Theory: To stop Odium

[RShara]

I wonder if in the end, in order to stop Odium, the Stormfather and Nightwatcher are going to have to sacrifice themselves to force their Intents onto Rayse.

 

We know that if a Shardholder dies, the power itself will eventually gain sentience.  If a Shard is Splintered, those Splinters can also gain sentience.  So just killing/Splintering Odium wouldn't be very useful, unless having hundreds of little pieces of Hatred running around is a good thing

 

But if the Stormfater and the Nightwatcher, joined their powers in with what Rayse already has, then his Hatred would be tempered with Honor and Cultivation (which implies protecting/growing). 

 

In the Chapter 71 Epigraph, we have this:

 

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.  He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

 

So if he is reunited with some of those virtues, it stands to reason he might then become a reasonable Shardholder, who would no longer run rampant across the cosmere.

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 18, 2014 by RShara

[Patrick Star]

Lift is going to eat Rayse and Odium, then turn them into Stormlight.  That'll keep them from killing more people.

[Terisen]

I wonder what this would mean then for Dalinar with his bond with the Stormfather.  It might imply that Dalinar would be the champion that would oppose Odium and would make for a bit of a redemption arc for the Stormfather, going from trying to destroy humanity to sacrificing himself to save it.

[RShara]

I was just thinking about that!

 

 

There's this Death Rattle:

And the night will reign for the choice of honor is life...

 

That could mean that at first, the Stormfather will refuse to do this, and so Odium "wins" for a while.  And Dalinar or others will have to find and convince the Stormfather to merge with Odium to save the world.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I like this a lot. We know Odium splinters shards instead of taking them, in order to preserve his intent, so forcibly changing his intent might work.

Although I'm not sure it would be from the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Odium was able to splinter two shards, and we don't know how much of their powers were splintered into the Godspren.

Along this thoery it seems more likely to me that Cultivation and whatever is driving Honor would have to splinter themselves and force those pieces onto Odium.

Edited May 18, 2014 by EMTrevor

[RShara]

Odium's splintered 3 shards--Devotion, Dominion, and Honor--that we know of.  Honorspren and the Stormfather are what are left of Honor.  Cultivation (possibly) splintered part of herself to create some types of spren and (maybe) the Nightwatcher.  Stormfather and Nightwatcher are the two most powerful spren that we know of.  Brandon has said that he doesn't want the cosmere to take the forefront in SA, so it's not likely that other shards will come into play.

 

That means that what we see is what we've got--Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and their spren.  I suspect that Honorspren/Stormfather are going to be the key players here, because some Honor tempering Hatred could be a powerful force for good instead of bad.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Do we specifically know Odium splintered Honor? I know Tanavast says that Odium killed him, but we know from previous shard deaths that it doesn't mean they sre splintered. From the visions, I had assumed that Tanavast had splintered himself already, which allowed Odium to kill him.

(Cue your WoB superpower to correct my false assumptions )

[Terisen]

That means that what we see is what we've got--Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and their spren.  I suspect that Honorspren/Stormfather are going to be the key players here, because some Honor tempering Hatred could be a powerful force for good instead of bad.

 

Honor with Hatred.  I wonder what that would look like.  Some sort of righteous indignation?  Hatred is such a powerful emotion but redirecting it towards constructive means would be, as you say, a powerful force.  Might that turn Roshar into some sort of Comeric utopia?  That would be interesting to see indeed.

[RShara]

There isn't a definitive quote, but Brandon lets it be implied that Odium splintered/killed him.  There's also these bits:

 

Q:  Did the splintering happen before the Recreance?
A:  I will reveal this as we go.  However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed.  So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

 

Q:  Was Odium able to splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?
A:  Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related...but mostly tangentially.  If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

 

Q:  Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?
A:  Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (not including the prelude).
Q:  So he could have survived the splintering...
A:  He could have survived the splintering.
Q:  ...as a mortal?
A:  Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...right.
Q:  ...passed away in his sleep.
A:  Right. (Indicating that Tanavast would not have passed away from old age)

Edited May 18, 2014 by RShara

[Fifth of Daybreak]

You never disappoint.

[Tempus]

I haven't posted my own theory on the splintering of shards, but I suggest that Odium probably can't have intents forced on him. Here's the logic.

 

• Shards can splinter themselves consciously (Endowment in Warbreaker is the best example)
• When Odium kills a shard, Brandon calls it splintering
• When Vin picked up Preservation, she had time before it would begin to change her with its intent

 

Thus, my theory is that what Odium does is kill the Shard (à la Vin), take up its Power and Intent, and then consciously make a whole bunch of splinters of its Intent until there is none of the intent left. This is corroborated by the WoB that say that neither Seons or Skaze were around pre-Odium, and also that the worldhopping on Sel is dangerous due to cognitive splinters running around crazy.

 

Given that scenario, I don't think you could force him to keep his intent. I'm also not sure splintering him is gonna be good either. I agree with you that a lot of little Odium splinters running around sounds dangerous (In fact I've got a little forum game on the backburner which is based on that premise).

 

I might suggest that the reverse makes more sense - kill Odium, and give his shard to some other Shardholder with an intent that can counterbalance it, like Sloth, Stupidity, Mistakes, Apathy, or Scaredypants (which is a confirmed Shard  ).

Edited May 18, 2014 by Tempus

[RShara]

From the WoBs that I pasted right above, a Shardholder CAN survive the Splintering.  So killing a Shard is not the same as Splintering it.  Also, a Shardholder dying doesn't necessarily Splinter the Shard.

 

There is a WoB that if Harmony were to die, he would drop Harmony, not Preservation and Ruin, so it seems that once Intents are intermingled, they tend to stay together.  I would think it'd take something like the shattering of Adonalsium to separate the Intents again.

 

Having someone else pick up Odium's Shard seems like it would be a lot more difficult.  First you'd have to find someone who could be a Shardholder, and then get them into the right position/circumstance/Spiritweb to be able to take up that power, and not immediately turn bad.  Then convince that new Shardholder, who may already be turning into Odium, to take in the power of the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.

 

It's certainly another method to go about it, though.

[Tempus]

From the WoBs that I pasted right above, a Shardholder CAN survive the Splintering.  So killing a Shard is not the same as Splintering it.  Also, a Shardholder dying doesn't necessarily Splinter the Shard.

 

I agree with this, I was lax in my terminology. What I mean by kill is 'remove the shardholder from the shard's power and intent'. In the one on-screen instance of this, the holder died. Thus my silly choice of words.

 

I agree that the Shardholder dying doesn't splinter the shard - I'm suggesting exactly that. The Shard must be splintered consciously by Odium after picking up the new Intent, it doesn't splinter automatically. Not only that, it takes him a while to splinter off all the intents.

 

 

There is a WoB that if Harmony were to die, he would drop Harmony, not Preservation and Ruin, so it seems that once Intents are intermingled, they tend to stay together.  I would think it'd take something like the shattering of Adonalsium to separate the Intents again.

 

Again, Shards can be splintered consciously. Presumably if Harmony wanted to, he could splinter off bits of Preservation or Ruin of himself. This process is probably similar to investing, as splinters are just big bundles of investiture.

 

 

 

Having someone else pick up Odium's Shard seems like it would be a lot more difficult.  First you'd have to find someone who could be a Shardholder, and then get them into the right position/circumstance/Spiritweb to be able to take up that power, and not immediately turn bad.  Then convince that new Shardholder, who may already be turning into Odium, to take in the power of the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.

 

It's certainly another method to go about it, though.

 

It needn't necessarily be a new person entirely. Cultivation is still around and alive. Though, in my mind, Cultivation + Odium would end up with something like Vengeance, so that doesn't sound too great. Since Splinters like the Stormfather or spren have cognitive aspects, you could even theoretically give the Shard power directly to one of them anyway. Though it's likely with their significantly decreased power, they may not have enough effect on the Intent (presuming these things scale by power). 

[RShara]

I agree that Splintering can be done voluntarily, but I don't know if they can divest themselves of the entire Intent.  Although it could be argued, I guess, that having just a little of the Intent left wouldn't be very useful.

 

What I'm thinking is that while Shards have the ability to Splinter themselves, that they have to retain a majority of the power or lose the ability to control it enough to do additional splintering.  Something like Shard > Total of all Splinters.  Assuming ( ) that's correct, then Odium wouldn't be able to divest himself completely of that Shard's power while holding it, otherwise most of it would escape him and possibly regain enough sentience to bring itself back.

 

Or I could be completely off base

[Ketek]

It needn't necessarily be a new person entirely. Cultivation is still around and alive. Though, in my mind, Cultivation + Odium would end up with something like Vengeance, so that doesn't sound too great.

 

I think Vengeance would be more Dominion + Odium.

 

Anyway, I think Odium's intent can only be changed if someone else takes it and another Shard at the same time, like Honor. So it's possible that they may try to reforge Honor, and then either give to someone to fight Odium, or beat Odium according to the rules of the Oathpact, and then merge both Shards together.

 

Together, I suspect it'd create something like Justice, which would be more than enough to prevent the new Shard from running around destroying worlds.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Ketek

[Tempus]

I agree that Splintering can be done voluntarily, but I don't know if they can divest themselves of the entire Intent.  Although it could be argued, I guess, that having just a little of the Intent left wouldn't be very useful.

 

What I'm thinking is that while Shards have the ability to Splinter themselves, that they have to retain a majority of the power or lose the ability to control it enough to do additional splintering.  Something like Shard > Total of all Splinters.  Assuming ( ) that's correct, then Odium wouldn't be able to divest himself completely of that Shard's power while holding it, otherwise most of it would escape him and possibly regain enough sentience to bring itself back.

 

Or I could be completely off base

 

Well, he'd still have the power from his original Shard. Also recall the scale of Shardic powers is huge. Kaladin can lash himself and a couple rocks. The Lord Ruler picked up Preservation and lashed the planet.

 

 

 

Edit: Odium and Honor sounds more like Retribution than Justice.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Tempus

[RShara]

Honor and Hatred sound like Batman.

[Khyrindor]

So, you guys remember the conversation Dalinar had with Hoid about putting Adonalsium back together? Yeah? I think that this theory will be true. Dalinar will take up the triple shard of Honor, and Cultivation, and then swiftly pwn the others to reform Adonalsium. He will make a promise to Hoid that he will cultivate the shards together, sort of, and then like....use the hatred of Odium to get the job done.

[Patrick Star]

Dalinar will take up the triple shard of Honor, and Cultivation, and then swiftly pwn the others to reform Adonalsium. 

 

Why?  And How?

 

Cultivation is still alive, so Odium will have to kill her for Dalinar to be able to pick up the Shard.  Also, Honor is shattered.  There's no feasible way for Dalinar to reassemble it and become Tanavest 2.0.

[Khyrindor]

there will be a way. He will do something. This is Sanderson.

[RShara]

I don't think that Dalinar will end up doing that.  First, the meta-reason, which is that we're again bringing the cosmere too much to the forefront.  Second, Dalinar isn't the type any longer to go on a rampage, killing people/Shards who've never done him any harm on the chance he might defeat Odium that way.  Far too Destination before Journey, Death before Life.

 

Tempus:  Nothing so far that would completely invalidate my theory.  Either of us could be correct, we don't know enough about how Splintering works to really nail it down.

 

Splintering does take "a long time" though, so if Odium had to pick up a Shard to Splinter it, wouldn't the Intent start to affect him at least a little?

 

We should ask Brandon if Odium has ever held any other Shards

[hoser]

An amazing question.  There are so many possibilities. 

 

At a meta-level, there are two 5 book story arcs.  If the Odium thing were solved within the first arc, the second wouldn't be very dramatic.  I baselessly speculate that the first arc will be about surviving the Everstorm desolation.  The second will be about dealing w/Odium somehow. 

 

There is an epigraph with a prophecy about the listeners coming to an accommodation w/the spren.  I further baselessly speculate that that will happen (with help from Rlain and the escaped listeners).  If that happens and the Voidbringers can be converted back, then the investiture Odium put into the stormspren becomes wasted and he is further invested.  The investiture of H+C+Adonalsium will also be working together. 

 

I imagine Odium would rather die than change, so I don't know how he is forced into an accommodation. I imagine that he would flee, leaving investiture behind and becoming weaker, rather than have his intent massaged.  OTOH, I can imagine him being contemptuous of his opponents, and prone to underestimate them, so maybe he can be trapped.

 

The interaction between the Everstorm and the Highstorms seems problematic.  Where they coincide, the land seems like it will be destroyed.  It might be as simple as the Stormfather timing the Highstorms so they coincide over water or wastelands, but I doubt it will be that easy. 

[Confused]

Odium will not be "stopped" during SA. On a meta- meta-level, there will still 10-15 Cosmere books left after SA is over. Since Odium is the one of the biggest baddies left (if not the biggest) among the Shards, he'll have to survive SA.

 

That means that the SA ending has to do with him somehow leaving the Roshar system, voluntarily or not, with Roshar intact. Odium will still be around to do hateful things elsewhere. Otherwise, Hoid wouldn't have anything to do...

[Tempus]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Brandon loves his twists! Spoiler free forum here, but the major antagonist almost NEVER turns out to be the one you originally were introduced to at the beginning. I have no idea why he would change that pattern. Odium is gonna be a red herring, Stormlight will probably cover his story (it being a major plotline of the Cosmere meta-narrative), then we're gonna get a 'break' for the Dragonsteel prequels (perfect time for a flashback), the Mistborn 2nd trilogy, and then off to finish off the meta-narrative with the Space Opera and a Cosmere concluding book (if he decides to write one) where we'll get to see the real conflict.

[RShara]

Yeah, Odium is probably the villain for Stormlight (or just really misunderstood), but I highly doubt he'll be the big villain for the cosmere.