Dalinar swore the wrong Oaths? Kaladin Wangst. Adolin's Execution. Dividing Man from Dawnsinger...

[Bramble Thorn]

Spoilered for length.
 
TL;DR version is that Dalinars biases are causing him to interpret the visions incorrectly, and this is making Bad Things happen. Also Alodin killing Sadeas was a really good idea, And Kaladins Wangst could have been avoided if he had gone in a slightly different direction. Here is an excerpt...

How I would have liked to see the conflict between Elhokar and Kaladin play out is for Kaladin to sit Dalinar and Elhokar down, and tell them he was one of the Lost Radiants returned. Introduce them to Syl. Inhale Stormlight. And then calmly tell them how their actions in the past had hurt and killed innocent people, and he would be protecting such people from Dalinar and Elhokar in the future. Including being willing to kill them if that was necessary to protect those who could not protect themselves. That until their actions harming the helpless made it necessary to kill them, he was still willing to be their bodyguard, but he would understand if they wanted to find someone else. No clandestine assassinations, No backstabbing. All out in the open. But no ignoring the harm their actions were doing either.
 
Because I want to see what Syl would have said then.

After finishing Words of Radiance, and visiting the forums, an idea has been simmering in my head.
 
Dalinar is his own Tien. He tries, he really does. But he is making some serious mistakes, and people are getting hurt. Specifically, I think he is taking the wrong message from the visions. The obvious wallbanger is naming Amaram founding member and head of the revived Knights Radiant because he heard the Almighty's admonishment "The Knights Radiant must stand again." and did not understand. He was focused on the Destination, and tried to take a shortcut on the Journey. It did not work.
 
But he has made other, worse errors. The conflict with Kaladin in this book, it bothered me. A lot. Because it presented only two options. Assassinate Elhokar from a veil of secrecy, or do nothing. The thing is Elhokar is a bad king. I under stand he tries. I understand he listened to the wrong people. Innocent people still suffered and died because of Elhokar (ab)used his power as king, and they could not protect against him. And Dalinar rubber stamped it because it made less waves. Elhokar does not deserve to die for trying and failing. But the people still need to be protected from him. He asked Kaladin, "I was born to this office, given the throne by the Almighty himself! Why would he give me the title, but not the capacity?" An answer to that is that the Almighty never said that the authority to rule others is a right that earned by mere birth. That is a lie that you have allowed yourself to believe. He does not deserve to be King, not yet. More on this below...
 
Journey before destination, it matters. Dalinar is so fixated in the Desolation and stopping it he is taking shortcuts. The Everstorm might kill you, but the people of Hearthstone face being slowly destroyed on a deeper spiritual level, because Dalinar knowingly and willingly sent a man who had already caused the deaths of at least two innocent people to be in charge there. And they still risk getting killed in the Desolation. The people of Hearthstone could not protect themselves from Roshone, and they could not protect themselves from Danilar. 
 
Kaladin's third Radiant Ideal is “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” This is a good oath, I like it. It means someone you do not like is still deserving of protection. But it has a corollary, that someone can be hurting people and need to be stopped, even if you like them. Even if they saved your life. Dalinar's shortcuts make him one of those people.
 
Now that decision was made years ago, either before the visions started, or when Dalinar had not had them for long. I hope he has changed since then. But he is still doing the same thing, still looking for shortcuts. When Kaladin asked his boon, and Elhokar had his tantrum, he let Kaladin be put in prison, because the king had a temper, and because Kaladin was being inconvenient. This, to me a problem, and created problems in the long run.
 
He is doing all this, and letting Sadeas escape justice, and Amaram, because of what he thinks "Someone must unite them." means, and is giving himself tunnel vision. He is trying to keep the people of Alethi together at the cost of allowing the depredations of the more odious amongst them near free reign. Sadeas is addicted to the Thrill. Look at its effects on Sadeas warcamp; Odium literally reigns there. He allows that to avoid a civil war. This is completely missing the point about what you should be fighting against.
 
When Kaladin is contemplating right and wrong, he thinks to himself "Don’t get revenge upon the king for ordering the death of your grandparents. But do get revenge on the Parshendi for ordering the death of someone you never met." and has problems with the rightness of this. later in the text, he has this telling exchange with Syl...

“Syl,” he said, trying a thrust with the sword, “you’re honorspren. Does that mean you can tell me
the right thing to do?”
“Definitely,” she said, hanging nearby in the form of a young woman, legs swinging off an
invisible ledge. She wasn’t zipping around him in a ribbon, as she often did when he sparred.
“Is it wrong for Moash to try to kill the king?”
“Of course.”
“Why?”
“Because killing is wrong.”
“And the Parshendi I killed?”
“We’ve talked about this. It had to be done.”
“And what if one of them was a Surgebinder,” Kaladin said. “With his own honorspren?”
“Parshendi can’t become Surgebin—”
“Just pretend,” Kaladin said, grunting as he tried another thrust. He wasn’t getting it right. “I’d
guess all the Parshendi want to do at this point is survive. Storms, the ones involved in Gavilar’s
death, they might not even still be alive. Their leaders were executed back in Alethkar, after all. So
you tell me, if a common Parshendi who is protecting his people comes up against me, what would his
honorspren say? That he’s doing the right thing?”
“I . . .” Syl hunched down. She hated questions like this. “It doesn’t matter. You said you won’t kill
the Parshendi anymore.”

 
I see truth in this statement. The war with the Parshendi is wrong. And to stand against the coming storm, Parshendi and Mankind need to stand united against it. 
 
I think in the beginning, the Parshendi were the Dawnsingers, long age before the spren chose to bond with men, before their "gods" the Unmade came courting them and coopted them into Voidbringers. Even if you do not believe that, we know Galivar was not the innocent party in any of this. And what else could they have done when they found out what he was planning? We know from Kaladins that telling those in power in Alethkar does not really work if you say something they do not want to hear. Kaladin told the absolute about something much less outlandish then "Help, your king is trying to turn us into Demons so the Heralds will come back to kill us, and actually thinks we should be thanking him for this atrocity"
 
We have the benefit of knowledge Dalinar does not. But I think if he had not had his skewed ideas about who was worthy of being united, he could have united Man and Parshmen with a lot less atrocities then he allowed in the name of keeping people like Sadeas under the same banner.
 
I think Adolin made the right choice here:
 

Sadeas smiled, and Adolin saw the truth. No, he didn’t believe this, but it was the lie he would tell.
He would start the whisperings again, trying to undermine Dalinar.
“Why?” Adolin asked, stepping up to him. “Why are you like this, Sadeas?”
“Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals,
son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve
been pointed that way since Gavilar died.”
“It doesn’t have to be that way.”
“It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened.
“I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.”
Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.
That’s it.

Sadeas is a disease. And Dalinar was allowing him to fester, to sicken and kill others, in the name of a misplaced ideal. As Shallan said:

“On the contrary,” Shallan said, meeting his eyes, “in my experience, words are where most change begins. I have promised them a second chance. I will keep my promise.”

It is wrong to kill a man for what he might do. It is quite another to kill a unrepentant man for harm he has already done and intends to repeat in the future. Sadeas confessed his intentions. Adolin did no wrong in believing his words and acting on the knowledge. He is a threat to the future. To say that is wrong to to say Kaladin was wrong to chase after Szeth after he flew away, because he was not murdering anyone at that particular moment. Either you execute a Shardbearer or you leave him free. 
 
When Dalinar made his second oath, I think he made it wrong, because it seems he added a caveat it. "I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.” Modern upper class Alethi culture has a lot of just plain wrong crem dung built into it that Dalinar has thus far refused to throw off. The entitlement of of lighteyes is one, the ethnocentrism of men is another. He is trying, but not there yet. 
 
...
 
How I would have liked to see the conflict between Elhokar and Kaladin play out is for Kaladin to sit Dalinar and Elhokar down, and tell them he was one of the Lost Radiants returned. Introduce them to Syl. Inhale stormlight, And then calmly tell them how their actions in the past had hurt and killed innocent people, and he would be protecting such people from Dalinar and Elhokar in the future. Including being willing to kill them if that was necessary to protect those who could not protect themselves. That until their actions harming the helpless made it necessary to kill them, he was still willing to be their bodyguard, but he would understand if they wanted to find someone else. No clandestine assassinations, No backstabbing. All out in the open. But no ignoring the harm their actions were doing either.
 
Because I want to see what Syl would have said then.
 
...
 
I think he has made another mistake; the same one Taravangion made; assuming he has to be the one to be at the center of saving the world. King T asked for himself to have the capacity, and he got it. But he is acting against others who are also trying to save the world, and in fact might have had a better change than he did to succeed, at least before he started undermining them.
 
When Dalinar sought to join the Knights Radiant he said to the Stormfather.

“I have been commanded to refound the Knights Radiant. I will need to join their number if I am to lead them.”

 
But that is not what the visions said...
In the Almighty's final Vision to Dalinar showing the True Desolation,
 
He says, "Someone must lead them."
He says, "Someone must unite them."
He says, "Someone must protect them."
 
Those are Tanavast's words.
 
"I will do it"
"I will do it"
"I will do it"
 
Those words are Dalinars, not the Almighty's. I do not think Dalinar is the leader the Radiants need.
Pillars there were for all ten orders, not one...

[Observer]

Nice ideas! I agree with your opinion on Sadeas, the guy had it coming after all of that. Same goes for Kaladangst, but not only was that basically inevitable in a meta sense, but Kaladin has serious problems and him sitting down and taking things calmly is beyond him most of the time, whether or not it would help. But enough of that.

 

Dalinar has more oaths to swear, I think that's what we have here. I agree that he is probably heaping a little too much on himself instead of passing it along to the others, and I agree that he seems to still be taking shortcuts. However, I don't think this is the fault of any of his oaths. He just has part of the picture, like Kaladin wondering if it's okay to just not protect the king. On that note, the guy is trying to be a good king, and even if he's sucking at it, there aren't a whole lot of other people who can rule, and IDK how abdicating the throne works with the Alethi. What the king needs is a firmer hand, which is basically what's being tried now. Somebody to keep him from being a stone-cold retarded idiot. In the name of Cultivation, I'm sure he can be allowed to grow. The Dawnsingers thing seems fair enough, though we don't know a whole lot there, and yes, none of this is nearly as well articulated as your post, sorry for the textblock, I'll shut up now.

[Moogle]

Interesting thoughts. I find it hilarious that we've essentially come to the same conclusions despite the fact that I would say I lean more towards The Journey Is Just As Important As The Destination Please Stop Separating The Two. I'm also tickled by the fact that I'm no longer the only person to really seriously criticize Dalinar on these forums (so far as I've seen).

 

But he has made other, worse errors. The conflict with Kaladin in this book, it bothered me. A lot. Because it presented only two options. Assassinate Elhokar from a veil of secrecy, or do nothing. The thing is Elhokar is a bad king. I under stand he tries. I understand he listened to the wrong people. Innocent people still suffered and died because of Elhokar (ab)used his power as king, and they could not protect against him. And Dalinar rubber stamped it because it made less waves. Elhokar does not deserve to die for trying and failing. But the people still need to be protected from him. He asked Kaladin, "I was born to this office, given the throne by the Almighty himself! Why would he give me the title, but not the capacity?" An answer to that is that the Almighty never said that the authority to rule others is a right that earned by mere birth. That is a lie that you have allowed yourself to believe. He does not deserve to be King, not yet. More on this below...

 

I agree completely with this and your further thoughts. Elhokar is a horrible king and should have stepped down. Learning to be a great leader might not come naturally to everyone, but Elhokar can learn to lead in a position where his mistakes don't cost the lives of other people.

 

 

Journey before destination, it matters. Dalinar is so fixated in the Desolation and stopping it he is taking shortcuts. The Everstorm might kill you, but the people of Hearthstone face being slowly destroyed on a deeper spiritual level, because Dalinar knowingly and willingly sent a man who had already caused the deaths of at least two innocent people to be in charge there. And they still risk getting killed in the Desolation. The people of Hearthstone could not protect themselves from Roshone, and they could not protect themselves from Danilar. 

 

Thank you for bringing this one up. Ugh. The entire Roshone situation stinks. Dalinar just hushing everything up really made me feel icky. He's indirectly responsible for Tien's death and Roshone really should not have been exiled to a location where he could hurt more people (and Elhokar not being punished at all for killing two people, really?).

 

 

Now that decision was made years ago, either before the visions started, or when Dalinar had not had them for long. I hope he has changed since then. But he is still doing the same thing, still looking for shortcuts. When Kaladin asked his boon, and Elhokar had his tantrum, he let Kaladin be put in prison, because the king had a temper, and because Kaladin was being inconvenient. This, to me a problem, and created problems in the long run.

 

This was one of the more irritating parts of the book to me. Darnit Dalinar.

 

 

He is doing all this, and letting Sadeas escape justice, and Amaram, because of what he thinks "Someone must unite them." means, and is giving himself tunnel vision. He is trying to keep the people of Alethi together at the cost of allowing the depredations of the more odious amongst them near free reign. Sadeas is addicted to the Thrill. Look at its effects on Sadeas warcamp; Odium literally reigns there. He allows that to avoid a civil war. This is completely missing the point about what you should be fighting against.

 

I agree that Sadeas should have been fought much earlier. I think he should have been assassinated the moment Sadeas betrayed Dalinar at the Tower. So... I think we agree on what Dalinar should have been doing, but maybe disagree on methods?

 

 

 
When Kaladin is contemplating right and wrong, he thinks to himself "Don’t get revenge upon the king for ordering the death of your grandparents. But do get revenge on the Parshendi for ordering the death of someone you never met." and has problems with the rightness of this. later in the text, he has this telling exchange with Syl...

 
I see truth in this statement. The war with the Parshendi is wrong. And to stand against the coming storm, Parshendi and Mankind need to stand united against it. 

 

I've argued about this at length in other threads, so I will simply say that I agree with you and would write an essay if I hadn't already written several on the subject. The war with the Parshendi is a ridiculous waste of life. The Alethi are not automatons and could have agreed not to go to war with the Parshendi. Dalinar should have pushed for peace more strongly instead of giving up at the first sign of resistance.

 

 

When Dalinar made his second oath, I think he made it wrong, because it seems he added a caveat it. "I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.” Modern upper class Alethi culture has a lot of just plain wrong crem dung built into it that Dalinar has thus far refused to throw off. The entitlement of of lighteyes is one, the ethnocentrism of men is another. He is trying, but not there yet. 

 

I agree that Dalinar should and could do more, but I think it's unreasonable to hold him to modern standards. He is a product of his society, and cannot see all of its flaws, and doesn't even see what we could consider flaws as flaws. Still, most of the criticism you bring up about him rings true to me.

 

How I would have liked to see the conflict between Elhokar and Kaladin play out is for Kaladin to sit Dalinar and Elhokar down, and tell them he was one of the Lost Radiants returned. Introduce them to Syl. Inhale stormlight, And then calmly tell them how their actions in the past had hurt and killed innocent people, and he would be protecting such people from Dalinar and Elhokar in the future. Including being willing to kill them if that was necessary to protect those who could not protect themselves. That until their actions harming the helpless made it necessary to kill them, he was still willing to be their bodyguard, but he would understand if they wanted to find someone else. No clandestine assassinations, No backstabbing. All out in the open. But no ignoring the harm their actions were doing either.
 
Because I want to see what Syl would have said then.

 

Syl would have said it was wrong probably because she likes Dalinar. I think it would be interesting regardless.

 

 

I do not think Dalinar is the leader the Radiants need.

 

I agree that Dalinar is not ideal, but I would argue he's the best they've got (besides, perhaps, Kaladin... but he took a step down for me in WoR, so perhaps just put Mr. T as leader of the Radiants?).

[Gloom]

I think you pretty much picked Elhokars problem out. He believes that he was predestined to be king, and as a result, he is terrible king. Elhokar believes that he has the right to rule, not an obligation to serve.

 

Dalinar is going to have a hard time forcing Kaladin to do anything now. Kaladin is in a fairly unique position in that he has vowed he would never allow himself to become a prisoner again, he is the only Shardbearing Radiant who has any training in weapons, and Dalinar has no Shards at all. Dalinar didn't seem to want Kaladin to leave Urithiru and travel to Hearthstone, but it didn't seem like he had the mean to prevent him from doing so. If Dalinar is going to be an effective leader, he will have to learn to bend both his own desires and the desires of others to a similar purpose. If he can't manage that, then he will never bring enough Radiants into line to hold the desolation at bay. Defeating the Black Thorn without Shards would be a simple matter for a Radiant, so his success is entirely dependent on his ability as a spokesman from this juncture forth.

 

The Kholin family as a whole, with the exception of the youngest son (who will remain nameless for this threads safety), could really benefit from a touch of humility.

[happyman]

The Kholin family as a whole, with the exception of the youngest son (who will remain nameless for this threads safety), could really benefit from a touch of humility.

 

I think this sums it up pretty well.

 

Although I think the Kholin's are better than most of the choices that have been put forward, that is easily their biggest weakness.

Ironically, Elhokar might be the furthest along that road already.  The rest of them are too competent at something.

[Aminar]

That word you use, "Horrible King" I don't think it means what you think it means. Elhokar is a weak king. He's made mistakes and killed more than a few people. But He's the ruler of Millions of people(based on the population of the shattered plains, and it mainly being the military branch of the country.) He managed to pick up a country that had barely been unified and keep it together for six years without any of his powerful rivals killing and supplanting him. He's kept the nation at the forefront of the world. That's an amazing thing on it's own. When it comes right down to it, leaders make decisions. Leaders of nations will have lives on their head, not all of them justifiable. Nothing Elhokar has done has made him a horrible king. He's not a dictator ripping his country apart. He hasn't fostered massive Rebellions(up until now, and I blame that on his wife) The Vengeance pact is stupid. But He didn't make that decision. His legislative body(The High Princes) did. In Six years a horrible King would have destroyed Alethkar, leaving it a squabbling mess of warring High Princes rampaging across the land willy nilly. He managed to not do that. Not much more can be asked of him.

[happyman]

That word you use, "Horrible King" I don't think it means what you think it means. Elhokar is a weak king. He's made mistakes and killed more than a few people. But He's the ruler of Millions of people(based on the population of the shattered plains, and it mainly being the military branch of the country.) He managed to pick up a country that had barely been unified and keep it together for six years without any of his powerful rivals killing and supplanting him. He's kept the nation at the forefront of the world. That's an amazing thing on it's own. When it comes right down to it, leaders make decisions. Leaders of nations will have lives on their head, not all of them justifiable. Nothing Elhokar has done has made him a horrible king. He's not a dictator ripping his country apart. He hasn't fostered massive Rebellions(up until now, and I blame that on his wife) The Vengeance pact is stupid. But He didn't make that decision. His legislative body(The High Princes) did. In Six years a horrible King would have destroyed Alethkar, leaving it a squabbling mess of warring High Princes rampaging across the land willy nilly. He managed to not do that. Not much more can be asked of him.

 

More than a little of this can be attributed to the fact that Dalinar is his Uncle and everybody knows it.  Combine this with Sadeas' support and you have a king who's being propped up.  Without Dalinar's help, he probably would have ended up in exactly the mess you describe.

[Cracknut]

That word you use, "Horrible King" I don't think it means what you think it means. Elhokar is a weak king. He's made mistakes and killed more than a few people. But He's the ruler of Millions of people(based on the population of the shattered plains, and it mainly being the military branch of the country.) He managed to pick up a country that had barely been unified and keep it together for six years without any of his powerful rivals killing and supplanting him. He's kept the nation at the forefront of the world. That's an amazing thing on it's own. When it comes right down to it, leaders make decisions. Leaders of nations will have lives on their head, not all of them justifiable. Nothing Elhokar has done has made him a horrible king. He's not a dictator ripping his country apart. He hasn't fostered massive Rebellions(up until now, and I blame that on his wife) The Vengeance pact is stupid. But He didn't make that decision. His legislative body(The High Princes) did. In Six years a horrible King would have destroyed Alethkar, leaving it a squabbling mess of warring High Princes rampaging across the land willy nilly. He managed to not do that. Not much more can be asked of him.

He is a horrible king, because he didn't do anything. Even if he tried to live up to your understanding of "Horrible King" he would've ended up dead. Highprinces would kill him and even Dalinar wouldn't defend him at that point. Actually if Dalinar wanted him turned into that kind of king, he would've done it easily. I'll rather have a tyrant king who kills his own people for fun than someone who doesn't understands whats he's doing and follows someones advises without consideration.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Cracknut

[Asha'man Logain]

As to Dalinar's oath, I think you are missing some key punctuation. "I will unite instead of divide." That is the Oath he spoke. That is what was accepted by the stormfather. "I will unite men" was a corollary, a statement he believes is a reiteration of his Oath. I agree (and have since book 1) that Dalinar (or whoever gets to see the visions) should unite them in the broadest sense of the term. Unite the. Unite Roshar. Not just the Alethi, not just humankind (which may be a pretty loose term on this particular world), but all of Roshar that would not see Odium reign.

[shadewolf]

 

The Kholin family as a whole, with the exception of the youngest son (who will remain nameless for this threads safety), could really benefit from a touch of humility.

 

to be fair, I think that the majority of the characters in series, could do from a touch of humility, including kaladin. Sure the guy is beaten down constantly, but I would never dare to say he's humble, and he faces alot of the problems of dalinar, just he's on the opposite side of the societal spectrum.

[Aminar]

He is a horrible king, because he didn't do anything. Even if he tried to live up to your understanding of "Horrible King" he would've ended up dead. Highprinces would kill him and even Dalinar wouldn't defend him at that point. Actually if Dalinar wanted him turned into that kind of king, he would've done it easily. I'll rather have a tyrant king who kills his own people for fun than someone who doesn't understands whats he's doing and follows someones advises without consideration.

Because we know so much about what happened in the six years between Gavilar's death and The Way of Kings. Hell, we know absolutley zero about what Elhokar has done as a king. We know that before Gavilar's death he threw a couple undeserving people in jail, and we know he's led his people on a long, drawn out, profitable war that has kept Alethkar as the single most powerful nation on Roshar. Hell it may have even made Alethkar that important. All we have to go off of is that he listens to his subordinates, which any good king would, and Moash's complaints from before he was even king. Elhokar isn't an amazing King. But our defintion of amazing King is conquering Warlord given the rulers we historically celebrate, Instead He's been nothing but stable for the kingdom. Alethi thinking he is a bad king doesn't mean much. Alethi are almost by defintion, greedy warmongering idiots. Elhokar has focused and united that into a setting that hasn't turned the world against them. Personally, that's amazing. And Dalinar didn't do much of that...

[taliefer]

He says, "Someone must lead them." (?)
He says, "Someone must unite them."(Dalinar)
He says, "Someone must protect them." (Kaladin)

 

these are very, very interesting to me after WoR. Kaladins oaths are about protecting. Dalinar's about uniting. i dont think we've met the leader yet. that could be another theory all its own.

[Rybal]

Elkohar is not a horrible king, but neither is he a good king. At this point, he is still very new to the position and is surrounded by people that are constantly plotting for a slight elevation over one another. He trusted the wrong people and didn't follow-up to see what the results of his actions were. At least he sees that he's not a very good king and wants to improve. I'll take that any day.

 

Also, as for Dalinar not standing up for Kaladin, there are a few potential reasons why he didn't. (1) He already investigated and found all of those witnesses that supported Amaram - regardless of their accuracy. (2) He was caught off guard by Kaladin's demand and couldn't really do anything at that moment. (3) He couldn't risk standing against the king in a very public setting. He couldn't undermine all that he had worked towards because of the action of a single individual.

 

Oh, and the Bondsmiths seem to be the most likely division to lead the KR, since it appears that they can initiate Nahel bonds. At least, that was the impression that I got from some of the epigraphs.

[Cracknut]

Because we know so much about what happened in the six years between Gavilar's death and The Way of Kings. calamity, we know absolutley zero about what Elhokar has done as a king. We know that before Gavilar's death he threw a couple undeserving people in jail, and we know he's led his people on a long, drawn out, profitable war that has kept Alethkar as the single most powerful nation on Roshar. calamity it may have even made Alethkar that important. All we have to go off of is that he listens to his subordinates, which any good king would, and Moash's complaints from before he was even king. Elhokar isn't an amazing King. But our defintion of amazing King is conquering Warlord given the rulers we historically celebrate, Instead He's been nothing but stable for the kingdom. Alethi thinking he is a bad king doesn't mean much. Alethi are almost by defintion, greedy warmongering idiots. Elhokar has focused and united that into a setting that hasn't turned the world against them. Personally, that's amazing. And Dalinar didn't do much of that...

There is a difference between bad person and bad king. He's obviously a good guy but he is a bad king. He needs to remind people of his status. He has no real power. Nobody respects him as a king. He can't lead and he has a ideology of a child. He knows that he's bad at it and wants to be better but if wanting and trying aren't enough.

[junior]

There is a difference between bad person and bad king. He's obviously a good guy but he is a bad king. He needs to remind people of his status. He has no real power. Nobody respects him as a king. He can't lead and he has a ideology of a child. He knows that he's bad at it and wants to be better but if wanting and trying aren't enough.

 

Currently, I don't think he knows how to go about learning how to be a good king.  Given that's the sort of thing that the heir to the throne is supposed to learn while growing up, I suspect that his father dropped the ball here.  And Dalinar's habit of not delegating isn't going to help matters, either.

[hoser]

Elhokar may not be a terrible king, but he is not a good king either. He just doesn't really lead. It creates a vacuum, which Dalinar, Sadeas and Roshone have all filled at various points. As Gloom said above, he is not trying to serve, which is needed.

His goals are (quotes to be added later): not let the kingdom fall apart (preserve his father's legacy), not be assassinated and be a king to be remembered. None of those help him do anything. The first two goals are negative and the other is childish and vague. Dalinar has pieces of vision and is iterating toward where he needs to go. Elhokar, floating around like a jellyfish, can only follow or react. It is telling that, with Dalinar gone and an opportunity to figure out what to do, like maybe by having the in-world WoK read to him, he drinks himself senseless. He did ask Kaladin for help, but he was even then without a center. If Kaladin had told him what to do, it would have been little different from following what Roshone told him to do.

As for the leadership of the Radiants, I think all the orders will lead in their own ways. As in the Tower battle, Kaladin (or Jezrien if he can be salvaged, or whoever is the head of the Windrunners) will perform many of the apparent leadership duties. Dalinar will work to hold the orders together behind the scenes with a different, more supportive kind of leadership. The knights will be a confederation, more than a hierarchy, with orders working together, rather than being commanded by one order or person.

A leader can't be too far ahead of those he leads. S/He needs his actions to be one step better than the people s/he leads. Even if the leader can see three steps ahead, s/he can't act that way. Elhokar, not Roshone, put Moash's grandparents in prison and let them rot there when they challenged his decision. The feudal system allowed Roshone to conscript Tien into the army.  Lirin and Hesina could have worked to maintain more popular support in Hearthstone, but allowed themselves to be isolated. Elhokar should have been punished for what he did, but how do you punish a king without undermining him?

If pre-Radiant Dalinar had tried to keep Elhokar as king, hold Alethkar together and abolish gender/lighteye/darkeye/nahn/dahn distinctions (running against the church teachings), I doubt it would have worked. Dalinar may not have been perfect, but there may not have been perfect solutions available to him. Even Kaladin, with a much simpler set of issues, worked himself into a snarl that took a deus ex machina to get out of.

TL:DR; It is a very rich story in that the issues are not clear-cut.

Edited March 18, 2014 by hoser

[Aminar]

It's more that from a Historical perspective Elhokar is pretty much average. He's what the common people want out of a king.(Not interfering. Not inviting attackers to conquer the country. Not messing with what they do.) Go back and look at Historical Kings before you judge Elhokar based on what we see in the books. Then remember the historical bias that romantices many kings. Elhokar can only be called a horrible king in regards to modern governmental methodologies, something Roshar has little to no concept of. Compared to other Monarchies, he's average. And Given the scale really goes between Conquerer who expands his nation, Average, Tyrant who represses his people, Average is as good as Kings get. (Roshar is in no way ready for a governmental renaissance where Kings start hadning off power to Democratic bodies.

[Slater]

 

I agree that Dalinar is not ideal, but I would argue he's the best they've got (besides, perhaps, Kaladin... but he took a step down for me in WoR, so perhaps just put Mr. T as leader of the Radiants?).

Funny he actually took a step UP for me and he was already my favorite. Mainly cause his arc has a lot of parallels to someone with depression seeing therapy. The end of WoK was basically Kaladin having his breakthrough like a patient making a breakthrough in therapy. But then in WoR he backslides. Which is a very common thing with real life depression where people make a breakthrough but then backslide because they become frustrated that having a breakthrough does not immediately fix everything. So he has to keep working at it.

 

Anyway I think he defiantly COULD be the KRs future leader. The Wind Runners are all about protecting and leading and as of the end of WoR he mostly has the protecting thing down and his last two oaths are likely going to be about leading. Which ties in perfectly with the next book where he is probably going to have to lead the people of his hometown and Kholinar to survive, thus molding him to be the true leader the KR's need. It could even tie into Dalinars development by having him finally acknowledge that he has to relinquish power over the KR to someone who is just better suited for it. Which could help him along his own path as a Bond Smith.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Slater130

[straits]

Spoilered for length.

 

TL;DR version is that Dalinars biases are causing him to interpret the visions incorrectly, and this is making Bad Things happen. Also Alodin killing Sadeas was a really good idea, And Kaladins Wangst could have been avoided if he had gone in a slightly different direction. Here is an excerpt...

After finishing Words of Radiance, and visiting the forums, an idea has been simmering in my head.

 

 

I think Kaladin's Wangst makes him more human. Maybe sitting down and revealing his abilities would have been the logical thing to do, but he, much like all other characters, doesn't have the benefit of the reader's omniscient perspective. And on top of that, he is a man with trust issues specific to lighteyes. A "regular" person would be cautious with revealing information, let alone a paranoid foot soldier with PTSD.

[Moogle]

Also, as for Dalinar not standing up for Kaladin, there are a few potential reasons why he didn't. (1) He already investigated and found all of those witnesses that supported Amaram - regardless of their accuracy. (2) He was caught off guard by Kaladin's demand and couldn't really do anything at that moment. (3) He couldn't risk standing against the king in a very public setting. He couldn't undermine all that he had worked towards because of the action of a single individual.

 

(3) As the original poster said, this is completely against journey before destination. Not opposing Elhokar when Elhokar was in the wrong because Dalinar doesn't want to undermine his work is putting destination before journey. Either you're for it or against it, really. Applying it partially means you don't really believe in it.

 

(And that's okay with me. But how can Dalinar preach journey before destination when he's not willing to do it? I wish Dalinar could just plain give it up.)

Edited March 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Aminar]

(3) As the original poster said, this is completely against journey before destination. Not opposing Elhokar when Elhokar was in the wrong because Dalinar doesn't want to undermine his work is putting destination before journey. Either you're for it or against it, really. Applying it partially means you don't really believe in it.

 

(And that's okay with me. But how can Dalinar preach journey before destination when he's not willing to do it? I wish Dalinar could just plain give it up.)

Because the Radiant's have to take their Journey before destination, not force the philosophy on others. They can lead but they cannot coerce. They can influence but not force. Dalinar cannot take away Elhokar's agency without betraying his own journey. Nor can he take power. The Radiant's live up to their own code, but they aren't a church or a Government. They don't force others.(Although the Skybreakers as we've seen them violate this a little, but they seem an odd collection to begin with and we'll need to see more later.)

In addition Dalinar may learn eventually that he has to supplant Elhokar. I'm not sure... It could eventually fit his oaths.

[Moogle]

Dalinar cannot take away Elhokar's agency without betraying his own journey.

 

That's not what journey before destination means, I think. It has everything to do with your journey. Otherwise, nobody could harm anyone else without harming their journey and that would be weird for Orders like the Windrunners. The Voidbringers would have just as much a right to their journey, after all.

 

 

Nor can he take power. The Radiant's live up to their own code, but they aren't a church or a Government. They don't force others.

 

Why can't he take power if that's what he feels is right? Journey before destination means not worrying about the effects of your actions (say... civil war if Dalinar takes over), it means doing what is 'right'.

 

Allowing Amaram to walk free despite him being a murderer because Dalinar couldn't afford to leave the nation in civil war is putting destination before the journey. He's committing an 'evil' act (letting a murderer go free) because he doesn't want the negative consequences. It's like, the definition of destination before journey. Similarly, not stopping Sadeas allows a horrible person to go free. The original poster talked about Sadeas at length.

 

I'm okay with this sort of thing. Civil war is bad. I would prefer if the Radiants were not shackled to a philosophy like that. I'm just not okay with Dalinar preaching journey before destination and joining the Radiants while doing that. Hypocrisy leaves me sad.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Leonardus]

Those words from the vision are VERY VERY interesting.

Personally I hadnt given it a though until this thread but it looks to me as if Tanavest has been seeing the future and given out a few hints to help whomever sees his vision.

For protection it is quite obvious that this is a reference to Kaladin, as for uniting and leading that's a bit more difficult, from the oaths we can quickly assume that Dalinar is going to unite them but currently we do not have a candidate for leading(and Tanavest indicates that three people will be  needed!),

So I quickly realized that we had 3 main PoV characters: Shallan Kaladin and Dalinar who were also surgebinders and not quite dead yet.

Dalinar will lead (He already does this)

Kaladin will protect.

And as for Shallan we have seen how adept she is at getting people to listen to her (her journey after the shipbreak and uniting the 3 groups is in support of this theory I believe) also I remember that there was an epigraph mentioning how the lightweavers did some funky spiritual things that I cant remember now, that inspired people.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Leonardus

[Aminar]

Journey before destination means the ends doesn't justify the means. It does not mean the ends can be terrible so long as the methodology in getting there was right. The Radiant's are clearly designed to be an extra-governmental organization bent on creating a greater good while not breaking a strict personal code. They're the Rosharian Superhero Red Cross(With extra Awesome) Supplanting a King and taking over a country seems pretty outside of that.

You're taking the philosophy to the farthest extreme, when it was set up to be an idealistic organization. It's set up to control the power, to prevent the Radiants from taking over.(This is spelled out in the exerpts from the in world Words of Radiance.) You're not taking that into account, which appears to be what makes Darkness the problem he is.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Aminar

[name_here]

If Dalinar supplanted Elhokar by force, it would destroy everything he and Gavilar worked for. Oh, he could hold Alethkar together by force of will and military skill, but there would be no legitimacy to it. He would be in charge purely by virtue of force, and there would be no reason for anyone in the kingdom to support the king over someone else who had a larger army. One of Saedas's criticisms that actually has merit is Dalinar's trouble with giving up power and having it stay given up; while there's a good reason for it, every time he sets up a system that takes power away from him and then works against it he undermines his grounds for insisting other people respect the system. Overthrowing Elhokar would be the same thing on a grand scale. If Alethkar survived that, it would be because Dalinar personally is capable of inspiring the loyalty of enough military strength to force everyone to heel.

 

So what will happen when he dies and someone else takes power? If his successor is more like Elhokar than Dalinar, Alethkar would crumble. He wouldn't even be able to count on another Highprince like Dalinar to back him up, because Dalinar's actions would scream to everyone that kings rule by personal strength and for no other reason. If someone isn't strong enough to rule by their own merits, there would be no reason for anyone to support them instead of overthrowing them.

 

Now, sure Gavilar took control by force, but that's why it's so critical Dalinar doesn't. The legitimacy of the crown is on fairly shaky ground because it was recently established by force, and overthrowing Elhokar would permanently ruin its chances to gain more.

Edited March 18, 2014 by name_here