the innate investiture beyond the spark of life for Scadrians after snapping, though as you noticed it seems to have changed Era 2, and Rosharan's connect to more than spark of life investiture by bonding a spren connecting to the Shard in specific ways.

While actively burning they Scadrians do have some investiture, but even than it is per Brandon almost none (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444/#e14328), while Rosharans have both the direct connection to spren (which still does not count for too much) and also are more invested than Scadrians when they hold stormlight.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Anti-Investiture in any other form except Roshar has not been confirmed and In the WoB you linked Brandon said one of the reasons for making Anti-Light was to balance the scales and give permanent death to Rosharan's specifically. With the right frequency and the right rythm anyone can create the anti-light even scientifically. It still obeys the laws of waves.

In the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) Brandon never talks about anti-light, only about anti-investiture, and how it is important resource for Cosmere going forward. Second, Brandon likes to stick to basic principles of real world physics (you cannot get something for nothing, action-reaction, etc.) so to how anti-particles only for some, but not all investiture (when all investiture is the same, outside of 'charge' of Shard) does not make sense at all. Ultimately, all investiture comes from Adonalsium, so if some can have anti-investiture, all kinds can.

To create anti-light you need

  1. Vacuum (Scadrial can get this)
  2. Light of the shard you want to negate (Scadrial will have great difficulty getting this)
  3. Knowledge of nature of investiture (Scadrial yet does not have this, they know very little of Realmatics compared to other worlds)
  4. Basic knowledge of waves (Scadrial has this, or should have)
  5. Intent (Scadrial can have this)

If we are considering Scadrial going to war against Roshar, they have very little opportunities to gather Storm/Void/Life-light (and no technology to draw it away and store it, only to dissipate it via chromium) so they could not make anti-light even if they had Realmatic knowledge of how to do so. They could try to steal infused gems, but depending on travel time light might dissipate before it would do anything useful.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't remember and couldn't find what I read about increased population of metalborn or the increased buring of steel. I found them while investigating one of the responses to my posts. The steel burning faster was in a trivia section I think and it is possible it has since been edited out. Though it might have been from one of the hundreds of WoB's I have read since entering this thread.

Presuming, even though I can't find it right now, that a Steel compounder twin can burn Steel faster as one of the side benefits they would have more power which would manifest as potentially more range of both sense and affect, and Iron compounder because their power is linked with their weight they also will have more potential power available for increased range and obviously need less of an anchor to do more. In both cases the majority of power would at some point go toward increased duration at relatively high force. I really don't want to argue how fast a Steel compounder could run beyond very fast or and how heavy an Iron compounder could be beyond extremely heavy both for very extended periods when necessary.

The faster burning with F-steel is in Coppermind, and the linked WoB says pretty much the same thing (with the additional information of likening it to Bendalloy bubble). I think that they would burn faster relative to other people around F-steel user, but the metal would not have increased effect (like when you are flaring) because to the F-steel user it still seems the same as he is also sped up.

Flaring steel/iron (i.e. faster burning) does not change your range or improve your metal sense, it only changes with how much force you can push, so F-steel would not help with range/sense and in my opinion also not with strenght.

F-Iron would definitely help when it comes to anchoring, the weight of allomancer is important when pushing/pulling. However, the weight of allomancer has nothing to do with range/sense, and only indirectly with power (there being more mass behind the push).

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Compounders by the nature of their nearly unlimited investiture have the potential to create perpendicularities, but as Brandon said it would take very extreme investiture to accomplish this and would probably require intent. Since We have barely seen compounders and at least one example didn't even know what a perpendicularity was or that it was a possiblility that easily explains why it hasn't been accomplished to our knowledge so far. Neither modern allomancy or feruchemy alone has this potential.

I am not sure if Intent would be needed, they do not have powers that would allow them to create perpendicularities (like Dalinar or people with Surge of Transportation). Compounders would have to brute force it by putting enough investiture in one place to forcibly pierce the realms, which is something we have never seen anyone do, as Dalinar might have used his Surges somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492), and Elsecallers/Willshapers have power explicitly designed to do this.

In addition, even the most invested object in Cosmere (Nightblood) is not invested enough to open/be perpendicularity, and I just do not think even Compounders could easily attain such levels of Investiture (as Brandon feels limitation are more interesting than strengths when it comes to magic).

Also Lord Ruler should have knowledge necessary, as remembering 'put a lot of magic fuel in one place to travel to other realms' is not that difficult and he did Ascend temporarily.

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A single lashing for 100kg person would be a half lash for a 200kg person so if a person could control their weight near infinitely they could counter any amount of Lashing. Cohesion and Adhesion would also be affected by weight changes though not as obviously as Lashings.

Gravitational acceleration is unaffected by mass of object being accelerated, so if you put a single lashing on a person, and then that person becomes twice as heavy they are still lashed with single lashing (and are still accelerated exactly the same way). It would make the lashing wear of faster, but it would still be there and it would still be equally strong.

Cohesion cannot be applied to humans, so you can only use it on terrain/objects, and there it would work fine (and in fact be very useful when setting traps for Iron compounder).

Adhesion would probably still work, as it works more on spiritual principles (and most materials would break themselves first before disrupting the lashing, per Ars Arcanum), so it would most likely just run out faster again (but maybe not, I am not sure if we have seen Full Lashing applied to heavy objects).

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I was thinking the TLR might have been able to constantly drain the well of assention and the pits by using more of his investiture. Atium as a God metal could also have been corrupted by other metals to make a whole new set of allomantic metals and binding into usability by Ruin. That was what I meant. Of course could just be another of my more extreme ideas that you guys hate.

Well of Ascension is a tool designed by Leras to help someone temporarily Ascend. It can seemingly be used only when it refills, not sooner (otherwise Lord Ruler would not have to wait full 1024 years to undo his mistakes, 1023 year and 6 months would be surely enough), so he would not be able to drain it or the pits.

Using god metals to create new metals is known and real possibility. (although for off-world metals metalborn would need some Connection to the Shard in question before using the god metal or its alloys), some WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7624 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13226 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e5905 ) There is still question of who could use such metals, if it would be only Full Feruchemists and Mistborn, or if there is a way to give ability to use these metals to others as well (after all there are no Mistings/Ferrings of these godmetal alloys, Leras had to manually modify Allomancy to allow Atium mistings).

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Vin never thought of trying emotional allomancy on Zane even though it might have worked. Look what happened to the people when TLR came out. Emotional allomance could be a very powerful weapon if used correctly. It just isn't one people think about for combat. It is also less predictable than a physical attack.

Well, Zane would have also been burning Copper so he would be immune anyway. And TLR is really not a good example, he was Fullborn and a Sliver, not your everyday compounder.

You are also forgetting that Radiant in plate would be completely shielded from emotional allomancy, so it is useful only against those on 3rd Oath. For Singers, the spren in their gemhearts would probably help override emotional manipulation because Rhythms do act on emotions as well.

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I finally read SotD 2 and from my interpretation of the 2 groups I see Scadrian's (the ones above) and Rosharan's (the individual with the seeming ShardLaser) as at a seeming deadlock in their conflict. I get the impression after thinking about it as Orca vs Shark or Wolves vs Bear in terms of contests. It seems that Rosharan's excel at single combat, but may not be a match for the combined talents of Scadrian's. Scadrian abilities may work more effectively in groups and with some exceptions are not good in individual combat, and Rosharans are most effective individually and with some exceptions are not good in groups. Of course It could be that it was an Ire that was in the armor, since we don't know much about them yet and we never saw its face. If it was a Radiant it seems like it was a Skybreaker. The conclusion I draw from this scene from SotD 2 is that Scadrian's and Rosharan's are at a near deadlock in power even if it isn't obvious to most yet.

In am not sure if I see how Scadrian abilities are more suited for work in groups, the only powers they have that can help others (discounting fabrials) are Rioting/Soothing to bolster morale, Bendalloy to help quickly reposition and Cadmiun to help wait (but its usage could be risky). Unkeyed/Unsealed metalminds would be useful when used in conjuction with a Compounder to provide various attributes as needed, so those would help.

On the other hand, Radiants can use Tension to improve non-invested armor/weapons, Cohesion+Tension to manipulate terrain (providing advantage to their allies), Gravitation for transportation, Progression to heal non-invested allies and Illumination to bolster allies (like Shallan did). This is all before taking into account fabrials or surge fabrials.

I personally see it that in far future Scadrial is more mercantile power, as they have the most advanced non-magical tech which is usable by anyone without need for special fuel. This gives them great economical power. Roshar on the other hand I think would be more martially oriented I think. As a result I think that while martially future Roshar could beat future Scadrial on their own, Scadrial's economic advantage gives them allies (or vasalls) to call upon. It would also not make much sense for Roshar to go in direct war as the economic cost would be too great.

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18 hours ago, Frustration said:

If you are refering to alloys those exist, if you mean actual corruption then no.

The only known alloy of Atium was malatium, but because it is a God metal there was the potential for 16 alloys including atium itself. Unfortunately after Hamony took over unless he makes more it is no longer an option except perhaps Marsh's supply.

16 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Have an upvote for reading SOTD2 and coming to the same conclusion I did back in... page 34? Haha, if we're paying attention to actual Realmatics and Cosmere Lore, any actual S v R conflict would be a cold war or a stalemate, since without Radiants, Roshar can't expect to launch a successful invasion when the enemy has guns, and a Scadrian offensive would be crushed beneath the boot of Roshar's greater population, Thunderclasts, Fused, and Radiants. This is assuming that the Shards of both planets wouldn't take any actions to change the rules. In the canon lore we have so far, there's no reason to believe that they would. Thus, stalemate. But I digress.

I want to address these three things. Gravity doesn't slow or stop due to fluctuations in weight. In fact the force of gravity increases when an object's mass increases. However, I do believe we know that it takes more stormlight to affect heavier objects with Gravitation, so this speculation isn't far out, although I wouldn't bet money on it. Perhaps an F-Iron user could tap their weight heavily, moving faster as they do but draining the Lashing faster. However, weight would not affect Adhesion, as we know that it functions by fooling the spiritwebs of the two objects into believing they're one object, (I can't find the wob on this, maybe it's from the text of RoW? If someone wants to factcheck me that's fine) until the stormlight runs out. I'm not sure how significant weight change can affect Adhesion, unless you compounded to weigh several tons, then you might break a chunk out of the wall you're stuck to (lol). I'm not fully sure on Cohesion, we haven't see it used on another lifeform, only for stoneshaping and the Internally-focused one the Fused have. I'm not sure I see the connection, I don't think weight would be affecting Cohesion, since that weighs on the question of whether you can affect another body with it. (And if you can, that's kinda gross.)

Yea, this is common knowledge with Godmetals, that each godmetal can be alloyed firstly with any other godmetal, and secondly with any of the base 16 metals. There's a whole thread doing the math on how insane that is for mistborn, assuming they can get access to godmetals and know the appropriate alloy percentages. However, we KNOW that TLR wasn't doing anything to the Well or the Pits, except hiding away the Atium as it was produced, and waiting for the Well to "refill". I don't know that he couldn't do anything with them, perhaps if he had Nicrosil, but, it's heavily implied that he couldn't do anything with the Well until it refilled.

As for spikes and emotional allomancy, you're better off looking at SoS and BoM for the limits on that. Wax's uncle has three spikes in him at all times, and is careful not to place a fourth, otherwise Harmony would be able to take him over. Think about that. The actual Shard of Harmony couldn't touch him without four spikes. Three is a-okay. Bleeder was a-okay with a single spike, Harmony couldn't touch her until she got a second one. (Although I might have that wrong and it was just that Harmony needed a spike that wasn't trellium.) You could say "Oh well, Harmony's intent doesn't let him interfere--" but if it was his Intent that gets in the way, why does it suddenly go away at spike #4, rather than spike #5 or #6, or #1? Kandra are different from humans in that they're more susceptible to control, is a conclusion I'm drawing from this, and the main conclusion is that if the actual Shard of Harmony (or the Shard of Ruin, who had no Intent restrictions and couldn't control Vin or Spook beyond emotional manipulation even when they had a spike in them), then there's no way a lowly Mistborn with Duralumin could accomplish it.

 

Did you notice that the armored person was very heavy. That indicates to me that what ever method he used to leave Roshar the Stormlight became very heavy. I agree that it seems like there is a stalemate. Thinking about it I believe that Scadrian Magic lends itself to group cooperation, while Rosharn magic lends itself to individual combat. For example I view it like the contest between an Orca and a great white shark. Individually the great white is virtually the perfect aquatic predator and can likely take a single orca though not everytime, but orca as a pod are the apex predator capable of hunting anything in the ocean. Between Scadrial and Roshar population may be a factor, but we really don't know how the populations stack up because we only get a limited view of each and for now Scadrians have WMD's. Explosives, machine guns and such. The Radiants might be highly resistant but those in a normal army are not.

I found the Steel causing burn rates to increase in the feruchemical description of steel. So a Steelrunner can enhance any metal they are capable of burning potentially more than even a Duralumin burn would do. I was a bit pressed for time yesterday so couldn't think of where I saw it.

If a person is heavier then it indicates that gravity is acting on them more. Gravity lashings have a mathematical correlation to weight and greater weight manipulation requires more light. A single lash can be rendered zero g by doubling a persons weight and will expire sooner. You were right I was confusing cohesion and abrasion (I think that is what you were comparing), but cohesion might also be affected by changes in gravity. A suddenly weightless person wont sink into soft stone and suddenly much more heavy person might be able to crack any stone they have sunk into and since they have the physical abilities to handle the extreme weight and that is without any metal to pull on.

Elend's solution to keeping the Atium from Ruin was to burn it, so I presume TLR could have done the same with all the metals so no investiture pools or mines could collect. Even if he couldn't have done it himself he could have fast tracked Scadrian metal arts into science that burns it to do that.

Kondra with only 2 spikes could be controlled by a sufficiently powerful emotion allomancer or group of them though in era 2 and beyond you might want a nicroburst in the team to have sufficient power. Emotional allomancy is also particularly effective against broken or unbalanced people. Not infallible. Paalm only had one spike which is why Wax shooting her with another worked. Her allomancy came from the fact it was Trellium. I am also drawing from how Lord Venture reacted to Vin Rioting and Soothing him massively.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

And I thank you the same.

While actively burning they Scadrians do have some investiture, but even than it is per Brandon almost none (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444/#e14328), while Rosharans have both the direct connection to spren (which still does not count for too much) and also are more invested than Scadrians when they hold stormlight.

In the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) Brandon never talks about anti-light, only about anti-investiture, and how it is important resource for Cosmere going forward. Second, Brandon likes to stick to basic principles of real world physics (you cannot get something for nothing, action-reaction, etc.) so to how anti-particles only for some, but not all investiture (when all investiture is the same, outside of 'charge' of Shard) does not make sense at all. Ultimately, all investiture comes from Adonalsium, so if some can have anti-investiture, all kinds can.

To create anti-light you need

  1. Vacuum (Scadrial can get this)
  2. Light of the shard you want to negate (Scadrial will have great difficulty getting this)
  3. Knowledge of nature of investiture (Scadrial yet does not have this, they know very little of Realmatics compared to other worlds)
  4. Basic knowledge of waves (Scadrial has this, or should have)
  5. Intent (Scadrial can have this)

If we are considering Scadrial going to war against Roshar, they have very little opportunities to gather Storm/Void/Life-light (and no technology to draw it away and store it, only to dissipate it via chromium) so they could not make anti-light even if they had Realmatic knowledge of how to do so. They could try to steal infused gems, but depending on travel time light might dissipate before it would do anything useful.

The faster burning with F-steel is in Coppermind, and the linked WoB says pretty much the same thing (with the additional information of likening it to Bendalloy bubble). I think that they would burn faster relative to other people around F-steel user, but the metal would not have increased effect (like when you are flaring) because to the F-steel user it still seems the same as he is also sped up.

Flaring steel/iron (i.e. faster burning) does not change your range or improve your metal sense, it only changes with how much force you can push, so F-steel would not help with range/sense and in my opinion also not with strenght.

F-Iron would definitely help when it comes to anchoring, the weight of allomancer is important when pushing/pulling. However, the weight of allomancer has nothing to do with range/sense, and only indirectly with power (there being more mass behind the push).

I am not sure if Intent would be needed, they do not have powers that would allow them to create perpendicularities (like Dalinar or people with Surge of Transportation). Compounders would have to brute force it by putting enough investiture in one place to forcibly pierce the realms, which is something we have never seen anyone do, as Dalinar might have used his Surges somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492), and Elsecallers/Willshapers have power explicitly designed to do this.

In addition, even the most invested object in Cosmere (Nightblood) is not invested enough to open/be perpendicularity, and I just do not think even Compounders could easily attain such levels of Investiture (as Brandon feels limitation are more interesting than strengths when it comes to magic).

Also Lord Ruler should have knowledge necessary, as remembering 'put a lot of magic fuel in one place to travel to other realms' is not that difficult and he did Ascend temporarily.

Gravitational acceleration is unaffected by mass of object being accelerated, so if you put a single lashing on a person, and then that person becomes twice as heavy they are still lashed with single lashing (and are still accelerated exactly the same way). It would make the lashing wear of faster, but it would still be there and it would still be equally strong.

Cohesion cannot be applied to humans, so you can only use it on terrain/objects, and there it would work fine (and in fact be very useful when setting traps for Iron compounder).

Adhesion would probably still work, as it works more on spiritual principles (and most materials would break themselves first before disrupting the lashing, per Ars Arcanum), so it would most likely just run out faster again (but maybe not, I am not sure if we have seen Full Lashing applied to heavy objects).

Well of Ascension is a tool designed by Leras to help someone temporarily Ascend. It can seemingly be used only when it refills, not sooner (otherwise Lord Ruler would not have to wait full 1024 years to undo his mistakes, 1023 year and 6 months would be surely enough), so he would not be able to drain it or the pits.

Using god metals to create new metals is known and real possibility. (although for off-world metals metalborn would need some Connection to the Shard in question before using the god metal or its alloys), some WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7624 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13226 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e5905 ) There is still question of who could use such metals, if it would be only Full Feruchemists and Mistborn, or if there is a way to give ability to use these metals to others as well (after all there are no Mistings/Ferrings of these godmetal alloys, Leras had to manually modify Allomancy to allow Atium mistings).

Well, Zane would have also been burning Copper so he would be immune anyway. And TLR is really not a good example, he was Fullborn and a Sliver, not your everyday compounder.

You are also forgetting that Radiant in plate would be completely shielded from emotional allomancy, so it is useful only against those on 3rd Oath. For Singers, the spren in their gemhearts would probably help override emotional manipulation because Rhythms do act on emotions as well.

In am not sure if I see how Scadrian abilities are more suited for work in groups, the only powers they have that can help others (discounting fabrials) are Rioting/Soothing to bolster morale, Bendalloy to help quickly reposition and Cadmiun to help wait (but its usage could be risky). Unkeyed/Unsealed metalminds would be useful when used in conjuction with a Compounder to provide various attributes as needed, so those would help.

On the other hand, Radiants can use Tension to improve non-invested armor/weapons, Cohesion+Tension to manipulate terrain (providing advantage to their allies), Gravitation for transportation, Progression to heal non-invested allies and Illumination to bolster allies (like Shallan did). This is all before taking into account fabrials or surge fabrials.

I personally see it that in far future Scadrial is more mercantile power, as they have the most advanced non-magical tech which is usable by anyone without need for special fuel. This gives them great economical power. Roshar on the other hand I think would be more martially oriented I think. As a result I think that while martially future Roshar could beat future Scadrial on their own, Scadrial's economic advantage gives them allies (or vasalls) to call upon. It would also not make much sense for Roshar to go in direct war as the economic cost would be too great.

Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate.

F-steel effect on allomancy would be like Duralumin and Vin's range when burning Duralumin was greater as shown with her steel jump across the valley. When she burned both D&S she could detect more metal at a distance. With more power comes more range. The limit would be a sufficient anchor to use that additional pushing power and the physical strain on the body. Vin had pewter to counter some of that strain.

I did say the wall would probably break because of the increased weight though if the person were patient they might run the stormlight out faster.

I never said it would be easy for a compounder to open a perpendicularity only potentially possible. Nightblood might become satiated before consuming all the investiture from a compounder. We only have 2 examples of compounders, TLR and Miles. TLR extended his life 1,000 years and could dominate whole crowds of thousands with just his presence. Both he and Miles were all but un-killable capable of even surviving decapitation. TLR may not have even tried to open a Perpendicularity because his purpose was to protect the world from Ruin at his core.

Other group enhancing metal arts are F-copper, F-zinc, Bronze, Tin, Chromium, Nicrosil, F-Duralumin, Electrum, and F-gold, and compounds of most of these. Nicrosil compounders might be particularly useful in a team. Potentially they could store any investiture based attack against them and compound it. The could also enhance any team members powers, and finally over charge any enemy's powers to overwhelm and drain them. They might almost be like Peter from Heroes. Imagine if an edgedancer healed them and they stored some of that to compound and use later. Of course even Terrismen aren't sure how Nicrosil works so that is me projecting possibilities.

I also view Scadrian's like the Federation and Rosharan's like the Klingon.

No I didn't forget that Shardplate blocks emotional allomancy I staged it in the CR where there are no shards even for upper oaths. I am not sure how well fabrials would work their either. Medallions would work since they don't rely on Spren. I think Hemalurgy even though it is a metal art is a bad idea. Though hemalurgy might end up being the Scadrian cyborg equivalent or used in conjunction with being a cyborg.

I see many Rosharan powers being being used to their utmost to be hazardous to any allies on the field. Division used to the extreme could hurt their individual soldiers as much as the enemy for example. In addition Rosharan's honor encourages duels, champions, and individual combat, where most of what we have seen from Scadrial is crews, partners, and gangs working together. I think it is almost a mindset thing as much as a power thing. Yes there are powers from both that work better in groups and or individually, but I think their cultural mindsets incline them one way or the other. All the Rosharan powers you mentioned seem to be used individually, one on one or like with gravitation in small groups. We also haven't seen many Savant effects, but some of the most severe were a soulcaster turning to smoke or vines growing out of another one. Of course the savant affect with Radiants and Metalborn takes longer.

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1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

The only known alloy of Atium was malatium, but because it is a God metal there was the potential for 16 alloys including atium itself. Unfortunately after Hamony took over unless he makes more it is no longer an option except perhaps Marsh's supply.

All Atium alloys have either a temporal or mental effect.

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Did you notice that the armored person was very heavy. That indicates to me that what ever method he used to leave Roshar the Stormlight became very heavy.

When you have control of gravity heaviness becomes reletive, and besides, plate weighs 2,000 pounds on Roshar. And aside from that nothing in the reading actually indicates he's heavier than to be excpeted

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I agree that it seems like there is a stalemate. Thinking about it I believe that Scadrian Magic lends itself to group cooperation, while Rosharn magic lends itself to individual combat. For example I view it like the contest between an Orca and a great white shark. Individually the great white is virtually the perfect aquatic predator and can likely take a single orca though not everytime, but orca as a pod are the apex predator capable of hunting anything in the ocean. Between Scadrial and Roshar population may be a factor, but we really don't know how the populations stack up because we only get a limited view of each and for now Scadrians have WMD's. Explosives, machine guns and such. The Radiants might be highly resistant but those in a normal army are not.

Scadrial is the least populated of the big four with Roshar being number 2

Spoiler

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If a person is heavier then it indicates that gravity is acting on them more. Gravity lashings have a mathematical correlation to weight and greater weight manipulation requires more light. A single lash can be rendered zero g by doubling a persons weight and will expire sooner. You were right I was confusing cohesion and abrasion (I think that is what you were comparing), but cohesion might also be affected by changes in gravity. A suddenly weightless person wont sink into soft stone and suddenly much more heavy person might be able to crack any stone they have sunk into and since they have the physical abilities to handle the extreme weight and that is without any metal to pull on.

Gravitation works by manipulatting connections, not by applying force, so doubling your weight won't do anything.

23 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Elend's solution to keeping the Atium from Ruin was to burn it, so I presume TLR could have done the same with all the metals so no investiture pools or mines could collect. Even if he couldn't have done it himself he could have fast tracked Scadrian metal arts into science that burns it to do that.

That would be like trying to drain the ocean wiht a bucket.

28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate.

Alluminum is inert not a counter, aluminum weapons would kill them just as easily as they would a bloodmaker. Anti-light for scadrial would be anti-mists.

34 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I never said it would be easy for a compounder to open a perpendicularity only potentially possible. Nightblood might become satiated before consuming all the investiture from a compounder. We only have 2 examples of compounders, TLR and Miles. TLR extended his life 1,000 years and could dominate whole crowds of thousands with just his presence. Both he and Miles were all but un-killable capable of even surviving decapitation. TLR may not have even tried to open a Perpendicularity because his purpose was to protect the world from Ruin at his core.

While theoretically possible something that takes several hundred years to be preformed one time isn't a significant enough edge to count for anything.

35 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Other group enhancing metal arts are F-copper, F-zinc, Bronze, Tin, Chromium, Nicrosil, F-Duralumin, Electrum, and F-gold, and compounds of most of these. Nicrosil compounders might be particularly useful in a team. Potentially they could store any investiture based attack against them and compound it. The could also enhance any team members powers, and finally over charge any enemy's powers to overwhelm and drain them. They might almost be like Peter from Heroes. Imagine if an edgedancer healed them and they stored some of that to compound and use later. Of course even Terrismen aren't sure how Nicrosil works so that is me projecting possibilities.

They could only store their investiture.

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate.

That's assuming Scadrial has the resources and ability to advance that far in Tech while they're so busy trying to survive against Roshar that has about as many combined (Radiants + Fused) magic users as they do, and a far larger population. Think about that--nearly every misting and Ferring matched up against a Radiant or Fused. Even if their magic users out-numbered Roshar 2-to-1... I'd put money on the dudes with insta-kill swords, super-healing and super-armor any day.

Lasers with an anti-tone would need to pass through the Fused to hit the gemheart, and would have to be extremely broad to harm the spren of a Radiant. We don't know how suspectible spren are to anti-light when they're in blade form, so that's a bit of guesswork. I'm not saying impossible--Era 3 and 4 Scad could pull it off with difficultly--but if you threw Era 2 Scad into an interplanetary war, they wouldn't be relying on physics like that for their victory/survival.

The thing with aluminum that's deadly for Radiants is that you can't heal around it. A bullet embedded in a Radiant can't be pushed out and healed up with light--which makes it just as deadly as a normal bullet would be for a normal person, but if the Aluminum goes out the other end, it's just another bullet wound that light will heal up. Similarly if you stabbed a Fused with an aluminum spear and left the spearhead in them, they'd be going straight to Braize. I... can't say whether piercing a Fused's Gemheart with aluminum would kill them, or if an Aluminum sword could hurt a spren. Probably not? Otherwise why would Brandon introduce anti-Light "so that spren and Fused had a way to die"? I can't rule it out completely though. Maybe someone else can.

Shardplate absolutely would protect against Aluminum just like everything else, because the plate, when summoned, is made from physical metal. 


Also note that Roshar has a WMD too. While the Scadrians have Ettmetal, Rosharan Anti-Light carries just as much explosive power, (actually more, per ounce, but they can't field quite as much due to gemstone limitations) and when anti-stormlight is discovered, they'll have easily-producible anti-light grenades that any soldier can carry, that brings devastation on a similar level to Dustbringers. If they do discover some gigantic gemstones or perhaps (In Era 4 times) make some, that could be a threat to a city like Elendel.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Did you notice that the armored person was very heavy. That indicates to me that what ever method he used to leave Roshar the Stormlight became very heavy. I agree that it seems like there is a stalemate. Thinking about it I believe that Scadrian Magic lends itself to group cooperation, while Rosharn magic lends itself to individual combat. For example I view it like the contest between an Orca and a great white shark. Individually the great white is virtually the perfect aquatic predator and can likely take a single orca though not everytime, but orca as a pod are the apex predator capable of hunting anything in the ocean. Between Scadrial and Roshar population may be a factor, but we really don't know how the populations stack up because we only get a limited view of each and for now Scadrians have WMD's. Explosives, machine guns and such. The Radiants might be highly resistant but those in a normal army are not.

Armored person in SotD 2 was heavy because they were wearing shardplate, that thing weighs at ~650 kg in Roshar's weaker gravity (per tWoK), on world with standard gravity it would weigh nearly a ton. So no need for stormlight to become heavy .

You are forgetting that unlike any metalborn, Radiants actually fought in full scale wars for hundreds of years, maybe a millenium. And we have yet to actually see the most martially oriented order (Stonewards) fight in groups. Metalborn (mostly misting really) are trained for small group fights at best, Radiants are trained for fighting large scale battles (so not really individual fights) and wars of extermination.

Roshar has much larger population than Scadrial, Scadrial is the least populated of the major Shardworlds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466), it is entirely possible that for each Metalborn you have at least Regal or Fused, and for each Twinborn you have more than 1 Radiant (assuming all spren bonded).

And Roshar also has WMDs (if they produce enough anti-light), and equivalent of bunker busters (kinetic weaponry driven by surge of gravitation).

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I found the Steel causing burn rates to increase in the feruchemical description of steel. So a Steelrunner can enhance any metal they are capable of burning potentially more than even a Duralumin burn would do. I was a bit pressed for time yesterday so couldn't think of where I saw it.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

F-steel effect on allomancy would be like Duralumin and Vin's range when burning Duralumin was greater as shown with her steel jump across the valley. When she burned both D&S she could detect more metal at a distance. With more power comes more range. The limit would be a sufficient anchor to use that additional pushing power and the physical strain on the body. Vin had pewter to counter some of that strain.

I will no longer argue whether F-steel actually makes burning effect stronger, I do not think either of us will convince the other. I still maintain that it burns faster only relative to people around them (akin to people burning metals inside Bendalloy bubble) and since B-bubbles do not make people inside stronger, neither will F-steel.

However, duralumin most definitely does not increase range. I am in the middle of my re-read of Mistborn (currently in middle of HoA), and in the jump across valley she merely pushed at something nearby with duralumin enhanced push (so no need for greater range) and in all other of her uses she never notes that she affects metal farther away then usual, her pushes are just stronger and the range on which she can affect metals remains unchanged.

Also Vin states that without duralumin+pewter, her duralumin-pushes/pulls would crush her, so even if F-steel enhances pushes/pulls the user would crush themselves.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If a person is heavier then it indicates that gravity is acting on them more. Gravity lashings have a mathematical correlation to weight and greater weight manipulation requires more light. A single lash can be rendered zero g by doubling a persons weight and will expire sooner. You were right I was confusing cohesion and abrasion (I think that is what you were comparing), but cohesion might also be affected by changes in gravity. A suddenly weightless person wont sink into soft stone and suddenly much more heavy person might be able to crack any stone they have sunk into and since they have the physical abilities to handle the extreme weight and that is without any metal to pull on.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I did say the wall would probably break because of the increased weight though if the person were patient they might run the stormlight out faster.

It is more complicated than that, however gravitational acceleration on object is independent off objects mass, so increased weight alone would do nothing to the lashing. Gravitational lashings have no correlation to weight of object (outside of consuming more stormlight to sustain), per WoB(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14664) lashing overrides gravity and the object is then pulled in direction of fictitious supermassive object (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14101). So since gravitational acceleration does not depend on mass, any object no matter how heavy, will experience the same acceleration when lashed.

Wax or Sazed are still affected by gravity, so to have F-iron user not be affected by lashings just because they increase mass does not make sense. It is possible that in future Brandon will reveal that these two magic system interact in some non-trivial way, however so far there is literally zero evidence for that. F-iron makes you heavier, Lashing changes the direction you fall in, that is it.

I would also point out that F-iron users do not (or should not) have unlimited increased ability to handle their increased mass, there are points were their tapped mass is too great for them to support it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569). In WoA when Sazed is holding the gate, he needs to tap F-pewter to remain standing because his muscles are not strong enough to handle the increased mass from F-iron (WoA, pg. 679). However it seems that Brandon either forgot that, or that in Era 2 feruchemy works a bit differently because Wax does not seem to be limited like that, or it is possible that Wax never really tapped that much while standing for it to be a problem. However, since per WoA it seems that limit on tapping mass before being crushed into ground is lower than the strength of frozen ground, I think Iron compounder would crush themselves before they would crack stone.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Elend's solution to keeping the Atium from Ruin was to burn it, so I presume TLR could have done the same with all the metals so no investiture pools or mines could collect. Even if he couldn't have done it himself he could have fast tracked Scadrian metal arts into science that burns it to do that.

Burning of atium was in order to temporarily slightly weaken Ruin (that investiture eventually returns to Ruin in usable form, it might just take some time) so that Preservation could destroy Ruin (or Ruin's vessel more specifcally) without being destroyed first.

Also, power (therefore investiture) of Shard is infinite (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8702), nothing TLR could do would prevent Well of Ascension from refilling, or Atium from condensating (destroying the pits would just temporarily halt it).

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Kondra with only 2 spikes could be controlled by a sufficiently powerful emotion allomancer or group of them though in era 2 and beyond you might want a nicroburst in the team to have sufficient power. Emotional allomancy is also particularly effective against broken or unbalanced people. Not infallible. Paalm only had one spike which is why Wax shooting her with another worked. Her allomancy came from the fact it was Trellium. I am also drawing from how Lord Venture reacted to Vin Rioting and Soothing him massively.

To control Kandra in era 2 you would definitely need a team of allomancers, even in Era 1 it required duralumin. Using nicroburst is also a valid option.

Lord Venture was also drugged up narcissist and paranoiac and even then all duralumin+soothing did was make him stumble. Sure it scared him because he did not expect her to be so powerful, but it did not really seem like something debilitating (it was just a short burst after all).

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate.

Aluminum is investiture-inert, not investiture negating, that is only its internal Allomantic effect. At best it would prevent invested healing, but it might not be enough to kill them as aluminum weapon in wound is not enough to prevent Return (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364) and for extreme healing spiritual aspect takes over (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535) so the wound would remain but the person might stay alive despite it (possibly crippled however).

Also, Fused use aluminum to be able to parry shardblades, not to penetrate Shardplate. Shardplate is still quite thick physical armor, the only advantage aluminum would have is that it would ignore some magical properties, but not the physical ones.

And again on the light thing, the only thing Scadrial can make are ordinary lasers, those are not made of Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight, so it will not annihilate it. Gaseous investiture may give off light (photons) but it is not made of them. So Scadrial cannot create antilight, not without getting their hands on some Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight first. To sum up

  1. Stormlight/Whateverlight = pure gaseous investiture of a Shard, like mists -> not made of photons. It has anti-particle/anti-investiture in the form of anti-light, which so far requires the *-light you want to negate to create. From Radiants only Bondsmiths can produce whateverlight.
  2. Physical light = bunch of photons. Boring, they are their own antiparticle and do not even annihilate one another (they do not directly interact at all actually). Even non-Bondsmith Radiants can create it.
11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I never said it would be easy for a compounder to open a perpendicularity only potentially possible. Nightblood might become satiated before consuming all the investiture from a compounder. We only have 2 examples of compounders, TLR and Miles. TLR extended his life 1,000 years and could dominate whole crowds of thousands with just his presence. Both he and Miles were all but un-killable capable of even surviving decapitation. TLR may not have even tried to open a Perpendicularity because his purpose was to protect the world from Ruin at his core.

You said the could use it counter Radiants escaping to Cognitive realm, however unless they can do it as cheaply and easily as Radiants, Radiant could simply hop back to Physical and leave Compounder stranded. So if it is not easy as you are saying now, it is not really viable combat strategy.

Unless you are seriously saying that compounder could be more invested than a Vessel, than Nightblood would not be satiated after eating compounder. Eating Vessel did not make him enter food coma (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14511).

TLR was also nearing limit of what atium compounding could do, so he would die soon afterwards anyway. And anyone with enough Stormlight (so probably near perpendicularity or inside Highstorm) could survive decapitation as well.

TLR also might not have been capable of opening perpendicularity, I think that is much simpler explanation.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Other group enhancing metal arts are F-copper, F-zinc, Bronze, Tin, Chromium, Nicrosil, F-Duralumin, Electrum, and F-gold, and compounds of most of these. Nicrosil compounders might be particularly useful in a team. Potentially they could store any investiture based attack against them and compound it. The could also enhance any team members powers, and finally over charge any enemy's powers to overwhelm and drain them. They might almost be like Peter from Heroes. Imagine if an edgedancer healed them and they stored some of that to compound and use later. Of course even Terrismen aren't sure how Nicrosil works so that is me projecting possibilities.

Without fabrials all of Feruchemy is internal, so not group enhancing. The powers are not group enhancing, you can just make a tool and give it to every individual group member, that is no different from sharing food rations or oxygen. And even if you had unsealed metalminds for all these metals you would also need at least one compounder for each so that you would not run out fast.

F-Nicrosil stores internal investiture, not external investiture attacks. Even storing your own internal kinetic investiture is not confirmed, so storing direct investiture attacks is quite far from what we know. And you can easily work around it, just use Division on their clothing/surrounding or Soulcasting on air around them, they cannot take that investiture.

A-nicrosil would be good for team, I forgot about it. For offense, well you need to touch your opponent first, and your opponent might have armor which makes your power useless. And they have sword that is over 2 meters long, and can become a lance over 4 meters long, good luck getting through that without F-steel.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No I didn't forget that Shardplate blocks emotional allomancy I staged it in the CR where there are no shards even for upper oaths. I am not sure how well fabrials would work their either. Medallions would work since they don't rely on Spren. I think Hemalurgy even though it is a metal art is a bad idea. Though hemalurgy might end up being the Scadrian cyborg equivalent or used in conjunction with being a cyborg.

Surges work, and Stormlight trapped in gems still remains there. I think basic fabrials would remain working, but Surge fabrials would not. In fact since Navani seems surprised that in Cognitive realm Surge fabrials manifest as 'frozen' spren, suggesting that ordinary fabrials do not look that way. Shards would not manifest, so that is a disadvantage to Radiant, but they can still use Stormlight to manifest items, something Metalborn could not do.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I see many Rosharan powers being being used to their utmost to be hazardous to any allies on the field. Division used to the extreme could hurt their individual soldiers as much as the enemy for example. In addition Rosharan's honor encourages duels, champions, and individual combat, where most of what we have seen from Scadrial is crews, partners, and gangs working together. I think it is almost a mindset thing as much as a power thing. Yes there are powers from both that work better in groups and or individually, but I think their cultural mindsets incline them one way or the other. All the Rosharan powers you mentioned seem to be used individually, one on one or like with gravitation in small groups. We also haven't seen many Savant effects, but some of the most severe were a soulcaster turning to smoke or vines growing out of another one. Of course the savant affect with Radiants and Metalborn takes longer.

That is why I did not suggest using Division, but other more defensive Surges (Cohesion, Tension, Illumination and Progression all of which can be used to help others without need for fabrials, unlike Scadrial applications which require unsealed metalminds to be group usable). Soulcasting is also very useful surge for cooperating, you can heal poisoning, provide food and basic materials.

The only Order that seems to favor honorable fights are Windrunners (remember that Jasnah directly advocated for genocide), and even then only when enemy is willing to play by the same rules. So unless Metalborn agreed to fight duel style (like Honorable Ones),  no duels would take place.

If we go by what we see in books (in both cooperation and in combat) then Scadrial does not come off good, in Era 1 Mistborn rarely fight anyone on their level (other Mistborn, Inquisitors) and never fight in large battles in groups with other magic users (end of HoA notwithstanding). By Era 2 they are not really fighting a war at all, only in policing skirmishes, so again no protracted battles. Contrast with Roshar, where we see Shardbearers being used intelligently to break enemy lines (so used tactically), Edgedancers heal wounded in the middle of battle and by RoW Radiants are fighting in groups using group tactics (unless challenged by Honorable ones).

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21 hours ago, The Technovore said:

That's assuming Scadrial has the resources and ability to advance that far in Tech while they're so busy trying to survive against Roshar that has about as many combined (Radiants + Fused) magic users as they do, and a far larger population. Think about that--nearly every misting and Ferring matched up against a Radiant or Fused. Even if their magic users out-numbered Roshar 2-to-1... I'd put money on the dudes with insta-kill swords, super-healing and super-armor any day.

Lasers with an anti-tone would need to pass through the Fused to hit the gemheart, and would have to be extremely broad to harm the spren of a Radiant. We don't know how suspectible spren are to anti-light when they're in blade form, so that's a bit of guesswork. I'm not saying impossible--Era 3 and 4 Scad could pull it off with difficultly--but if you threw Era 2 Scad into an interplanetary war, they wouldn't be relying on physics like that for their victory/survival.

The thing with aluminum that's deadly for Radiants is that you can't heal around it. A bullet embedded in a Radiant can't be pushed out and healed up with light--which makes it just as deadly as a normal bullet would be for a normal person, but if the Aluminum goes out the other end, it's just another bullet wound that light will heal up. Similarly if you stabbed a Fused with an aluminum spear and left the spearhead in them, they'd be going straight to Braize. I... can't say whether piercing a Fused's Gemheart with aluminum would kill them, or if an Aluminum sword could hurt a spren. Probably not? Otherwise why would Brandon introduce anti-Light "so that spren and Fused had a way to die"? I can't rule it out completely though. Maybe someone else can.

Shardplate absolutely would protect against Aluminum just like everything else, because the plate, when summoned, is made from physical metal. 


Also note that Roshar has a WMD too. While the Scadrians have Ettmetal, Rosharan Anti-Light carries just as much explosive power, (actually more, per ounce, but they can't field quite as much due to gemstone limitations) and when anti-stormlight is discovered, they'll have easily-producible anti-light grenades that any soldier can carry, that brings devastation on a similar level to Dustbringers. If they do discover some gigantic gemstones or perhaps (In Era 4 times) make some, that could be a threat to a city like Elendel.

For now Scadrial has weapons which would decimate Rosharn troops en mass and affect most mid-level and lower Radiants so even with a population advantage it might not be enough for Roshar. Also for now Rosharan Magic is restricted to Roshar so Radiants and Fused are only a threat there. We know that will change but don't know what will enable that ability to leave.

No Roshar doesn't really have grenades. What they have are 2 lab accidents where as soon as they intentionally tried to combine voidlight and anti-voidlight in a gem. This is not something they are able to weaponize into a grenade at this time, and I suspect we wont ever see. What I predict we will see is Scadrian's using anti-light weapons against Rosharans at some point in the future. I don't dispute the potentially destructive force of light anti-light explosive, just the practicality of creating or using one without blowing yourself up. Brandon has been quoted saying that Aluminum is scientific anti-investiture tech and Anti-light is designed specifically to give the kill factor for Rosharan magic. There may be no analog to anti-light in any other system because no other system is wave based that we know of.

both you and @therunner have both said that Fused will come back if killed by Aluminum and that is true, but in virtually every part of the Cosmere it has been shown to counter investiture. Fused use it even though they have been faced with high oath Radiants at some point of each conflict so it must be effective against Radiants even ones potentially in Shards. It seems to disrupt all forms of investiture except storing and tapping Identity for some reason. That disruptive influence is even used by Navani.

Shardplate is made of spren made physical, and lesser spren have been shown to have an aversion to Aluminum so there is a small possibility that aluminum weapons might affect it especially since Shard armored Radiants are not new and yet Fused still use aluminum weapons.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Armored person in SotD 2 was heavy because they were wearing shardplate, that thing weighs at ~650 kg in Roshar's weaker gravity (per tWoK), on world with standard gravity it would weigh nearly a ton. So no need for stormlight to become heavy .

You are forgetting that unlike any metalborn, Radiants actually fought in full scale wars for hundreds of years, maybe a millenium. And we have yet to actually see the most martially oriented order (Stonewards) fight in groups. Metalborn (mostly misting really) are trained for small group fights at best, Radiants are trained for fighting large scale battles (so not really individual fights) and wars of extermination.

Roshar has much larger population than Scadrial, Scadrial is the least populated of the major Shardworlds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466), it is entirely possible that for each Metalborn you have at least Regal or Fused, and for each Twinborn you have more than 1 Radiant (assuming all spren bonded).

And Roshar also has WMDs (if they produce enough anti-light), and equivalent of bunker busters (kinetic weaponry driven by surge of gravitation).

I will no longer argue whether F-steel actually makes burning effect stronger, I do not think either of us will convince the other. I still maintain that it burns faster only relative to people around them (akin to people burning metals inside Bendalloy bubble) and since B-bubbles do not make people inside stronger, neither will F-steel.

However, duralumin most definitely does not increase range. I am in the middle of my re-read of Mistborn (currently in middle of HoA), and in the jump across valley she merely pushed at something nearby with duralumin enhanced push (so no need for greater range) and in all other of her uses she never notes that she affects metal farther away then usual, her pushes are just stronger and the range on which she can affect metals remains unchanged.

Also Vin states that without duralumin+pewter, her duralumin-pushes/pulls would crush her, so even if F-steel enhances pushes/pulls the user would crush themselves.

It is more complicated than that, however gravitational acceleration on object is independent off objects mass, so increased weight alone would do nothing to the lashing. Gravitational lashings have no correlation to weight of object (outside of consuming more stormlight to sustain), per WoB(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14664) lashing overrides gravity and the object is then pulled in direction of fictitious supermassive object (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14101). So since gravitational acceleration does not depend on mass, any object no matter how heavy, will experience the same acceleration when lashed.

Wax or Sazed are still affected by gravity, so to have F-iron user not be affected by lashings just because they increase mass does not make sense. It is possible that in future Brandon will reveal that these two magic system interact in some non-trivial way, however so far there is literally zero evidence for that. F-iron makes you heavier, Lashing changes the direction you fall in, that is it.

I would also point out that F-iron users do not (or should not) have unlimited increased ability to handle their increased mass, there are points were their tapped mass is too great for them to support it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569). In WoA when Sazed is holding the gate, he needs to tap F-pewter to remain standing because his muscles are not strong enough to handle the increased mass from F-iron (WoA, pg. 679). However it seems that Brandon either forgot that, or that in Era 2 feruchemy works a bit differently because Wax does not seem to be limited like that, or it is possible that Wax never really tapped that much while standing for it to be a problem. However, since per WoA it seems that limit on tapping mass before being crushed into ground is lower than the strength of frozen ground, I think Iron compounder would crush themselves before they would crack stone.

Burning of atium was in order to temporarily slightly weaken Ruin (that investiture eventually returns to Ruin in usable form, it might just take some time) so that Preservation could destroy Ruin (or Ruin's vessel more specifcally) without being destroyed first.

Also, power (therefore investiture) of Shard is infinite (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8702), nothing TLR could do would prevent Well of Ascension from refilling, or Atium from condensating (destroying the pits would just temporarily halt it).

To control Kandra in era 2 you would definitely need a team of allomancers, even in Era 1 it required duralumin. Using nicroburst is also a valid option.

Lord Venture was also drugged up narcissist and paranoiac and even then all duralumin+soothing did was make him stumble. Sure it scared him because he did not expect her to be so powerful, but it did not really seem like something debilitating (it was just a short burst after all).

Aluminum is investiture-inert, not investiture negating, that is only its internal Allomantic effect. At best it would prevent invested healing, but it might not be enough to kill them as aluminum weapon in wound is not enough to prevent Return (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364) and for extreme healing spiritual aspect takes over (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535) so the wound would remain but the person might stay alive despite it (possibly crippled however).

Also, Fused use aluminum to be able to parry shardblades, not to penetrate Shardplate. Shardplate is still quite thick physical armor, the only advantage aluminum would have is that it would ignore some magical properties, but not the physical ones.

And again on the light thing, the only thing Scadrial can make are ordinary lasers, those are not made of Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight, so it will not annihilate it. Gaseous investiture may give off light (photons) but it is not made of them. So Scadrial cannot create antilight, not without getting their hands on some Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight first. To sum up

  1. Stormlight/Whateverlight = pure gaseous investiture of a Shard, like mists -> not made of photons. It has anti-particle/anti-investiture in the form of anti-light, which so far requires the *-light you want to negate to create. From Radiants only Bondsmiths can produce whateverlight.
  2. Physical light = bunch of photons. Boring, they are their own antiparticle and do not even annihilate one another (they do not directly interact at all actually). Even non-Bondsmith Radiants can create it.

You said the could use it counter Radiants escaping to Cognitive realm, however unless they can do it as cheaply and easily as Radiants, Radiant could simply hop back to Physical and leave Compounder stranded. So if it is not easy as you are saying now, it is not really viable combat strategy.

Unless you are seriously saying that compounder could be more invested than a Vessel, than Nightblood would not be satiated after eating compounder. Eating Vessel did not make him enter food coma (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14511).

TLR was also nearing limit of what atium compounding could do, so he would die soon afterwards anyway. And anyone with enough Stormlight (so probably near perpendicularity or inside Highstorm) could survive decapitation as well.

TLR also might not have been capable of opening perpendicularity, I think that is much simpler explanation.

Without fabrials all of Feruchemy is internal, so not group enhancing. The powers are not group enhancing, you can just make a tool and give it to every individual group member, that is no different from sharing food rations or oxygen. And even if you had unsealed metalminds for all these metals you would also need at least one compounder for each so that you would not run out fast.

F-Nicrosil stores internal investiture, not external investiture attacks. Even storing your own internal kinetic investiture is not confirmed, so storing direct investiture attacks is quite far from what we know. And you can easily work around it, just use Division on their clothing/surrounding or Soulcasting on air around them, they cannot take that investiture.

A-nicrosil would be good for team, I forgot about it. For offense, well you need to touch your opponent first, and your opponent might have armor which makes your power useless. And they have sword that is over 2 meters long, and can become a lance over 4 meters long, good luck getting through that without F-steel.

Surges work, and Stormlight trapped in gems still remains there. I think basic fabrials would remain working, but Surge fabrials would not. In fact since Navani seems surprised that in Cognitive realm Surge fabrials manifest as 'frozen' spren, suggesting that ordinary fabrials do not look that way. Shards would not manifest, so that is a disadvantage to Radiant, but they can still use Stormlight to manifest items, something Metalborn could not do.

That is why I did not suggest using Division, but other more defensive Surges (Cohesion, Tension, Illumination and Progression all of which can be used to help others without need for fabrials, unlike Scadrial applications which require unsealed metalminds to be group usable). Soulcasting is also very useful surge for cooperating, you can heal poisoning, provide food and basic materials.

The only Order that seems to favor honorable fights are Windrunners (remember that Jasnah directly advocated for genocide), and even then only when enemy is willing to play by the same rules. So unless Metalborn agreed to fight duel style (like Honorable Ones),  no duels would take place.

If we go by what we see in books (in both cooperation and in combat) then Scadrial does not come off good, in Era 1 Mistborn rarely fight anyone on their level (other Mistborn, Inquisitors) and never fight in large battles in groups with other magic users (end of HoA notwithstanding). By Era 2 they are not really fighting a war at all, only in policing skirmishes, so again no protracted battles. Contrast with Roshar, where we see Shardbearers being used intelligently to break enemy lines (so used tactically), Edgedancers heal wounded in the middle of battle and by RoW Radiants are fighting in groups using group tactics (unless challenged by Honorable ones).

I am sorry but Rosharan tactics are medieval so even though they have had wars the pike line is entirely inadequate to use against more modern weapons and tactics. The more modern weapons and tactics from Scadrial are well beyond Rosharan experience. Even most Windrunners and Skybreakers could be wiped out by flack shells especially if they group together.

We will just need to agree to disagree that stormlight can be countered by the right frequency of light. Navani's experiments to create anti-light that succeeded were into wave mechanics not fluid mechanics.

I still think weight control will have an effect on gravity lashings, but I concede it might not have the effect I thought it did.

Not sure this WoB supports your point (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569) given that Wax says that his physical abilities seem to increase to compensate for increased weight as shown by some of the feats he accomplishes. Oh and Sazed needed the extra weight to brace his pewter strength which also comes with extra mass. That makes me wonder if he could have stored some of that increased weight from his tapped strength into his Iron mind for later use. He might then be able to store some of the increased speed in steel from the interaction of greater strength and less weight. Of course he was no warrior so that may be why he never thought of that.

Compounding as described by Brandon allows exponential increases of investiture with nearly unlimited potential. Exponential increased quickly reach extreme quantities. In the case of the Cosmere the increase in investiture is stated as 10x. So 1:10, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1k:10k, 10k:100k, 100k:1M. In six compoundings you have 1Mx more investiture than you started with and that would take seconds to minutes to accomplish. How much time do you think it would take at that rate to pierce the Realms? Once you are near that degree of investiture maintaining it would be easy. I give it a day of compounding effort at most.

No one knows how Nicrosil-F works so my guess based on what we do know is as good as any. Again we will just need to agree to disagree because neither of us can prove the other wrong at this time. I am going on the assumption that any investiture of any kind applied to a Soulbearer becomes personal investiture. I view Soulbearers (to use blood terminology) as universal Receivers and Thug's as nearly universal donors of investiture. Pewter seems to be able to donate abilities to nearly all kinds of metal minds.

Sparkers paired with almost any allomancy that increases their perception and with pewter would enable a highly capable individual. The increased mental speed would enable quick evaluation and increased perception increased information to base responses on. With pewter where the person has enhances all around physical abilities you get nearly unbeatable martial artist/warrior and pewter during less active periods can be used to fill the metal mind for when it is needed. Steel would also create a multi useful pair. With bendalloy they might be able to accurately fire from a time bubble.

There are many other less obvious metal combinations that would provide support advantages in an actual system clash. I still view Nicrosil compounders like the Peter from Heroes of the Cosmere. Expose them to any investiture against them and they have that ability in spades to use moments later and they can enhance allies while overwhelming enemies. I don't expect to convince you about how Nicrosil might work. From what I hear we will see how it works in the next era as it sounds like one of the main characters perhaps the main character will use nicrosil.

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11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No Roshar doesn't really have grenades. What they have are 2 lab accidents where as soon as they intentionally tried to combine voidlight and anti-voidlight in a gem. This is not something they are able to weaponize into a grenade at this time, and I suspect we wont ever see. What I predict we will see is Scadrian's using anti-light weapons against Rosharans at some point in the future. I don't dispute the potentially destructive force of light anti-light explosive, just the practicality of creating or using one without blowing yourself up. Brandon has been quoted saying that Aluminum is scientific anti-investiture tech and Anti-light is designed specifically to give the kill factor for Rosharan magic. There may be no analog to anti-light in any other system because no other system is wave based that we know of.

As I have said Anti-mist would be Scadrial's equivalent, just as antibreath would be Nalthis, or anti-dor would be Sel's

An antilight grenade would be really easy to make.

Brandon has never refered to Aluminum as anti-investiture, the clasest is it was a check on allomancy as it became more powerful.

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

both you and @therunner have both said that Fused will come back if killed by Aluminum and that is true, but in virtually every part of the Cosmere it has been shown to counter investiture. Fused use it even though they have been faced with high oath Radiants at some point of each conflict so it must be effective against Radiants even ones potentially in Shards. It seems to disrupt all forms of investiture except storing and tapping Identity for some reason. That disruptive influence is even used by Navani.

Shardplate is made of spren made physical, and lesser spren have been shown to have an aversion to Aluminum so there is a small possibility that aluminum weapons might affect it especially since Shard armored Radiants are not new and yet Fused still use aluminum weapons.

What else would they use but aluminum?

With the exception of Raysium which is far too rare for them all to use everything else would get cut in two by a single hit.

21 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I am sorry but Rosharan tactics are medieval so even though they have had wars the pike line is entirely inadequate to use against more modern weapons and tactics. The more modern weapons and tactics from Scadrial are well beyond Rosharan experience. Even most Windrunners and Skybreakers could be wiped out by flack shells especially if they group together.

Again what tactics? Scadrial has no military.

22 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

We will just need to agree to disagree that stormlight can be countered by the right frequency of light. Navani's experiments to create anti-light that succeeded were into wave mechanics not fluid mechanics.

Stormlight isn't actual light

23 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Compounding as described by Brandon allows exponential increases of investiture with nearly unlimited potential. Exponential increased quickly reach extreme quantities. In the case of the Cosmere the increase in investiture is stated as 10x. So 1:10, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1k:10k, 10k:100k, 100k:1M. In six compoundings you have 1Mx more investiture than you started with and that would take seconds to minutes to accomplish. How much time do you think it would take at that rate to pierce the Realms? Once you are near that degree of investiture maintaining it would be easy. I give it a day of compounding effort at most.

The most heavily invested metalmind we have ever even heard of are the Bands, and a single shardblade is more invested than they are, and Nightblood is far beyond them, but even he isn't a perpendicularity.

25 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No one knows how Nicrosil-F works so my guess based on what we do know is as good as any. Again we will just need to agree to disagree because neither of us can prove the other wrong at this time. I am going on the assumption that any investiture of any kind applied to a Soulbearer becomes personal investiture. I view Soulbearers (to use blood terminology) as universal Receivers and Thug's as nearly universal donors of investiture. Pewter seems to be able to donate abilities to nearly all kinds of metal minds.

Feruchemy can't store other people's investiture, it's not keyed to their identity

 

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The topic of war tactics has come up before, we discussed it exhaustively in the 20s and 30s of this ridiculously enormous thread. 
 

I'm just going to link what I said about that topic, it's the first spoilered section of the post:

TL;DR, in my heated opinion, Scadrial has far superior technology and the potential to create a superior army. What they do NOT have is an army. They have a police force. They don't have artillery, they don't have tanks, they don't mass produce grenades and machine guns and explosives. There are weapons manufacturers and talented gunsmiths, obviously, but they don't have the scaled production lines to make arms of that type and scale. They also don't have soldiers and generals that have any experience concerning the realities of war. And it would take months to years to get there.

Roshar has the superior military experience, numbers, resources, and battle hardening. They have more soldiers, they have more generals, and while they're grossly behind technologically and tactically, they have enough thinking minds to adapt quickly, and, since the time of this hypothetical is about 10 years after RoW, they also have the time to close it.

Scadrial does not have a clear advantage in the tactics department. I won't say that Roshar has a clear advantage, I don't think that either. They're just very different with very real exploitable weaknesses on both sides.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

For now Scadrial has weapons which would decimate Rosharn troops en mass and affect most mid-level and lower Radiants so even with a population advantage it might not be enough for Roshar. Also for now Rosharan Magic is restricted to Roshar so Radiants and Fused are only a threat there. We know that will change but don't know what will enable that ability to leave.

Scadrial has a few basic machine guns, nothing a bit of soulcasting could not get rid off. They could hide bombs in aluminum casings to shield them from this, but all Radiants still have healing on par with F-gold, so with enough Stormlight this is not an issue outside of direct hits.

Weapon advantage of Scadrial would be something they can use a few times only, before Roshar adapts tactics. Already they had to quickly adapt to the presence of Regals and Fused, so adapting to fighting against guns should not be an issue. So long as they kill 1 Scadrian for every 10 Rosharans they lose, Roshar wins just due to population. Plus they can use fabrials to make primitive guns themselves pretty much right now, and Era 2 Scadrial is still at least 10 years in future.

Roshar has unchained Bondsmiths, few people who figured out how to let Cognitive entities leave, people actively working on the problem and we know that Radiants can leave by a point ~10 years in the future. They have all the tools needed to to figure out how to let them leave. You are also ignoring the dangers of Warform/Stormform parshendi and Thunderclasts, those are also definite threats.

EDIT:

Quote
9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I am sorry but Rosharan tactics are medieval so even though they have had wars the pike line is entirely inadequate to use against more modern weapons and tactics. The more modern weapons and tactics from Scadrial are well beyond Rosharan experience. Even most Windrunners and Skybreakers could be wiped out by flack shells especially if they group together.

Scadrial has no modern warfare tacticts, since Scadrial has no modern warfare at all. In our world it took one 4 year war with machine guns to abandon the line tactics, and it did not take people years to realize that. Scadrial would have advantage in few first battles, but once Roshar has seen what they have they would adapt. After all machine gun is not that different from a couple hundred archers (in principle of avoiding it), it is just more localized and faster. They are also getting experience fighting Fused and Regals, and a lot of Surges are very effective on groups, so not bunching up would be something they know even if they only see it as something only occasionally useful.

Also Scadrial does not really have flack shells, they have no airborn forces at all (what they have are in effect big blimps, flying because they are light not because of aerodynamics). If Scadrial follows real-world they are 30-40 years before they develop any effective anti-aircraft weapons, and flack shells are further 30 years in future. That is almost 70-80 years from RoW, by then Roshar will be very different place.

Plus Radiant is much smaller than airplane and more maneuverable.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No Roshar doesn't really have grenades. What they have are 2 lab accidents where as soon as they intentionally tried to combine voidlight and anti-voidlight in a gem. This is not something they are able to weaponize into a grenade at this time, and I suspect we wont ever see. What I predict we will see is Scadrian's using anti-light weapons against Rosharans at some point in the future. I don't dispute the potentially destructive force of light anti-light explosive, just the practicality of creating or using one without blowing yourself up. Brandon has been quoted saying that Aluminum is scientific anti-investiture tech and Anti-light is designed specifically to give the kill factor for Rosharan magic. There may be no analog to anti-light in any other system because no other system is wave based that we know of.

Roshar has all they need to make grenades however, all they need is a way to automate process of drawing light from one gem into the other. The second they have that, they have bombs, if you miniaturize that, you have grenades.

Again, Scadrial cannot make anti-light, because regular light has nothing to do with Stormlight/Whateverlight.

Please do quote Brandon on aluminum being anti-investiture tech, since he quite specifically said that aluminum does not necessarily negate magic (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11798https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7942 ), what it does is interact oddly in most magic systems compared to other things.

All Investiture is wave based, more specifically, coding of all investiture is wave based. Ruin and Preservation have pure tones. It might not be as immediately obvious as on Roshar, but just like metals have some effects even in other magic system, so do Rhythms on other planets (or colors like on Nalthis for that matter).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

We will just need to agree to disagree that stormlight can be countered by the right frequency of light. Navani's experiments to create anti-light that succeeded were into wave mechanics not fluid mechanics.

There is nothing to disagree about, you are wrong. Navani needed Stormlight/Voidlight to work on her experiments (and to actually make anti-light) + Pure Tones (what you need to create Anti-light) are not frequencies but Rhythms, just take a look at Coppermind (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rhythm#The_Pure_Tones). Light of some frequency will do nothing at all to Stormlight/Voidlight etc. , remember that Stormlight and Anti-stormlight have the same Rhythm just phase shifted. Do you know what you get if you phase shift a photon? The same photon, nothing changes.

So again, stormlight = gaseous investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103/#e1023 , or check the Coppermind), light = photons, not investiture.

You seem to be repeatedly confusing real world meaning of words (burning, light), with their magical meanings inside Cosmere ('burning' metals in allomancy, Storm-'light'), which makes for a frustrating discussion. Just because they are the same word, does not mean they are the same thing.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

both you and @therunner have both said that Fused will come back if killed by Aluminum and that is true, but in virtually every part of the Cosmere it has been shown to counter investiture. Fused use it even though they have been faced with high oath Radiants at some point of each conflict so it must be effective against Radiants even ones potentially in Shards. It seems to disrupt all forms of investiture except storing and tapping Identity for some reason. That disruptive influence is even used by Navani.

Shardplate is made of spren made physical, and lesser spren have been shown to have an aversion to Aluminum so there is a small possibility that aluminum weapons might affect it especially since Shard armored Radiants are not new and yet Fused still use aluminum weapons.

Again Aluminum does not necessarily counter investiture, it just ignores magical effects/does weird things (look at the WoBs above). And Fused use it because it is the only thing they can get in large amounts that cannot be cut by a Shardblade like a butter.

Aluminum does not disrupt, it ignores or modifies. The effect seen in conjoiners is interesting, but so far only happens there, and conjoiners have cut a single spren in half, so they are a bit extreme. Spren outside of conjoiners do not seem to have aversion to aluminum.

If Aluminum was as effective as you are saying against Shardplate someone would have noticed over the last 2000 years since Recreance and it would be a standard weapon against Shardbearers. It isn't, hence its effect cannot be as extreme as you are saying. It will ignore the magical aspect of Shardplate resistance, but not the thick and hard metal itself.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure this WoB supports your point (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569) given that Wax says that his physical abilities seem to increase to compensate for increased weight as shown by some of the feats he accomplishes. Oh and Sazed needed the extra weight to brace his pewter strength which also comes with extra mass. That makes me wonder if he could have stored some of that increased weight from his tapped strength into his Iron mind for later use. He might then be able to store some of the increased speed in steel from the interaction of greater strength and less weight. Of course he was no warrior so that may be why he never thought of that.

I put that WoB there to show that Wax does have some increased ability, not to support the point but to contrast two different pieces of information on this particular topic.

If you would read the passage from WoA with Sazed, you would see he does nothing like what you are claiming, quote (WoA, pg.679):

Quote

Sazed scrambled up against the gate, pushing corpses out of the way, forcing the massive portal closed all the way. He tapped his ironmind further, draining its precious reserve at alarmind rate. He became so heavy he felt his own weight crushing him to the ground, and only his increased strength managed to keep him on his feet.

This is quite explicit, without his pewter he would not be able to stand after tapping his ironminds, hence there is some upper limit beyond which you tap too much and your body cannot keep up.

The interaction idea is interesting, however to get appreciably heavier he would need to use up more of his strength then what he stored due to losses, so they would be heavily limited by stored strength. And the issue with pewter is not that he is slower due to bulk, it is that at some point the muscles are too large and prohibit movement. I think it would work to get larger amount of mass fast, and some better amount of speed but not drastically so.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Compounding as described by Brandon allows exponential increases of investiture with nearly unlimited potential. Exponential increased quickly reach extreme quantities. In the case of the Cosmere the increase in investiture is stated as 10x. So 1:10, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1k:10k, 10k:100k, 100k:1M. In six compoundings you have 1Mx more investiture than you started with and that would take seconds to minutes to accomplish. How much time do you think it would take at that rate to pierce the Realms? Once you are near that degree of investiture maintaining it would be easy. I give it a day of compounding effort at most.

Exponentials are fast yes, however even the most invested metalminds (BoM) ever seen created by a Compounder/Fullborn-like person are not as invested as a single Shardblade, much less Nightblood. To put it bluntly, when it comes to amounts of investiture, Scadrial is lightweight, most other major Shardworlds push around much greater amounts.

You are also completely forgetting that to Compound, you need to burn the metalmind (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e851). To burn flakes of metal (10s of grams, if we are being generous) takes hours, to burn a single metalmind would take days. And to compound you need to do it repeatedly, with possibly larger amounts of metal each time. So no, six compoundings would not take minutes or seconds, it would take two weeks or more.

And even then, full metalmind is still much less invested than a Shardblade(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299), much less Nightblood

Quote

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

So yeah, if someone sat around for decades doing nothing but Compounding, they might have enough to open a perpendicularity, maybe.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No one knows how Nicrosil-F works so my guess based on what we do know is as good as any. Again we will just need to agree to disagree because neither of us can prove the other wrong at this time. I am going on the assumption that any investiture of any kind applied to a Soulbearer becomes personal investiture. I view Soulbearers (to use blood terminology) as universal Receivers and Thug's as nearly universal donors of investiture. Pewter seems to be able to donate abilities to nearly all kinds of metal minds.

Since stealing in Hemalurgy using Nicrosil requires for the power to be in spiritual Realm (so Breaths might not be stealable), and F-nicrosil is spiritual metal, they might have little ability to affect investiture that is in Physical Realm, so all lashings for example, or Stormlight that is not inside them. And you are forgetting that all Feruchemy does is store Feruchemists attributes, not those of stuff around them. If they cannot store weight of their clothes, or speed of train they are sitting in, they cannot store Investiture that is not in them (spiritually), so no storing of Lashings.

Thugs can fill only F-pewter, F-gold, F-steel, maybe F-brass (unless the resistance to temperatures is due to enhanced health) and F-nicrosil (but so can anyone), so not much universal donors.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Sparkers paired with almost any allomancy that increases their perception and with pewter would enable a highly capable individual. The increased mental speed would enable quick evaluation and increased perception increased information to base responses on. With pewter where the person has enhances all around physical abilities you get nearly unbeatable martial artist/warrior and pewter during less active periods can be used to fill the metal mind for when it is needed. Steel would also create a multi useful pair. With bendalloy they might be able to accurately fire from a time bubble.

You are describing how the powers enhance the individual, that has nothing to do with the powers themselves being suited for teamwork. Of course a more capable person will be a more useful, but that has nothing to do with team. Also bendalloy bubble randomly deflects bullets, you cannot really fire accurately from it, even Wax pulled it off only once.

Everything you listed has little to do with helping team. Metallic arts strengthen individual greatly, but have little in ways of directly supporting others, unlike Rosharan Surges where over half is directly applicable to others to help them.

Edited by therunner
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3 hours ago, The Technovore said:

The topic of war tactics has come up before, we discussed it exhaustively in the 20s and 30s of this ridiculously enormous thread. 
 

I'm just going to link what I said about that topic, it's the first spoilered section of the post:

TL;DR, in my heated opinion, Scadrial has far superior technology and the potential to create a superior army. What they do NOT have is an army. They have a police force. They don't have artillery, they don't have tanks, they don't mass produce grenades and machine guns and explosives. There are weapons manufacturers and talented gunsmiths, obviously, but they don't have the scaled production lines to make arms of that type and scale. They also don't have soldiers and generals that have any experience concerning the realities of war. And it would take months to years to get there.

Roshar has the superior military experience, numbers, resources, and battle hardening. They have more soldiers, they have more generals, and while they're grossly behind technologically and tactically, they have enough thinking minds to adapt quickly, and, since the time of this hypothetical is about 10 years after RoW, they also have the time to close it.

Scadrial does not have a clear advantage in the tactics department. I won't say that Roshar has a clear advantage, I don't think that either. They're just very different with very real exploitable weaknesses on both sides.

this is an excerpt from the newspaper articles published in BoM "Each ship carries 12-inch twin gun with each turret, having a range of six-teen miles, said Severington. Other improvement include reinforced armor hull, electrical rangefinders, and a top speed of 24 miles an hour". it is a presentation of a fleet built by a noble. It seems clear to me that Scadrial has both the technology and the industrial facilities needed to mass produce heavy weapons of war. And if they have a navy it means they also have a ground military force with cannons and machine guns. Even just as a precaution in case the Koloss want to go to war. The fact that the books focus on the vicissitudes of a policeman does not mean that Scadrial does not also have a military force at its disposal.

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1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said:

this is an excerpt from the newspaper articles published in BoM "Each ship carries 12-inch twin gun with each turret, having a range of six-teen miles, said Severington. Other improvement include reinforced armor hull, electrical rangefinders, and a top speed of 24 miles an hour". it is a presentation of a fleet built by a noble. It seems clear to me that Scadrial has both the technology and the industrial facilities needed to mass produce heavy weapons of war. And if they have a navy it means they also have a ground military force with cannons and machine guns. Even just as a precaution in case the Koloss want to go to war. The fact that the books focus on the vicissitudes of a policeman does not mean that Scadrial does not also have a military force at its disposal.

Interesting, I need to pay close attention to broadsheets on my re-read of Era 2. This puts their artillery tech at around ~1880s compared to IRL, about 15-20 years further than I assumed. They do have good cannons, but I do not think you can make assumptions about machine guns, they do have some, but main issue with machine guns is them getting stuck, big cannons are comparatively easy.

In that broadsheet you can also read that others mock this nobleman, laughing at the idea of needing weapons of war. If they do not see a possibility of war, why would they keep professional army? Even these ships were built as a private project, Scadrial by Era 2 does not seem to have standing armies (at least in the north where large scale conflict is virtually unknown).

Additional issue for any heavy weapon of Scadrial are Radiant soulcasters. Considering how many moving parts weapons/ships like this have, using soulcasting to render them inoperable is relatively easy. Modified glove fabrial Kaladin used could also be used to create what is effectively basic artillery as follows

  1. Set the fabrial in desired direction  and either attach it to stone or soulcast air into stone/metal.
  2. Activate the fabrial (probably by using another conjoiner fabrial to be able to active it at distance).
  3. Watch it fly with acceleration and destroy your foes.

This design would be limited in how deep wells Rosharans have available, and targeting would be crude, but I am sure few improvements could be done.

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@therunner I just told Luke to not source the coppermind!

anyway here's the WoB gems glow from the spiritual realm  not the stromlight

Spoiler

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

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I'll throw in a hypothetical. Coalition's army they sent to take Emul vs Northern Scadrial's defense force.

Coalition has:

  • Infantry with spears, swords, and pretty formations.
  • Limited cavalry
  • Fabrial platforms
  • Regular Shardbearers
  • A dozen Edgedancers
  • A 4th Oath Elsecaller
  • A 3rd Oath Bondsmith
  • 16 Lightweavers whose levels I don't remember
  • And let's say all of their Windrunners. That would be around 250 squires and 50 3rd Oath Knights.

Basin has:

  • A force equipped with firearms
  • Artillery
  • Some machineguns
  • Mistings
  • Ferrings
  • Koloss-blooded(?) 

The way I see it, all of Roshars strength comes from Radiants. If we remove them and Meatalborn from the picture, I don't see any way for a medical army to win over any late 1800s force. I see your superior battle tactics arguments, but it still seems too far-fetched. But if anyone has any ideas on how to defeat an enemy that has an effective range of dozens to hundreds of yards greater than yours, I'll be interested in reading them. The range numbers are for bows (60 yards) and 1860 Henry(100 yards) or 1865 Spencer(500 yards).

If the battle happens on Roshar, Scadrial loses. Renewable Stormlight, a Perpendicularity, supply with Oathgates and Highstorms create an unwinnable situation. 

If the battle happens in the Basin, they have a chance, depending on whether they can deal with Windrunnders and the Elsecaller quickly or not. Bondsmith is also a big question here. I don't think that Dalinar can take a Perpendicularity of a Shard to a different Shardworld, but for the sake of consistency, let's say that he can. 

In this scenario, Windrunners seem like the lagers threat, particularly full ones. They are the only units that can reliably engage with Scadrians because they can fly. They are almost impossible to hit, don't stop when they are hit, and can destroy the entire machinegun nest with a few sweeps of a Shardblade. Their biggest weakness as a battalion is that killing one full knight removes powers from all his squires. To counter them, we use Tineyes and Seekers as sentries. Ideally, with a good few squads of rifleman. 

Jasnah is a good contender for being an even greater threat than the Windrunners. Shardplate and blade, combined with her powers, make her a literal tank sent against a 19th-century military force. If she approaches in stealth, she can decimate fortifications, ammunition storages, railways, bridges and gates, never mind people. A good two dozen of Thugs and Brutes can probably deal with her, but something tells me that if Scadrians wouldn't manage to catch her in a trap with explosives, killing her by conventional means would probably be a massacre. 

Dalinar works as a battery 24/7, trying to provide enough Stormlight for the Radiants and Soulcasters. Against him, the Basin should send as many assassins as possible. Because without Dalinar, Rosharans turn into a big medieval army. I assume that pulling Investiture directly from the Spiritual realm is quite distinct, so finding him with A-Bronze shouldn't be difficult.

Lightweavers are either Soulcasting or acting as saboteurs. The only way I can think of to fight against them is to look hard and shoot them full of lead once you identified them. 

Shadbearers are difficult to kill but easier than Jasnah because having a Shardblade as your only weapon makes circling them less dangerous. They can probably be killed by conventional means.

Threats from Scadrial are not people, but artillery, machinegun nests, and infrastructure. Windrunners with firebombs or just their blades should make easy work of them. 

34 minutes ago, therunner said:

In that broadsheet you can also read that others mock this nobleman, laughing at the idea of needing weapons of war. If they do not see a possibility of war, why would they keep professional army? Even these ships were built as a private project, Scadrial by Era 2 does not seem to have standing armies (at least in the north where large scale conflict is virtually unknown).

The attitude of Scadrians toward war may be less of a crutch than the ideas of battlefield honor and fair fights that lords and ladies seem to have. The history of warfare is funny in hindsight because so many things that seem obvious had to be proven in the field with blood. When Maxim's machinegun was first introduced, nobody cared for it. 

There is a story about a British cavalry unit that was issued a Maxim gun for a training exercise. The unit's commander, Edward, if I recall correctly, ordered to set up at an elevated position, wait for the "enemy" to show up, and open fire. After the exercise, Edward got called to speak with his brigade commander. Confident in his victory and with a smile on his face, Edward told his commander, "You're all dead, sir!" His commander replied that he'd never seen such a lack of cavalry spirit more blatantly displayed and ordered Edward to return to the barracks by foot as punishment.

9 hours ago, The Technovore said:

TL;DR, in my heated opinion, Scadrial has far superior technology and the potential to create a superior army. What they do NOT have is an army. They have a police force. They don't have artillery, they don't have tanks, they don't mass produce grenades and machine guns and explosives.

Modern hand grenades and tanks were developed as solutions for the problems of trench warfare of WW1. Hand grenades for clearing the enemy trench and tanks for crossing no man's land without being killed by artillery shrapnel, enemy machineguns, or drowning in mud.  Since they hadn't encountered anything like that, it's a little early to expect them to have either, no?

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6 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

this is an excerpt from the newspaper articles published in BoM "Each ship carries 12-inch twin gun with each turret, having a range of six-teen miles, said Severington. Other improvement include reinforced armor hull, electrical rangefinders, and a top speed of 24 miles an hour". it is a presentation of a fleet built by a noble. It seems clear to me that Scadrial has both the technology and the industrial facilities needed to mass produce heavy weapons of war. And if they have a navy it means they also have a ground military force with cannons and machine guns. Even just as a precaution in case the Koloss want to go to war. The fact that the books focus on the vicissitudes of a policeman does not mean that Scadrial does not also have a military force at its disposal.

One noblemans parade force isn't going to help, that army is for show.

7 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I'll throw in a hypothetical. Coalition's army they sent to take Emul vs Northern Scadrial's defense force.

Coalition has:

  • Infantry with spears, swords, and pretty formations.
  • Limited cavalry
  • Fabrial platforms
  • Regular Shardbearers
  • A dozen Edgedancers
  • A 4th Oath Elsecaller
  • A 3rd Oath Bondsmith
  • 16 Lightweavers whose levels I don't remember
  • And let's say all of their Windrunners. That would be around 250 squires and 50 3rd Oath Knights.

Basin has:

  • A force equipped with firearms
  • Artillery
  • Some machineguns
  • Mistings
  • Ferrings
  • Koloss-blooded(?) 

Whether or not an army without invested support could win is irrelevent Roshar has invested individuals and they will use them, a single thunderclast would annialate the entire Scadrian force.

9 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

The way I see it, all of Roshars strength comes from Radiants. If we remove them and Meatalborn from the picture, I don't see any way for a medical army to win over any late 1800s force. I see your superior battle tactics arguments, but it still seems too far-fetched. But if anyone has any ideas on how to defeat an enemy that has an effective range of dozens to hundreds of yards greater than yours, I'll be interested in reading them. The range numbers are for bows (60 yards) and 1860 Henry(100 yards) or 1865 Spencer(500 yards).

Longbows have a range of over 300 yards.

 

Other than that good analysis

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

@therunner I just told Luke to not source the coppermind!

anyway here's the WoB gems glow from the spiritual realm  not the stromlight

  Reveal hidden contents

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

I apologize :)  Outside of that WoB I linked I could not see a better source for something seemingly as clear as Stormlight being gaseous investiture. Your WoB is much better in that regard, even addressing where the light is coming from.

 

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I'll throw in a hypothetical. Coalition's army they sent to take Emul vs Northern Scadrial's defense force.

Coalition has:

  • Infantry with spears, swords, and pretty formations.
  • Limited cavalry
  • Fabrial platforms
  • Regular Shardbearers
  • A dozen Edgedancers
  • A 4th Oath Elsecaller
  • A 3rd Oath Bondsmith
  • 16 Lightweavers whose levels I don't remember
  • And let's say all of their Windrunners. That would be around 250 squires and 50 3rd Oath Knights.

Basin has:

  • A force equipped with firearms
  • Artillery
  • Some machineguns
  • Mistings
  • Ferrings
  • Koloss-blooded(?) 

I will be considering the forces as you suggested them

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The way I see it, all of Roshars strength comes from Radiants. If we remove them and Meatalborn from the picture, I don't see any way for a medical army to win over any late 1800s force. I see your superior battle tactics arguments, but it still seems too far-fetched. But if anyone has any ideas on how to defeat an enemy that has an effective range of dozens to hundreds of yards greater than yours, I'll be interested in reading them. The range numbers are for bows (60 yards) and 1860 Henry(100 yards) or 1865 Spencer(500 yards).

I agree, if you take out Radiants then Roshar has no advantages to speak off. Eventually fabrial tech would catch up (at least in possible effects), but that is still decades in the future. English longbows (mid 16th century) had maximum range of ~300 meters, so around 200-250 meters in the hands of usual bowman, but that is still far less then effective range of a gun.

I think if you take away only Radiants, and leave Roshar with fabrials and shardbearers they could still make Elendel Basin hurt, but they would probably lose eventually (depending on how well they would protect their shardbearers and on how much light they could get). If you also take fabrials and Shard, they have no chance.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

If the battle happens in the Basin, they have a chance, depending on whether they can deal with Windrunnders and the Elsecaller quickly or not. Bondsmith is also a big question here. I don't think that Dalinar can take a Perpendicularity of a Shard to a different Shardworld, but for the sake of consistency, let's say that he can.

If Radiants can get off-world I think opening perpendicularity off-world as well is a good assumption, there might be a case that what he does is just particular application of his surges (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492, also Ishar opens one up as well, without being bonded to Stormfather). Below I will also suggest some points I think you neglected, mostly to do with Cognitive realm.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Jasnah is a good contender for being an even greater threat than the Windrunners. Shardplate and blade, combined with her powers, make her a literal tank sent against a 19th-century military force. If she approaches in stealth, she can decimate fortifications, ammunition storages, railways, bridges and gates, never mind people. A good two dozen of Thugs and Brutes can probably deal with her, but something tells me that if Scadrians wouldn't manage to catch her in a trap with explosives, killing her by conventional means would probably be a massacre.

I think Jasnah (or someone) mentions there are at least 2 other Elsecallers, but I might be mistaken. You are also neglecting the fact that Jasnah can escape into the Cognitive whenever she wishes (that is how she escaped the assassination attempt), and assisted by Dalinar can easily leave through perpendicularity (had she got stuck there without Stormlight). I think using Jasnah (or other Elsecallers) solely from Cognitive to soulcast away metals, weapons and defensive positions would be a much better tactical choice, as Scadrial has no way to reach them there and they could attack otherwise well defended positions with ease.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

In this scenario, Windrunners seem like the lagers threat, particularly full ones. They are the only units that can reliably engage with Scadrians because they can fly. They are almost impossible to hit, don't stop when they are hit, and can destroy the entire machinegun nest with a few sweeps of a Shardblade. Their biggest weakness as a battalion is that killing one full knight removes powers from all his squires. To counter them, we use Tineyes and Seekers as sentries. Ideally, with a good few squads of rifleman.

Good ideas for counters, however unless those bullets are aluminum and headshots, Windrunners could definitely heal from them. Or at least survive long enough for Edgedancer/Truthwatcher to heal them. It would definitely force them to be more careful (or steal a bunch of helmets), but I do not think it would be enough.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Dalinar works as a battery 24/7, trying to provide enough Stormlight for the Radiants and Soulcasters. Against him, the Basin should send as many assassins as possible. Because without Dalinar, Rosharans turn into a big medieval army. I assume that pulling Investiture directly from the Spiritual realm is quite distinct, so finding him with A-Bronze shouldn't be difficult.

Since Surges seem to work inside Cognitive, it is entirely possible he could open the perpendicularity from Cognitive. If so, he is nearly unreachable, as Scadrial has no method of traveling there (only Shardpool, whose location they do not have). If he cannot do it, he should drop out of cognitive only to replenish light and for no other reason, ideally in different location each time. With perpendicularity open nearby he is also virtually unkillable, thanks to all that stormlight.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Threats from Scadrial are not people, but artillery, machinegun nests, and infrastructure. Windrunners with firebombs or just their blades should make easy work of them.

In the scenario you propose I agree, outside of lone F-steel compounder (who might not even exist, odds for any specific type of compounder are 1 in ~3.5 million, so statistically in Elendel basin there are at most 3 compounders total EDIT : 3 of any given type, so around ~48 compounders total). I think that lone Jasnah (or maybe those other 2-3 Elsecallers, if my memory is correct) attacking from Cognitive would be much more dangerous, as they could reach targets Windrunners could not and destroy them without Scadrians ever expecting it.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The attitude of Scadrians toward war may be less of a crutch than the ideas of battlefield honor and fair fights that lords and ladies seem to have. The history of warfare is funny in hindsight because so many things that seem obvious had to be proven in the field with blood. When Maxim's machinegun was first introduced, nobody cared for it.

There is a story about a British cavalry unit that was issued a Maxim gun for a training exercise. The unit's commander, Edward, if I recall correctly, ordered to set up at an elevated position, wait for the "enemy" to show up, and open fire. After the exercise, Edward got called to speak with his brigade commander. Confident in his victory and with a smile on his face, Edward told his commander, "You're all dead, sir!" His commander replied that he'd never seen such a lack of cavalry spirit more blatantly displayed and ordered Edward to return to the barracks by foot as punishment.

When talking about battlefield honor and fair fights ideas of lords, are you talking about Roshar or Scadrial? From the context I assume Scadrial. And I do agree, people were highly resistant to changes in warfare, looking at the horrors of WW1 is evidence enough (many charges against machine guns before they realized that is a bad idea).

However, looking at the horrors of modern asymmetrical warfare, I can kind of see their point. Back then you at least had to hear them die, now you do not have to be anywhere near them, so those people do not even get that final witness.

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Modern hand grenades and tanks were developed as solutions for the problems of trench warfare of WW1. Hand grenades for clearing the enemy trench and tanks for crossing no man's land without being killed by artillery shrapnel, enemy machineguns, or drowning in mud.  Since they hadn't encountered anything like that, it's a little early to expect them to have either, no?

True, however they will have to contend with Thunderclasts, and at this point only Shardblades work on them. Had I been in Coalition, I would definately try to look for ways to damage literal stonemonsters and new explosive would seem like an obvious starting point. So I would expect them to start with larger bombs (due to both technical limitations and desired application) and if those proved at least some what effective, then they could be minituarized to hand grenades.

Edited by therunner
correction
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34 minutes ago, therunner said:

If Radiants can get off-world I think opening perpendicularity off-world as well is a good assumption, there might be a case that what he does is just particular application of his surges (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492, also Ishar opens one up as well, without being bonded to Stormfather). Below I will also suggest some points I think you neglected, mostly to do with Cognitive realm.

I always interpreted what Dalinar and Ishar did by summoning a perpendicularity as just moving it in place. Moving it away from its Shardworld, however, seems like moving a wave without moving an ocean. Dalinar might be Ascended and a near vessel of Honor, but most of its power is still on Roshar.

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think Jasnah (or someone) mentions there are at least 2 other Elsecallers, but I might be mistaken. You are also neglecting the fact that Jasnah can escape into the Cognitive whenever she wishes (that is how she escaped the assassination attempt), and assisted by Dalinar can easily leave through perpendicularity (had she got stuck there without Stormlight). I think using Jasnah (or other Elsecallers) solely from Cognitive to soulcast away metals, weapons and defensive positions would be a much better tactical choice, as Scadrial has no way to reach them there and they could attack otherwise well defended positions with ease.

I completely forgot that Soulcasting works from the Cognitive Realm that seems like a much better use for her.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Good ideas for counters, however unless those bullets are aluminum and headshots, Windrunners could definitely heal from them. Or at least survive long enough for Edgedancer/Truthwatcher to heal them. It would definitely force them to be more careful (or steal a bunch of helmets), but I do not think it would be enough.

I agree that it might not be enough. Though, it's not only the damage from wounds that counts but depleting enough Stormlight so the Windrunner can't fly away. 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

True, however they will have to contend with Thunderclasts, and at this point only Shardblades work on them. Had I been in Coalition, I would definately try to look for ways to damage literal stonemonsters and new explosive would seem like an obvious starting point. So I would expect them to start with larger bombs (due to both technical limitations and desired application) and if those proved at least some what effective, then they could be minituarized to hand grenades.

Thunderclasts are way scarier to fight against than combat vehicles like tanks, but the most important for explosives is that they have no real weak spots that we know of. It has no bones to shatter, no arteries to cut, and no muscles to tear apart. The fact that they are all stone makes it more difficult for explosives because the shockwave would be equally dispersed through its body, all fragmentation from grenades casing wouldn't even annoy it, and any stone shrapnel from the explosion is more likely to damage people around it than the thing itself. So all you have left is the force of the actual explosion as a damaging element.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

When talking about battlefield honor and fair fights ideas of lords, are you talking about Roshar or Scadrial? From the context I assume Scadrial. And I do agree, people were highly resistant to changes in warfare, looking at the horrors of WW1 is evidence enough (many charges against machine guns before they realized that is a bad idea).

However, looking at the horrors of modern asymmetrical warfare, I can kind of see their point. Back then you at least had to hear them die, now you do not have to be anywhere near them, so those people do not even get that final witness.

I was talking about Scadrial. And it only just occurred to me how similar those pre-WW1 ideas of the bayonet charges and facing your enemy to the Listener tradition of wearing white for assassinations. 

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34 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I always interpreted what Dalinar and Ishar did by summoning a perpendicularity as just moving it in place. Moving it away from its Shardworld, however, seems like moving a wave without moving an ocean. Dalinar might be Ascended and a near vessel of Honor, but most of its power is still on Roshar.

Ah, that also makes sense.

34 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I agree that it might not be enough. Though, it's not only the damage from wounds that counts but depleting enough Stormlight so the Windrunner can't fly away.

I am not sure if that would be enough, Kaladin got his spite cut multiple times before he needed a refill. However, it is a viable tactic albeit a difficult one.

35 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Thunderclasts are way scarier to fight against than combat vehicles like tanks, but the most important for explosives is that they have no real weak spots that we know of. It has no bones to shatter, no arteries to cut, and no muscles to tear apart. The fact that they are all stone makes it more difficult for explosives because the shockwave would be equally dispersed through its body, all fragmentation from grenades casing wouldn't even annoy it, and any stone shrapnel from the explosion is more likely to damage people around it than the thing itself. So all you have left is the force of the actual explosion as a damaging element.

True, but even slightly damaging them is still an improvement compared to current situation where they have no other option other than Shardblade or Radiants Surges. I do concede that it would probably not be too effective, unless you somehow managed to get the explosive inside the rock.

37 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I was talking about Scadrial. And it only just occurred to me how similar those pre-WW1 ideas of the bayonet charges and facing your enemy to the Listener tradition of wearing white for assassinations. 

Thank you for the clarification. That Listener tradition is interesting, very honorable. I guess it makes sense that Singers that turned their back on Odium would incline towards Honor again.

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6 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I'll throw in a hypothetical. Coalition's army they sent to take Emul vs Northern Scadrial's defense force.

Coalition has:

  • Infantry with spears, swords, and pretty formations.
  • Limited cavalry
  • Fabrial platforms
  • Regular Shardbearers
  • A dozen Edgedancers
  • A 4th Oath Elsecaller
  • A 3rd Oath Bondsmith
  • 16 Lightweavers whose levels I don't remember
  • And let's say all of their Windrunners. That would be around 250 squires and 50 3rd Oath Knights.

Basin has:

  • A force equipped with firearms
  • Artillery
  • Some machineguns
  • Mistings
  • Ferrings
  • Koloss-blooded(?) 

The way I see it, all of Roshars strength comes from Radiants. If we remove them and Meatalborn from the picture, I don't see any way for a medical army to win over any late 1800s force. I see your superior battle tactics arguments, but it still seems too far-fetched. But if anyone has any ideas on how to defeat an enemy that has an effective range of dozens to hundreds of yards greater than yours, I'll be interested in reading them. The range numbers are for bows (60 yards) and 1860 Henry(100 yards) or 1865 Spencer(500 yards).

If the battle happens on Roshar, Scadrial loses. Renewable Stormlight, a Perpendicularity, supply with Oathgates and Highstorms create an unwinnable situation. 

If the battle happens in the Basin, they have a chance, depending on whether they can deal with Windrunnders and the Elsecaller quickly or not. Bondsmith is also a big question here. I don't think that Dalinar can take a Perpendicularity of a Shard to a different Shardworld, but for the sake of consistency, let's say that he can. 

In this scenario, Windrunners seem like the lagers threat, particularly full ones. They are the only units that can reliably engage with Scadrians because they can fly. They are almost impossible to hit, don't stop when they are hit, and can destroy the entire machinegun nest with a few sweeps of a Shardblade. Their biggest weakness as a battalion is that killing one full knight removes powers from all his squires. To counter them, we use Tineyes and Seekers as sentries. Ideally, with a good few squads of rifleman. 

Jasnah is a good contender for being an even greater threat than the Windrunners. Shardplate and blade, combined with her powers, make her a literal tank sent against a 19th-century military force. If she approaches in stealth, she can decimate fortifications, ammunition storages, railways, bridges and gates, never mind people. A good two dozen of Thugs and Brutes can probably deal with her, but something tells me that if Scadrians wouldn't manage to catch her in a trap with explosives, killing her by conventional means would probably be a massacre. 

Dalinar works as a battery 24/7, trying to provide enough Stormlight for the Radiants and Soulcasters. Against him, the Basin should send as many assassins as possible. Because without Dalinar, Rosharans turn into a big medieval army. I assume that pulling Investiture directly from the Spiritual realm is quite distinct, so finding him with A-Bronze shouldn't be difficult.

Lightweavers are either Soulcasting or acting as saboteurs. The only way I can think of to fight against them is to look hard and shoot them full of lead once you identified them. 

Shadbearers are difficult to kill but easier than Jasnah because having a Shardblade as your only weapon makes circling them less dangerous. They can probably be killed by conventional means.

Threats from Scadrial are not people, but artillery, machinegun nests, and infrastructure. Windrunners with firebombs or just their blades should make easy work of them. 

The attitude of Scadrians toward war may be less of a crutch than the ideas of battlefield honor and fair fights that lords and ladies seem to have. The history of warfare is funny in hindsight because so many things that seem obvious had to be proven in the field with blood. When Maxim's machinegun was first introduced, nobody cared for it. 

There is a story about a British cavalry unit that was issued a Maxim gun for a training exercise. The unit's commander, Edward, if I recall correctly, ordered to set up at an elevated position, wait for the "enemy" to show up, and open fire. After the exercise, Edward got called to speak with his brigade commander. Confident in his victory and with a smile on his face, Edward told his commander, "You're all dead, sir!" His commander replied that he'd never seen such a lack of cavalry spirit more blatantly displayed and ordered Edward to return to the barracks by foot as punishment.

Modern hand grenades and tanks were developed as solutions for the problems of trench warfare of WW1. Hand grenades for clearing the enemy trench and tanks for crossing no man's land without being killed by artillery shrapnel, enemy machineguns, or drowning in mud.  Since they hadn't encountered anything like that, it's a little early to expect them to have either, no?

A decent line up though it seems to me that Scadrian Tech is more like just pre WWI Since they have cars. The range of artillery also seems short for the period since artillery range could potentially be miles and or thousands of yards depending on the piece. Also using aluminum for projectiles and shrapnel  would be effective against all but 4th oath Radiants and Someone mentioned thunderclasts.  Oh the flack used against Windrunners and Skybreakers could be Aluminum too. Thunderclasts if they could even be used off system would be vulnerable to heavy artillery since stone is still brittle and they are a huge target making them easy to hit from far away.

You make a good point that if the fight happens on Roshar Scadrians would be at a disadvantage, but also at this point it would need to be since Radiants are trapped there. Bronze mistings could guard against sneak attacks by Radiants or Fused since they are natural detectors and Tin eyes could detect other attempted sneak attacks. I don't think enough Windrunners would get through the machine guns and artillery to make that much difference. All the Scadrian Tech can be transported into the CR so fleeing to CR to sneak and Attack would leave those who do more not less vulnerable to attack, or do you think that all of the tech would be moved back to the PR on Arrival? The ultimate detector from Scadrial would be a Windwhisper/Sentry. They would be nearly impossible to sneak past.

Scadrial is at the point where it could quickly ramp up its industrial production and innovation to produce arms for war, but the same can't be said for Roshar.

Jasnah is only one person and could be overwhelmed by numbers and detected long before she could strike, don't count on the CR there would likely be troops there as well and She would be without Plate or Blade there. Again Aluminum based weaponry would be lethal especially in the CR against Radiants of any kind regardless how much stormlight they have.

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ah, that also makes sense.

I am not sure if that would be enough, Kaladin got his spite cut multiple times before he needed a refill. However, it is a viable tactic albeit a difficult one.

True, but even slightly damaging them is still an improvement compared to current situation where they have no other option other than Shardblade or Radiants Surges. I do concede that it would probably not be too effective, unless you somehow managed to get the explosive inside the rock.

Thank you for the clarification. That Listener tradition is interesting, very honorable. I guess it makes sense that Singers that turned their back on Odium would incline towards Honor again.

Heavy weapons and artillery would drain a lot of stormlight to stop Radiants, but it would be much simpler to just use Aluminum based weapons and Scadrians do know they are effective against invested individuals.

High explosives targeted at Thunderclasts to open them to Aluminum poisoning from a long distance would be effective and since they are so large they would make relatively easy targets for heavy artillery. Heavy artillery would probably shatter the stone Thunderclasts are made of.

I still think most of you are missing the potential of metal arts especially @Frustration, but I concede that I can't convince you of what I think is possible. Oh I actually trust the Coppermind more than WoB's since it seems to be the current distillation of the WoB's. One thing about the WoB's is that any quoted could be out of date, but the Coppermind is kept more up to date and has the most current understandings of how the Cosmere works because it is constantly being updated as we go forward. So I guess you could say I reject the request not to use it as reference when possible. I would admonish each of you to examine the Scadrian powers and consider how their combination might prove useful in a conflict. True not all of them would provide direct one on one martial potential, but if we are talking about a war many would provide balance altering support for it even on Roshar.

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5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Heavy weapons and artillery would drain a lot of stormlight to stop Radiants, but it would be much simpler to just use Aluminum based weapons and Scadrians do know they are effective against invested individuals.

Aluminum is also exspencive as crap, it's probably worth more than gold at this point.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

High explosives targeted at Thunderclasts to open them to Aluminum poisoning from a long distance would be effective and since they are so large they would make relatively easy targets for heavy artillery. Heavy artillery would probably shatter the stone Thunderclasts are made of.

Aluminum won't do anything to Thunderclasts. and Without any penetration explosives are going to be largly ineffective.

 

I don't see a single way any common user of metalic arts could defeat a Thunderclast.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A decent line up though it seems to me that Scadrian Tech is more like just pre WWI Since they have cars. The range of artillery also seems short for the period since artillery range could potentially be miles and or thousands of yards depending on the piece. Also using aluminum for projectiles and shrapnel  would be effective against all but 4th oath Radiants and Someone mentioned thunderclasts.  Oh the flack used against Windrunners and Skybreakers could be Aluminum too. Thunderclasts if they could even be used off system would be vulnerable to heavy artillery since stone is still brittle and they are a huge target making them easy to hit from far away.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

High explosives targeted at Thunderclasts to open them to Aluminum poisoning from a long distance would be effective and since they are so large they would make relatively easy targets for heavy artillery. Heavy artillery would probably shatter the stone Thunderclasts are made of.

The cars Scadrial has are still a novelty item, so still around 1880s. The do not have any flack guns (at least 20 years of tech development needed there), so no reason to consider that.

Aluminum is investiture inert, it does not actively suck out investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364 , you can also see it on Coppermind if you do not like WoBs), so it would do little to Thunderclasts (as those are not really reliant on healing which aluminum would prohibit). Heavy artillery would be more useful against Thunderclasts, but if you destroy one body they can simply make another one, as you did nothing to Thunderclast itself.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You make a good point that if the fight happens on Roshar Scadrians would be at a disadvantage, but also at this point it would need to be since Radiants are trapped there. Bronze mistings could guard against sneak attacks by Radiants or Fused since they are natural detectors and Tin eyes could detect other attempted sneak attacks. I don't think enough Windrunners would get through the machine guns and artillery to make that much difference. All the Scadrian Tech can be transported into the CR so fleeing to CR to sneak and Attack would leave those who do more not less vulnerable to attack, or do you think that all of the tech would be moved back to the PR on Arrival? The ultimate detector from Scadrial would be a Windwhisper/Sentry. They would be nearly impossible to sneak past.

Scadrial has strictly no way of going in or out of CR outside of Shardpool and they do not know where that is (much less if you could transport heavy machinery through it). On Rosharan end the only usable perpendicularity is Cultivations and that is underwater, so considering that any invasion would quickly end right there.

If Scadrians are somehow on Roshar (as was posited by ScadrianTank), then they still have no proper access to CR outside of Shardpool, so unless all the fighting is in Horneaters peak (where a lot of their tech would have difficulty due to terrain) they have no way to defend against attacks from CR. So yes, I assume all Scadrial tech has to be in PR, because otherwise they are stuck in CR and have nothing to do.

Windrunners could simply attack machine guns by lashing large stones at them, after softening them up like this they could go for kill. Artillery is not precise enough to help against airborne Windrunners, outside of few lucky shots. Also Lightweaving is 'quiet' enough to be undetectable by Alerters, it is entirely possible that Bronze misting could not detect it, allowing Lightweavers to get close enough to strike.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrial is at the point where it could quickly ramp up its industrial production and innovation to produce arms for war, but the same can't be said for Roshar.

Scadrial barely progressed in the last ~300 years. By end of Era 1 Scadrial has canned goods (~1810), well developed and mainted canal system (17th century, but also much earlier) and knowledge of gunpowder weapons (suppresed by TLR, 17th century). In addition Words of Founding contained hints of electricity and flight. In the 300 years, Scadrial has effectively progressed by maybe ~150 years if we are being generous, they are quite bad at innovation as a culture. In our world, between hints of electricity (~1750s) and radio is 150 years. SoScad seems to be doing better, but we have too little information, and the posited question considered only Elendel Basin.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Jasnah is only one person and could be overwhelmed by numbers and detected long before she could strike, don't count on the CR there would likely be troops there as well and She would be without Plate or Blade there. Again Aluminum based weaponry would be lethal especially in the CR against Radiants of any kind regardless how much stormlight they have.

Scadrial has no way to coordinate between  CR and PR, so troops would most likely not be there as they would have to split their force in two (which is already much smaller than Rosharan force) and hope they could be in roughly the same spot (so they would have to be on some form of ship, limiting their options).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I still think most of you are missing the potential of metal arts especially @Frustration, but I concede that I can't convince you of what I think is possible. Oh I actually trust the Coppermind more than WoB's since it seems to be the current distillation of the WoB's. One thing about the WoB's is that any quoted could be out of date, but the Coppermind is kept more up to date and has the most current understandings of how the Cosmere works because it is constantly being updated as we go forward. So I guess you could say I reject the request not to use it as reference when possible. I would admonish each of you to examine the Scadrian powers and consider how their combination might prove useful in a conflict. True not all of them would provide direct one on one martial potential, but if we are talking about a war many would provide balance altering support for it even on Roshar.

On the other hand I think you are missing a lot of limitations of metallic arts, both in ability and in logistics of them.

You would do better not to trust Coppermind too much, there is a reason entire section of forum is dedicated to corrections (not to say that Coppermind is bad, just that when primary sources are available, it is useful to at least check them). It for example has not yet been fully updated with information from RoW, or from new WoBs from December. By relying on it too much you ignore newer developments.

On the other hand I would invite you to consider more of Surges and limitations of metallic arts (and what aluminum mechanically does).

Edited by therunner
Rephrased the last few sentences to sound less confrontational
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21 hours ago, Frustration said:

Aluminum is also exspencive as crap, it's probably worth more than gold at this point.

Aluminum won't do anything to Thunderclasts. and Without any penetration explosives are going to be largly ineffective.

 

I don't see a single way any common user of metalic arts could defeat a Thunderclast.

War is expensive we haven't been discussing the economics of a possible conflict.

Aluminum will block any healing ability, repel the spren in their gem heart and potentially interfere with whatever investiture makes them function.

The thunderclast would be demolished long before any metal arts needed to be used, but if it got in range leechers might drain it of the investiture that gives it life or just use leecher infused allomantic grenades for the purpose.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

The cars Scadrial has are still a novelty item, so still around 1880s. The do not have any flack guns (at least 20 years of tech development needed there), so no reason to consider that.

Aluminum is investiture inert, it does not actively suck out investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364 , you can also see it on Coppermind if you do not like WoBs), so it would do little to Thunderclasts (as those are not really reliant on healing which aluminum would prohibit). Heavy artillery would be more useful against Thunderclasts, but if you destroy one body they can simply make another one, as you did nothing to Thunderclast itself.

Scadrial has strictly no way of going in or out of CR outside of Shardpool and they do not know where that is (much less if you could transport heavy machinery through it). On Rosharan end the only usable perpendicularity is Cultivations and that is underwater, so considering that any invasion would quickly end right there.

If Scadrians are somehow on Roshar (as was posited by ScadrianTank), then they still have no proper access to CR outside of Shardpool, so unless all the fighting is in Horneaters peak (where a lot of their tech would have difficulty due to terrain) they have no way to defend against attacks from CR. So yes, I assume all Scadrial tech has to be in PR, because otherwise they are stuck in CR and have nothing to do.

Windrunners could simply attack machine guns by lashing large stones at them, after softening them up like this they could go for kill. Artillery is not precise enough to help against airborne Windrunners, outside of few lucky shots. Also Lightweaving is 'quiet' enough to be undetectable by Alerters, it is entirely possible that Bronze misting could not detect it, allowing Lightweavers to get close enough to strike.

Scadrial barely progressed in the last ~300 years. By end of Era 1 Scadrial has canned goods (~1810), well developed and mainted canal system (17th century, but also much earlier) and knowledge of gunpowder weapons (suppresed by TLR, 17th century). In addition Words of Founding contained hints of electricity and flight. In the 300 years, Scadrial has effectively progressed by maybe ~150 years if we are being generous, they are quite bad at innovation as a culture. In our world, between hints of electricity (~1750s) and radio is 150 years. SoScad seems to be doing better, but we have too little information, and the posited question considered only Elendel Basin.

Scadrial has no way to coordinate between  CR and PR, so troops would most likely not be there as they would have to split their force in two (which is already much smaller than Rosharan force) and hope they could be in roughly the same spot (so they would have to be on some form of ship, limiting their options).

On the other hand I think you are missing a lot of limitations of metallic arts, both in ability and in logistics of them.

You would do better not to trust Coppermind too much, there is a reason entire section of forum is dedicated to corrections (not to say that Coppermind is bad, just that when primary sources are available, it is useful to at least check them). It for example has not yet been fully updated with information from RoW, or from new WoBs from December. By relying on it too much you ignore newer developments.

On the other hand I would invite you to consider more of Surges and limitations of metallic arts (and what aluminum mechanically does).

Flak is simply a timed explosive so Scadrial does have the tech to produce artillery with that capability and lots of bullets would have the same effect. Bye, Bye most Radiants along with all other soldiers. Scadrial also has mechanical flying machines which further implies near 1920's tech. Though the air ships might imply an even higher level of tech.

One of the premises of this discussion is that Rosharan's and Scadrians are able to engage in the conflict and Scadrians are on Roshar so they had to get their through the CR somehow, but for now we know invested Rosharans cannot travel the other way.

Surges can be countered by Aluminum and Anti-light though what each does is different. Scadrial also has the metal ability to quickly determine the Anti-light weakness.

Oh and I do keep in mind surge limitiation and possibilities, but since the discussion in gerneral favors Radiants I see no need to ellaborate on Radiant advantages (which in my opinion many have been undersold because their advocates seem more concerned with down playing Metalic advantages instead).

Aluminum turns off, neutralizes, and blocks investiture. If used with the intention of being a spike it does the same thing as it does allomantically. Wipe investiture, and perhaps more completely that leaching. One interpretation of what it does Hemalugically is to remove the ability to use investiture going forward. Almost like it breaks a person's connection to investiture. Personally in the case of Radiants I think it will do to stormlight what it does to metals allomanically. Erase it. if instead it removes a persons ability to use investiture period it would be very devastating.

I interpret that when Navani says stormlight acts like liquid it is her way of saying it has wave properties just like regular light does. Light in the Cosmere is invested just like metal. One example of this is White Sand. It does require some means just like metal to be used though.

Coppermind does have links to current relevant Primary sources for its articles. The WoB is full of outdated material.

We don't know where the Scadrians arrive on Roshar. The peaks are possible, but so is anywhere the Highstorm touches during a HighStorm (it has been theorized that it is Honors Perpendicularity while the peak pool is Cultivations).

I will grant Scadrial has potentially smaller forces, but their weapons enable much more wide scale killing and their best weapons will work where ever they are. Coordinating between realms only takes 2 Seon's. Even though the forces would be split the majority would still be in the PR as with Scadrian weapons they would need fewer to defend the CR based on the limit of forces that could be brought against them. Jasna could be gunned down long before her soulcasting in the CR would become a major threat.

The range and accuracy of windrunners is much less than that of guns and artillery. Besides in war why would you use a gun of any kind in the open if you didn't need to.

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

War is expensive we haven't been discussing the economics of a possible conflict.

Economic warfare was back on like page 30ish.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum will block any healing ability, repel the spren in their gem heart and potentially interfere with whatever investiture makes them function.

The thunderclast would be demolished long before any metal arts needed to be used, but if it got in range leechers might drain it of the investiture that gives it life or just use leecher infused allomantic grenades for the purpose.

Not likely, Spren are not universally repelled by aluminum, Fused use it, and The Sibling had tons of it inside of them. Leeching a Thunderclast would be like disrupting a Kandra by leeching.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Flak is simply a timed explosive so Scadrial does have the tech to produce artillery with that capability and lots of bullets would have the same effect. Bye, Bye most Radiants along with all other soldiers. Scadrial also has mechanical flying machines which further implies near 1920's tech. Though the air ships might imply an even higher level of tech.

It's not an earth Airship, it's not even possible without metalic arts. And hitting someone in the air would be the shot of a lifetime.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Surges can be countered by Aluminum and Anti-light though what each does is different. Scadrial also has the metal ability to quickly determine the Anti-light weakness.

No they don't, if bronze lent itself so heavily to the discovery of anti-investiture it would have been found earlier. Even with tht Rhythms which are basically the same thing it took over seven thousand years for anti-investiture to be discovered.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum turns off, neutralizes, and blocks investiture. If used with the intention of being a spike it does the same thing as it does allomantically. Wipe investiture, and perhaps more completely that leaching. One interpretation of what it does Hemalugically is to remove the ability to use investiture going forward. Almost like it breaks a person's connection to investiture. Personally in the case of Radiants I think it will do to stormlight what it does to metals allomanically. Erase it. if instead it removes a persons ability to use investiture period it would be very devastating.

Again, and I feel like I mention this every three pages, you have to hit a very specific region of the heart in order to preform hemalurgy.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Coppermind does have links to current relevant Primary sources for its articles. The WoB is full of outdated material.

So if you have the links, give us the primary sources.

And 9 times out of 10 the Arcanum will tell you if there are contradicting WoBs

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

We don't know where the Scadrians arrive on Roshar. The peaks are possible, but so is anywhere the Highstorm touches during a HighStorm (it has been theorized that it is Honors Perpendicularity while the peak pool is Cultivations).

But it isn't Honor's perpendicularity, Dalinar doesn't yank the Highstorm around whenever he opens Honor's Path, and the Stormfather wasn't even aware of Ishar opening it.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I will grant Scadrial has potentially smaller forces, but their weapons enable much more wide scale killing and their best weapons will work where ever they are. Coordinating between realms only takes 2 Seon's. Even though the forces would be split the majority would still be in the PR as with Scadrian weapons they would need fewer to defend the CR based on the limit of forces that could be brought against them. Jasna could be gunned down long before her soulcasting in the CR would become a major threat.

Seon's are from Sel though, so Scadrial doesn't have them.

Edited by Frustration
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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Economic warfare was back on like page 30ish.

Not likely, Spren are not universally repelled by aluminum, Fused use it, and The Sibling had tons of it inside of them. Leeching a Thunderclast would be like disrupting a Kandra by leeching.

It's not an earth Airship, it's not even possible without metalic arts. And hitting someone in the air would be the shot of a lifetime.

No they don't, if bronze lent itself so heavily to the discovery of anti-investiture it would have been found earlier. Even with tht Rhythms which are basically the same thing it took over seven thousand years for anti-investiture to be discovered.

Again, and I feel like I mention this every three pages, you have to hit a very specific region of the heart in order to preform hemalurgy.

So if you have the links, so us the primary sources.

And 9 times out of 10 the Arcanum will tell you if there are contradicting WoBs

But it isn't Honor's perpendicularity, Dalinar doesn't yank the Highstorm around whenever he opens Honor's Path, and the Stormfather wasn't even aware of Ishar opening it.

Seon's are from Sel though, so Scadrial doesn't have them.

The Sybling was one spren that made up the tower. A highly advanced spren at that.

If your fighting for survival you would spare no expense. Gems from fallen foes would be valuable on Scadrial as well.

It may not be an earth air ship but it is still mechanical they just use allomancy instead of fossil fuels.

There may not be an equivalent anti-investiture on Scadrial. We are talking about destructive interference in waves and metals have no such thing. Anti-metal investiture is pure speculation with no supporting evidence like you complain I was doing. Seekers detect the rhytms of investiture.

No you don't need to hit the heart for hemalurgy. Each power has a specific target to where it must be hit and there are dozens of them especially when the metal can have potentially many powers like steel or iron then you must hit the person in a very specific place and put it in the recipient in another specific place. Some do require the heart, but that doesn't mean aluminum does, for that matter it is from my perspective that anywhere will do for it like some others do. An aluminum hemalurgic spike doesn't transfer any powers to others it is entirely an anti-investiture spike. I suspect that aluminum handcuffs will be used in Era 3 to contain invested individuals with tiny spikes to pierce the skin.

Ishar is a bondsmith herald and practically a walking perpendicularity. The Highstorm is likely to be honors perpendicularity, but what Dalinar does is an unbound bondsmith perpendicularity where he connects the 3 realms.

I wouldn't bet on that since Shallon got hers from a scadrian based organization.

When are you going to come up with some possibly interesting uses of Radiant powers instead of just rehashing the same old things?

I even gave you some ideas earlier in the conversation, but you ignored them in favor of criticizing my Metal art ideas instead. Even Khriss in BoM thinks that twin combinations are potentially very powerful and interesting, why don't you see it?

Oh and also in BoM Wax did get much stronger and more resistant to damage when tapping his metalmind to push the train car as indicated when he pushed from the car and couldn't push as hard because he couldn't tap as much weight so was both weaker and more likely to crush himself if he pushed as hard as he could. He was only an Iron Ferring so was very limited in how much weight he could store.

Really though I am surprised you are still responding to me because you said you thought this topic was over. If your responding because you want to convince me your opinion is right know this no matter how many times you say the same things it wont convince me because when I have looked up your references I didn't interpret them the same as you. So I am afraid what it comes down to for me is that we just disagree and we will need to see what happens next.

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It may not be an earth air ship but it is still mechanical they just use allomancy instead of fossil fuels.

Also to drop it's weight

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There may not be an equivalent anti-investiture on Scadrial. We are talking about destructive interference in waves and metals have no such thing. Anti-metal investiture is pure speculation with no supporting evidence like you complain I was doing. Seekers detect the rhytms of investiture.

Magic in the Cosmere works on an unified theory https://wob.coppermind.net/events/339/#e10234 

Once you understand the basic principles the magic of the Cosmere makes sense https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14662

Energy matter and Investiture are interchangeable https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5093

Anti-investiture is a long standing part of the Cosmere https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623

All shards have their own anti-investiture, it wouldn't make sense with what we know for them to not.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No you don't need to hit the heart for hemalurgy. Each power has a specific target to where it must be hit and there are dozens of them especially when the metal can have potentially many powers like steel or iron then you must hit the person in a very specific place and put it in the recipient in another specific place. Some do require the heart, but that doesn't mean aluminum does, for that matter it is from my perspective that anywhere will do for it like some others do. An aluminum hemalurgic spike doesn't transfer any powers to others it is entirely an anti-investiture spike. I suspect that aluminum handcuffs will be used in Era 3 to contain invested individuals with tiny spikes to pierce the skin.

You need to hit a very specific region to steal an atribute.

Bind points are mainly a concern for the recipient https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12283

Most are stolen form the heart https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7870

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Ishar is a bondsmith herald and practically a walking perpendicularity. The Highstorm is likely to be honors perpendicularity, but what Dalinar does is an unbound bondsmith perpendicularity where he connects the 3 realms.

The Stormfather, Syl, and Ishar have all called it Honor's perpendicularity. If the Highstorm were Honor's perpendicularity you would think that they would mention that instead of just saying "it moves"

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I wouldn't bet on that since Shallon got hers from a scadrian based organization.

This is Scadrian vs Rosharan magics, that has become Scadrial vs Roshar, this isn't Scadrial and all the stuff it has stolen from other worlds vs Roshar and the stuff it has stolen from other worlds.

*Shallan

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

When are you going to come up with some possibly interesting uses of Radiant powers instead of just rehashing the same old things?

When there is a reason to get more creative, Scadrial hasn't shown itself to be enough of a threat for me to need to be more creative.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I even gave you some ideas earlier in the conversation, but you ignored them in favor of criticizing my Metal art ideas instead. Even Khriss in BoM thinks that twin combinations are potentially very powerful and interesting, why don't you see it?

Intresting sure. Powerfull enough to singlehandedly stop the Rosharan Warmachine? nope.

And again I already gave you a Rosharan Win scenario, but you "didn't see the point" and until you reply to it I'm not going to offer you more.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and also in BoM Wax did get much stronger and more resistant to damage when tapping his metalmind to push the train car as indicated when he pushed from the car and couldn't push as hard because he couldn't tap as much weight so was both weaker and more likely to crush himself if he pushed as hard as he could. He was only an Iron Ferring so was very limited in how much weight he could store.

I can't understand what you are trying to say.

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Really though I am surprised you are still responding to me because you said you thought this topic was over. If your responding because you want to convince me your opinion is right know this no matter how many times you say the same things it wont convince me because when I have looked up your references I didn't interpret them the same as you. So I am afraid what it comes down to for me is that we just disagree and we will need to see what happens next.

And let you get the last word? not happening.

Edited by Frustration
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