The song of Spren

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I just took a quick look at Oathbringer chapter 121 (I assume this is what you're referring to) and I don't see Stormfather admitting any control over the Oaths (only the knowledge that Lopen wasn't ready before). Lopen's theories notwithstanding, I don't see how Stormfather would allow Syl's bond. Or Spark's. And what about Cultivation/Nightwatcher? And the Sibling?

Nah, you're right here. Syl actually says so in the end of WoR. The Stormfather acts as a witness of some type, but he doesn't actually have the power to deny the oaths. Not sure why exactly he's involved, but he is somehow. 

 

[+Harrycrapper]

On 10/29/2019 at 5:26 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Could you point me to the source of this? I recall Stormfather saying "These Words … are accepted" but in this case he only accepted Dalinar's Third Ideal.

I referenced the Coppermind for this one. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Summary:Words_of_Radiance#Chapter_84 

It's in the third paragraph of that section. Maybe the person was paraphrasing, I recall him saying that but you could be right and I'm confusing it with Dalinar's. I recommend rereading that chapter to verify that. I would, but it would probably send me on a Stormlight bender that I do not particularly want to go on while I'm in the middle of re reading The Dresden Files.  

[MountainKing]

On 10/29/2019 at 2:30 PM, Invocation said:

Nahel bonds with singers weren't possible. Something changed. Now they are, judging from Venli. That's as much as I know.

I actually think Nahel Bonds with singers were always possible, they just didn't do them for some reason. Maybe something to do with why Venli's spren can only speak thru the rhythms.

[Kon-Tiki]

I'm pretty sure the only reason Rlain isn't a Squire at this point is because he (and everyone around him) thinks its impossible

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

43 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

I'm pretty sure the only reason Rlain isn't a Squire at this point is because he (and everyone around him) thinks its impossible

Very good point . A lot Powers in the Cosmere work like that : off perception . After making this post I have adjusted my theory . I used to think that Singers had to be in a certain form . Now I’m slowly growing to the conclusion they have to perceive that it’s possible and in the case of Rlain wanting to a windrunner , want to protect . It’s possible the windrunners are not for him , I think he would be better suited as an Edgedancers .

[Nnatel]

I'll put it here without referencing previous people because I fell like it'll only create mess. But here we go.

First of all, I believe Tanavast had more control over Nahel bond and KR than Stromfather has now. If it is true (I am not saying it is, just to be accurate) this would probably give him an ability not to accept an oath (though it doesn't sound likely). But I don't think this was the case.

Secondly, yes, Intent could have played the part, but I don't feel like it was the original issue. The bond wasn't possible at all at the beginng - just note that it never says WHO promised it could be done. (I can't find whether we know how old are certain songs, I feel like we don't know but if I'm wrong than please correct me). And it totally makes sense to me that it was Odium. Even more, that sounds like this promise might have played a part it switching sides. The spren stopped coming to Singers and they agreed to Odium sending them Regals etc. Just that sounds like more than only spren
 

Quote

It has been promised and it can come.
Or do we understand the sum?
We questioned not if they can have us then,
But if we dare to have them again.

If it was so, than after Listneres escaped Odiums influence - they would probably view a bond as impossible again and here we have a part with Intent coming to play. This was impossible for a long time so it is viewed as such by both people and Listeners (so it can be the case with Rlain). 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Nnatel I think the clue is In the song as to the reason why , thank you for your input . I was trying to get help deciphering this thing . A lot of people have given opinions , few have even tried to look at the song a rationalize what the answer is . Which I feel is the way to figure out what Brandon reason was for writing it.

[Kon-Tiki]

Honestly I think Rlain goes Windrunner just as soon as he and an honorspren figure out its possible

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 minute ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Honestly I think Rlain goes Windrunner just as soon as he and an honorspren figure out its possible

I don’t . He is bridge 4 , no doubt . But so is Renarin . You don’t have to be a windrunner to be bridge 4.  Rlain is a listner . One of the ideals of Edgedancers is they Listen to those who are forgotten. Plus there are nobody to Heal parshendi . There anatomy’s is different than humans , so if more Singers are to come over to the Radiants side that is something they will need. So I’m hoping he will be an edgedancer . I heard others in this group hope he will be a Bondsmith . I’m cool with him being a windrunner , I just hope for something better .

[KandraAllomancer]

On 31.10.2019 at 5:21 PM, Harrycrapper said:

I referenced the Coppermind for this one. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Summary:Words_of_Radiance#Chapter_84 

It's in the third paragraph of that section. Maybe the person was paraphrasing, I recall him saying that but you could be right and I'm confusing it with Dalinar's. I recommend rereading that chapter to verify that. I would, but it would probably send me on a Stormlight bender that I do not particularly want to go on while I'm in the middle of re reading The Dresden Files.  

I looked it up, and here is the fragment:

Quote

I FORBID THIS.
YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!

(...)

THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED, the Stormfather said reluctantly.

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Quote

I FORBID THIS.
YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!

(...)

THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED, the Stormfather said reluctantly.

 

Syl is a special case . She is his daughter and the last of a special Line of Spren . Stormfather did not want to risk her dying so he tried to forbid her bond . I don’t think he would do this  unless it was Sylprenia. However because Singers side with Odium he might not approve of his spren going to Singers .

[Bigmikey357]

One thing to note, none of the Shards can deny entry into their magic system if that person meets the conditions. So even if Tanavast were alive he could not prevent someone from a bond if that person and the Spren met the conditions to merge. 

There are things a Shard can control within it's magic system. They can adjust the set conditions for entry like Sazed did with the snapping. They can straight up grant access like Edgli does with the Returned or what Culti presumably does with the Old Magic. They can even use the magic of their system to destroy someone, much like what Odium threatened to do to the Fused on the battlefield of Thaylen City.

This is all to say Tanavast being alive could not have effected the Nahel bond so much as to straight deny Singers its use. I believe that the Singers of old, with their greater alignment with the CR, deliberately chose to deny themselves the use of the Bond. They likely didn't get as much power from the Bond as a human would. Those Singers were fighting humanity at the time and probably saw Odium as a better alternative because they got more juice outta his magic than Honor's. Venli and Timbre are both a part of a new generation not bound to the enmities of the past, it would make sense to me that Venli has become the forerunner for the Singers who prefer to serve Honor rather than Odium. I therefore anticipate some Singer Knights emerging. Agree with @Calderis, form should have nothing to do with it. Timbre was originally Eshonai's Spren to bond and she was getting pushback in both Warform and Stormform. Venli has been in both Stormform and Envoyform and none of these forms seemed to make the progression to the First Oath either easier or more difficult.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

. Agree with @Calderis, form should have nothing to do with it.

I agree that I was wrong about what Rlain said , I interpreted it wrong . But I ask you to Consider this only Regals and Fused can use surgebinding under Odium system . The 5 basic forms do not allow them access to surges . We don’t know if BAM can bond with the 5 base forms or not we only know that dullform makes you immune to Bam and Odium influence. So I propose Forms have everything to do with how Singers access the surges due to thier anatomy . Under Odium system they can only use certain surges in certain forms. It may be so under honor system as well. . Not because of Honors system but because of singer anatomy . They are more subservient in warform . They are hard to focus in mateform. So how could a singer in mateform develops themindset of a windrunner to want to protect everything . How one in dullforn form the mentality of a edgedancer to listen . How can one in warform develope the ideology of a Bondsmith ! They need to be in a form that allow them free thinking to meet the ideals of honor’s Radiant spren . Thus in envoy form Venli is free of mind to choose to be Willshaper . So my friend I know @Calderis is usually right , but his judgement can be wrong . And I say Form has everything to do with a singer forming a Nahel bond with the appropriate ideology and the appropriate spren 

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I agree that I was wrong about what Rlain said , I interpreted it wrong . But I ask you to Consider this only Regals and Fused can use surgebinding under Odium system . The 5 basic forms do not allow them access to surges . We don’t know if BAM can bond with the 5 base forms or not we only know that dullform makes you immune to Bam and Odium influence. So I propose Forms have everything to do with how Singers access the surges due to thier anatomy . Under Odium system they can only use certain surges in certain forms. It may be so under honor system as well. . Not because of Honors system but because of singer anatomy . They are more subservient in warform . They are hard to focus in mateform. So how could a singer in mateform develops themindset of a windrunner to want to protect everything . How one in dullforn form the mentality of a edgedancer to listen . How can one in warform develope the ideology of a Bondsmith ! They need to be in a form that allow them free thinking to meet the ideals of honor’s Radiant spren . Thus in envoy form Venli is free of mind to choose to be Willshaper . So my friend I know @Calderis is usually right , but his judgement can be wrong . And I say Form has everything to do with a singer forming a Nahel bond with the appropriate ideology and the appropriate spren 

Eshonai spoke about this when she muses about forms in WOR. They can influence a person's thinking and attitude but it's up to the person themselves to be a form's master and not the other way around. Otherwise no one would ever be able to change forms at all. Now would it be difficult for a Singer to pick up a Spren that's incompatible with the form they're in at the moment? Absolutely. But it shouldn't be impossible and I don't think that it is. Besides, a Nahel Spren isn't looking at day to day activities per se, but at the soul of a being it seeks to initiate a bond with. A person's soul informs that person's actions; if Spren are looking at actions it's likely to confirm that what they saw in that person's soul that attracted them in the first place matches up.

Then again, the only example we have of watching a bond progressing from the beginning, three books in, is Kaladin/Syl. Spren are somewhat monolithic within their own Order but wildly vary from Order to Order. That could be just an Honorspren thing; it's been said that Honorspren are more discerning than others.

All I can say is that Eshonai has held multiple forms in her life cycle but she's always had the soul of an adventurer. Timbre had her eye on Eshonai for a while and didn't change her mind about bonding even when she went to Stormform. Eshonai always strived to master her forms though, and I'm sure she isn't that big an outlier in this respect. So maybe it's like this. Singers/Listeners will always have more trouble forming a Nahel bond, both because of their closeness to the CR and because their form changes can cause interference. So if a Singer/Listener wants to attract a Nahel Spren they must first be the type of person who is not dominated by the form they take. Their soul must be solid for a bond to take hold.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

53 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

All I can say is that Eshonai has held multiple forms in her life cycle but she's always had the soul of an adventurer. Timbre had her eye on Eshonai for a

Eshonai is a good example and I’m glad you made it . Eshonai was 3 different people , in nimble form she was curious and  adventurous . In War Form she was a leader and aggressive and wanted to make peace with Dalinar. Then she adopted  Storm form and was taken over by the form. She was willing to put her own mother with the group to be executed . Yes she allowed them to escape but everyone saw her philosophy switched .

     While Timbre was there , I think Timbre was hoping to convince Eshonai into a Form that she could think again . What end up happening was a Fused tried to take over her body , and she resisted and Timbre helped her resist . I doubt she would have been able to on her own. I don’t not think the bond would have went any further while Eshonai was in Storm , a form filled by a hate void spren which altered her thinking to far outside the ideals of a willshaper 

[Bigmikey357]

59 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Eshonai is a good example and I’m glad you made it . Eshonai was 3 different people , in nimble form she was curious and  adventurous . In War Form she was a leader and aggressive and wanted to make peace with Dalinar. Then she adopted  Storm form and was taken over by the form. She was willing to put her own mother with the group to be executed . Yes she allowed them to escape but everyone saw her philosophy switched .

     While Timbre was there , I think Timbre was hoping to convince Eshonai into a Form that she could think again . What end up happening was a Fused tried to take over her body , and she resisted and Timbre helped her resist . I doubt she would have been able to on her own. I don’t not think the bond would have went any further while Eshonai was in Storm , a form filled by a hate void spren which altered her thinking to far outside the ideals of a willshaper 

Yet by your definition Venli should never have been able to bond with Timbre. Why would a higher form from Odium result in a person who is more able to resist? That seems like poor planning to me.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Yet by your definition Venli should never have been able to bond with Timbre. Why would a higher form from Odium result in a person who is more able to resist? That seems like poor

I don’t understand how ? Timbr said most of his family by humans forsake their vows . So she wanted to bond a Singer . I don’t know what lightspren ideals are but some higher spren like ash ( dustbringer ) and pattern ( lightbringer) don’t have any problem with killing or deceit . Venli main focus is knowledge . She is appalled by the Fused and how they kill The host to inhabit a body . She wants the Singers to not be oppressed but she isn’t evil . She is no different than Navani in her morals . And I have no idea what kind of spren was in her gemheart . I know it wasn’t a hate spren like stormform. But even in Stormform she was not completely taken over as Eshonai was . Like you said she dominated the form while Eshonai let the form dominate her. Anyways , Timbre has completely subdued the spren inhabiting her gemheart and envoy form allows her to think clearly enough she can meet the requirements. Of Timbr ideals . Now if Timber was an Honorspren I doubt she could hold up to the protect virtue of that ideal . Anyways I just want someone besides me to acknowledge that forms and the way dawnsingers minds work in each form is very important to this process. A statement like what form she in doesn’t matter is obviously inaccurate ! 

[Bigmikey357]

@SzethIsBadAsHell

I didn't say form wasn't important at all in regards to bonding. That would be an oversimplification. But form cannot be the only factor. The soul of a person has to play a role as well because the soul of the person will dictate how that form is expressed.  A form alone won't deter a Spren attracted to a Singer,nor will a form alone attract a Nahel Spren. 

I disagree that Eshonai was totally dominated by Stormform. Yes her personality changed drastically from her warform incarnation but I don't believe that, had she lived, that the change would have been permanent. Remember, Stormform was unlike any form she had ever taken, she was bound to be swamped by it at first. But she could have learned to master the form with time. Venli had much more experience with voidforms so it looks like she was better able to master them when we see her in the narrative.

What I was saying in regards to my earlier comment is that if forms were the be all end all then Venli should have been even less able to fight the form's influence and gain a bond with Timbre. It's not even about the Spren at this point. It's about the form. Stormform is a form of power but those that take that form aren't considered Regals, right? It's a lesser voidspren that grants that form. Envoyform however is a Regal voidform and thus the gem heart holds a more powerful Spren, closer to Odium. His influence should have crowded out any honor-ish type influences, it should have completely enslaved her mind to him. That obviously didn't happen. Because it didn't happen that way, we can make a conjecture. One of two things happened. Either Venli was so special that she could shake off Odium's influence while wearing a form that should have prevented that very thing from happening, or the forms only influence thought and not soul, and soul is what a Spren looks for.I think it's the latter. YMMV.

[Calderis]

The form influencing their ability to bond is... Definitely a factor, but it is not all or nothing. 

6 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Eshonai is a good example and I’m glad you made it . Eshonai was 3 different people , in nimble form she was curious and  adventurous . In War Form she was a leader and aggressive and wanted to make peace with Dalinar. Then she adopted  Storm form and was taken over by the form. She was willing to put her own mother with the group to be executed . Yes she allowed them to escape but everyone saw her philosophy switched .

She was not three different people. 

In warform she longed for the freedom she had before responsibility was thrust upon her. She was determined, but frustrated by the chains that held her to her duty. 

And for Stormform... Well... Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

Quote

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

And does [Odium] control the Voidbringers through the spren in the same way that the Inquisitors were controlled by Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

There are definitely-- In fact what you have just seen with Eshonai shares an awful lot with what happened in Mistborn.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

The fact that Eshonai resisted enough to allow the listener "prisoners" to escape, which she did as Ulim comments on how Eshonai resisted the Form, shows the extent of Eshonai's strength, because regals are quite literally mind controlled to the point that it feels like their own thoughts. 

Which lso shows how much Timbre has helped Venli. In her first PoV she says that she can't attune the old rhythms, only the new ones. And yet the moment Timbre appears she attune an old one, and over the course of the book it's clear she is not controlled even to the extent that Eshonai was. 

Her forming bind, and Timbre's increased strength due to it, are the only reason Venli is able to be more than a puppet, in complete contradiction to what her form should be doing to her. 

[ScavellTane]

I dont think its Timbres increased strength but the type of voidspren she was up against that was more of a factor on her success.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Calderis and @Bigmikey357 perspective has merit . The Dawnsingers are in my opinion. One of the most intriguing races I have ran across in fantasy . I’m sure all our opinions will be revealed in book 4. I think it’s amazing to discuss our theories and make valid arguments . Whether Eshonai was dominated or not is just a matter of opinion . I respect how you guys see it. For the record . I Liked Eshonai a lot better than Venli . Eshonai deserved to be a Radiant more than Venli . Venli can and will mostly Likely redeem herself . But let’s not forget she was so hungry for power and forms she willingly colluded with Ulim. I do think spirit does play a part as Big Mikey said . I just word it differently . I say the dawnsinger must meet the ideals of the Radiant spren . The ideals are set by the character of of the dawnsinger . If you want to interchange spirit. For character that works for me too. Character can change for a singer or at least be more difficult if they are not in the right form . Venli shouldn’t be able resist , Timbr suppresses her voidspren and gives her clarity . Without Timbr she could still resist , but I think Odium could stoke her passion thru and Unmade like the thrill and should would be helpless in Envoyform . Cause the only Rhythms she could hear are Odiums.  I haven’t read any of the readings Form stormlight 4 . Do any of them have any insight into this ?

[Honorless]

@Harrycrapper, @Calderis I don't think that The Stormfather has a role in accepting the Oaths of other Orders aside from his own and that of the Windrunners.

Honor relegated the task of creating Honorspren to The Stormfather, remember? I think that's why he has a say on the Oaths of Kaladin & Lopen.

The only other instance of him having a say in a Bond is with Eshonai donning Stormform. But that one has 'storm' in its name, so there might be some mechanics involved. It actually isn't so bizarre that a Form of Power granted by Odium would go through a spren or Honor's system or Investiture. We know from both questions asked to Brandon and various instances from the books that Shards cannot just stop someone from utilizing their magic.

Quote

RandyD

Can a Shard just--like, say someone is using their magic system--can they stop the power from them being able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's a bit like stopping the laws of physics. So, while they can circumvent laws of physics and things like that, but if you wanted to stop someone from using magic, smiting them would be the efficient way of making that happen, if you are capable of it in the system.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

39 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Whether Eshonai was dominated or not is just a matter of opinion .

Considering the WoB, and the way we see her thoughts literally change midstream multiple times away from things she "shouldn't" be thinking about, I don't agree it is. 

41 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Eshonai deserved to be a Radiant more than Venli

Here, I very much disagree. 

The Willshapers are the most varied of the orders in tempermant... But the ways in which Eshonai and Venli are the same are the ways that matter. 

Eshonai was a literal explore, seeing new sights, and making her maps. Venli was an intellectual explorer, seeking new knowledge. 

Eshonai was ambitious, pushing herself to see sights no one had, ultimately to her peoples detriment. Venli was ambitious, and because of that was easily manipulated, ultimately to her people's detriment. 

Eshonai was crushed by responsibility and held to her duty, and grew frustrated by it. Venli was the "responsible" one while her little sister ran off to explore, and she grew to resent her sister because of it. 

Both follow the same ideals in very different directions, and both played a crucial role in the end of their people's resistance. 

Venli is the more culpable of the two, but they are not as different as people want to believe, which is part of why they had such a tense relationship. 

And being "good" does not make you more deserving of being a Radiant. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And being "good" does not make you more deserving of being a Radiant

Good argument , but I never said good was a requirement . My view on Eshonai is based on after she voted to kill Gavilar in a feeble attempt to stop the return of her God’s , she saw how the 6 year war had took its toll on her people . She sought and end to the fighting and arranged a meeting with Dalinar with those objectives in mind. We don’t know if Timbr was influencing this decision or not . But here is where Venli erred in my eyes . She was against the meeting or Eshonai viewpoint. She sought power as a means to crush the Humans. She hid the fact she was consulting with Ulim because she knew her people wouldn’t want help or trust a void spren . She knew that this could very well bring her Gods back and didn’t care. Or was at least wanted Power so much she was duped by Ulim . She wanted to show everyone she was the more useful sister , after all she discovered Storm form. When Eshonai told her of her meeting she tricked her into trying out the new Form first . Yes I know that Eshonai demanded to try the knew form , I think Venli knew that’s exactly what Eshonai would do . It’s what she has always done . Went off to explore and left her sister behind. She didn’t want peace with the Humans , she wanted to show the humans power and force them into leaving the listeners alone. Eshonai informing the 5 of Gavilars plan which Gavilar told her too do , and what Venli did is no where close to being the same on my morale scale . Yes Venli has seen the horror of 15,000 listeners die and the remaining 1000 being coerced into giving thier bodies up for Fused . She has seen her mistake. She has chosen the vows . Maybe being a Radiant is about atoning for all the bad rust you have done ., Kind of like Dalinar. If so then that’s the only way Venli deserves to be a Radiant  more than Eshonai . Up until the point she took Storm form , Eshonai was the sister who did more for the Advancement of her people . I can identify and respect the things Eshonai did . I found them honorable . Can u honestly say the same of Venli before she adopted Timbr.

[Calderis]

@SzethIsBadAsHell we don't know that any of that has any effect on what it means to be a Willshaper.

Eshonai explored land and expanded her peoples view of the world. Venli found new forms, including nimbleform, not just void forms, and invented a written language for the listeners. 

They both tried. They were motivated by their own desires. The only difference is one of moral judgement, which is why I brought up "good" to begin with. The objections people site for Eshonai over Venli nearly always come down to a moral judgement. 

That doesn't make either of them the better Willshaper.