Can Truthwatchers Affect the Pace of Time?

[Confused]

In the dueling scene, Relis is about to kill Renarin (emphasis added):

Relis skidded to a stop, raising his Blade high over his head toward the defenseless prince. Renarin closed his eyes, looking upward, as if exposing his throat.

Kaladin wasn’t going to arrive in time. He was too slow compared to a man in Plate.

Relis hesitated, fortunately, as if unwilling to strike Renarin.

Kaladin arrived. Relis spun around and swung at him instead.

You can read this scene three ways: (1) Relis just hesitated, when he realized he was about to kill an innocent second son of a Highprince; (2) Renarin saw the future and knew that Relis would hesitate, giving Kaladin the time to save him; or (3) Renarin caused time to slow around him and Relis, just like a time bubble on Scadrial.

I vote for Door #3. The Truthwatchers have the Progression and Illumination surges. Illumination may enable Truthwatchers to “see” the future, but Progression may enable them to slow down or speed up the future.

Thoughts?

Edited September 13, 2017 by Confused
To remove excess blank lines.

[woolhead]

Progression is the Healing surge isn't it? The one Lift uses to heal her thieving friend. 

 

Based on that and what we know about Lightweaving, I have to go with the least interesting option of number 1. 

 

Edit: that said, the name 'Progression' is interesting ... I wonder if it works by altering the flow of time in some way for the one being healed (accelerated? reversed?) ... if so your theory could be correct. But on the other hand, I think Sanderson has said something about how his healing all works via the Cognitive aspect of someone, which indicates that it's not time magic based healing imo. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by woolhead

[Fifth of Daybreak]

In the dueling scene, Relis is about to kill Renarin (emphasis added):

 

 “Relis skidded to a stop, raising his Blade high over his head toward the defenseless prince. Renarin closed his eyes, looking upward, as if exposing his throat.

 

“Kaladin wasn’t going to arrive in time. He was too slow compared to a man in Plate.

 

“Relis hesitated, fortunately, as if unwilling to strike Renarin.

 

“Kaladin arrived. Relis spun around and swung at him instead.”

 

You can read this scene three ways: (1) Relis just hesitated, when he realized he was about to kill an innocent second son of a Highprince; (2) Renarin saw the future and knew that Relis would hesitate, giving Kaladin the time to save him; or (3) Renarin caused time to slow around him and Relis, just like a time bubble on Scadrial.

 

I vote for Door #3. The Truthwatchers have the Progression and Illumination surges. Illumination may enable Truthwatchers to “see” the future, but Progression may enable them to slow down or speed up the future.

 

Thoughts?

 

It's an interesting theory but I see a couple holes. The first being that it's far more likely that Relis would hesitated to kill someone who is basically an invalid in the eyes of the court, especially when he's offering his neck to you in defiance. 

 

Second, I think it's more likely that Patter was still hanging around distracting him, but I think the first is far more likely.

 

Finally, I'm skeptical because of the surges themselves. Each order has their own special ability, and the Truthwatcher's is being able to see the future. I do however, like your progression being about time, and not just about healing. This would very much make sense for the Truthwatchers to be able to see the future, as progresion (including time) pluse illumination, equals shedding light on the future. On the other side of that coin, we have the Edgedancers which are Progression and Friction. If progression does include the flow of time, I think it makes more sense for the Order that controls friction to be able to speed up and slow down time. If this is the case, I'm even more excited for some starvin' Lift chapters. 

[shawnhargreaves]

Very interesting theory!   I've thought for some time that Renarin was using Truthwatcher powers during this scene in ways that will become obvious to us when we someday learn more about what these powers are.   This strikes me as a plausible candidate.

[Numb]

What if we are looking at the healing from progression all wrong. It's not actually "healing" but instead it's a form of isolated time displacement. So when lift uses Growth on the seeds she doesn't actually make them grow but instead alters time in such a way that it appears like they grow. The same can be done with the Regrowth she performs. It works on the recently deceased because it isn't actually healing the body but instead shifting it back into a time where they were alive. I assume this doesn't work on the spiritual aspect so it cannot heal someone that has been dead for awhile. 

 

I also like EMTevors ideas. Since Illumination is about how one perceives their surroundings it's possible that they don't actually slow down time but instead slow down the persons perception of time. Relis appears to be hesitated but instead what's happening is it's taking his body longer to perform the actions because of this altered perception.

 

My wave physics is pretty bad on the macro level so not really sure if this line of thinking is correct so hopefully somone more knowledable can clarify. If the truthwatcher was able to slow down all the light Relis's eyes were receiving would he experience a slow time of time and if he would would his body then slow down as well since it's receiving information at a slower rate?

 

edit: Seem it would be akin to "lag". Living in the past so to speak on a merely perception level. Anyway the surge of illumination is actually fascinating. Shallan's use of it is rather unimaginative so hopefully Renarin shows us what it can do.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Numb

[RShara]

I have to go with option 1 on this as well.  Relis was somewhat friends with Renarin, wasn't he?  So he hesitated.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I have to go with option 1 on this as well.  Relis was somewhat friends with Renarin, wasn't he?  So he hesitated.

Isn't Relis the dueling champion? I thought he hated Adolin.

[LSU Tiger]

Affecting time would explain why edgedancers are suppose to be so effective on the battle field. 

[Aleksiel]

I'm with woolhead who pointed out healing is based on the cognitive realm and not time, thus making re-growth unrelated to time. However, growth as a sub-progression surge might be time based. Lift made plats grow, which is arguably based on her desire for them to grow or something else. 

 

Even if progression influences time, I don't think that's what happened here. If Renarin had slowed time, it would have seemed to Kaladin that Relis stopped or slowed down or Kal would have at least thought something was off rather than described it as hesitation. 

[Argent]

I always assumed Pattern distracted Relis around that time, giving Kaladin the few extra seconds he needed to get there.

 

This being said, I still don't think Truthwatchers can affect time. The Progression surge does seem deal with the time dimension, but the Illumination one doesn't affect things directly, it creates illusions. So Renarin might be able to change the way how somebody perceives time (e.g. make it feel like minutes have passed, when in fact it had been hours), but I don't think he can actually affect the flow of time.

[RShara]

Isn't Relis the dueling champion? I thought he hated Adolin.

 

Sorry, I got Relis and Abrobadar mixed up.  But I still don't think there's anything supernatural going on other than Pattern at the most.

[Pathfinder]

What if we are looking at the healing from progression all wrong. It's not actually "healing" but instead it's a form of isolated time displacement. So when lift uses Growth on the seeds she doesn't actually make them grow but instead alters time in such a way that it appears like they grow. The same can be done with the Regrowth she performs. It works on the recently deceased because it isn't actually healing the body but instead shifting it back into a time where they were alive. I assume this doesn't work on the spiritual aspect so it cannot heal someone that has been dead for awhile. 

 

I also like EMTevors ideas. Since Illumination is about how one perceives their surroundings it's possible that they don't actually slow down time but instead slow down the persons perception of time. Relis appears to be hesitated but instead what's happening is it's taking his body longer to perform the actions because of this altered perception.

 

My wave physics is pretty bad on the macro level so not really sure if this line of thinking is correct so hopefully somone more knowledable can clarify. If the truthwatcher was able to slow down all the light Relis's eyes were receiving would he experience a slow time of time and if he would would his body then slow down as well since it's receiving information at a slower rate?

 

edit: Seem it would be akin to "lag". Living in the past so to speak on a merely perception level. Anyway the surge of illumination is actually fascinating. Shallan's use of it is rather unimaginative so hopefully Renarin shows us what it can do.

At the very least it is a very cool concept. Upvote my friend!

[Seloun]

It's unlikely that it was Pattern that causes Relis to hesitate, since by then Syl has chased him off. Syl sees Pattern early on during the fight, Pattern runs while Syl chases, but Syl has to come back to Kaladin when he's dodging the two Shardbearers.

 

Syl wanders off:

 

“Wait,” Syl said. “What is that?” She zipped away toward Renarin, but Kaladin couldn’t spare much thought for her behavior. When the man in orange reached Adolin, he’d again be surrounded

 

Syl comes back:

 

Kaladin gritted his teeth, dodging to the side, feeling the Blade pass in the air. He had to buy Adolin time. Moments. He needed moments.

 

The wind began to blow around him. Syl returned to him, zipping through the air as a ribbon of light.

 

Kaladin intervenes with Relis almost immediately thereafter. Syl is still with Kaladin after Relis runs away, so if Pattern was around Syl likely would have noticed or chased further since Kaladin didn't need her any more:

 

 

The darkeyes in their seats cheered. The lighteyes seemed stunned. Above, Syl spun with the winds, and Kaladin could feel her joy. Adolin released Green Plate, who rolled off him and stomped away. Underneath , the prince lay in a depression in the sand, head and shoulder exposed through broken pieces of Plate.

 

Later, Syl recaps:

 

“A revolting type.” She paused. “But not evil, I don’t think.” She sounded begrudging. “I was going to follow it, as it fled, but you needed me. When I went back to look, it had hidden from me.”

 

That said, I don't really think that the hesitation was time related, since we have no indication that Relis's attack on Kaladin is slowed at all. All Relis appears to do is turn in place, so if he was somehow being slowed, it seems reasonable that it would still be in effect when Relis takes a swipe at Kaladin at the end. Relis is certainly thinking fast enough to decide that he's going to swing at Kaladin; none of this suggests time manipulation being a factor here.

 

My interpretation was somewhat more prosaic - Relis was using Kaladin's desire to protect Renarin to give himself an edge. Relis definitely treats Kaladin as a threat by this point. Kaladin uses the surge-dropkick to break his armor, as well as stabbing him through his broken vambrace, resulting in:

 

 

Taking a deep breath, Kaladin yanked out his side knife. He’d started carrying one meant for throwing again, as he had as a spearman before his captivity, though he was out of practice with that. Throwing wouldn’t work against that armor anyway; this was a pitiful weapon against Shardbearers. Still, he could not use the spear one-handed. He charged Relis again.

 

This time, Relis backed away immediately. He watched Kaladin, sword held out. At least Kaladin had managed to worry him.

 

I don't think Relis thinks that he can beat Kaladin straight-up by the end of the fight:

 

 

Green Plate cursed, swatting at Adolin. The prince held on, and his Plate had locked, as they called it— becoming heavy and almost impossible to move.

 

The two teetered, then toppled over.

 

Kaladin looked at Relis, who glanced from the fallen Green Plate to the man in orange, then to Kaladin. Relis turned and dashed across the sands toward Renarin.

 

Adolin is out of commission (he's stuck in unpowered Shardplate under Jakamav) so it's just Relis and Kaladin. Relis evaluates the situation and specifically avoids dueling Kaladin. Kaladin is not far behind when Relis reaches Renarin. If Relis kills Renarin, Kaladin might get to him right as he's out of position swinging at Renarin, and Relis is still stuck duelling Kaladin regardless. Instead, Relis chooses to threaten Renarin so Kaladin might be less concerned about protecting himself for that moment. It's worth noting that Relis's attack is actually very close to being successful due to Kaladin's haste in getting to Renarin, and if not for the screaming spren issue (and it's hard to fault Relis for not accounting for _that_), Relis would have still been in a good position, with Kaladin on the ground and open to a follow-up strike (or even just pushing the Shardblade harder; I'd imagine leverage would favor Relis once he got over the 'light swinging' that Zahel notes some Shardbearers tend to do with Sharblades).

[Confused]

I think Renarin's reaction to Relis readying himself for the fatal strike is significant. He seems to surrender himself in almost a ritualistic way. But we have no evidence that Renarin is suicidal - even if he couldn't effectively fight, he still could have stood up and looked Relis in the eye, challenging him: "Do you really want to do this, Relis?"

 

That makes me think that when Renarin closed his eyes and looked upward, he was doing some "Truthwatch-y" thing. Since he's new to surgebinding, even with Glys guiding him, all Renarin could do was make Relis hesitate for just a moment. Since time manipulation works on Scadrial, why wouldn't it work on Roshar?

 

I'm surprised FeatherWriter hasn't chimed in here. She knows more about Renarin than anyone. I'm curious what she thinks Renarin's capabilities are.

[Argent]

Time dilation and compression are possible on Scadrial because the magic - the Investiture - there allows it. It's possible that you can't affect time with surges because, for example, Honor himself couldn't affect time. Then again, there is some speculative evidence that the Truthwatchers are more of a Cultivation Order, so this could all be bonkers. 

 

But I wanted to note that just because something is possible on a given Shardworld doesn't mean that people will have the tools to make it happen. 

[Pathfinder]

Could it be as simple as Renarian attempted to lightweave, but being unpracticed, it didn't fully form so Relis just pauses confused by what might have flickered before his vision, disregarded it and then continued what he was doing?

[Aleksiel]

Wouldn't letting himself die/be killed like that violate the First Ideal? Since it didn't prevent Renarin from bonding further with his spren, I think he tried to do something, else it would have been a broken ideal.

[Moogle]

Wouldn't letting himself die/be killed like that violate the First Ideal? Since it didn't prevent Renarin from bonding further with his spren, I think he tried to do something, else it would have been a broken ideal.

 

Kaladin tried to commit suicide and it didn't do much. It can't be that Kaladin hadn't yet spoken it, because he broke the bond by violating the Third Ideal before he had to speak it. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the First Ideal; it seems to not be very important.

[Numb]

Wouldn't letting himself die/be killed like that violate the First Ideal? Since it didn't prevent Renarin from bonding further with his spren, I think he tried to do something, else it would have been a broken ideal.

 

Well if letting himself to be killed saved Adolins life it might not have been violating anything. Also the first ideal is really weird.