Nalan and Ishar, the dynamic duo. (Spoilers galore!)

[Fifth of Daybreak]

So I've been reading around the forums throwing this around in the back of my mind. I'm going against two very popular opinions, so I am ready to be blasted by arguments. Let them fly!

 

Theory 1: Nalan is not corrupted.

Theory 2: Ishar is the other Herald in the Prologue

 

First let's set up some background information, taken from Words of Radiance (the in world one.)

 

 

But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be know that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

--From Words of Radiance,

Chapter 2, page 4

 

So right from the start, we know that Ishar was against the Surgebinders running amok. Then there's this gem from WoB.

 

 

 

Q:  Are the Skybreakers kind of like the MPs of the Knights Radiant?
A:  Hmm... (Thinking) ... Yes.  That is actually a really good analogy.

 

So here it's suggested that the Skybreakers are basically the enforcement of the codes that Ishar was setting up for the fledgling Knights Radiant. 

 

Another snip from WoR

 

And thus were the disturbances in the Revv Toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan'Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage.

--From Words of Radiance

chapter 5, page 17

 

So Nalan only stepped in when they stopped prosecuting, according to this quote. 

 

Skip forward a large chunk of time to present day Roshar. Nalan is actively killing surgebinders, while following the law. He is keeping with his own personal philosophy, even at the risk of letting a desolation occurs, because that's what he thinks he's doing.

 

 

"Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return the Desolation to this world." His words were so cold. "What you are must be stopped."

 

Here is a man who is obsessed with law, to a point where he lets go of Lift to slap a minion for asking if they are above the law.

 

 

"Aren't we above their laws?"

Darkness actually let go of her, striding over to slap the minion across the face. "Without the law there is nothing. You will subject yourself to their rules, and accept the dictates of justice. It is all we have. The only sure thing in this world."

 

So he does care about justice. He forces his own subordinate to face whatever punishment for killing a kid (I bet it's a brutal one too.) He's bringing justice to the surgebinders, because thiey could cause a desolation, but he only does it in a way that satisfies his divine attribute.

 

"But EMTrevor" you say, "Where does Ishar fit into this?"

 

Well we already know that Ishar was iffy about the whole Surgebinders running amok thing, and that's what's happening at the present time. All the characters and spren are adamant that they are not KR. They have no organization, and no rules, time for Ishar to destory each and every one right? But that's Nalan is doing! Unless, they are a team.

 

So far, we have figured out that Nalan is trying to stop the desolations from happening, even if through questionable means. Let's jump back to the prologue now.

 

 

"I don't like this. What we've done was wrong. That creature carries my lord's own Blade. We shouldn't have let him keep it. He--"

 

Woah, so this man (IMO Ishar) and Nalan are now involved with the assassination of Gavilar Kholin. Why?

 

Well, the Parshendi claim that Gavilar was about to do something dangerous. We know he was in league with Amaram, and, most likely, with the Sons of Honor, as stated in Chapter 88

 

 

The sons of Honor had, at long last, achieved their goal. Gavilar would be proud.

 

The Sons of Honor were trying to return the Voidbringers in order to return the Heralds, and Gavilar was a member. Returning the voidbringers would bring another desolation. Nalan and Ishar plot to kill Gavilar...and Nalan also plots to kill Amaram. 

 

Heleran is the Shardbearer who Kaladin kills. Amaram thinks that the Ghostbloods are behind it, but Heleran was not a Ghostblood, that was his father. Earlier in 88, Mraize says that Heleran sought out the Skybreakers, whom we know to have shards from Lift's interlude.

 

 

"You don't know who we are. You don't know what we are trying to accomplish. You don't know much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers?"

 

So now we can pair the assassination attempt on Amaram to the Skybreakers, and then to Nalan, again, killing someone who could bring about the desolations. Ishar  would be a natural ally for this, as he did not wish to have Surgebinders running amok, and would also want to prevent a desolation, for the implications it has on the world, and on the Heralds who abondoned their oathpact.

 

Finally, lets look at the Szeth part of 88.

 

 

"The Voidbringers have returned. I was right, and my people. . .they were wrong."

"You were banished by petty men with no vision. I will teach you the path of one uncorrupted by sentiment. You will bring this back to your people, and you will carry with you justice for th leaders of the Shin."

 

Woah, that's a change in direction. What happened to hunting those who would cause a desolation? Oh yeah, that's right the desolation is here. So with his main quest failed, Nalan turns to his side quest. Justice. Who deserves justice more than the leaders of the Shin (please don't say King T, please?) The Shin leaders who banished Szeth and forced him into his position as Truthless are technically responsible for all of the murders he committed, because they wrongfully forced him into the role.

 

(Crazy end theory) Considering Nalan's statement about being their god, I am inclined to think that Nalan was a force of Shin, entering the world and delivering death for the good of the people, but he was as deceived as Szeth was, and so the deaths that Nalan caused are then also the responsibility of the Shin. Justice for those that Nalan needlessly slaughtered in the name of saving the world. Justice for the wanton slaughter that Szeth partook in. Justice, and not a perversion of it.

 

Edit: Seperated crazy personal theory from the rest of my deductions, as they should have been seperate thoughts. Thanks to Argent for pointing that out to my sleep deprived mind. 

Edited April 11, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Argent]

I like a lot of this.

 

I don't know how I feel about Ishar, because I've been imagining him as an old Dalinar in my head (which I acknowledge might very well be wrong, given that quote from Words of Radiance), but I think you've got Nale - Nalan - pretty spot on. Except for the last part. I followed you all the way through the idea, but the conclusion feels a little out there. Maybe I need to reread it, but I'll wait to see how others respond first.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

. Except for the last part. I followed you all the way through the idea, but the conclusion feels a little out there. Maybe I need to reread it, but I'll wait to see how others respond first.

 

You're absolutely right. I got caught up in the rest of the well researched idea, and threw you into my crazy postulation with no break! I'm going to blame the 24  hour ambulance shift I finished a few hours ago haha. 

[PorridgeBrick]

How you're reading Ishar here seems off to me. Yes, Ishar obviously wants the Surgebinders to be ordered, swear Oaths, et cetera. But notice how he's telling everyone to do this– his warning is merely a means to an end, a way to get the Radiants united. With the modern Surgebinders, they're just being hunted and killed outright on even the flimsiest of excuses. With each being so separated and isolated, there's no way for them for them to become organized, no reason to try to frighten them into unity. When Nalan is killing them, it's nothing to do with whether they're using their abilities to run amok– it's if they have those abilities at all. Ym and Lift didn't abuse their powers before they were targeted, they just happened to gave committed crimes at some point. And they're never warned or anything, like Ishar did here.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

How you're reading Ishar here seems off to me. Yes, Ishar obviously wants the Surgebinders to be ordered, swear Oaths, et cetera. But notice how he's telling everyone to do this– his warning is merely a means to an end, a way to get the Radiants united. With the modern Surgebinders, they're just being hunted and killed outright on even the flimsiest of excuses. With each being so separated and isolated, there's no way for them for them to become organized, no reason to try to frighten them into unity. When Nalan is killing them, it's nothing to do with whether they're using their abilities to run amok– it's if they have those abilities at all. Ym and Lift didn't abuse their powers before they were targeted, they just happened to gave committed crimes at some point. And they're never warned or anything, like Ishar did here.

 

You make a fair point, but on the other hand, surgebinders are not well known, and Ishar as well as the other Heralds aren't exactly in a position to make a public announcement. And also the warning was originally given while the Heralds were still bound to the Oathpact. It's possible that Ishar's main focus, along with Nalan's, is to stop the desolation at all costs, no warnings, only action. 

Also, Ishar was the Herald associated with the Bondsmiths. This snippet makes me curious about what it was that had to happen for the Voidbringers to be enslaved: 

 

 

 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

 

Which to reconcile your questions, it leads into a large theory that the Recreance had to happen for the desolations to stop, and Ishar had something to do with that as well. But that theory is not nearly as well substantiated with passages from the book.

[Moogle]

Ym and Lift didn't abuse their powers before they were targeted

 

I'll give you Ym, but Lift is using her powers to steal. In what way is this not 'abusing' her powers?

Edited April 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Aoibheann]

Main theory - solid - it could be Ishar. 

 

Crazy end theory - I don't follow. How did the Shin manipulate Nalan?  We don't see anything  of that.

 

Also (and this doesn't really impact your theory, but you mention it): We don't know Gavilar was actively involved in the Sons of Honor.  We know Amaram (and Taravangian) were influenced by Gavilar.  We know they want to claim Gavilar as theirs, but we don't know Gavilar's actual allegiances.  

[PorridgeBrick]

I'll give you Ym, but Lift is using her powers to steal. In what way is this not 'abusing' her powers?

You have me there. IDK why I didn't use my brain for that sentence. Still, I don't think that's how Ishar intended it– I think more major levels of abuse are why he's forcing everybody to comply, not just a little girl stealing from the rich.

@EMTrevor

Sure, it's hard to announce it to them, but it's equally hard for them to comply and organize when there is no one to organize with. He can't punish them for something they could not avoid doing. For it all to make sense you have to change his motivation to "stop Desolation no matter what" as you said, but then you can't use the epigraph quote as evidence anymore since it refers to an entirely different motive.

[Moogle]

You have me there. IDK why I didn't use my brain for that sentence. Still, I don't think that's how Ishar intended it– I think more major levels of abuse are why he's forcing everybody to comply, not just a little girl stealing from the rich.

 

I am not so sure on this point. It strikes me that the point of the forming the Radiants was to turn previously 'useless' people into actual Knights who could be better focused on helping humanity. (Stopping the occasional Surgebinder from starting a civil war was a side-benefit.)

 

I don't think the most of the old Surgebinders were actively harmful, it was more that with organization they could accomplish something wonderful. Compare a 'Windrunner' pre-Radiants acting as head of a low-ranking guard (and doing very little of note) to how the Knights were a super-effective army and would force that Windrunner bodyguard to protect the entire land, rather than one single person.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Fifth of Daybreak]

You have me there. IDK why I didn't use my brain for that sentence. Still, I don't think that's how Ishar intended it– I think more major levels of abuse are why he's forcing everybody to comply, not just a little girl stealing from the rich.

@EMTrevor

Sure, it's hard to announce it to them, but it's equally hard for them to comply and organize when there is no one to organize with. He can't punish them for something they could not avoid doing. For it all to make sense you have to change his motivation to "stop Desolation no matter what" as you said, but then you can't use the epigraph quote as evidence anymore since it refers to an entirely different motive.

 

In the quote, it doesn't state that it was because of any abuse, it was because of having too great power. But I don't think that entirely eliminates it as evidence.

1. It shows that there is a precedent for him destroying surgebinders.
2. It shows that Ishar also cared about the rule of law.
3. "He readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men." What implications? Possibly that the desolation would start soon? I can't remember where, but I remember reading somewhere that there would be a surge in KR numbers immediately before a desolation (Jasnah with Shallan maybe?)
4. "Unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." This line especially supports this. Nalan is only targeting surgebinders that break the law. This vow has already existed, and the surgebinders live in societies that are ruled by law. Before, from what I've gathered about the time between desolations, there was barely enough time to institute a government that would have some sort of law form. That isn't true anymore, and so here are surgebinders that are not being bound by laws, despite their knowledge of those laws existing and what they are.

This, combined with the "stop the desolation motive," gives all the more reason to kill surgebinders. It doesn't specify what precepts and laws, just that they be bound. I don't see how the theory is at all out of context with the quote.

Edited April 11, 2014 by EMTrevor

[PorridgeBrick]

I am not so sure on this point. It strikes me that the point of the forming the Radiants was to turn previously 'useless' people into actual Knights who could be better focused on helping humanity. (Stopping the occasional Surgebinder from starting a civil war was a side-benefit.)

 

I don't think the most of the old Surgebinders were actively harmful, it was more that with organization they could accomplish something wonderful. Compare a 'Windrunner' pre-Radiants acting as head of a low-ranking guard (and doing very little of note) to how the Knights were a super-effective army and would force that Windrunner bodyguard to protect the entire land, rather than one single person.

Maybe I'm thinking he's nicer than he really is, but I think he wouldn't be so willing to kill them over it unless they were actively causing harm somehow. Sure, making them help is important, but I don't think he'd kill them for it so easily Edited April 11, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Found it:

 

"In the past," Jasnah said, "the Desolation-the coming of the Voidbringers-was supposedly always marked by a return of the Heralds to prepare mankind. They would train the Knights Radiant, who would experience a rush of new members." 

WoR Chatper 6

 

IMO, it seems like that could definitely be an implication that he understood

[hoser]

So ...

 

Woah, that's a change in direction. What happened to hunting those who would cause a desolation? Oh yeah, that's right the desolation is here. So with his main quest failed, Nalan turns to his side quest. Justice. Who deserves justice more than the leaders of the Shin (please don't say King T, please?) The Shin leaders who banished Szeth and forced him into his position as Truthless are technically responsible for all of the murders he committed, because they wrongfully forced him into the role.

 

(Crazy end theory) Considering Nalan's statement about being their god, I am inclined to think that Nalan was a force of Shin, entering the world and delivering death for the good of the people, but he was as deceived as Szeth was, and so the deaths that Nalan caused are then also the responsibility of the Shin. Justice for those that Nalan needlessly slaughtered in the name of saving the world. Justice for the wanton slaughter that Szeth partook in. Justice, and not a perversion of it.

If Nalan knew what Szeth was doing from the beginning and could have stopped him, then he is basically an accomplice to all of the slaughter. 

 

Nalan's persecution of the surgebinders is about finding a false pretense to enact an exaggerated punishment to fit an ulterior motive.  What is his real motive for aiming Szeth at the Shamanate?  Could it be getting the Honorblades back?

 

I sincerely doubt that it is legal to execute someone without arrest or a trial in Iri.  So Nalan does not seem really concerned about what is legal when going after Ym.  This is why he seems at least insane, if not corrupted, to me. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

If Nalan knew what Szeth was doing from the beginning and could have stopped him, then he is basically an accomplice to all of the slaughter.

Nalan's persecution of the surgebinders is about finding a false pretense to enact an exaggerated punishment to fit an ulterior motive. What is his real motive for aiming Szeth at the Shamanate? Could it be getting the Honorblades back?

I sincerely doubt that it is legal to execute someone without arrest or a trial in Iri. So Nalan does not seem really concerned about what is legal when going after Ym. This is why he seems at least insane, if not corrupted, to me.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your entire post. I'd be interested to see some sources for your comments if you can find them.

First, Nalan would not have any reason to stop him. At that point, according to the laws that govern Szeth, what he was doing was legal. That's not the same as falsely naming him Truthless and sending him on that path. I can't see this as being a Peter Parker Uncle Ben situation where he would have blame, as Szeth was not deliberately breaking the law, but rather following it. It seems to me more of Szeth has to follow his own laws before following those of others, kind of like following rules of religion that contradict rules of society. Why do you say he would be an accomplice? Nalan even says that in their conversation:

You Szeth, the man said, "worship order, do you not? You follow the laws of your socirty to perfection. This attracted me. . ."

I can't see any justifiable reason according to Nalan's previous actions that would motivate him to stop a man from following the law.

Second, unless you found something I didn't in the book, the only cannon rationalization for Nalan's actions is what he says to Lift in her interlude that I have quote in the originaI al post. My thoughts for his motivation are listed in my crazy end theory. I know that Nalan being insane or corrupted is a widely accepted theory on the boards, but I've listed a good amount of evidence here countering that, and instead of a blanket statement like that, I would like to see some refutation of the specific points I made substantiating my theory.

With my crazy end theory, Nalan had either initally agreed, or was convinced that the desolation was not occuring, and the leaders of the Shin would have had something to do with him coming to that conclusion. That theory is also based on the assumption that he was the one to go back for his Honorblade, giving him interactions with them, but as I've stated, the end theory is tenuous at best, and based on previous theories, so I'm very open to different interpretations about what he might want to do there. My theory is just a large jump from the line deductions that I've made, especially considering his sudden change from Surgebinders to the Shin leaders.

Why would you have any reason to think that he went around the law to kill Ym? According to all the other evidence that Brandon presents to us, that would be very out of character for him. If that were the case, why would he care more about following the law with Lift? It seems like if he's willing to go through all that trouble for a street thief vagrant that's not native to the city in which he catches her, why would he get sloppy going after a craftsman who would most certainly be more missed than Lift. Take a look at these excerpts from Lift's chapter:

"I have," Darkness said, "the proper forms." . . .

. . ."Your paperwork is in order, and I see you even included a plea-granted by the arbiters-to search the palace itself for this urchin."

"This is a leave of execution," the Vizier said. . .

Everything is noted. Everthing is legal, the arrest, the search of the palace grounds, and the execution. No trial. And this in a country that seems somewhat progressive when it comes to government. You're making assumptions about Iri, which is a place we know nothing about. I'm more inclined to believe that he followed their laws to the letter, considering the information presented. Sure, we don't have documentation available for that instance, but I think that was more intentional on Brandon's part to slowly lead us to the realization that this is Nalan. He then adds the paperwork into the Lift section to show precedent for it, so that way we can safely assume he had to go through a similar process for Ym.

 

Edit: fixed typos and mistake in phrasing.

Edited April 12, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Cheese Ninja]

I kinda like it, just because I can make it work with my crackpot theory that Ishar is Thaidakar.  We have that vague comment from Mraize about "Helaran seeking out the Skybreakers", so there's already some link between the Ghostbloods and the Skybreakers.  What interesting is, we and Amaram all assumed that Helaran was a Ghostblood, and I'm still not sure if we were wrong or not.  Did he successfully join up with the Skybreakers (nonSurgebinders) or are they considered a subset of the Ghostbloods?

 

I've also never been a huge fan of the whole "corrupted Heralds" thing, which implies some supernatural cast to their current demeanor.  I think that any twisting of their personalities is solely the result of living with a particularly harmful lie for 4500 years.

 

Another thing I'm really curious about now is Szeth's relationship with Nalan, will he follow him without question, or will they be in conflict by the end of the third book?

[Eri]

Actually if Taln is not Taln and real Taln is not dead (as suggested here) then the other Herald in the prologues may be the real Taln.

[hoser]

I wholeheartedly disagree with your entire post. I'd be interested to see some sources for your comments if you can find them.

First, Nalan would not have any reason to stop him. At that point, according to the laws that govern Szeth, what he was doing was legal. That's not the same as falsely naming him Truthless and sending him on that path. I can't see this as being a Peter Parker Uncle Ben situation where he would have blame, as Szeth was not deliberately breaking the law, but rather following it. It seems to me more of Szeth has to follow his own laws before following those of others, kind of like following rules of religion that contradict rules of society. Why do you say he would be an accomplice? Nalan even says that in their conversation: I can't see any justifiable reason according to Nalan's previous actions that would motivate him to stop a man from following the law.

Second, unless you found something I didn't in the book, the only cannon rationalization for Nalan's actions is what he says to Lift in her interlude that I have quote in the origin"I al post. My thoughts for his motivation are listed in my crazy end theory. I know that Nalan being insane or corrupted is a widely accepted theory on the boards, but I've listed a good amount of evidence here countering that, and instead of a blanket statement like that, I would like to see some refutation of the specific points I made substantiating my theory.

With my crazy end theory, Nalan had either initally agreed, or was convinced that the desolation was not occuring, and the leaders of the Shin would have had something to do with him coming to that conclusion. That theory is also based on the assumption that he was the one to go back for his Honorblade, giving him interactions with them, but as I've stated, the end theory is tenuous at best, and based on previous theories, so I'm very open to different interpretations about what he might want to do there. My theory is just a large jump from the line deductions that I've made, especially considering his sudden change from Surgebinders to the Shin leaders.

Why would you have any reason to doubt that he went around the law to kill Ym? According to all the other evidence that Brandon presents to us, that would be very out of character for him. If that were the case, why would he care more about following the law with Lift? It seems like if he's willing to go through all that trouble for a street thief vagrant that's not native to the city in which he catches her, why would he get sloppy going after a craftsman who would most certainly be more missed than Lift. Take a look at these excerpts from Lift's chapter:

Everything is noted. Everthing is legal, the arrest, the search of the palace grounds, and the execution. No trial. And this in a country that seems somewhat progressive when it comes to government. You're making assumptions about Iri, which is a place we know nothing about. I'm more inclined to believe that he followed their laws to the letter, considering the information presented. Sure, we don't have documentation available for that instance, but I think that was more intentional on Brandon's part to slowly lead us to the realization that this is Nalan. He then adds the paperwork into the Lift section to show precedent for it, so that way we can safely assume he had to go through a similar process for Ym.

 

1. Fundamental to law is jurisdiction.  Assassinating Gavilar was certainly illegal according to the laws of Alethkar, which would have jurisdiction in Alethkar.  .  Further, Nalan knows as well as anyone that Szeth's punishment is unjust.  Szeth was named truthless for asserting the possibility of voidbringers, Radiants and/or Heralds.  Nalan is a Herald.  In the prelude to the Stormlight Archive, Kalak and Jezrien have the following conversation: 

"Kalak shook his head.  "He will not remain bound by this.  The enemy.  He will find a way around it. You know he will."

"Perhaps." The king of Heralds offered no further explanation.

The Heralds are clearly aware that if Taln breaks or Odium finds a way around the restrictions of the Oathpact, voidbringers could return.  Nalan himself is engaged in hunting down proto-Radiants under false pretenses, so he is clearly aware that Radiants can return. In Wor, it is clear that Nalan knows the crime that Szeth is named Truthless for. 

 

2. Your opening post makes the point that he is really trying to exterminate surgebinders.  He claims to be enforcing the laws of Azir regarding theft and trespass.  False pretenses, ulterior motive: QED.  The Azish head minister is astonished that the sentence is death.  Exaggerated punishment: QED.  That Nalan got the paperwork done is likely due to intimidation, bribery or forgery, also certainly illegal in Azir, but which I obviously can't prove. 

 

3. Are you actually asserting that capital punishment without formal process as Nalan performed it on Ym in Iri is legal according to the laws of Iri?  I find this incredible.   Nalan somehow figured out that Lift would attempt to break into the Palace, so he did the paperwork.  He didn't need to do that to catch Ym and commit illegal murder, so he didn't. 

Edited April 12, 2014 by hoser

[Fifth of Daybreak]

For some reason the computer I'm on now won't let me quote or copy and paste, sorry for not being able to more properly format this.

1: . I do agree with you assassinating; Gavilar is illegal by Alethi laws, but Szeth is being governed by Shin laws. He is forced to follow whatever commands are given to him, in this case, it is most likely the Parshendi. We don't know enough about Parshendi law, however, the rules he has to follow in the assassination shows some of their codes of honor we see repeated later in WoK, that would be how Nalan could be involved with it yet it not be illegal, which actually plays into your point anyways, as he'd be acting under Parshendi jurisdiction. We assume that's what Szeth was named Truthless for, but until his flashbacks in book 3, we won't know for certain the exact reason he is.

The heralds are clearly aware? In that very same quote the other Herald responses "perhaps." That doesn't seem clear cut to me. And yes, Nalan does imply he knows the crime that Szeth was punished for, but where do you get that he knew it was unjust? He would at the end of the book, because he was proven so by the arrival of the Everstorm and the Voidbringers. Nalan knows as well as anyone? Up until the end of WoR, no one knew, not even Szeth, so how would Nalan know, especially since he is actively trying to prevent that very event from happening throughout the book?

2. He is enforcing Azir laws. Yes he has an ulterior motive, but that doesn't make her actions any less illegal or his actions more illegal. Exaggerated punishment? Maybe. Is that reprehensible? Yes. Immoral? Yes. Illegal? No. And again, the only ulterior motive presented to us is attempting to prevent the desolations. What ulterior motive are you suggesting that he has? All you've stated so far is that there is an ulterior motive, which I'm not stating is false, but that doesn't refute any of the points that I'm making. Also, I know you've stated he can't prove the bribery and intimidation, but you're asserting that he is acting against all of the character development that happens in the interlude if that is true. Why would he then turn in his own underling to be tried by the law for illegally killing a child? Why would he let her go to slap that underling for asking if they were above the law?

3. I mistyped in my reply, my fault. I've since fixed it. But no, I'm suggesting that Nalan followed the formal process, and the execution was legal, just as it was in Lift's interlude. I find it incredible that you suggest it's a simple as, "he didn't need to do it in this case, so he didn't." He didn't need to in Lift's case! At worst, Nalan holds a regular shardblade, and leads an organization full of shardbearers. If he wanted to stroll into the palace and commit illegal murder, that's easy. At best, he holds an honorblade, Nightblood, and a small army of Surgebinders. That would make heading in and killing Lift even more simple! Anywhere in between on the spectrum, and the paperwork becomes a waste of time and effort. But because of his motivation to follow laws, he goes through the necessary steps. If what you assert is true, everything he said to Lift is a lie, and there is no reason to lie to someone he is about to kill. Furthermore, if illegal execution is not something that disturbs him personally, then he would kill Lift anyways after she's pardoned. When it all comes down to it, if he wanted to murder and that was it, he wouldn't need a convoluted plan that involved filling out a bunch of paperwork.

Edit: fixed typos

Edited April 13, 2014 by EMTrevor

[kaladamSB]

One point I havent seen mentioned in this thread is Nightblood.

Only the pure of heart can weild Nightblood. Even though Nalan is out murdering people, the fact of the matter is that he is able to hand Nightblood to Szeth. To me this says a lot about his corruption (or possible lack-there-of).

This may possibly be a trick learned to fool the sword but I'm not so sure, and I think its worth mentioning

[Crazy Mraize]

I've been running that scene through my head with Nalan and the mysterious other ambassador in the hallway.  Is it possible this was actually a skybreaker, and not a herald, and when he says " That creature carries my lord's own Blade" he's referencing that Szeth had Nalan's blade, not Jezriens? 

 

I've just always found that phrasing odd, not "our lord's own bade" but my lord's own Blade.  He's clearly subservient to Nalan by the dialogue the two share.  Just a possible interesting wrinkle.

[Eri]

He is a Herald, I think: "I'm worried about Ash. She's getting worse. We weren't supposed to get worse"

. He consideres himself in the same "we" as Ash (aka. Shalash).

About "my lord's own blade" – it sounds curious to me too, but maybe the Heralds have various relationships with Jezren – Ash is his doughter, this guy may be his servant or liege, Nalan may be less subservient to him. 

Also, I'm not sure if this guy is subservient to Nalan, maybe Nalan is just being rude.

 

About the Nightblood test proving that Nalan is not corrupted: the test may have something to do with local Shard's Intent ore some other Cosmere variable and not work on Roshar. Even Szeth seems to be able to hold Nightblood and not get crazy, so…

[WeiryWriter]

Personally, I am in favor of the other man being Kalak.  But anyway, has anyone considered the "my lord" being the Almighty himself?  He could definitely be considered the leige-lord of the Heralds and the honorblades are most definitiely "his".

[Wherethewindgoes]

I've been running that scene through my head with Nalan and the mysterious other ambassador in the hallway.  Is it possible this was actually a skybreaker, and not a herald, and when he says " That creature carries my lord's own Blade" he's referencing that Szeth had Nalan's blade, not Jezriens? 

 

Szeth clearly uses the adhesion surge, though, so the blade must be Jezrien's.

[Ren]

About the Nightblood test proving that Nalan is not corrupted: the test may have something to do with local Shard's Intent ore some other Cosmere variable and not work on Roshar. Even Szeth seems to be able to hold Nightblood and not get crazy, so…

Szeth is not evil, because he killed so many people. He was doing what he was ordered to do. Vasher killed far more people than Szeth and he has no problems wielding Nightblood.

Also, Vasher said that Nightblood has its own standards of evil and corrpution. And if Nale and Szeth can wield Nightblood without getting devoured, I think we can assume that they are as corrputed as Vasher. They are not saints, though... but, hey, neither is Vasher.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Personally, I am in favor of the other man being Kalak.  But anyway, has anyone considered the "my lord" being the Almighty himself?  He could definitely be considered the leige-lord of the Heralds and the honorblades are most definitiely "his".

 

I like this. It makes a lot of sense for the Almighty to be "my lord.". . . Especially if it is Ishar saying that, since he is the pious one 

 

 

Szeth is not evil, because he killed so many people. He was doing what he was ordered to do. Vasher killed far more people than Szeth and he has no problems wielding Nightblood.

Also, Vasher said that Nightblood has its own standards of evil and corrpution. And if Nale and Szeth can wield Nightblood without getting devoured, I think we can assume that they are as corrputed as Vasher. They are not saints, though... but, hey, neither is Vasher.

 

I wanted to elaborate on this, because IMO, it's not just a mattered of getting ordered by a master, but it seems to fall more on a religious level. Szeth believes that he deserves to endure the punishment of being Truthless, and so performing all these acts of brutality only serves as a penance for him.