Not Convinced By Darkness

[Otto Didact]

Was anyone else not entirely convinced that Darkness is actually Nalan? He didn't actually even say that he was--he just let Szeth draw his own conclusions. I mean, it's clear that the Heralds are capable of being selfish, giving up, and other human things, but Nalan going around and executing judgment on Surgebinders doesn't sound very Herald-ish. That along with giving Szeth (who's pretty crazy at this point) the most dangerous sword in the cosmere, just feels wrong.

 

I have no other evidence to support my assumption, but I think Darkness is probably somebody running around with Nalan's Honorblade and delusions of grandeur (or nefarious plans of his own) or a rogue Skybreaker just pretending to be Nalan to further his own ends.

 

Thoughts? Anything I'm missing?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Paydirt

[tareth]

Was anyone else not entirely convinced that Darkness is actually Nalan? He didn't actually even say that he was--he just let Szeth draw his own conclusions. I mean, it's clear that the Heralds are capable of being selfish, giving up, and other human things, but Nalan going around and executing judgment on Surgebinders doesn't sound very Herald-ish. That along with giving Szeth (who's pretty crazy at this point) the most dangerous sword in the cosmere, just feels wrong.

 

I have no other evidence to support my assumption, but I think Darkness is probably somebody running around with Nalan's Honorblade and delusions of grandeur (or nefarious plans of his own) or a rogue Skybreaker just pretending to be Nalan to further his own ends.

 

Thoughts? Anything I'm missing?

 

 

He seems to be under the impression that letting Surgebinders run loose will bring on another Desolation (given what he says to Lift in the interlude). As a Herald, he would have a bit more knowledge of how Desolations work than I do, so, maybe there's justification for it? I don't know, honestly. Those are my thoughts, though.

[The Dwarf in the Sphere]

It's hard to say. We don't really have enough information on Darkness or Nalan to say for certain. At this point I am inclined to believe it, though keeping open enough to accept the alternative. It would show just how far the Heralds have fallen from grace. They betrayed one of their own and left him to face Damnation alone. After such a desperate and deplorable act as abandoning Taln was, is it so hard to believe that some might just about do anything to not relieve those days? Just how sane could they be after all that time, living with that guilt?

*shrug*

[Moogle]

I think Nalan's hunting of Surgebinders is connected to the Recreance. Take the most honorable men on Roshar, then realize they sacrificed their oaths and condemned their spren to untold years of agony because of a single secret. It would have to be really bad, like "Radiants cause the Desolations"-level bad.

 

Nalan would know the secret, and it's apparently bad enough that he feels it is worth it to hunt down Surgebinders. The Radiants felt it was bad enough to break their oaths. Nalan seems a bit... cracked... but I don't believe he's mistaken in what he intends to accomplish. He just failed to kill enough Surgebinders to prevent the Desolation. I'm not sure though. I get the impression that Nalan is trying to pretend he never broke his oaths and just didn't go back to Damnation because he feels he could prevent one from happening again. It's one way to deal with the guilt, I suppose.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Seloun]

I'm reasonably convinced Nin is really a Herald; it seems to be the explanation with the least number of assumptions necessary.

 

We know Shallash has been going on defacing images of herself for whatever reason; Nin's behavior doesn't seem all that crazy in comparison, and fits with the theme of corrupted justice. He's also very familiar with Szeth's activities, with the Shin, and has a fabrial that replicates Regrowth. He was at Gavilar's assassination talking to someone who referred to an 'Ash' and who might have been aware of Honorblades. He also somehow knew where Szeth was going to fall, or was able to find Szeth very quickly after he fell.

 

If he's not a Herald, he's someone with a huge amount of information about almost everything and is capable of finding Surgebinders. I'm not sure what he could be if he's not a Herald or something pretty close to it. It's possible he's just some random guy that happens to be similar to Herald-level knowledge and capabilities, but from a narrative standpoint that would be weird. Szeth also seems to recognize his appearance; this might be taken as just having seen him before at Gavilar's assassination, but the tone of it seems to imply that Szeth actually recognizes him as the Herald.

 

Unless Nin was pulling everyone's leg, he has a lot of respect for Szeth:

 

 

Nin cocked his head. “You? Not worthy? I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo, I watched you keep your word with perfection. This is a thing lost to most people —it is the only genuine beauty in the world. I doubt I have ever found a man more worthy of the Skybreakers than you.”

 

It's not really that crazy that he'd give Szeth a powerful weapon if he's being honest in his assessment. From his perspective, Szeth isn't crazy, he's worthy.

 

The comment about beauty is interesting, too, if we go back to discussion Hoid has with Shallan:

 

 

“I . . .” What did this have to do with anything? “Does the pain change day by day?”

 

“Let us say it does,” the messenger said.

 

“Then beauty , to that person, would be the times when the pain lessens. Why are you telling me this story?”

 

Finding someone who keeps his word to perfection is what alleviates Nin's pain.

[Chrono]

Darkness being Nin is the easiest explanation, as mentioned above. Kalak mentions that they were all broken when he spoke with Jezrien. Out of all the heralds, the one I feel the least bad for is Taln, actually. Sure, he's wacko due to being tortured for five thousand odd years, but he hasn't lived with all the guilt and warping that breaking the Oathpact did to all the other Heralds. Shalash is wandering around destroying anything that looks like her. Nin is gathering men who murder in the name of justice. Five thousand years of carrying that shame and self-loathing has got to leave them mentally and emotionally scarred. 

 

In short, Taln may be restored to sanity. But some of the other Heralds - mainly Nin -  may be beyond redemption.

[Otto Didact]

Good points all around. Seloun, I don't think I connected that the guy at Gavilar's party with the mark was Darkness. I'll have to reread that part. I think the only other thing that makes me distrust the assumption that he is Nalan is that he was the last of the Heralds to accept association with an Order of Knights Radiant. 

 

 

And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan'Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 5, page 17

Doesn't seem like the kind of guy who looks for recruits.

 

In any case, maybe Brandon just has me jumping at shadows. I was just curious to see if anyone else had the same initial reaction as I did to that scene.

[darkanimereal1]

What bothers me is how he blatantly lies to Szeth about Nightblood. He calls him a shardblade. And Nightblood just... isn't. Someone in a different thread posted a really great argument that Nightblood is more like a shardblade's opposite in nearly every aspect, so I suppose it's not too far from the truth. But at the same time, it's a huge red flag to me. How did he get Nightblood? If he has any idea of what NIghtblood actually is, then he's got to know that Nightblood isn't a shardblade. And if that's the case, then why is he lying to Szeth about it?

My brother actually had a theory that the ten heralds are slowly becoming perversions of themselves and morphing into the ten fools instead. With how insane Darkness is acting, if he actually is Nalan, then I could totally believe this.

[Moogle]

What bothers me is how he blatantly lies to Szeth about Nightblood. He calls him a shardblade. And Nightblood just... isn't. Someone in a different thread posted a really great argument that Nightblood is more like a shardblade's opposite in nearly every aspect, so I suppose it's not too far from the truth. B

 

Brandon has stated that Nightblood is a Shardblade, and what's more that it is essentially an Honorblade (its construction was the same, basically). I don't think Nin lied here, or that he has ever lied since he's been a Herald (perhaps he did when the Oathpact was broken?). It doesn't seem his style. He's fanatically devoted to the law, and 'lying' does not strike me as being part of that.

[AerionBFII]

I get this! When he was chasing Lift he was unaware that Edgedancers consumed food to make Stormlight? I'm not sure if this was because each Order tried to keep a level of secrecy about their abilities or Nalan took no notice of them (Skybreakers were apparently difficult to get along with)

 

That in my opinion that seems suspicious after fighting all those Desolation's with the Knights Radiants he would not have noticed this?

 

He seemed to think Surgebinders running around would cause another Desolation which he wanted to prevent. 

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Edgedancers don't consume food for stormlight, only lift does. It's a unique boon/curse (don't know which) she received from the night mother.

Edit: the quotes that tell us this if you were interested:

“Of course, no matter how I manifest, nobody can touch me, as I barely have any substance in this Realm.”

“Nobody but me,” Lift whispered, inching down the hallway”

“You shouldn’t be able to either,” he said, sounding troubled. “What did you ask for, when you visited my mother?”

“Somehow, you are partly in the Cognitive Realm,”

“It is the only answer I can find to why you can touch spren. And you can metabolize food directly into Stormlight.”

Edited March 18, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[The Count]

I get this! When he was chasing Lift he was unaware that Edgedancers consumed food to make Stormlight? I'm not sure if this was because each Order tried to keep a level of secrecy about their abilities or Nalan took no notice of them (Skybreakers were apparently difficult to get along with)

Edgedancers (the order) do not use food to create Stormlight.

Lift is unique in this respect, which is why Darkness / Nalan was caught out by her. He spent a lot of time and effort to keep Lift away from spheres to prevent her sucking in the Stormlight (as, presumable, conventional edgedancers do).

Lift got her unique ability from the Old Magic / Nightwatcher.

I think Darkness = Nalan is pretty much certain at this point given his knowledge and proclivities.

EDIT: NINJA'd !!

Edited March 18, 2014 by The Count

[PrinceCatel]

First off, this is my first post, so I'll try not to embarrass myself. Secondly, I'm at work so I'll have to make it short and sweet for now. 

 

Assuming the sword Nalan gives to Szeth is actually Nightblood, which seems a VERY safe assumption given the description and the sword speaking to him, this leads us to the question "How did Nightblood get to Roshar and why does Nalan have it?" I was reading the possible Vasher - Zahel theories and I have to say it's intriguing. It hardly seems Vasher would just give up Nightblood, but I find it more than suspicious if they happen to be separated but both be in the same place (ie a place they, by all "reasonable" means, shouldn't even be).

 

The Heralds must still be around somewhere, and given the current state of the world, I would bet they start making a more obvious appearance (for better or worse). 

[Helwar]

First of all, Hi! I’m new to posting, though I have been reading for a few days. Secondly… English is not my primary language and though I have no problems reading or listening it, I find myself lacking words and vocabulary when I talk/write. So if I repeat the same word or idiom over and over again… sorry. Bear with me please. I’ll improve over time.

Also, this whole post should be in SPOILER brackets, but since the thread is already sooooooo much spoilerish, I won’t tag it. Correct me if I’m wrong by not doing so

 

 

Here we go:

I think that the nature of Heralds isn’t properly known yet, but it’s safe to assume that Darkness is indeed Nin the Herald, if only just because Szeth says so. I believe in Szeth’s words, his actions after he met Kaladin the first time where crazy-like because he was on “denial”. So much of the pain that he had inflicted (on others and on himself) depended on Kaladin not being a Radiant. In the Darkness-is-Nin case, though, this phase is already behind. He acknowledged that the KR where back, and so he let himself be slayed. He is past any “denial” at this point and in any case it wouldn’t have anything to do with Darkness being or not being Nin. We can trust his words on that.

 

But, yeah, that’s flimsy. He could be mistaken even if he is not lying on purpose.

 

My “theory” (dunno if it’s really mine, maybe someone else already wrote about this, in which case he/she deserves all the gloryspren) on him being a Herald is more attuned to his behavior than anything else.

 

Bear with me while I explain this from the base:

 

There are ten heralds, and ten orders of KR. Members of each order had different behaviors that attracted some spren with whom they form a bond. That is known.

 

Syl also tells Kaladin at some point that Shardblades and the Radiant Knights are a “copy” of what Honor did with the Heralds and the Honorblades, but on a smaller scale.

 

Then, if Radiant Knights where “mini-Heralds”, and their personality traits are that strong, we can extrapolate that the Heralds’ personalities are on the peak of what every order represents… An exaggerated personal trait. Like Darkness exaggerated law respect:

 

He had an important mission, he believes that the knights might bring the Desolation, but he still lets Lift live because killing her would be against the law, and slaps his apprentice for killing the other kid while not having the proper forms for it.

He PRAISES Szeth for following his law even when ignoring it would have been the Right thing to do.

 

There is one point in a conversation between Kaladin and Syl, where he points that Syl wouldn’t want him to break the law, and she answers something like: “What do you think I am, Highspren?” (Don’t have the exact quote, sorry)

 

So… my point is: Darkness is Nin and I base it on Szeth’s words and his extremely Lawful Neutral behavior.

 

 

 

On another point… Don’t you think that if Szeth where to be some time without an Honorblade (from Roshan or anywhere) would attract at some point a Highspren of his own? Become a Radiant Knight.

 

That’s MAYBE why Darkness gives him Nightblood. He needs people that thinks like him to help him, but that kind of people is bound to attract Highspren and become Radiants… and he doesn’t want any Radiants whatsoever… so maybe handing him Nighblood grants him an ally with power, but incapable somehow of being a full radiant?

[Moogle]

Also, this whole post should be in SPOILER brackets, but since the thread is already sooooooo much spoilerish, I won’t tag it. Correct me if I’m wrong by not doing so

 

Welcome to the forums! No spoiler tags are needed in the Words of Radiance subforum, but they are needed elsewhere on the forums (except for the Cosmere Theories subforum).

 

As to the rest of your post, I agree with pretty much everything you said. You're quite right that the Radiants modeled themselves after the Heralds (the epigraphs even say they did). 

 

I don't think I agree with your theory that Nalan wants Szeth to avoid attacting a highspren (hence his giving Szeth Nightblood), but I think you've got a good theory: all the Skybreakers (like Helaran) are given Shardblades so they will not become Surgebinders. Have an upvote for that. I didn't think of that. I don't think having Nightblood will prevent Szeth from becoming a Surgebinder, though. We've heard from the author that you can form multiple spren bonds (theoretically), and the issue with Shardblades is that they're dead spren (screaming constantly), while Nightblood is quite alive.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[dyring]

Regarding the whole "radiants cause the desolations" theories, a few holes in it.

 

1. There was desolations before there was radiants. It was a suprise to honor when the sprens bonded humans.

 

2. Jezrien, when the 9 heralds abandon their honorblades/duties, Jezrien states "they have the Radiants, it will be enough" or something simular(book loaned out, recruiting new fans;))

Why would he say that if the radiants caused the desolations?

 

We´re missing something. A big piece of the puzzle.

[Radiant_thoughts]

I think nalan is using Szeth to go to shinovar and liberate the seven honorblades so that his neo skybreakers can be on at the very least equal footing with new radiants. He would have an advantage in my estimation. A huge advantage unless the KR get an influx of members. Nalan might recruit, to szeths dismay, the stone shamans to his side, because they will be proficient w blades. This is an arc we could see in book 3.

[name_here]

I would remind everyone that Nalan, regardless of his identity, is nuts and his words should not be taken as absolute truth. I prefer Jasnah's theory that Desolations cause Radiants; according to her and Pattern the spren are coming to the physical because the upcoming Desolation threatens them too, so they're bonding with humans to help them fight against Voidbringers.

[Helwar]

Thank you Moogle  

 

Though I have to say that I know almost nothing about the Skybreakers, that's a jigzaw I didn't really complete while reading... no more than acknowledging Shallan's brother as a member of them, and their name.

 

¿And you say their leader is Darkness? I dunno where that info comes from... But I don't doubt it. I'll have to investigate a little more.

 

 

Regarding the whole "radiants cause the desolations" theories, a few holes in it.

 

1. There was desolations before there was radiants. It was a suprise to honor when the sprens bonded humans.

 

2. Jezrien, when the 9 heralds abandon their honorblades/duties, Jezrien states "they have the Radiants, it will be enough" or something simular(book loaned out, recruiting new fans;))

Why would he say that if the radiants caused the desolations?

 

We´re missing something. A big piece of the puzzle.

 

I don't especifically support or deny Darkness theory about the Radiants and the Desolations, but he obviously acts accordingly to his own theory. Flawed or not.

[Radiant_thoughts]

I think Jasnahs theory is clearly the true one. I think the shin and darkness are frantically trying to prove themselves right despite evidence they r wrong. Basically denial.

[Aoibheann]

Darkness/Nalan cares about upholding the law, regardless of right or wrong.  He needs a justification for each death.  This is why he quits chasing when Lift is pardoned.  

 

Syl makes a comment to Kaladin at one point to the effect of, "I'm not a high spren, I don't care about the law, only what is right."

 

In Szeth he sees a blind follower.  This frightens me.  Odium has taught Szeth to hate - talk about lawful-evil!

[Moogle]

¿And you say their leader is Darkness? I dunno where that info comes from... But I don't doubt it. I'll have to investigate a little more.

 

Darkness implies heavily that he's their leader here:

 

“You, Szeth,” the man said, “worship order, do you not? You follow the laws of your society to perfection. This attracted me, though I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to . . . judge.”

Judgment.

“Nin,” he whispered. “The one they call Nalan, or Nale, here. Herald of Justice.”

Nin nodded.

...

Nin cocked his head. “You? Not worthy? I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo, I watched you keep your word with perfection. This is a thing lost to most people— it is the only genuine beauty in the world. I doubt I have ever found a man more worthy of the Skybreakers than you.”

The Skybreakers? But that was an order of the Knights Radiant.

 

And we know from the epigraphs that they were indeed a Radiant Order. We also know that...

 

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20

 

So people have theorized that the Skybreakers didn't take part in the Recreance and instead stuck around and went into hiding. Darkness/Nalan, as a Herald, was the head of his Radiant Order, the Skybreakers.  There's a fair bit of support for and against all this. Helaran was a Skybreaker (or at least, he "searched them out" according to Mraize), and he wasn't a Surgebinder, so there's a bit of funny business going on.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Radiant_thoughts]

In Szeth he sees a weapon like everyone else has so far. They may not b surgebinders now, but if they can get the honourblades in shinovar, to go along w darkness's honorblade? And nightblood, they have an arsenal that eclipses our current KR. It sets up new heralds vs new KR.

[WitSpren]

OK, at the point that Nin recruted Szeth, it is obvious that it is too late to stop the Desolation.     So What the Fark is the matter with him?     All the KRs are needed to fight Odium.     Is he more Batshat Crazy that Szeth?

 

And who was that with him the Jasna's 6 year old POV?    It sounded like another Herald.    Which one is he?

[Terra of Roshar]

And who was that with him the Jasna's 6 year old POV?    It sounded like another Herald.    Which one is he?

 

Consensus seems to be that he's probably Kalak.