anders12 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hi all, This is my first time joining a site like this, but there is just too much going on in Brandon's series to not explode one's brain. Anyways, I have been rereading Elantris since I finished Words of Radiance, and I have been wondering if certain cultures/religions on Sel descended from Roshar. Also, I may have a few facts wrong, so please let me know if I remembered something incorrectly from Roshar's or Sel's history. Here are my thoughts: The Vorin Religion tried to take over the world (in essence). The Derethi religion is currently trying to. Vorin priests are called "ardents", while Derethi priests are called "arteths". Further, in Roshar it seems that several names have the "th" phoneme, which seems prominent with the Derethi. Vorinism worships Jezerezeh'Elin. Jezrien was a Herald of Honor, and later became the Stormfather, who seems to be in charge of the spren somehow (or at least the honorspren and windspren). In Sel, there is the Jesker religion. Jesker was believed to be the "overspirit", and the jesker religion involved spirits in general and being in harmony with nature. Furthermore, "Sel" and "Syl" are almost identical.So I have wondered if when the Heirocracy was ending, certain groups of Vorin followers traveled to Sel, and over time words such as "ardent", Jezrien or Jezerezeh, and Syl (which I believe was chosen for a reason, not just because Syl liked it) devolved into arteth, Jezker, and Sel. The Derethi religion would have descended from the Vorins who thought that the church should rule absolutely. I realize that some of these points are thinner than others, but I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts. Thanks! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eerongal Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Welcome to 17th shard! I moved your topic out of "introduce yourself" and into "cosmere theories" because it's likely to garner more attention and discussion there, as well as being the proper forum for this sort of discussion, and off topic for the introduce yourself area. This will help keep spoilers out of an off-topic location. That said, feel free to go create a new introduction topic just saying hello and telling people a bit about yourself, if you wish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Interesting idea. we know that there is "language" bleed/crossover in the Cosmere, so that could be related to what you're seeing here? There does seem to be some linguistic similarities though. Overall, the Stormfather is a Spren, so I doubt that he is Jezrien (a Herald) in any meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 The monotheistic religions on Sel seem to be homegrown, given that they match up with the native Shards. Jeskar could potentially be an import, though, since it seems like a religion liable to spring up on Roshar. There have been some instances of religions that seem to have been imported to Roshar, however. The Purelake religion has a dualistic system with a benevolent god and a jealous god that resembles Trellism from Scadrial, and the benevolent god must only be discussed in sacred caves, which reminds me of anti-Ruin countermeasures. The Envisioners appear to believe in something like Allomantic Snapping, as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Very small point, but Syl is short for Sylphrena, so I wouldn't read too much into that particular phonetic similarity. Also pretty sure I read in another thread recently that Word of Brandon is that all the planets had their names before Adonalsium was shattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Well, if you look closely enough, all religions and mithology have stuff in common. there's only so many different mythologies you can conceive before they start resembling something else. And it's especially true if said mythologies were not created in ancient time over generations but by a single writer. sanderson can only have that much creativity. So I'd say the only thing they have in common is that all those religions worship some shard (it is unclear from the tone of your intervention if you know about the cosmere and the shards of adonalsium, but I'll assume you do; if you don't, google "coppermind wiki adonalsium", it should yield a lot of information). as far as we know, humans were originary from yolen and were spread around by the shards. if I'm correct shards created new humans on the planets they settled, using the original humans as a template. so while humans in the cosmere are not related in the strict genealogical term, they share the same genome - with some adaptations to local environment. the shards spoke the language of yolen, and that language was diffused in the cosmere. millennia of isolation means that said language evolved independently in all the planets, and so the languages spoken there would be very different, but they are still remotely related, thus explaining the phonetical similarities. So, you correctly recognized a pattern of similarities as "people from roshhar and sel are related", but got the wrong conclusions from it: it's not "people on sel come from roshar" but "people from both sel and roshar come from yolen". Also, we know from the letter that odiumm spent some time on sel, where he shattered the local shards. it is possible some of that left trace among the people. There had been much speculation and several questions to sanderson about contacts between planets, but none of those theories ever got confirmed or seemed much likely. As far as we know the only contact among humans from different planets come with the 17th sharders moving around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 We do know that there were human populated worlds pre-Shattering. There are also non-shard worlds with humans on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anders12 Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 @king of nowhere I do know about the shards of adonalsium, thanks for assuming so... - but I have always assumed that people have been traveling between worlds for a while (or at least did in the past) and I wonder how much influence the different populations have on each other. I should have been more clear in my post - I don't mean to say that everyone on Sel came from Roshar, merely that the similarities might suggest that a significant influence/population might have come from Roshar "immigrants" per se. However, I have no basis as far as Brandon quotes or anything so I could be totally off. @Senor Feesh - I know about the Syl/Sylphrena point, and it is a valid one. I just wonder if the name is split in parts, like some names now - for example, Smithson means son of smith. So I wonder if Syl is the root word and phrena is a qualifier of some sort. Then the similarity to Sel might have some significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsworn Panda Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Here's a link that should be helpful. http://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardworld According to it, the inhabitants of the Shardworlds already were developed and inhabited before the Shattering occurred. Good job on your first topic, anders12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Here's a link that should be helpful. http://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardworld According to it, the inhabitants of the Shardworlds already were developed and inhabited before the Shattering occurred. Good job on your first topic, anders12. Not only does the link not say that, at all, but we know for certain that: • Preservation created humans on Scadrial based off normal Yolish humans. • Humans migrated to Roshar at some point, as refugees, around the time Honor/Cultivation arrived We DO know that there was a minimum of ONE planet populated with humans pre-shattering (Yolen), and other planets that were populated with sentient non-humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 As far as I am aware, there has been no explicit confirmation of your second fact, unless I've missed something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't think Syl is the root word. I could be wrong, but I always assumed Brandon chose the name based on the word 'sylph', which is a kind of air or wind spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't think Syl is the root word. I could be wrong, but I always assumed Brandon chose the name based on the word 'sylph', which is a kind of air or wind spirit. Well, considering that her full name is Sylphrena... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsworn Panda Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Okay, it appears I made a few mistakes in my previous post Not only does the link not say that, at all, but we know for certain that: • Preservation created humans on Scadrial based off normal Yolish humans. • Humans migrated to Roshar at some point, as refugees, around the time Honor/Cultivation arrived We DO know that there was a minimum of ONE planet populated with humans pre-shattering (Yolen), and other planets that were populated with sentient non-humans. I had intended to create a hyperlink to http://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard not the Shardworld link. I have also made an error in my facts. There's a part in the coppermind wiki that goes like this: ... taking residence on several different Shardworlds and influencing events on their given planet. Ruin and Preservation made a pact to create life on Scadrial,[13] and constructed humans in the form which they have seen before[14]--presumably on the planet where Adonalsium and these Shardholders came from. Judging from humanity on other Shardworlds, the Shards on those worlds probably created humanity there, too. However, the Shardworlds existed before the Shards arrived there[15] so there is a case to be made that humans already were present during the Shards’ arrivals. I somehow managed to remember it as "humans had already developed their culture when the Shards arrived.". So I apologize for my mistakes. This does, however, does sort of answer the question about why people from Sel are quite similar to people from Roshar. the Shards possibly created humanity using the same design as the humans they saw in Adonalsium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Question Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think there is something here. I've been thinking a lot about the Iriali (sp?) and The Long Trail, perhaps this was one of their stops. If I remember correctly, they call Roshar the 4th World and are on the way to the 7th. (I'm at work right now and I can't double check.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Well, considering that her full name is Sylphrena... Yes, that's my point. I also referenced her full name in a previous post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anders12 Posted April 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) One thing that I have a hard time accepting is that the language similarities among different worlds in the Cosmere comes from the shards' common origin on Yolen. After all, in Elantris we know of at least 3 languages (Fjordell, Arelish, and Duladel), and those are very different. In Mistborn the Terris had their own language separate from the Alendi, and on Roshar there are multiple languages that do not much resemble each other. So why would we assume that two languages from different worlds would be similar just because the creators of the people on those world's had a similar origin? One thing that is interesting is that most of the similarities between Roshar and Sel are between the Alethkar and Fjordell, specifically involving the Vorin religion. And not just linguistically, but in Sel kings are required to bow before Derethi priests, and in Roshar leaders (at least people as high as Dalinar) are expected to show some level of deference, even though they are slaves. Furthermore, even if everyone person who held a shard gave their world the same language, those languages would develop differently. Just the magic systems alone would require different linguistic terms and jargon, not to mention landscape characteristics and weather patterns. A good example is how the storms have influenced Roshar (no wonder Zahel, likely from somewhere else, is constantly frustrated by his inability to express himself). I would also point out that the jump from Sylph to Sel is not a huge one considering how some latin words have evolved into English. However, I do think and freely admit that that similarity is one of my weakest points. Last thought for this post - at a signing I asked Brandon if there were worlds in the Cosmere without magic systems, and he said that there were several - Brandon said that those worlds would not come up in the WoK series, so I don't know if they can be reached by shadesmar, or if they are influenced by shards, but there is definitely unexplored territory. Edited April 2, 2014 by anders12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Shardless worlds have no magic systems, but are still held by realmatic theory. We've seen one in the short story 'Shadows for Silence'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofsoup Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 I thought that Jesker had something to do with Jesks from The Liar of Partinel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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