Syl Interlude Discussion

[Cheat Commando]

9 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

U know that would kind of noice. Like maybe they could break barriers and marry.

I doubt they could reproduce even with Shardic intervention

But they could adopt a Spren or a human child or both

After reading her conversation with Dalinar, I'm thinking that this is totally where Syl's and Kaladin's relationship is heading. She wants to understand Kaladin and is willing to go so far as to change her nature to accomplish that.

But I'm going to take it one step beyond.

I think this conversation is foreshadowing of Syl's eventual transformation into a fully Physical "human" being, forsaking her spren life to become a mortal so she can be with Kaladin.

Hmm... I think I ship Syladin now....

[Goatbringer]

22 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Is Kaladin Michael Jordan-ing? After Michael Jordan's father died, he quit basketball for a time to play baseball, the sport his father always wanted him to play. Eventually he came back to basketball. 
Has Lirin died and in his guilt and grief has Kaladin abandoned fighting to become a surgeon as he thinks he needs to make amends to his father? This could all be part of his journey to the fourth Ideal. He failed to protect his father and he's still struggling with his failure here.

I love this. The back half of the series is just Kaladin smoking cigars and reminiscing on his 1998 season and talking about how the Lopen dyed his hair and never showed up to Bridge 4 practice. 

We'll call it The Last Windrun. 

[agrabes]

4 hours ago, Aglaia said:

On the whole, I agree with your other thoughts, but I don't think, that he is still a soldier. 

Syl thinks, "Perhaps he would be satisfied as a surgeon, and it would be good for him to not have to kill anymore." 

 

Agreed - finally decided to sign up for the newsletter so I could read this section and that is also what I took from Dalinar's comment.  The impression I got is that Kaladin has been forced to do things he that are hard on him morally in the war during the last year or so and it's weighing heavily on him.  Dalinar saw that he was about to crack and had him change duties for a while.

[Mage of Lirigon]

24 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Agreed - finally decided to sign up for the newsletter so I could read this section and that is also what I took from Dalinar's comment.  The impression I got is that Kaladin has been forced to do things he that are hard on him morally in the war during the last year or so and it's weighing heavily on him.  Dalinar saw that he was about to crack and had him change duties for a while.

That was my take as well. Not only does it reflect well on Dalinar as a commanding officer, it also shows that the stable of Windrunners has expanded to the point where Dalinar can feel comfortable doing this.

The conversation with Syl and the Stormfather was very enlightening. I think it was foreshadowing some pretty serious divisions among Radiant and spren in terms of what they should expect from each other. I'm looking forward to that conversation, since I hope it'll feed back into fixing the misunderstanding between spren and humans regarding the Rerecreance.

[Starla]

Syl’s comment that she senses "contentment, not pain” from Cord’s Shardplate eases my mind a bit about the spren trapped in fabrials. I have always been concerned for the fabrial spren and questioned the ethics of it, but I assume they would have a similar level of sentience and capacity to feel pain as the Shardplate spren. Perhaps the contentment comes from being useful in a way that is appropriate to their nature. I still hope to learn more about how being trapped in a fabrial affects the spren in the Cognitive Realm and whether they have any awareness of their predicament. 

This interlude makes me feel both concern and hope for Kaladin's well being and progression as a Radiant. I can imagine it has not been easy for him if he's been on front lines fighting against the Singers for the past year. I feel that violence is not in his nature, and his inner conflict revolves around whether he needs to kill to protect. If Dalinar has pulled him out of the fight and assigned him to surgeon duty, perhaps it will give him the time and clarity to see some alternatives to the endless fight between humans and Singers. Rather than fighting, is there a way to bring the two species together and empower the Singers to stand up against Odium and the Fused, so they are no longer available as meat suits? If Kaladin can work toward this kind of nonviolent solution, he will be able to protect many more lives and help resolve his own inner turmoil about causing harm to others. I hope this is the direction he’s moving in.

[USS bridge four]

2 hours ago, Goatbringer said:

I love this. The back half of the series is just Kaladin smoking cigars and reminiscing on his 1998 season and talking about how the Lopen dyed his hair and never showed up to Bridge 4 practice. 

We'll call it The Last Windrun. 

In this analogy would Moash be Horace Grant? Is Rock or Teft Scottie? Anyways this was a really good chapter and its fun reading Syl's perspective and I think this might be one of the first interludes. 

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

Syl’s comment that she senses "contentment, not pain” from Cord’s Shardplate eases my mind a bit about the spren trapped in fabrials. I have always been concerned for the fabrial spren and questioned the ethics of it, but I assume they would have a similar level of sentience and capacity to feel pain as the Shardplate spren. Perhaps the contentment comes from being useful in a way that is appropriate to their nature. I still hope to learn more about how being trapped in a fabrial affects the spren in the Cognitive Realm and whether they have any awareness of their predicament. 

This interlude makes me feel both concern and hope for Kaladin's well being and progression as a Radiant. I can imagine it has not been easy for him if he's been on front lines fighting against the Singers for the past year. I feel that violence is not in his nature, and his inner conflict revolves around whether he needs to kill to protect. If Dalinar has pulled him out of the fight and assigned him to surgeon duty, perhaps it will give him the time and clarity to see some alternatives to the endless fight between humans and Singers. Rather than fighting, is there a way to bring the two species together and empower the Singers to stand up against Odium and the Fused, so they are no longer available as meat suits? If Kaladin can work toward this kind of nonviolent solution, he will be able to protect many more lives and help resolve his own inner turmoil about causing harm to others. I hope this is the direction he’s moving in.

It's the sapient spren that kinda worry me. Soulcasters and the Regrowth fabrial were likely made with Radiant spren like Syl who actually have minds. It never really bothered me that the mindless spren were used to make fabrials, but it definitely bothers me that a spren with a mind like Syl or Pattern could be trapped for thousands of years. 

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

It's the sapient spren that kinda worry me. Soulcasters and the Regrowth fabrial were likely made with Radiant spren like Syl who actually have minds.

We do not know this.

[+Spicker]

4 hours ago, Cheat Commando said:

After reading her conversation with Dalinar, I'm thinking that this is totally where Syl's and Kaladin's relationship is heading. She wants to understand Kaladin and is willing to go so far as to change her nature to accomplish that.

But I'm going to take it one step beyond.

I think this conversation is foreshadowing of Syl's eventual transformation into a fully Physical "human" being, forsaking her spren life to become a mortal so she can be with Kaladin.

Hmm... I think I ship Syladin now....

I don't completely ship it, but I'm not against it potentially happening. 
I don't know why, but the idea of Syl trying to change the nature of her bond to understand and help Kaladin better gave me total Queen Tsa vibes for some reason. I couldn't help but feel that Syl is wanting to do something new with the bond in this chapter, we just don't know exactly what that entails. Is it something that has never been done before?

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

It's the sapient spren that kinda worry me. Soulcasters and the Regrowth fabrial were likely made with Radiant spren like Syl who actually have minds. It never really bothered me that the mindless spren were used to make fabrials, but it definitely bothers me that a spren with a mind like Syl or Pattern could be trapped for thousands of years. 

The spren associated with the oathgate spoke of a bond and promise regarding the oathgate, and they did not seem in pain nor express any regret having watched the oathgate for centuries alone without any other interaction. Syl also speaks of thousands of years as a short time/new. So spren see time and such service differently than us. I do not think it is as traumatic as that. Though it is illegal to "fish" for lesser spren in the cognitive realm. But my theory is that is because the lesser spren don't have a choice in the matter. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Though it is illegal to "fish" for lesser spren in the cognitive realm. But my theory is that is because the lesser spren don't have a choice in the matter. 

It could also be for "environmental" reasons or simply because doing so is disruptive.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Karger

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

4 hours ago, Starla said:

This interlude makes me feel both concern and hope for Kaladin's well being and progression as a Radiant. I can imagine it has not been easy for him if he's been on front lines fighting against the Singers for the past year. I feel that violence is not in his nature, and his inner conflict revolves around whether he needs to kill to protect. If Dalinar has pulled him out of the fight and assigned him to surgeon duty, perhaps it will give him the time and clarity to see some alternatives to the endless fight between humans and Singers. Rather than fighting, is there a way to bring the two species together and empower the Singers to stand up against Odium and the Fused, so they are no longer available as meat suits? If Kaladin can work toward this kind of nonviolent solution, he will be able to protect many more lives and help resolve his own inner turmoil about causing harm to others. I hope this is the direction he’s moving in.

This got me thinking, what if one of the fabrial advances that Navani has made is a healing fabrial like the one Nale uses to bring Szeth back?

Kaladin could become the ultimate combat medic, and the barrier that he is struggling against, namely the inability to lose people, would mostly be resolved. I don't want Kaladin to swear the fourth ideal if it involves some sort of moral compromise, but if it really is "I will save only those that I can save" and he's basically a flying Paladin (Kaladin the Paladin) then that's not even a compromise, that would just be plain awrsome!

Edited July 8, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Typos, always typos

[joesleepsalot]

Finally got to read this interlude. 
 

The main thing that stood out to me was Kaladin is sleeping a bit better—despite him still having depression which Syl is trying to alleviate. To me, this signifies that he FINALLY has caught a break and hasn’t racked-up a bunch of new reasons to be depressed. My 2 cents, we are just seeing Syl and Dalinar pick up/help his emotional train wreck—- perhaps he was sent to do surgery specifically to be with his parents?? All speculative until we have more but I think that things are looking better for him. 
 

TBH I’m gonna be pretty annoyed if this book is another Kaladin beat down. Lol. 
 

Next piece that stood out to me was this: “Then blackness took her. A fuller blackness than the absence of light. It was the split moment that her father could create. Time was a funny thing. It was always flowing along in the background like a river, but bring too much power to bear, and it warped. It slowed; it wanted to pause and take a look. Anytime too much power—too much Investiture, too much self—congregated, realms became porous and time behaved oddly.”

As far as we know, the Stormfather has initiated this moment with Kaladin every time it’s happened, save once: Kaladin asks him to spare the human prisoners at the beginning of OB. 
 

Not exactly a solidly founded guess, but I’m inclined towards a hunch: perhaps Kaladin naturally brings a certain amount of investiture to a storm, something we don’t know of yet other than “Child of Tanavast”, “There is some Wit in you”, his mother’s bloodline, and the fact that Syl chose him out of millions/is convinced he’s the champ.  
 

I HATE the phrase “I feel like”, but I’ll use it here: I feel like there’s something happening/hidden in this piece. 

[+honorblades]

4 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

Not exactly a solidly founded guess, but I’m inclined towards a hunch: perhaps Kaladin naturally brings a certain amount of investiture to a storm, something we don’t know of yet other than “Child of Tanavast”, “There is some Wit in you”, his mother’s bloodline, and the fact that Syl chose him out of millions/is convinced he’s the champ.  

As much as I dislike authors leaning into the whole "chosen one" thing, I do agree there is definitely something going on here. Kaladin seems destined to be more than just the leader of the Windrunners.

[Isilel]

"Anytime too much power—too much Investiture, too much self—congregated, realms became porous and time behaved oddly."

This makes me wonder if the apostate Heralds' odd perception of time which was highlighted in OB, is related. Shalash "losing centuries to dream", Nale being surprised and disturbed when confronted with decayed stuff in his old caches, etc. They are highly invested individuals, after all, due to channelling unlimited power through their direct connection to Honor in the past. 

Also, I have a strange feeling that the prophecy in Puuli's Interlude in OB somehow has to do with it, too. And if some Radiants figured out how to leave Rosharan system during the Recreance, wouldn't it have made sense as an alternative to killing their spren to go somewhere where time passes very slowly? Hm...

I love very much that we again see Syl interacting with  people who are not her bondmate. She used to do it a lot back in WoR and Pattern did some too, but then in OB there was much less of it - to avoid making Renarin and Glys very obviously stand out as odd and suspicious, I imagine. Hopefully, now this will continue and expand.

 

On 8.7.2020 at 4:06 AM, Hoid's secret? said:

So from the conversation between Syl and the stormfather, we see that she wants or at least hopes Kal to be Honor's champion or play a major role in the future. But the stormfather isn't convinced.

Kaladin being the champion is the most obvious/expected direction to go, but since OB I am leaning towards Szeth being the anti-Odium side's champion in the end and the battle of champions being Szeth against Nale. Book 5 is the Skybreaker book, after all, it would make sense for them to have the pride of the place, rather than Kaladin yet again, sigh.

 

On 8.7.2020 at 5:32 AM, Harbour said:

Just like Aragorn, Kaladin has healing hands, and like Aragorn, he will certainly return better and as the king in the end of Book 4 or Book 5. Thats classic journey of this type of protagonist.

I really hope not. Been there, done that more times than I can count. Give me something fresh.

 

On 8.7.2020 at 5:53 AM, Rainier said:

 I wouldn't be surprised to see Navani get more POV time than Dalinar, or perhaps Kaladin.

We're going to see weapons of war, powered by stormlight. I'm getting stoked.

Well, I remember a WoB that Kaladin will have more page-count in RoW than in OB, so, sadly, I can't see Navani topping that. But Dalinar will have less than in WoR, IIRC, so yes.

 

On 8.7.2020 at 0:40 PM, cfphelps said:

Most of my thoughts have been covered by others, but I do want to say that it's possible Dalinar gave Kaladin additional duties leading/training the surgeons, that adds to but doesn't replace being a soldier.

Shouldn't Dalinar have some professional surgeons/doctors who are better qualified for that? Kaladin certainly has a lot of experience with field medicine and his father trained him well, but he was just 15 when he left for the army. It would feel very contrived to me if he somehow turned out to be the bestest medical professional in Urithiru. Training soldiers in field medicine while working on his own skills as a surgeon would make more sense, IMHO. Also, there are a lot of non-combat duties that a Windrunner is uniquely suited to perform - running messages, transporting people, working an Oathgate, safe-guarding airship tests, scouting without engaging, checking on the problems of various settlements, etc.  It would be a waste for Kaladin to wholly concentrate on things that normal people can do as well or better than he, at the expense of things that are completely beyond their capabilities, but well within his. IMHO, YMMV.

 

Quote

Would carrying a dead blade that has so much bad history with Kaladin, not to mention discouraging any spren bonding be a factor to Rock's decision? 

Carrying a dead blade didn't prevent Dalinar, Eshonai or Ehlokar(!) from attracting Radiant spren. So far only Syl has been completely repelled by the dead-eyes. After this chapter we can't even say that all the honorspren would share her attitude.

 

Quote

Syl mentioning The Lopen spren suggests that they've been continuing to work together over the time gap, so hopefully regardless of Kaladin's new duties, he still works with Bridge 4 closely. 

I expect that a number of the members of  Bridge 4 are now Knights with spren of their own. The fact that Kaladin can stand down from combat duty strongly suggests this. So, they'll now be more than his appendages and while the friendship will endure, it would feel  unnatural for them to still be joined at the hip. Rather like Star Trek movies, you know? Where all the bridge crew logically should have long had the ships or high-level positions of their own, but they are kept together in a highly contrived fashion. Those members of Bridge 4 who remain his squires will continue to be his entourage, of course.

But that's another problem with Kaladin wholly devoting himself to surgery  - a 3rd Oath Windrunner is more than a single person with surges and a shardblade, with his squires he is a whole platoon of the same. Kaladin's choices would potentially severely limit his squires usefulness too. It isn't like all  or even most of them are medically inclined.

I loved that Syl's first knight was into creating infrastructure, and I'd like to see more non-traditional Order members, but Our Heroes also live in a situation where there is no slack. And even Relador, who lived in an era with thousands of other Radiants and no Fused had to fight in the end...

 

On 8.7.2020 at 1:18 PM, thejopen27 said:

Kalak refers to Jezrien as "My Lord," Jezrien was the one elected to both wait for Kalak to tell him of their plans to abandon the oathpact, and it was Jezrien who went to the humans to tell them they won the war in the end.

So, in the prelude where Kalak and Jezrien actually interact, he calls Jez by his name. "My lord's own blade" from WoR prologue refers to Honor, as in "honorblade" = "my lord's own blade", IMHO. Judging by Shalash swearing by Adonalsium, the Heralds didn't necessarily see Honor as a god, and even if they did "lord" would be an appropriate appelation to use, as it is iRL. Etc.

 

Quote

 Maybe some did consider Ishar the leader, but Jezrien is the one shown exhibiting leadership. Post Jezrien's madness, Nale and maybe others go to Ishar for advice, but that doesn't mean it was always that way.

All the fundamental decisions that the Heralds made were Ishar's ideas. He came up with them and convinced the others to follow through. This is leadership. We haven't heard anything comparable about Jezrien.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Isilel

[thejopen27]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

So, in the prelude where Kalak and Jezrien actually interact, he calls Jez by his name. "My lord's own blade" from WoR prologue refers to Honor, as in "honorblade" = "my lord's own blade", IMHO. Judging by Shalash swearing by Adonalsium, the Heralds didn't necessarily see Honor as a god, and even if they did "lord" would be an appropriate appelation to use, as it is iRL. Etc.

All the fundamental decisions that the Heralds made were Ishar's ideas. He came up with them and convinced the others to follow through. This is leadership. We haven't heard anything comparable about Jezrien.

 

He calls Jezrien by name when talking to him directly (it's also stated Jezrien refuses to wear a crown so he likely refuses to let his friends give him a title), but when referring to Jezrien's honorblade, he calls Jezrien my lord. He doesn't say one of my lord's blades he says my lord's own blade, implying one lord, one blade. All the heralds, including Kalak on his own don't want to go back and decide not to, but Ishar, the expert in magical theory tells them he thinks the oathpact will still hold with one member. It never says it was Ishar's idea or that he proposed it, just that Ishar was the one who gave the technical clearance to the idea. Kalak also thinks during the prelude that Jezrien "always knows what to do" implying the others turn to him for leadership.

Ishar helped form the Oathpact as he was previously a bondsmith, but there is no evidence it was his idea. The best evidence that Jezrien is viewed by the others as the leader is that he is the one who waits for Kalak and the one who speaks to the humans. He takes the duties upon himself, the shameful difficult duties while the others slink away. Ishar forges the Nahel bonds into the Knights Radiant, but since he is the only one capable of doing this and he is the arcane expert it doesn't confer any special rank upon him.

Ishar is now going around giving terrible advice to Nale who appears to be working alone with Ishar's advice, but no other Heralds are working with him that we know since Kalak doesn't appear to have joined Nale's quest.

I agree with you that Kaladin is likely hiding from his responsibilities by only being a simple surgeon. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by thejopen27

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Well, I remember a WoB that Kaladin will have more page-count in RoW than in OB, so, sadly, I can't see Navani topping that. But Dalinar will have less than in WoR, IIRC, so yes.

Could you find that? I don't remember that one.

[Goatbringer]

22 hours ago, USS bridge four said:

In this analogy would Moash be Horace Grant? Is Rock or Teft Scottie? Anyways this was a really good chapter and its fun reading Syl's perspective and I think this might be one of the first interludes. 

I was thinking Moash was more of a Karl Malone.

[+Child of Hodor]

Wow! What a generous, info-loaded chapter Brandon gave us.

My take on Syl’s mental issues is she got her brain wiped when she crossed over to begin bonding Kaladin. When we first met her she barely remembered her own name. She’s still relearning things. 

Her two brains comment doesn’t seem much different from the average person. We have our important list of things we *have to* do and then all the things we want to do. Superego and Id to ham-handedly reference psych terms. 

She’s associated with the winds/storms through Honor, she has the personification of that in her. Desire to behave like the wind and roam. Winds can change direction quickly, her focus changes quickly. 

Her chapter feels like Eshonai’s prologue where she is there for an important meeting but wants to wander around exploring the palace. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Starla]

So if Rock is the nutaoma of his clan, does make Cord a real Horneater Princess? And one with Shardplate. I am very intrigued by her and hope we see more of her. She was also mentioned in the Lift interlude that was released a while back. She had left a basket of food for Lift with a jar of jam with a heart drawn on it, which is very sweet.

 

14 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

My take on Syl’s mental issues is she got her brain wiped when she crossed over to begin bonding Kaladin. When we first met her she barely remembered her own name. She’s still relearning things. 

I didn't get the sense that there is anything specifically wrong with Syl's mental state. I'm wondering if spren process things in a more non-linear or non-temporal fashion than humans, so their minds are aware of many things simultaneously rather than one thing at a time. It would align nicely with comments by the various Nahel bond spren that they know how the surges work once their radiants know it. Or how Syl says that once she found Kaladin, she always knew him. I  think her odd perception of time in the highstorm may also be related to this. 

[+Child of Hodor]

1 minute ago, Starla said:

I didn't get the sense that there is anything specifically wrong with Syl's mental state. I'm wondering if spren process things in a more non-linear or non-temporal fashion than humans, so their minds are aware of many things simultaneously rather than one thing at a time. It would align nicely with comments by the various Nahel bond spren that they know how the surges work once their radiants know it. Or how Syl says that once she found Kaladin, she always knew him. I  think her odd perception of time in the highstorm may also be related to this. 

Yeah, I saw others use "illness", I downgraded it to issues, but maybe that's too strong. 

On a separate note I like how "Bondsmith Did It!" answers a ton of our questions. Likely, Ishar did all the things Syl rattled off with the help of the Dawnshard *people boo* (I know, I know!) that binds all creatures voidish and mortal per WoK ch. 36 epigraph.

 

[Brgst13]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:25 PM, GoWibble said:

So I took this to mean that the Bondsmith Herald discovered the Nahel bond. Also, how did a Bondsmith create the Heralds at all?

Just to clarify, Ishar created the Nahel bond after humans had rediscovered Surges.  He then formed the Orders to circumscribe the powers of Surges with laws and rules (Way of Kings epigraphs)

[+Child of Hodor]

I really don’t want Syl to become a “real girl” and date Kaladin. I don’t think that’s where it’s going either.

Kaladin being a surgeon will give him a break to figure some things out. It’s a diversion, he can’t protect people by being a total pacifist like his dad, but the time away from killing will help him with his 4th ideal.

Also, Syl openly assuming Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion all but guarantees it won’t be him right? He’s sort of the obvious choice anyways. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Karger]

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Also, Syl openly assuming Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion all but guarantees it won’t be him right? He’s sort of the obvious choice anyways. 

We don't exactly know what is going on with the champion business but couldn't Dalinar appoint whoever he wants?

[VeeDree]

10 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I really don’t want Syl to become a “real girl” and date Kaladin. I don’t think that’s where it’s going either.

Kaladin being a surgeon will give him a break to figure some things out. It’s a diversion, he can’t protect people by being a total pacifist like his dad, but the time away from killing will help him with his 4th ideal.

Also, Syl openly assuming Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion all but guarantees it won’t be him right? He’s sort of the obvious choice anyways. 

I personally don't think it would be Kaladin either since he seems to be the obvious choice. The same way how I don't think Dalinar will become Honor since it seems the obvious choice as well.   I still think Kaladin has an important/siginificant role to the story, however. There's more to him with all the Child of Tanavast business. 

This interlude gives us so much new info, yet in the grand scheme of things, there are still so many things we don't know. I can't wait to read the book.