Jasnah and Ivory - First Contact

[Confused]

Is it just me (don't answer that) or did anyone else think it odd how Ivory introduced himself to Jasnah in the Prologue? Was he testing her? Would he have actually killed her or let her die in Shadesmar if she hadn't been brave and resourceful enough to survive? No other spren first contacted their host that way (to our knowledge). What's up with that?

[Leuthie]

Spren are so different from each other, it's no surprise that their interactions with humans are also very different. Thinking about what an Elsecaller can do, how else would such a spren make first contact? Pattern hung out in drawings and asked for truths. He's drawn to art/lies and truths.

Ivory is transformation and transportation. Playing around with her shadow and pulling her into Shadesmar is the only interaction he's capable of until the bond forms. Would he have killed her? Depends. Did he know she might have died?

[Wrath]

I wonder if spren are like icebergs.

[Confused]

Leuthie, your point would be valid if Ivory's only interaction was forcing Jasnah into Shadesmar. But he again threatened her when she was rescuing herself, causing her to form the statue of Taln (how ironic). It was only after that that he relented and signaled his respect. This makes me think that he was testing her worthiness to be an Elsecaller. Why? If she failed, would he have let her die?

[Aoibheann]

I was also confused by the introduction of Ivory.  It sounds like Ivory is also much more antagonistic to Jasnah, even now, than Pattern or Syl.  

The Stormfather also didn't really encourage Dalinar; despite the fact that a bond was beginning to form in TWoK. 

[Wrath]

I was also confused by the introduction of Ivory.  It sounds like Ivory is also much more antagonistic to Jasnah, even now, than Pattern or Syl.  

The Stormfather also didn't really encourage Dalinar; despite the fact that a bond was beginning to form in TWoK. 

 

Well a bond isn't just one way, or else Kaladin wouldn't have been able to force it and "kill" Syl. Perhaps Dalinar actually created the bond with the Stormfather after they came into contact. Or perhaps the visions are actually only possible thanks to a proto-bond between the seer and the Stormfather, and Dalinar merely progressed what already existed when he figured this out.

 

It probably comes down to the type of spren.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Well a bond isn't just one way, or else Kaladin wouldn't have been able to force it and "kill" Syl. Perhaps Dalinar actually created the bond with the Stormfather after they came into contact. Or perhaps the visions are actually only possible thanks to a proto-bond between the seer and the Stormfather, and Dalinar merely progressed what already existed when he figured this out.

 

It probably comes down to the type of spren.

during one of his discussions with the Stormfather, Dalinar asks him why he sends the visions if he doesn't care about humanity surviving anymore and the Stormfather responds that he has no choice, Honor made it a requirement before he died. That statement coupled with him pretty easily rolling over for Dalinar when he gets forceful about making a bond, makes me think the Stormfather doesn't have freedom in making bonds like some of the other spren do.

 

I think Honor set it up so the Stormfather would have to start a bond with someone worthy (First it was Gavilar, then Dalinar) and start sending the visions when the time was right. He was hoping to bond just enough for the visions but Dalinar is forcing him to complete the process and form a full bond.

[Green Fire]

I really like the thought that Ivory kinda just threw her into the deep end.  I think it makes sense not to bother to train an incompetent Elsecaller.  The order seems to have both of the incredibly dangerous Shadesmar surges.  The part 3 chapter epigraphs note them as the "true masters of that realm [shadesmar]"

 

It is besides the point,  but I think Sylphrena was the one who forced the bond at the assassination attempt on the bridge not Kal(adin). Kal will once again regain (adin); when he stops peeving me off and grows up.  Yet again.  Being the (begrudgingly incredibly competent) man-child that he is, I don't know how Syl puts up with it.  Haha.  Syl makes Kaladin bearable. (Not unlike a few couples within my own friends and family.)

[Frostlander]

Agree with those who think it was a kind of test, especially due to the Shadesmar component of the Elsecaller order. Ivory seems secretive and protective, but likely because of the painful consequences of the Day of Recreance. Battar, the Herald for that order, is also known for being wise and careful, so it's possible those qualities are somehow reflected in Ivory and Co.'s testing and subsequent cautiousness.

[Seloun]

I'm not sure why people assume the spren Jasnah saw in the Prologue is Ivory. It seems more likely that it's a disapproving whatever-spren of the same type as Ivory:

 

 She stood her ground and met the thing’s glare, causing it to hesitate. Behind it, a small clutch of other creatures had materialized from the darkness. She had sensed those eyes upon her during the previous months.
 

...

 

She met the oil figure’s gaze. It regarded her for a moment, then raised two fingers to its forehead and bowed, as if in respect, a cloak flourishing out behind. Others had gathered beyond it, and they turned to each other, exchanging hushed whispers.

 

The figure is occupied by or accompanied by others like it. But Jasnah says:

 

 

“I’m sorry. He does not like me to speak of him. It makes him anxious. The knights’ breaking of their oaths was very painful to the spren. Many spren died; I’m certain of it. Though Ivory won’t speak of it , I gather that what he’s done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind.”

 

which leads me to believe the the figure in the Prologue probably isn't her bonded spren, but rather spren that might have been hunting her or Ivory.

[Wrath]

Hmmm... Secretspren? If a liespren likes lies which are truths, does a secretspren like secrets which are hidden in the open? Like hiding your Soulcasting powers by pretending to have a Soulcasting fabrial?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Wrath

[Confused]

Seloun, wouldn't Jasnah have to be bound before she could enter Shadesmar? No other spren were present than this group, of which the "respectful" one was the most prominent. He also "seemed satisfied" when Jasnah first entered Shadesmar.

Not definitive proof, but awfully suggestive that that spren was Ivory.

[Seloun]

Jasnah is almost certainly bound to a spren by the time of the WoR prologue, yes. I don't think that it's a necessary case for her spren to be visible in Shadesmar, however (among other things, we don't seem to see either spren in TWoK when they travel to Shadesmar).

 

I'll agree that there's a good chance that the prominent spren in the WoR prologue is Ivory; however, I don't think it's a clear deduction. In particular, the premise of the original post (why did 'Ivory' act so unusually in the WoR prologue) can potentially be better answered by hypothesizing that the prominent spren isn't actually Ivory. If the prominent spren is actually trying to kill Jasnah, its behavior is more understandable and doesn't conflict with how other bond pairs appear to treat each other (well, barring the Stormfather).

 

Basically I think Ivory = prominent spren has to explain both why the initial meeting with Jasnah and Ivory seems so different than the other Surgebinders as well as the presence of the additional spren during the encounter (which is not necessarily difficult, e.g. it's not completely clear the additional spren are of the same type as Ivory). Ivory != prominent spren seems to require fewer independent explanations - the prominent spren is one of Ivory's kind that's trying to prevent the bond from occurring/further developing. It's satisfied when Jasnah is pulled into Shadesmar since it can't really interact with her otherwise (alternatively, this proves that Jasnah is the one they're looking for); it's willing to let Jasnah drown, and when she doesn't, it draws its sword and considers attacking her until intercepted by Jasnah's construct. It shows respect for her abilities in Shadesmar when she demonstrates she can protect herself, then the meeting ends.

 

However I concede that Ivory != prominent spren is hardly conclusive; it's just that based on what we know at the moment, it seems like the (mildly) more likely explanation. I think the main thing going for Ivory = prominent spren is Conservation of Detail rather than any narrative evidence. My main point was that we don't actually have very conclusive evidence that the prominent spren = Ivory and alternate explanations are still viable candidates.

[Confused]

Actually, Seloun, after writing my post but before reading yours, I reflected that it may make more sense if these spren DIDN'T include Ivory. Perhaps they were a group of spren testing Ivory's judgment in choosing Jasnah, between whom a preliminary bond may have already formed. This characterization is consistent with Ivory's concerns over how the other spren view him. But you are correct: we really don't know. Hence the question in the OP.

I always enjoy your posts, Seloun. They are routinely thoughtful and insightful. Thanks for your input.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

It could be a Highspren. When Jasnah returns to the physical realm, she seems battered and battle hardened, and we know she had contact with them, and asked them for information. I think it stands to reason that the Highspren would most likely be the warriors of the cognitive realm. Maybe Ivory was in crowd of spren, and finalized the decision to bond with her based on how the encounter went.

 

 

 

"Though Ivory won’t speak of it , I gather that what he’s done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind.”

 

Ivory could have been anonymously bonded, without the other spren knowing, or perhaps, the Highspren found out and forced the encounter. Afterwards, Ivory escapes into the physical realm, and begins to bond with Jasnah in full. This could explain the encounter, with Ivory being present in the background, and satisfy the sliver of information we get about Ivory.

[Sphinx]

That's an interesting theory, Seloun, but my primary problem with it is that if what Ivory's done is viewed as a betrayal still 6 years after the prologue, why did another spren of the same type who, seemingly, could have prevented/ended that betrayal, suddenly stop and give a gesture of respect instead? It's quite possible that that they decide to adopt a wait and see perspective, or that something explicitly prevented them from continuing to hunt Jasnah, and there's certainly plenty we don't know about spren relations or the bonding process to leave room for that, but I'm not convinced that it's more likely.

 

My initial interpretation was that Ivory's failure to follow through in killing Jasnah in some part constituted his "betrayal." Perhaps the bonding process began without Ivory's intentions, possibly for similar reasons to the situation with the Stormfater, and rather than end the threat to the spren, Ivory instead acknowledge Jasnah's worthiness and pursued deepening the bond, surprising and alarming the other spren. Furthermore, if Ivory was not present here, why? Anytime Shallan goes to Shadesmar, Pattern is quite close, and more obvious than he is in the physical world.

 

I'll agree that both are quite possible with what we currently know. In either situation there's a lot of questions about spren motivations and society that we just don't understand. I'm certainly not convinced that Ivory is the spren from the prologue, however I do think there is as much absence of evidence for either case, and therefore assuming that he is on the grounds of narrative convenience is not unreasonable.

[WitSpren]

Actually, Seloun, after writing my post but before reading yours, I reflected that it may make more sense if these spren DIDN'T include Ivory. Perhaps they were a group of spren testing Ivory's judgment in choosing Jasnah, between whom a preliminary bond may have already formed. This characterization is consistent with Ivory's concerns over how the other spren view him. But you are correct: we really don't know. Hence the question in the OP.

 

I think that Both possabilities could fit what we know, from jasna's POV.

 

They also fit with what we saw from Shallan's POVs in her WoK POVs, her drawings showed multiple Patternheads following her, not just one.

 

The same with the King.     He was seeing multiple symbolhead's in mirrors and from the corner of his eyes.

 

[Binnut]

It is besides the point,  but I think Sylphrena was the one who forced the bond at the assassination attempt on the bridge not Kal(adin). Kal will once again regain (adin); when he stops peeving me off and grows up.  Yet again.  Being the (begrudgingly incredibly competent) man-child that he is, I don't know how Syl puts up with it.  Haha.  Syl makes Kaladin bearable. (Not unlike a few couples within my own friends and family.)

 

We do have WoB on that:

 

 

 

Q:  How did Shallan rescue Kaladin when they fell in the chasm.

A:  She did not, it was actually Syl.  But he was in the process of breaking the bond and so she was able to get some Stormlight to him but that is what set it really poorly.  This bond was really a strain for her to use at that point, so it was her, but doing what she did just about destroyed her, which is why you don't her from her after that.

[Aleksiel]

I'm pretty sure the spren in the prologue was Ivory, because Jasnah describes him as:

 

One took the shape of a man of midnight blackness, though he had a certain reflective cast, as if he were made of oil. No . . . of some other liquid with a coating of oil floating on the outside, giving him a dark, prismatic quality.

which fits the little figure of blackness that Shallan later on saw in Jasnah's hand.

 

We don't really know how Pattern first presented himself to Shallan as this memories weren't in WoR; we only saw when he was bonding anew to her, so he might have been acting differently now then before.

 

I suppose what Ivory did was a form of test. Was Jasnah wise enough to figure out what to do? She claims Ivory defied his kin in going to her, so I see it as natural for him to be careful in his choice. Perhaps he only came to our realm after this encounter when he was certain she could handle what was coming. The Stormfather didn't go psychically to Dalinar, yet they bonded, so I speculate something similar happened here unlike with Kal and Syl.