Windrunners: a bit overpowered?

[kaellok he/him]

Edgedancers may not be as formidable in combat as, say, a Windrunner--but don't let that leave you thinking that they're less effective.  It's easy as hell to think that, in the Army, it's all about the Infantry, the Tanks, the Artillery, and the Helicopter Gunships--but you're leaving out the Medics.  That's what the Edgedancers are in the KR.  Their control of friction grants them a very special kind of mobility to get to the wounded, and either get them to the rear or heal them where they are.  Pair an Edgedancer with one of the KR with Teleportation, and you've potentially turned a rout (worst outcome of a battle other than "literally everyone died") into an organized retreat.  Even with modern weaponry, death is rarely instant, and with an Edgedancer you can probably get damnation close to "a soldier saved today is a soldier that can fight tomorrow."  Thus, allowing you to use drastically different strategies with your army than otherwise.

 

And I see Truthwatchers as being the Scouts: relaying important information in time for the commander to be able to do a damnation thing about it.  They should basically be perfect for this role, honestly; between their illusions letting them sneak into enemy camps to spy on them to precognitive abilities giving (even just occasional) glimpses of the future, the information they can relay--to a commander and an army capable of acting on it--will have more effect than a single Windrunner could dream of.

[Aleksiel]

Lightweavers: Use Illumination, apply laser beams of death. Use Soulcasting, create poison from thin air while invisible. Use Soulcasting, transform the enemy into smoke while while invisible. Use Soulcasting, transform the ground beneath the enemy to fire and have them fall into a pit, Soulcast the air above them into stone and trap them.

 

Elsecallers: Jasnah shoots laser beams that turn anything they touch to smoke. Almost nothing would be able to oppose her on Scadrial if she wore Plate. Soulcast the air to poison smoke from a distance. Soulcast the person in question to poison. Soulcast the air directly around a person to explosives, and watch the boom.

 

While I agree with the rest, I think you might be giving too much credit to Transformation.

 

Soulcasting (as far as I understood it in WoR) works better if you aim to soulcast the object of choice into a substance with similar or lower density, thus soulcasting air into a trap or explosives will be nearly impossible. We also don't know if any poison can effect Voidbringers, so the poisoned mist might only take innocent people and allies rather than destroy its target, not to mention how hard will be to control it once the wind starts blowing the wrong way.

 

We also don't know if soulcasting can have direct effect on Voidbringers. Szeth thought how they were better at holding stormlight than him. This, combined with how Lashing can't be used on someone with a Plate (invested object), makes me think it's unlikely to soulcast anyone or anything that's invested, so Voidbringers might be immune to any direct surges used against them.

 

It's also too soon to predict how effective Transportation will be in battle. Teleporting yourself around and slicing enemies is very powerful, but is it possible? It's true Jasnah didn't have enough practice with this surge, but we still don't know any specifics. It might not be precise enough to do what you described. Or may be it drains all the stormlight the Radiant carries regardless of the actual amount needed for the destination of choice. There are some unknown restrictions here like how gravitation surge allows accesses to three Lashes, but not unlimited telekinesis.

 

 

 

About the Bondsmiths, I wonder if Dalinar's soldiers will turn into squires now that he is a Radiant. It hasn't happened in the past according to WoR, but there might have never been someone like Dalinar who already controls and has the loyalty of thousands of men.  If he can have squires at all, of course.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Dravs]

 Dustbringers, Abrasion is just a little bit worthless, or so it seems.

 

Abrasion and Friction probably means they can set the air on fire, which is pretty baller I would say.

[Moogle]

While I agree with the rest, I think you might be giving too much credit to Transformation.

 

Soulcasting (as far as I understood it in WoR) works better if you aim to soulcast the object of choice into a substance with similar or lower density, thus soulcasting air into a trap or explosives will be nearly impossible. We also don't know if any poison can effect Voidbringers, so the poisoned mist might only take innocent people and allies rather than destroy its target, not to mention how hard will be to control it once the wind starts blowing the wrong way.

...

There are some unknown restrictions here like how gravitation surge allows accesses to three Lashes, but not unlimited telekinesis.

 

Regarding Transformation, we see ardents create a gigantic building from air. Soulcasters are less efficient than Radiants with enough oaths spoken, so I imagine creating an explosive the size of a fist next to a Voidbringer's head would be extremely easy. Obviously the limitation is that knowledge of gunpowder on Roshar is lacking.

 

As to Gravitation, I thought the restrictions were fairly clear-cut? Only those with Transportation can do anything at a distance, otherwise you have to be physically touching whatever you want to change. If Kaladin got Betab or Kalak's Honorblade, he'd have unlimited telekinesis in all likelyhood.

 

Abrasion and Friction probably means they can set the air on fire, which is pretty baller I would say.

 

I imagine that's probably just Division. Abrasion (Friction's 'canon' name now) doesn't seem to add much to the process. It could be that Friction offers Dustbringers the ability to melt gigantic areas of stone without harming themselves, though.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

Regarding Transformation, we see ardents create a gigantic building from air. Soulcasters are less efficient than Radiants with enough oaths spoken, so I imagine creating an explosive the size of a fist next to a Voidbringer's head would be extremely easy. Obviously the limitation is that knowledge of gunpowder on Roshar is lacking.

 

As to Gravitation, I thought the restrictions were fairly clear-cut? Only those with Transportation can do anything at a distance, otherwise you have to be physically touching whatever you want to change. If Kaladin got Betab or Kalak's Honorblade, he'd have unlimited telekinesis in all likelyhood.

 

 

I imagine that's probably just Division. Abrasion (Friction's 'canon' name now) doesn't seem to add much to the process. It could be that Friction offers Dustbringers the ability to melt gigantic areas of stone without harming themselves, though.

Abrasion also allows for extreme mobility. Imagine a warrior in Shardplate, sliding around at huge speeds while using a Shardblade and disintegrating stuff. Skybreakers seem like they would be more powerful, though, simply because they can fly.

[Pathfinder]

Also I would like to put forward consider their power source. A mistborn has all the various metals to draw various abilities from. If a mistborn runs out of pewter, he or she still has steel, iron, and etc. If a knight radiant is out of stormlight, then there goes their healing, their speed, their strength, AND all the abilities of their order. Theoretically if anyone has the knowledge of metalurgy and knows the required percentages of burnable metals, then anyone could keep themselves well stocked for their powersource (I understand how the magic system actually works, and that the metals aren't power sources themselves, but I am using it as a catch all in this case for what they accomplish). Conversely when a knight radiant (as far as we have seen), runs out of stormlight, they need to wait for another highstorm to recharge their gems. Unless of course they do like Kal and fight IN THE MIDDLE of a highstorm lol

Edited May 2, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[harry31j97 he/him]

Agree with p4thf1nd3r, also correct me if I'm wrong but don't we have WoB that in a fight between Kaladin & Kelsier, Kelsier would win?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Willshapers: Cohesion lets you shape things from a distance, so make a depression in the ground under your target, sinking them into a pit then raise the stone up and around them and trap them. If Cohesion can shape things quickly, then you could also raise spikes from the the ground, impaling the target. If Cohesion allows you to make barriers of air, apply one to your enemy's windpipe so they suffocate to death.

I assume you're talking about using Cohesion in conjunction with Transportation, a la Jasnah's death ray? Because afaik, Cohesion by itself has to be shaped by hand, like everything in the world around you is just a mass of silly putty.

Lightweavers: Use Illumination, apply laser beams of death. Use Soulcasting, create poison from thin air while invisible. Use Soulcasting, transform the enemy into smoke while while invisible. Use Soulcasting, transform the ground beneath the enemy to fire and have them fall into a pit, Soulcast the air above them into stone and trap them.

You forgot the sound magic too. They can probably make some very destructive blasts with sound, like the Shattered Plains on a much smaller scale.

Elsecallers: Jasnah shoots laser beams that turn anything they touch to smoke. Almost nothing would be able to oppose her on Scadrial if she wore Plate. Soulcast the air to poison smoke from a distance. Soulcast the person in question to poison. Soulcast the air directly around a person to explosives, and watch the boom.

However, this does have a tendency to destroy even pretty large gems. Any few opponents can be instantly defeated by this pretty easily, but a larger crowd and she's liable to running out of gems and being overrun. So she could assassinate even the Lord Ruler, but a large crowd of ordinary mercenaries TLR could destroy without breaking a sweat could take her down.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

I think most of you guys are giving lightweavers way too little credit. What's that, Kaladin touched Shallan to send her flying into the air? Oh, right, she wasn't there. But for some reason that tree behind him is stabbing him in the spine with her Blade.*

 

 

 

* may not be realistic in-character plot development. But the point stands: what you see and hear is 99% of the fight. If you can't see or hear your enemy, you can't fight it very well.

[Moogle]

I assume you're talking about using Cohesion in conjunction with Transportation, a la Jasnah's death ray? Because afaik, Cohesion by itself has to be shaped by hand, like everything in the world around you is just a mass of silly putty.

 

Right, should have mentioned that. Not really sure why you'd bother with Cohesion without Transportation, though.

 

 

You forgot the sound magic too. They can probably make some very destructive blasts with sound, like the Shattered Plains on a much smaller scale.

 

Possibly. If nothing else, a sound of the right intensity could deafen someone and annoy dogs.

 

 

However, this does have a tendency to destroy even pretty large gems. Any few opponents can be instantly defeated by this pretty easily, but a larger crowd and she's liable to running out of gems and being overrun. So she could assassinate even the Lord Ruler, but a large crowd of ordinary mercenaries TLR could destroy without breaking a sweat could take her down.

 

Jasnah would still have a Shardblade and Shardplate. I wouldn't count out an Elsecaller against masses of weak enemies.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Right, should have mentioned that. Not really sure why you'd bother with Cohesion without Transportation, though.

Possibly. If nothing else, a sound of the right intensity could deafen someone and annoy dogs.

Jasnah would still have a Shardblade and Shardplate. I wouldn't count out an Elsecaller against masses of weak enemies.

I just wanted to make sure you had Cohesion's abilities right.

Ha. That's probably a lot less energy-intensive than trying to reenact the Shattered Plains, if less cool.

True, I suppose. I still would say she's a lot more susceptible to crowding than the rest, however.

Edit: By the rest, I meant the other Radiant Orders. Your solution still doesn't change that, Moogle, since, if that, if it is even possible, would apply to all Radiants and give Elsecallers no extra advantage.

Edited May 2, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Moogle]

True, I suppose. I still would say she's a lot more susceptible to crowding than the rest, however.

 

This is one thing that I'm less confident on. Syl can become anything, right? Imagine her becoming a sort of spiked belt for Kaladin. Four swords coming off a belt around Kaladin. Kaladin could just spin around in a circle and become a death-delivering top. I'm not sure any Radiant could ever be crowded.

 

Sure, people could duck... but may I introduce this?

 

 

Jasnah (or any Radiant) could just have their Spren become a harness with spikes coming off like this, then start rolling around and become a ball of death. You can will Shardblades to not pierce the ground below you, so...

 

Would this work? I'm thinking the aesthetic is a bit ridiculous, but it seems feasible if you hunch up into a ball so you aren't too large for your spren to cover.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Oh god. We've created a monster.

"I have seen the end, and heard it named. The Night of Spikes, the True Desolation. The Hedgehogstorm comes." Collected on the 1st of Nanes, 1172, 15 seconds pre-death. Subject was a darkeyed youth of unknown origin.

[Shaggai]

Agree with p4thf1nd3r, also correct me if I'm wrong but don't we have WoB that in a fight between Kaladin & Kelsier, Kelsier would win?

That's because Kelsier would slit Kaladin's throat in his sleep. Kaladin is powerful, but he's constrained by honor. Kelsier can be as ruthless as he likes. In a straight-up fight, a Windrunner wins every time. Stormlight alone gives them Allomantic pewter, except significantly better, and Gravitation allows for similar (and sometimes even better) effects to Allomantic steel and Allomantic iron. Also, Windrunners have full control over their flight. Even atium might not be enough if the Windrunner just went up into the sky.

[Patrick Star]

The big question mark with Radiant power levels in relation to the Voidbringers is the ability of surges to work directly on Voidbringers.

 

How invested are they (the Voidbringers)?

 

Will Lashings work on them?  Can they be soulcast?  Or set on fire and exploded via abrasion/division?  Or melted into goop by cohesion?  Or turned into stone (or at least made very, very brittle) by tension?  Can abrasion increase their mechanical friction to the point at which they become immobile?

 

Or can they actively negate surges?  For all we know, they can counter illusions, sound blasts, incineration, cohesion, and long-distance soulcasting (among other things).

 

Also, do they have their own shardblades/plate?  I find this highly likely because of their relationship with Odiumspren. 

 

Can the unmade actively battle?  How powerful are the ten deaths?  Will the heralds return?  What other forms will the voidbringers take, and how can the Radiants fight against them?

 

There are too many wildcards for us to simply trust in the ability of surgebinders to beat back voidbringer cannon fodder.  What we've seen is only an unreliable glimpse of the true abilities of Radiants and Voidbringers.

[Pathfinder]

 

Jasnah would still have a Shardblade and Shardplate. I wouldn't count out an Elsecaller against masses of weak enemies.

 

I love elsecallers and all, but to point out WoB has shown not ALL radiants use shardplate, so you are assuming elsecallers get them when we have not seen Jasnah with blade nor plate. As well as the storm father stated Dalinar gets neither, so it is possible to have a spren but not have a spren blade

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

That's because Kelsier would slit Kaladin's throat in his sleep. Kaladin is powerful, but he's constrained by honor. Kelsier can be as ruthless as he likes. In a straight-up fight, a Windrunner wins every time. Stormlight alone gives them Allomantic pewter, except significantly better, and Gravitation allows for similar (and sometimes even better) effects to Allomantic steel and Allomantic iron. Also, Windrunners have full control over their flight. Even atium might not be enough if the Windrunner just went up into the sky.

I agree that even atium might not be enough. While they will know what's going to happen in the next moment, Mistborn have very dedicated flight paths comparatively, so they don't have as many options to react to their new knowledge with. Depending on how fast their death ray is, Elsecallers may be able to beat atium as well.

Edited May 2, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Moogle]

I love elsecallers and all, but to point out WoB has shown not ALL radiants use shardplate, so you are assuming elsecallers get them when we have not seen Jasnah with blade nor plate. As well as the storm father stated Dalinar gets neither, so it is possible to have a spren but not have a spren blade

 

We've seen Jasnah with a Blade, and we know that Shardplate was available for all Radiants, but that not all Radiants chose to use it.

 

 

Question

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

(source)

 

If we're talking about how overpowered someone is in a fight, I think denying a Radiant Shardplate would be like saying a Mistborn couldn't use metals.

[Pathfinder]

We've seen Jasnah with a Blade, and we know that Shardplate was available for all Radiants, but that not all Radiants chose to use it.

 

 

If we're talking about how overpowered someone is in a fight, I think denying a Radiant Shardplate would be like saying a Mistborn couldn't use metals.

Not that I don't believe you, just that seems to be a gap in my mind. When did Jasnah show a sword? I think my mind is hazily recalling when she sees Wit? Lol this is going to bother me now that I can't remember  . 

[Aleksiel]

Not that I don't believe you, just that seems to be a gap in my mind. When did Jasnah show a sword? I think my mind is hazily recalling when she sees Wit? Lol this is going to bother me now that I can't remember  . 

 

Yeah, when she sees Wit. Here:

 

 

She stabbed her hand out in the blink of an eye, mist twisting around her arm and snapping into the form of a long, thin sword pointed at Wit’s neck.

[Pathfinder]

My work addled brain thanks you!

[kaiadam]

I agree that even atium might not be enough. While they will know what's going to happen in the next moment, Mistborn have very dedicated flight paths comparatively, so they don't have as many options to react to their new knowledge with. Depending on how fast their death ray is, Elsecallers may be able to beat atium as well.

 

 

How would a windrunner deflect 3 coins pushed at his head at the same time? Assume with Atium, these coins would all hit a vital part of the brain, and a shardblade is thick enough to parry only 2.

 

The biggest issue I have with a mistborn vs windrunner fight is that windrunners have no ranged abilities (spren changes to crossbow form?) and they have more or less equal speeds while mistborn have higher endurance so even if the mistborn can't kill the windrunner, he can just kite away and wear the windrunner down with coins.

[Pathfinder]

How would a windrunner deflect 3 coins pushed at his head at the same time? Assume with Atium, these coins would all hit a vital part of the brain, and a shardblade is thick enough to parry only 2.

 

The biggest issue I have with a mistborn vs windrunner fight is that windrunners have no ranged abilities (spren changes to crossbow form?) and they have more or less equal speeds while mistborn have higher endurance so even if the mistborn can't kill the windrunner, he can just kite away and wear the windrunner down with coins.

 

The speed of regeneration for knights radiant are obscene and the levels to which they heal are up there as well. Countless times we have seen Kaladin literally at deaths door and still heal from it, I don't doubt a few "bullet" holes would heal in seconds even if it was a headshot. A windrunner can throw his blade and instantly resummon it to his hand, and has arguably MUCH better flying to be able to catch up to a mistborn for close combat. 

 

edit: also couldn't Kaladin just triple lash himself to the mistborn so literally where-ever the mistborn goes, Kal is pulled full speed in that direction?

Edited May 2, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

How would a windrunner deflect 3 coins pushed at his head at the same time? Assume with Atium, these coins would all hit a vital part of the brain, and a shardblade is thick enough to parry only 2.

The biggest issue I have with a mistborn vs windrunner fight is that windrunners have no ranged abilities (spren changes to crossbow form?) and they have more or less equal speeds while mistborn have higher endurance so even if the mistborn can't kill the windrunner, he can just kite away and wear the windrunner down with coins.

No ranged abilities? Just lash things at them. Coins? Reverse lash them away. Even if they connect, I don't expect them to oneshot plate without Duralumin, and there is always Stormlight healing. And through the combination of Basic Lashings, and a artificial vacuum, Windrunners should be able to fly any speed they want. They might be able to dodge those coins. Plus, higher endurance? What happened to Stormlight and Shardplate?

Edit:P4th is right. Mistborn seriously have no chance at playing keepaway, because Windrunners are way too damnation fast. And an intriguing possibility I thought of. It's easier to Reverse Lash objects in the air, right? With enough Stormlight (say, if you had Plate serving as a battery) could you Reverse Lash a Mistborn just enough that they don't line up with their anchors and splat on the ground?

Edited May 2, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[hoser he/him]

As mistborn are invested, I doubt you could lash them directly unless you had "much" more investiture than they did.  For a fair comparison, I think you have to assume similar levels of investiture.