Windrunners: a bit overpowered?

[Wicklander]

I love Brandon's magic systems. But I'm just wondering...did anybody think that by the end of WOR that Kaladin (windrunners) was a bit to powerful? That Brandon went a little overboard with the gravity surge and lashings?

Don't get me wrong, it's all still fantastic and stuff. But it's not he's like steel pushing or iron pulling. He's freaking flying through the air like a fighter jet. And he's not even done speaking the rest of the oaths, I think. (Nod to sazed)

[Aleksiel]

Technically he doesn't fly, he falls the wrong way. What's over-powered about it? Kaladin's supposed to fight Voidbringers with powers imitating the powers given to Jezrien, the king of Heralds. I think it's natural for Tanavast to have been more generous than Leras, considering. Surgebinders in general are more powerful than mistings and arguably mistborns, but hey, Radiants are mimicking the guardians of humanity who were created by a Shardholder after all.

[Swimmingly]

Not overpowered, just a very different scale of magic. The Mistborn series focuses around assassins and intrigue; the SA magic is much more flashy stuff. Sure, Kaladin could probably whomp Kelsier, but Kaladin isn't fighting Kelsier. Kaladin is fighting skeletal elemental stone monsters.

Basically, he's not overpowered in his own environment, or he won't be once the monsters start coming.

[Kobold King]

The True Desolation approaches. The Night of Sorrows draws near. The Everstorm looms over the land, hours away from transforming the planet's domestic animals into horrifying super-powered demon-analogues. Honestly, we don't even know what powers these particular foes will face--we've seen only stormform, when still more ominous forms such as smokeform and decayform have been hinted at.

 

Thunderclasts will soon be scouring the land, huge slabs of stone animated by evil spren. We can presume that some unknown entity will soon resume creation of the Midnight Essences. Moelach, Yelig-Nar, and the other Unmade have returned to haunt the land. And knowing Brandon Sanderson, we know only a fraction of the forces our heroes will be going up against.

 

Ultimately, I wouldn't consider the Windrunners, or any of the other orders of the Knights Radiant, to be overpowered. The Stormlight Archive is set on a more epic scale than any of Sanderson's other series. While Mistborn is the tale of ants biting one another with their mandibles, Stormlight is about tyrannosaurs chomping one another with massive fangs. The proportions of the conflict are far greater, and the different series cannot be reasonably compared.

 

The word "overpowered" implies a standard for power. If Kaladin were a Mistborn character, I would agree that he was way too strong. But the standard for power is higher in Stormlight--on Roshar, Vin or Sazed would be underpowered.

 

The character's strengths are all relative, I think.

[Observer]

Keep in mind, this is going to be Kaladin and probably less than fifty actual Radiants up against a massive race of Odium-corrupted monsters, backed up by enormous stone monsters, and possibly immitating his own powers. Honestly I think they could use a little more power being so understaffed, considering the original KR had trouble keeping the peace...

 

EDIT: Kobold basically said what I said but way better. Ninja'd all the way.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Observer

[Shaggai]

We haven't really seen the extent of the powers of the other orders, except Lightweavers (and partially Edgedancers and Elsecallers, but not really). And sure, in a fight a Windrunner would beat a Lightweaver. But Lightweavers aren't combat oriented. A Windrunner can't create supplies, or disguise themself, or visit Shadesmar.

[Wyndrunner]

I also think I read somewhere that Voidbindings might have control over different Surges so there is literally no telling what might happen when Voidbinders return.

[maxal]

We haven't seem what the other combat oriented orders can do. Windrunner appears to be too powerful mainly because they are the only we have seen so far.

[Kobold King]

We haven't seem what the other combat oriented orders can do. Windrunner appears to be too powerful mainly because they are the only we have seen so far.

 

Dustbringers already look absurdly powerful, and we haven't seen them yet.

 

Of course... that makes one wonder why men who could melt stones with a glare were insufficient for stopping the Desolations alone. Clearly we have yet to see Odium's most powerful forces.

[maxal]

Dustbringers already look absurdly powerful, and we haven't seen them yet.

 

Of course... that makes one wonder why men who could melt stones with a glare were insufficient for stopping the Desolations alone. Clearly we have yet to see Odium's most powerful forces.

 

Dustbringer looks like badass warriors straight from hell, which is why I am routing so much for Adolin to become one. I can't wait to see what a Stoneward and an experienced Edgedancer can do.

[name_here]

It should be noted that Scadrial is offically the most investiture-poor Shardworld we've seen, so it's not particularly surprising that Windrunners are more powerful than Mistborn without Atium. Well, kind of, the external physicals can be used at a considerable distance while Basic Lashings require touching the target. Also, the more dramatic uses of their powers seem to be really expensive in terms of Stormlight; the big ending fight occurred inside a Highstorm.

 

There is also the matter of power scales and numbers. A small handful of humans can fly, heal almost instantly, and use sprenblades. Every Stormform can throw lighting bolts, and they were nasty enough when most of them were calling the Everstorm and the others were still having trouble overcoming the tendency for lightning to seek the shortest path to ground.

[Shaggai]

Dustbringers already look absurdly powerful, and we haven't seen them yet.

 

Of course... that makes one wonder why men who could melt stones with a glare were insufficient for stopping the Desolations alone. Clearly we have yet to see Odium's most powerful forces.

And Skybreakers get both Division and Gravitation. Seriously, that's powerful.

[Patrick Star]

If anything, some of the radiant orders are looking vastly underpowered.

 

I just don't see how Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and possibly Edgedancers and Willshapers will make effective fighters.  In traditional desolations, each group had the luxury of a well-formulated battle plan with defined roles and hundreds of other radiants.  Because of how few radiants there are, nearly every member will need to fight on the front lines, which does not look doable.  With this desolation, there simply won't be the radiantpower to fight back.

[Shaggai]

If anything, some of the radiant orders are looking vastly underpowered.

 

I just don't see how Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and possibly Edgedancers and Willshapers will make effective fighters.  In traditional desolations, each group had the luxury of a well-formulated battle plan with defined roles and hundreds of other radiants.  Because of how few radiants there are, nearly every member will need to fight on the front lines, which does not look doable.  With this desolation, there simply won't be the radiantpower to fight back.

Lightweavers maintained morale, at least. Whether or not they'll be able to do it this time is another question, simply because of the numbers. On the other hand, it's looking very likely that Odium will pick a champion, in which case they won't have to fight.

[Baine]

Not all KR are fighters, and many orders have bunches of Squires, who are formidable in their own right. I think it's been discussed elsewhere what the roles of each Order could be.

[Patrick Star]

Not all KR are fighters, and many orders have bunches of Squires, who are formidable in their own right. I think it's been discussed elsewhere what the roles of each Order could be.

 

When you have thousands of radiants, even more squires, and the 10 heralds fighting an army of voidbringers, that luxury exists.

 

When you have possibly 20 radiants (of which at least 2 or 3 aren't able fighters), about a thousand or so squires, maybe a hundred non-radiant and non-squire shardbearers, and hopefully a single herald fighting the same (or an even stronger) army of voidbringers, there simply won't be enough radiantpower to limit the responsibility of fighting to certain orders.

[name_here]

If anything, some of the radiant orders are looking vastly underpowered.

 

I just don't see how Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and possibly Edgedancers and Willshapers will make effective fighters.  In traditional desolations, each group had the luxury of a well-formulated battle plan with defined roles and hundreds of other radiants.  Because of how few radiants there are, nearly every member will need to fight on the front lines, which does not look doable.  With this desolation, there simply won't be the radiantpower to fight back.

 

Lightweavers can create illusions and soulcast, Elsecallers can teleport and soulcast, and Truthwatchers can see the future. I am positive Dalinar can find a use for those abilities. Superior mobility and information can shape the course of a war just as effectively as raw combat power. They're likely to be pretty handy in a fight, too. Lightweavers can make enemies strike at targets that don't exist, Elsecallers can transform people into fire at range, and Mistborn have rather firmly demonstrated that precognition can be handy in a fight. Plus, all the Orders have sprenblades, enhanced strength and speed, and considerable regeneration.

[DSC01]

I don't think the Windrunners are too over the top, but I was thinking that they are a little overpowered in relationship to the other orders that we've seen. Lightweavers, for example, seem a little wimpy in comparison, based on Shallan's example.

 

Then I realized that I was looking at it all wrong. Shallan hardly has discovered her powers. She can barely Soulcast, and she's been teaching herself Lightweaving. She's using it almost exclusively as a means to disguise herself. Imagine an experienced Lightweaver charging into battle from the midst of a massive, confounding illusion, Soulcasting dozens of enemies into dust. Elsecallers might fight similarly, slipping in and out of Shadesmar instead of illusions.

 

Once we have a bunch of full-fledged Radiants running around, the Windrunners will probably stop looking like the supermen of the bunch.

[Swimmingly]

Just a note, I feel that Truthcaller precognition is more along the lines of 'cryptic or self-fulfilling/defeating prophecy' than atium's "become an untouchable god of combat".

[PorridgeBrick]

I have a feeling that we'll think the same once we see the Stonewards in action. That massive stone arm the thunderclast is about to splatter you with? Ripped apart by its own momentum once your contact rids it of Cohesion. That wall over there, preventing your army from passing? There seems to be a man shaped hole in it.

Really, most of the KR are extremely powerful in their own way. Even those without combat-focused surges (mainly Edgedancers) have Plate, Blade, Allomantic pewter on steroids from just holding Stormlight, Squires, and whatever strange order-specific abilities each are given. And they need it, as everyone else in this thread articulated much better than I could. The only real concern with the high Radiant power levels is in the event of a conflux book– it might not do to have the Surgebinders pwning all the Mistborn, Elantrians, high level Awakeners, etc.

[Kobold King]

Windrunners fly and can make their enemies fall in any direction.

 

Skybreakers have the same ability, coupled with "Division", which sounds pretty badchull so far.

 

Dustbringers make rock smolder. Nuff said.

 

Edgedancers have full control over friction. They can dart across the thinnest of strings with ease, and cling to surfaces. It is easy to see how their enormous mobility could benefit them in battle, and the Surge of Regrowth allows them to heal other wounded soldiers.

 

Truthwatchers are implied to have the ability to see the future, which, depending on how precise it is, could be useful in battle. Possessing the Surge of Illumination, they can cast illusions to disrupt their foes, and again, Regrowth is a thing of immense power on a battlefield.

 

Lightweavers are masters of illusion, and can transform their foes (but not sticks) into the elements. Soulcasting can also be used to feed troops.

 

Elsecallers share the Surge of Transformation, and Jasnah showed us how powerful that is. A single Elsecaller can turn an army of Voidbringers into a pile of bread.

 

Willshapers, like their predecessors on the list, have the Surge of Transportation. This could potentially allow combat-applicable teleportation, and there's really no telling what Cohesion does. Steelheart spoilers below:

I imagine Cohesion working like Prof's tensors in Steelheart. Causing incoming projectiles to disintegrate, forming weapons from the dust of the ground.

 

Stonewards, we know little of. But their name and Surges imply the ability to summon massive fortifications (you can't have Knights without castles).

 

Bondsmiths we know little of. Except one, apparently, bonded the Stormfather.

 

 

And of course, all of them have spren that can become any form of Shard weapon. And eventually they gain access to Shardplate as well.

 

Ultimately the Knights Radiant are one of the most powerful military organizations in any fantasy setting. Even if only half of them fight on the battlefield, it is easy to see how they have repelled Desolations so often in times past.

[PorridgeBrick]

We do actually know a little about Stonewards. Cohesion allows you to shape anything however you want. Brandon gave the example of setting your hand onto a table and indenting a handprint into it. And Tension can change the molecular structure of an object, giving it incredible rigidity like that of steel or the limpness of a wet noodle. So a Stoneward could take a rock, mold it into fortifications, than use Tension to make it as hard as or harder than steel. And they could presumably do the inverse, utterly destroying walls that displease them, or even walking into and through annoying thunderclasts, killing them without lifting a finger.

Needless to say, I like Stonewards.

[Levian]

If anything, some of the radiant orders are looking vastly underpowered.

 

I just don't see how Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and possibly Edgedancers and Willshapers will make effective fighters.  In traditional desolations, each group had the luxury of a well-formulated battle plan with defined roles and hundreds of other radiants.  Because of how few radiants there are, nearly every member will need to fight on the front lines, which does not look doable.  With this desolation, there simply won't be the radiantpower to fight back.

 

Their surges aren't as useful in single combat definitely, but wielding a spren-blade that can change to what ever form you need it to be, a full set of active shardplate, and the natural bonuses granted by holding Stormlight (strength, speed, healing), they will still be massive forces to be reckoned with.

[Mailliw73]

An Edgedancer sliding past enemies, taking swipes at them with their spren blade as they pass. A Lightweaver gets sliced to pieces only to actually be in another place, the dead one nothing more than bent light. Elsecallers turning enemies into lightning or flame as they teleport across the battlefield. Truthwatchers healing their comrades and popping up illusions to distract. A Willshaper teleporting around making enemies and their weapons as loose as a noodle, unable to fight.

I just don't see how how they won't make effective fighters.

[Moogle]

If anything, some of the radiant orders are looking vastly underpowered.

 

I just don't see how Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and possibly Edgedancers and Willshapers will make effective fighters.

 

While I agree for a few of your examples, and allow me to offer a few counterpoints.

 

Willshapers: Cohesion lets you shape things from a distance, so make a depression in the ground under your target, sinking them into a pit then raise the stone up and around them and trap them. If Cohesion can shape things quickly, then you could also raise spikes from the the ground, impaling the target. If Cohesion allows you to make barriers of air, apply one to your enemy's windpipe so they suffocate to death.

 

Lightweavers: Use Illumination, apply laser beams of death. Use Soulcasting, create poison from thin air while invisible. Use Soulcasting, transform the enemy into smoke while while invisible. Use Soulcasting, transform the ground beneath the enemy to fire and have them fall into a pit, Soulcast the air above them into stone and trap them.

 

Truthwatchers: Illumination for laser beams, though they do seem underpowered and more 'spy'ish.

 

Elsecallers: Jasnah shoots laser beams that turn anything they touch to smoke. Almost nothing would be able to oppose her on Scadrial if she wore Plate. Soulcast the air to poison smoke from a distance. Soulcast the person in question to poison. Soulcast the air directly around a person to explosives, and watch the boom.

 

So far as I can tell, it seems like Bondsmiths, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, and possibly Dustbringers are likely underpowered as all heck. Sorry, Dustbringers, Abrasion is just a little bit worthless, or so it seems.