Are there any "real" Skybreakers

[fyodor]

So, I'd been taking for granted that the organization being led by Nalan (I am assuming that he is who he says he is) was the actual radiant order of Skybreakers. But looking at it again I'm wondering if that's the case.

 

First, we don't see anyone that actually has a Nahel bond. It doesn't look like any of the lackeys with Nalan can do anything with stormlight or surgebind.

 

Nalan himself is able to do so, but he presumably has his honorblade. Wyndle (Lift's spren) notes that there's something "wrong" with him, which I presume has something to do with his surgebinding without a Spren.

 

Second, when Szeth warns that he'll be facing enemies with shards and power, Nalan doesn't tell him "you'll get a Spren who will let you surgebind and be your shardblade" He just gives him Nightblood. It seems like a curious omission if he was actually going to be training Szeth at surgebinding. 

 

The fact that he can just induct Szeth runs contrary to what we've seen everywhere else, where the Spren themselves have decided who becomes a surgebinder.

 

I'm wondering if Nalan has been maintaining a military type organization that he calls "Skybreakers" but doesn't have any actual Skybreakers?

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

[Elena]

 

I'm wondering if Nalan has been maintaining a military type organization that he calls "Skybreakers" but doesn't have any actual Skybreakers?

 

Any thoughts?

I actually thought that this went without saying - don't know why, but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen any realy skybreaker yet.

[deadlyDomino]

We haven't yet seen an order with more than one Radiant on present day Roshar, so maybe Szeth will be the only Skybreaker. That said, Nightblood instead of a spren is highly suspect, plus all the theories that Nalan isn't actually Nalan, or the theories that all the heralds are varying degrees of insane.

Either way, if there was a real Nahel Skybreaker around, I'm sure there would have been some indication of it. To the best ofmy understanding, you don't just get told to be a Skybreaker and then become one.

[Moogle]

Here's a WoB that might interest you:

Source:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?
A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

 

The WoB heavily implies modern Skybreakers can Surgebind. Taravangian thought Helaran had taught Shallan, though Helaran had a gem on his Blade, so that's weird.

 

There are arguments both for and against modern Skybreakers being the same Order as the Knights Radiant. I lean towards them being the same Order, but possibly whenever they bind a spren, they purposefully kill it so they won't bring a Desolation or something. Or perhaps they can Surgebind and Helaran did not for unknowable reasons.

[Aleksiel]

I don't think the Skybreaker under Nin's command are actual surgebinders. Remember he is convinced they bring Desolation upon Roshar and is determined to find a crime in each surgebinders' past to execute them for.  

[taxilian]

deadlyDomino, on 26 Mar 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

We haven't yet seen an order with more than one Radiant on present day Roshar...

Not so. Ym had to be either an edgedancer or a truthwatcher, since those are the two with the Progression surge (used for healing). Since we know someone confirmed to be in each of those two orders, Ym is therefore a duplicate... unless Renauren got his spren after he died, which I suppose is possible. However, assuming the timeframe in the books to be at all sequential, Renauren started showing signs of his Spren bond very early in the book (when Adolin first gave him the shardblade in fact) and well before we learn about Ym.

[Elena]

snip.

It's Renarin. 

I'm usually not big on correcting spelling, but the guy has an huge fanbase around here (I'll never really understand why ) and if you don't learn how to write his name properly the angry fans are going to eat you alive.

[fyodor]

Here's a WoB that might interest you:

Source:

 

The WoB heavily implies modern Skybreakers can Surgebind. Taravangian thought Helaran had taught Shallan, though Helaran had a gem on his Blade, so that's weird.

 

There are arguments both for and against modern Skybreakers being the same Order as the Knights Radiant. I lean towards them being the same Order, but possibly whenever they bind a spren, they purposefully kill it so they won't bring a Desolation or something. Or perhaps they can Surgebind and Helaran did not for unknowable reasons.

 

Yeah, this quote seems to suggest pretty clearly that they're real Skybreakers.

[deadlyDomino]

Not so. Ym had to be either an edgedancer or a truthwatcher, since those are the two with the Progression surge (used for healing). Since we know someone confirmed to be in each of those two orders, Ym is therefore a duplicate... unless Renauren got his spren after he died, which I suppose is possible. However, assuming the timeframe in the books to be at all sequential, Renauren started showing signs of his Spren bond very early in the book (when Adolin first gave him the shardblade in fact) and well before we learn about Ym.

I stand thoroughly corrected.

[Falconite]

I hope so... purely because I'd love to see how a real Skybreaker interprets the actions of these "renegade" skybreakers who are killing surgebinders...

[Sphinx]

Here's a WoB that might interest you:

Source:

 

The WoB heavily implies modern Skybreakers can Surgebind. Taravangian thought Helaran had taught Shallan, though Helaran had a gem on his Blade, so that's weird.

 

There are arguments both for and against modern Skybreakers being the same Order as the Knights Radiant. I lean towards them being the same Order, but possibly whenever they bind a spren, they purposefully kill it so they won't bring a Desolation or something. Or perhaps they can Surgebind and Helaran did not for unknowable reasons.

 

Or perhaps none of the living members can surgebind at all, never could, but they are still descended from the original Skybreaker order, passing along the teachings, oaths and knowledge, but lacking in the abilities. Things might still develop that way, but it would explain the current lack of evidence of any Skybreakers actually surgebinding, while still allowing Helaran to have knowledge to pass on to Shallan.

[xbauks]

Here's a WoB that might interest you:

Source:

The WoB heavily implies modern Skybreakers can Surgebind. Taravangian thought Helaran had taught Shallan, though Helaran had a gem on his Blade, so that's weird.

There are arguments both for and against modern Skybreakers being the same Order as the Knights Radiant. I lean towards them being the same Order, but possibly whenever they bind a spren, they purposefully kill it so they won't bring a Desolation or something. Or perhaps they can Surgebind and Helaran did not for unknowable reasons.

Does the patron of an order count as a member? If so could Brandon just be screwing with us? Nalan would just need his honourblade to be a member. And he was the one that approached Szeth. The rest of his lackeys could be random soldiers and the could would still technically be true.

Assuming Nalan is Nalan. And he is considered a member since he is the patron.

[hoser]

This is fascinating.  If the Skybreakers and their highspren are extremely orderly, I can imagine that the highspren would not come into the physical while Nalan is killing surgebinders. 

 

There are two important questions that underlay my analysis of what is happening with the Skybreakers.

1. Is Nalan a corrupted renegade Herald serving Odium or is he still fighting in an insane way for his particular flavor of honor?  For simplicity, I am ignoring the possibility that he is corrupted, but the spren can't tell, but it seems possible.  Really this question might better be: Are Nalan and the highspren working together?
2. Do Nalan and the highspren recognize that the Desolation is here and that there is no longer any point in killing surgebinders? For simplicity I am ignoring the possibility that only one or the other sees it that way, but it also seems possible. 

This leaves us four possibilities:

1. Nalan is a corrupted renegade and they know that the desolation is here.  Nalan will find twisted ways to undermine the resistance to Odium and excuses to kill surgebinders.  The highspren will flood into the cognitive and form (or they already have set up) alternate "real" Skybreakers.
2. Nalan is a corrupted renegade and they don't know that the desolation is here.  No change.  Nalan will continue to exterminate Surgebinders and the highspren will either be staying in the cognitive or creating "real" Skybreakers.  
3. Nalan is an insane servant of Honor and they know that the desolation is here.  Nalan will start supporting surgebinders instead of killing them.  The highspren will flood into the cognitive and work w/Nalan to make "real" Skybreakers.
4. Nalan is an insane servant of Honor and they don't know that the desolation is here.  No change.  Nalan will continue to exterminate Surgebinders and the highspren will be staying in the cognitive.

Normal provisos apply:

• I know nothing.
• There are many other possibilities.
• This is just offered to stimulate discussion and more inspired thinking of others, but please don't ridicule my thoughts too harshly.

[thejopen27]

If they were Surgebinders Lift wouldn't have been able to escape by jumping out the window and climbing walls. Also Heleran was a member and it doesn't appear that he had any special abilities and his actions cutting down defenseless wounded men on the battlefield are not very honorable. Heleran also had a blade with a gem in it meaning that it was a dead blade not a live one. If Nale (and I see no convincing evidence that it isn't the herald) needed to give Szeth Nightblood for him to be effective it implies he's not giving him access to a spren (plenty of evidence saying that's not how it works) and the living shard blade granted by a spren. I just have a hard time believing a Highspren would approve of Nale's actions.

As for two members of the same order. I am 99 percent sure Ym was on his way to being a Truthwatcher. His Spren doesn't seem like Wyndle at all and because it's described as looking like twisting lines of light it reminds me of pattern but a little different. He cannot be a lightweaver because of the healing but he doesn't seem like an edge dancer despite caring for the forgotten. I think it's likely the bordering orders have similar ideals. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ym chapter actually happened before the events of WoR but it is an Interlude so it needed to be placed after part 1. If not we know that Wyndle, Pattern, and Sylphrena have said they were the only Spren of their types to be sent but other orders may have sent more than one. We know too little about spren to know.

[Moogle]

 

This is fascinating.  If the Skybreakers and their highspren are extremely orderly, I can imagine that the highspren would not come into the physical while Nalan is killing surgebinders. 

 

This is a very interesting theory. It also suggests that a lot of Skybreakers in Nalan's group (assuming he's been choosing properly lawful people) are going to suddenly gain a spren when it becomes clear that the Desolation has arrived and Darkness has failed.

[Numb]

Thing is aren't we placing the ideal of the Skybreakers above the first ideal? These people aren't protecting the weak nor are they going by the journey before the destination. Surely one has to follow the first ideal before any others to be able to form a bond. In fact doesn't the first Skybreaker ideal actually conflict with the 1st radiant ideal?

[BaoTheWyld]

When Kaladin was being all moody doesn't Syl tell him, "You're not a Skybreaker," does that imply that real Skybreakers do have spren, or am I just jumping to conclusions? I guess I could see there being lots of contention between the orders, just like the tension between Ajahs in WoT and tension between White and Black towers. I'm interested in how this develops.

[Numb]

Syl wouldn't know if there were any Skybreakers around unless Kaladin has encountered them.

[Moogle]

Thing is aren't we placing the ideal of the Skybreakers above the first ideal? These people aren't protecting the weak nor are they going by the journey before the destination. Surely one has to follow the first ideal before any others to be able to form a bond. In fact doesn't the first Skybreaker ideal actually conflict with the 1st radiant ideal?

 

I've made a theory on it before. Basically, yes they're in conflict but it doesn't really matter. The First Ideal doesn't seem to bind Surgebinders very tightly. Kaladin considered suicide and was about to do it (strength before weakness and life before death violated), and it didn't harm his bond. I think the First Ideal is more of a guiding mantra for the Orders to follow, a sort of vague idea that can be liberally interpreted by the Orders and it doesn't really matter. So... Second Ideal takes precedence, I would say.

[Rybal]

Thing is aren't we placing the ideal of the Skybreakers above the first ideal? These people aren't protecting the weak nor are they going by the journey before the destination. Surely one has to follow the first ideal before any others to be able to form a bond. In fact doesn't the first Skybreaker ideal actually conflict with the 1st radiant ideal?

 

It could also be interpretation. Each of the orders probably interprets the core of those ideals differently.

 

For instance, in saying "Life before Death", the Skybreakers could be saying that the lives of the many are worth the deaths of a few. Life for all would be more important.

 

"Strength before Weakness" could also indicate why they tend to focus on newer Surgebinders (though I suppose most would be). If you're strong enough to go against them, you are strong enough to stay.

 

"Journey before Destination" could mean that EVERY step of your journey is important. Since they see things through the eyes of legalism, any misstep (probably within certain bounds) would be relevant.

[Chlehrma]

I think the modern sky breakers follow corrupted oaths much like Nalan has become a corrupted version of his pre-oathpact self. My guess is that he is less corrupted than other heralds since having gone back for his blade--at least I assume he has it since Lift saw him glow.

Maybe instead of life before death, they say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

Maybe instead of strength before weakness they say they will remain strong and do what must be done to protect the whole

Maybe instead of journey before destination, they say that the ends justify the means.

Actually that last one is probably very off since we see them holding to their word and killing the kid. So maybe they just hold the letter of the law above all else.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Chrono]

From what I've seen of Nalan's lackeys, they exhibit no surgebinding powers whatsoever. Oh, they may know that they exist - they certainly knew enough to keep Lift away from Stormlight - but I don't think they actually have a spren. If they had a spren, they simply could have Lashed themselves after Lift, or used their Division surge to do... I have no idea. You could argue that they wanted to keep the surgebinding a secret, but Nalan glows it up while he's chasing Lift, so that's unlikely.

 

Alternatively, has anyone considered that Nalan's hunting of surgebinders kind of rules out that his minions have Nahel bonds? If he was really devoted to his code (and there's no evidence to the contrary) he'd be forced to kill his own men. That's a powerful argument.

 

The Word of Brandon that we've received could easily apply to just Nalan. Since he exhibits the surgebinding powers, he could technically be a Skybreaker - just one without a Nahel bond. Of course, I'm just rehashing what other people have said, so go pay attention to their arguments. They're better than mine.

[Pechvarry]

Szeth will need Investiture to use Nightblood at all.  Because Nightblood doesn't grant Surges itself, he obviously has to gain some method of holding Stormlight.  Ergo, it seems like a pretty safe assumption that Nalan/Nin intends Szeth to become an actual Skybreaker.

 

caveat: Nightblood, as with Honor Blades, feeds on Investiture.  It is therefore entirely possible that like the Honor Blades, NB can enable a similar system.  In this case, it would basically be giving him Nalthian sDNA so he can Breath up Stormlight, Vasher style.  But that's stretching a lot of a foreign magic system into The Stormlight Archive so I'm leaning towards my first statement.

[thejopen27]

For one Moogle, Kaladin hadn't sworn the first ideal yet at the point he was about to commit suicide, and two, Syl definitely wasn't happy with Kaladin jumping and tried to convince him no to jump.  He considered killing Amaram a lot but never did, therefore he didn't break any vows.  Also, in tWoK when Kaladin is in his dark place and about to jump, Syl tells him he has to go and that she may not be able to return and that his indifference and apathy has something to do with it.  At this point Kaladin was not following the first ideal and is not putting the journey before destination or life before death and Syl was weakening because of it.   

 

And to Pechvarry, is it possible that Nightblood can suck stormlight directly from jewels? I don't know just a possibility.  If Nalan was killing surgebinders to stop a desolation he would not employ surgebindrs.  If his men displayed surgebinding he would have killed them.  It seems to me that Nalan has gathered a group of regular human knights to kill surgebinders and forestall the desolation (I'm 99 percent sure Nalan is wrong and desolations bring surgebindrs and not the other way around).

Edited March 27, 2014 by thejopen27

[Moogle]

For one Moogle, Kaladin hadn't sworn the first ideal yet at the point he was about to commit suicide

 

And Kaladin hadn't sworn the Third Ideal when Syl broke off the bond. His only oath was to protect those who could not protect themselves. It seems that by going against any unspoken Ideal, he goes against the bond. Likely because the bond is predicated on him protecting people, and by going against any of the 'greater' Ideals, he goes against the bond. Not so for the First Ideal, which is too vague and doesn't really seem to bind him.

 

 

Also, in tWoK when Kaladin is in his dark place and about to jump, Syl tells him he has to go and that she may not be able to return and that his indifference and apathy has something to do with it.  At this point Kaladin was not following the first ideal and is not putting the journey before destination or life before death and Syl was weakening because of it.   

 

In which case, she should have reverted to windspren behavior and began to act super-childish like she did with Kaladin when she was telling him he was being naughty. She didn't. She remained as articulate as ever, in fact. I can only conclude that Syl did not weaken when Kaladin was committing suicide. The risk she was worried about seems to be that she was going too far from Kaladin herself. It seems spren are physically bonded to be within a certain distance of their Radiant. She implies it here:

 

She cowered down, kneeling on his palm, misty skirt around her legs, drops of rainwater passing through her and rippling her form. “You don’t like it then? I flew so far…I almost forgot myself. But I came back. I came back, Kaladin.”

Edited March 27, 2014 by Moogle