The song of Spren

[+Harrycrapper]

13 hours ago, Honorless said:

@Harrycrapper, @Calderis I don't think that The Stormfather has a role in accepting the Oaths of other Orders aside from his own and that of the Windrunners.

Honor relegated the task of creating Honorspren to The Stormfather, remember? I think that's why he has a say on the Oaths of Kaladin & Lopen.

The only other instance of him having a say in a Bond is with Eshonai donning Stormform. But that one has 'storm' in its name, so there might be some mechanics involved. It actually isn't so bizarre that a Form of Power granted by Odium would go through a spren or Honor's system or Investiture. We know from both questions asked to Brandon and various instances from the books that Shards cannot just stop someone from utilizing their magic.

 

By that token, Syl couldn't be prevented from making a bond because she wasn't created by the Stormfather. Similarly, the Spren like Timbre could bond without his permission as well, but may have been prevented by Tanavast when he was alive. That could be the answer; it's not that the Stormfather is able to allow bonds to Singers where Tanavast would/could not, but that he is unable to prevent them as Tanavast did. Also, Odium threatened to take the investiture that gives one of the Fused persistent life if he didn't do as Odium wished, I don't see why Tanavast/Cultivation couldn't do similarly to a Spren that violated their orders. Although, whether they would do that is a different question than if they could do that, one I'm not sure we can answer definitively. On Eshonai, the Stormfather is traditionally how the Singers changed to their various forms, I think that's completely separate from the Nahel Bond. 

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

By that token, Syl couldn't be prevented from making a bond because she wasn't created by the Stormfather. Similarly, the Spren like Timbre could bond without his permission as well, but may have been prevented by Tanavast when he was alive. That could be the answer; it's not that the Stormfather is able to allow bonds to Singers where Tanavast would/could not, but that he is unable to prevent them as Tanavast did. Also, Odium threatened to take the investiture that gives one of the Fused persistent life if he didn't do as Odium wished, I don't see why Tanavast/Cultivation couldn't do similarly to a Spren that violated their orders. Although, whether they would do that is a different question than if they could do that, one I'm not sure we can answer definitively. On Eshonai, the Stormfather is traditionally how the Singers changed to their various forms, I think that's completely separate from the Nahel Bond. 

Well, by that logic Harmony shouldn't have been able to shape Scadrial because it was created by Preservation and Ruin, not him. He could do that because the planet was infused with both the powers, it didn't matter to the power who was holding it at some point in the past, only who is holding it now.

Stormfather was gradually given parts of Honor's power and duties, including to be able to create his spren. I don't think Investiture would  differentiate that a certain spren was created before the power was given to the Stormfather, just like Scadrial didn't differentiate that Harmony didn't create it. It shouldn't matter that Syl wasn't created by the Stormfather, only that the power to do so now belongs to him.

 

That's because 1) the Fused are Cognitive Shadows sustained by him 2) his Investiture isn't part of the Rosharan ecosystem like Honor's is 3) Odium's intent allows him to do that, Honor's doesn't (like how Preservation couldn't kill).

I didn't say Nahel Bond. Only a bond, which it was. I included that instance because it also featured the Stormfather having a say in a bond with spren.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

The power wasn't given to the Stormfather. 

The Stormfather is a Splinter. He created some Honorspren sure. The Cognitive Shadow of the Vessel of Honor merged with him. Not the Shard. The man. That added further Connection to the Shard that was... But the Stormfather is not Honor. Honor is Splintered. No one can be Honor until that's fixed.

The Stormfather can't deny oaths. Whatever his role is in "accepting" them, and for who doesn't really matter. Even a shard can't outright deny access to someone who has access to their magic system. Which is the entire reason I brought up that the pre-recreance spren may have actually sworn to not bond singers, because that is something that would work. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Calderis I would really like the ideals of the Willshapers. So I can get a better understanding of thier Order. Brandon always inserts a arcanum chart in the back of the book , listing fabrials and surges ; How great it could be if he inserted a chart listing all the ideals of all 10 Orders we have 1 order , the Skybreakers , that are close to being antagonist , I’m not sure if they will align with Odiums dawnsingers or the Dawnsingers that will hopefully turn against Odium. I’m not sure if the dustbringers will be on the Dawnsingers side or if Mullata is just a bad Apple . Anyways I don’t feel that way about Willshapers. I feel they will be a help , but I guess we all have to Read and find out .

[Calderis]

37 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Calderis I would really like the ideals of the Willshapers. So I can get a better understanding of thier Order. Brandon always inserts a arcanum chart in the back of the book , listing fabrials and surges ; How great it could be if he inserted a chart listing all the ideals of all 10 Orders we have 1 order , the Skybreakers , that are close to being antagonist , I’m not sure if they will align with Odiums dawnsingers or the Dawnsingers that will hopefully turn against Odium. I’m not sure if the dustbringers will be on the Dawnsingers side or if Mullata is just a bad Apple . Anyways I don’t feel that way about Willshapers. I feel they will be a help , but I guess we all have to Read and find out .

I don't expect that any order will be wholly one way or the other. I don't believe that's what the ideals are for. 

[Honorless]

Wait a minute... Nahel Bond with Singers weren't possible? How come?

Didn't the spren discover Nahel Bonds after the side switching with humans? I think that's the reason Radiant Singers hadn't been seen before, other than, as their Songs put it, "though broth are we, their meat is men".

Edited November 21, 2019 by Honorless

[Config2]

I'm pretty sure the Singers were "forbidden" to bond true spren, not unable. The Eila Stele seems to indicate that. This tradition, and/or direct orders from Honor was the reason it never happened pre-human arrival.

Eventually the Singers begin to follow Odium, and at that point it seems unlikely that the organized true spren (who were in communication with Honor), would have wanted to bond the Singers.

Now that Honor is dead, the most adventurous of the true spren is investigating whether or not a bond with Singers is bad idea or good idea, since Honor isn't around to tell them it is a bad idea. We know that even the other Reachers think it is a "foolish dream" if we assume that Captain Ico is Timbre's father. That might mean they think it is impossible, or that it is a bad idea. Either way it doesn't seem like the majority want to bond with Singers at the moment.

Basically, we have a reason why it didn't happen pre-humans, and post-turnover to Odium. And we have a plausible reason why it is beginning to happen now, but is very rare or unique. What I'm missing is the first desolation, where it was Honor+Singers against Humans+Odium (Maybe, we don't really know how directly Odium was involved. It could have been closer to Humans versus Singers without shards involved directly). If it was Honor+Singers against Humans+Odium, then I don't know why the Singers never bonded during that time as a way to protect themselves.

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Config2 I think the key to understanding is in the song of spren. That’s what this post was about . I wanted help deciphering the meaning behind that . 

[Config2]

15 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Config2 I think the key to understanding is in the song of spren. That’s what this post was about . I wanted help deciphering the meaning behind that . 

Well, we do only have 2 stanza's. We probably will get more in SA4, since we have a Singer focus.

I'm not sure those two stanza's give any actual information beyond speculation. They were written by a singer. Just because they are old doesn't mean that they had anything other than opinion. We can safely assume two things:

1. The stanzas are important, as they are written into WoR (irl WoR, not in-world) while other things aren't.

2. The singers (I think assuming this was a general consensus among the eventual Listeners at least), had the opinion represented by the stanzas. Line by line:

The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.

The singers felt betrayed the spren. Whether they actually were betrayed is unclear.
 

Our minds are too close to their realm

The singers believed that they were closer to the cognitive realm than humans. 
 

That gives us our forms, but more is then

The singers believed that being close to the cognitive realm gave them access to their forms. This has other in text support, and seems likely true.

Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can't provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men. ”

This seems to reference common belief among the Listeners, and presumably the older singers, that humans feel more deeply than singers do. Therefore they attract spren better. This isn't necessarily correct, however. We don't have any background for why this is, just our observations during the current SA time period that humans do attract more spren than singers.

 

But it is not impossible to blend
Their Surges to ours in the end.

This indicates that it was at least thought to be possible at some point.

It has been promised and it can come.

Someone, at some point, told the singers that this was a possibility. The general tone implies that this promise was supplied by a credible source.

Or do we understand the sum?
We questioned not if they can have us then,
But if we dare to have them again.

This is the most important line to me. It implies there is fear or trepidation about bonding spren. Beyond that, there is fear that the promise they will eventually bond spren could be a cause for concern rather than celebration.

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Config2 well argued . The betrayal they speak of was mainly Stormfather . Before Honor came he existed as one of 3 Gods. He is prinarily how they changed form . I’m not sure if the 10 spren the Radiants use were important . Or if any of the sub spren associated with the Radiant spren ( is Honor spren / wind spren . But the listeners were most effected by Stormfather .

[Config2]

14 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Config2 well argued . The betrayal they speak of was mainly Stormfather . Before Honor came he existed as one of 3 Gods. He is prinarily how they changed form . I’m not sure if the 10 spren the Radiants use were important . Or if any of the sub spren associated with the Radiant spren ( is Honor spren / wind spren . But the listeners were most effected by Stormfather .

I'm not sure I understand you.

The Listeners change form in a Highstorm, but that practice doesn't seem to have stopped at any point (except during right before the recreance). And the listeners we followers of Honor and Cultivation for thousands of years before humans arrived. When did the Stormfather betray them?

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

15 hours ago, Config2 said:

I'm not sure I understand you.

The Listeners change form in a Highstorm, but that practice doesn't seem to have stopped at any point (except during right before the recreance). And the listeners we followers of Honor and Cultivation for thousands of years before humans arrived. When did the Stormfather betray them?

There is moment in WoR  where Eshonai began to transform. Into Stormform , she looked up at Stormfather and said , “ you had once been a friend before you betrayed us “ ( I’m paraphrasing I don’t remember the exact words ) 

          This is why I believe they speak of Stormfather . I have no information about the listeners or Singers ever worshiping Honor and Cultivation . If you are referring to the Ele estele I think you have made a mistake . The Singers three gods were Stormfather , Nightwatcher , and The Spren of the Stone . When Honor and Cultivation arrived they co-0pted all three and those three told the singers to accept human kind . Not realizing that they were under the thrall of Honor and Cultivation the Singers accepted human kind . 

           I believe the Singers lost access to Stormfather which robbed them of the ability to change forms . Enter Odium , who promised new forms so they accepted . The Desolations began etc

       The listeners all took dullforn during the last Desolation called the false desolation . This is one BAM has linked with all the singers . At this time the listeners not wanting anything to do with Odium took dullforn . Thus when the Bondsmith imprisoned Bam , all the Singers were locked into slaveform . After thousands of years the listeners finally came out of dullforn and found Honor dead which gave them access to Stormfather again . They began trying to rediscover thier forms and could only manage 5 at the time if way of Kings

        I’m not saying I’m 100 percent this was put together after several rereads and lots of deductions . I suggest you reread Eshonai soliloquey to Stormfather and draw your own conclusions 

[Config2]

 

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There is moment in WoR  where Eshonai began to transform. Into Stormform , she looked up at Stormfather and said , “ you had once been a friend before you betrayed us “ ( I’m paraphrasing I don’t remember the exact words ) 

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Eshonai preferred a shield. It felt more like facing the Rider straight on. This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather - and he was not one of her people’s gods. In fact, the songs named him a traitor - a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners

This is the passage you mentioned I think (she repeats this thought to the Stormfather, but it is the same information). That betrayal seems unconnected to the changing of forms, but I suppose that it could be the betrayal, or part of the betrayal, that is mentioned in the Song of Spren.

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This is why I believe they speak of Stormfather . I have no information about the listeners or Singers ever worshiping Honor and Cultivation . If you are referring to the Ele estele I think you have made a mistake . The Singers three gods were Stormfather , Nightwatcher , and The Spren of the Stone . When Honor and Cultivation arrived they co-0pted all three and those three told the singers to accept human kind . Not realizing that they were under the thrall of Honor and Cultivation the Singers accepted human kind . 

This is not correct. The Gods of the Dawnsingers were, probably, Cultivation and Honor. We don't have a direct statement, but we know that The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and presumably the Sibling (or the spren of stone), were not quite sentient before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. I have a hard time believing that they could have commanded the Dawnsingers. We have no evidence that the Dawnsingers were not aware that Honor and Cultivation were present and guiding the three spren, if the three spren did directly address them.  In the Eila Stele, they refer to their gods, and to spren, stone, and wind. They aren't saying the spren, stone, and wind are their gods. And in the passage with Eshonai directly states that the Stormfather was not a God of the Listeners at least. The Gods of the Listeners were their ancestors, and by extension Odium (the Listeners feared their gods, and worked against their return. They did refer to them as gods however).  To me, it seemed the Dawnsingers worshiped the spren of the planet before Honor and Cultivation arrived, and then worshiped Honor and Cultivation. There was a lot of years between the arrival of Honor and Cultivation and the arrival of Odium. The wiki at least explicitly states that Honor was a god of the Dawnsingers.

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I believe the Singers lost access to Stormfather which robbed them of the ability to change forms . Enter Odium , who promised new forms so they accepted . The Desolations began etc

I doubt it. They still used forms without power after Odium arrived, and those forms were taken during the Highstorm. The Everstorm didn't even exist, so they had to change forms during the Highstorm until the arrival of Everstorm. It is possible that the only reason we see Parshmen change during the first Everstorm is that it was restoring their identities. I.E. They were in a form before the False Desolation, and when BAM was imprisoned, they turned to slaveform. When the Everstorm arrived, they returned to the form that was still part of their identity (more accurately, a form that was part of their parent's identity, or one that they had become marginally closer too during their years as slaves, or just a random form). We don't have any information that a Parshman can change between the common forms during a Everstorm, only that they can ascend to become a fused only during the Everstorm.

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After thousands of years the listeners finally came out of dullforn and found Honor dead which gave them access to Stormfather again . They began trying to rediscover thier forms and could only manage 5 at the time if way of Kings

We don't know how long passed before the Listeners regained the ability to change out of Dullform, but it was only about 2000 years (according to Jasnah) between the current day and the False Desolation. I doubt they were formless for more than 100 years, since living in Dullform for that long in the danger of the Shattered Plains would kill them pretty quickly.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, Config2 said:

Eshonai preferred a shield. It felt more like facing the Rider straight on. This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather - and he was not one of her people’s gods. In fact, the songs named him a traitor - a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners

“The Rider of Storms was a traitor, yes—but you could not have a traitor who had not originally been a friend. These storms belonged to her people. The listeners were of the storms.”

Excerpt From
Words of Radiance
Brandon Sanderson
https://books.apple.com/us/book/words-of-radiance/id717847678
This material may be protected by copyright.

you stopped your quote prematurely , there is more secrets in that chapter I’d like you to consider . I like how your mind works . You back up your arguments with logic that I can relate to . On this subject we will have to agree to disagree.

      The Rider of storms is very important to the Listeners . However , the Listeners are not the Singers .

2 hours ago, Config2 said:

This is not correct. The Gods of the Dawnsingers were, probably, Cultivation and Honor. We don't have a direct statement, but we know that The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and presumably the Sibling (or the spren of stone), were not quite sentient before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation

Strong disagreement , The Rider of the Storms has been around before Honor and Cultivation came . And the Nightwatcher is literally called the “ Old magic” I believe both of those existed pre Shard investment . The Dawnsingers considered them Gods . The Fused did not exist pre Odium as far as I can tell . Now if the Dawnsingers had some way of talking to thier ancestors before Odium we haven’t seen it .

During Oathbringer we know the singers have discovered all there common forms , they have access to dozens of forms . Artform and scholarform mentioned . But dozens more alluded too. 

“The singers wore mostly workform or nimbleform, though a few—like the femalen who had brought the water—wore scholarform, with long hairstrands and angular features.
She hummed to Fury. Her people had spent generations”

Excerpt From
Oathbringer
Brandon Sanderson
https://books.apple.com/us/book/oathbringer/id1198279804
This material may be protected by copyright.

these forms predate Odium so why did the Singers loose access to these forms ? The Listeners tried to discover them and were unable to on thier own . Something was missing . 

      So while I don’t know if the Everstorm can be used like a highstorn I think it can 

2 hours ago, Config2 said:

e don't know how long passed before the Listeners regained the ability to change out of Dullform, but it was only about 2000 years (according to Jasnah) between the current day and the False Desolation. I doubt they were formless for more than 100 years, since living in Dullform for that long in the danger of the Shattered Plains would kill them pretty quickly

Ok on this I agree in part but I do some additional insight . Before meeting Gavilar the Listeners were new to the area . They left Dark home . I’m not sure how long they were living there probably the whole 2000 years . They have been out of dullforn for about 5 generations . So I’m guessing 150 to 200 years . Long enough to discover nimbleform war and workform . They had only dullforn and mateform . So perhaps this is why they never left Darkhome . I’m really wondering if this is where the Aimians protect . I know it’s across the sea . Near the old Natanaten

anyways I still think Stormfather Robbed them of the ability to change forms . Thus they accepted Odiums offer of forms of power. The Listeners were the one faction that rejected Odium . Everyone else drank the koolaid. Odium would not have been so appealing had they had thier own forms .