The origin of Shardplate.

[MagnusMuses]

I posted this idea on tor.com on sunday but I prefer a focused forum discussion to the sprawling comment sections over there so I wanted to post this idea here and hopefully get some reaction.

 

I think Shardplate and Shardblades are in some way fundamentally different. I have seen that many people who speculate on the nature of Shardplate suggest or even assume that Syl is directly responsible for the shardplate. I don't think so. the plate and blades left behind by the Radiants behave completely differently in several fundamental ways. Also Kaladin doesn't hear screaming from touching plate. Some have suggested that the plate might be formed from a second spren bond but I dislike this suggestion, bringing a third person into a close personal relationship between two people is hard (and would be harder to write believably, not that Brandon wouldn't be able to do it). It also doesn't address the lack of screaming. My hypothesis is that the answer lies in the connection of the bond forming spren to a different kind of spren, f.ex. honorspren - windspren. It is a connection that has constantly been reinforced with Syl and I think it was mentioned in general for bond forming spren (I don't remember where and might be completely wrong on this). It seems like too much for just a casual connection, windrunner - windspren (wind being caused by pressure differences in the atmosphere). When Kaladin performs the greatest displays of his power (flying) he is surrounded by huge numbers of windspren (greater than any we have seen or heard of before). I think that is where the plate comes from. It would explain the lack of screaming, the screaming being caused by the betrayal which the windspren are incapable of comprehending thus making the plate merely distasteful.
Also, 
cryptics - creationspren? We see Shallan being surrounded by creationspren in similarly huge numbers when she draws Pattern in her cabin on the ship (Chapter 3). It is obvious that to use lightweaving to anything approaching it's full potential requires a great deal of creativity. The link is far more tenuous than with pressure and wind but unless we see lightspren the It's as good a connection as I can think of. We have seen no indication of any other possible connections with cryptics (that I can remember at least) and I don't see why honorspren should be special in this regard.

 

I hope I am not reposting. If I am, sorry.

[+rhaiynebow]

Yep...I'd love to know where Shardplate originates from too. I suppose we'll find out eventually As for your thoughts. I kind of agree. I'll admit I'm being somewhat wishy washy here because to be honest, I see lots of possibilities out there around Shardplate!

 

I also think that the plate is somehow spren related. And I do like the thought of windspren somehow working with/bonding with Syl to create the plate (if I understood your post correctly). I agree with you and also don't think Syl is the plate. I think it's definitely something different. Either a different spren, or possibly a link to the Parshendi somehow since they seem to "grow" their plate and Shardplate, when shattered needs to "regrow".

 

I posted my first official "theory" earlier today about multiple spren bonding, and essentially Shardplate is one of the reasons that I think we'll see our KR bond in some way to another source other than their current spren.

 

Something that I find interesting is that in some passages (which I'll try to add in later as I'm not by the book atm) is that it mentions that the plate glows around where the "joints" would be. I got the impression that the some of the shardplates may contain two different colors...an overall glow and a separate color at the joints.

[Seloun]

That's an interesting theory. At least, the connection between the spren types is intriguing, though the connection to shardplate I think is pretty tenuous; the best argument for it seems to be that we don't have any other really good theories about Shardplate.

 

But regarding the different spren connections - Syl is obviously closely related to windspren, and one of the WoR epigraphs mention that Lightweavers are almost always artistic types - the sort that would draw creationspren:

 

 

"These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished."

 

This is clearly a reference to Shallan's Memories, but may go beyond that.

 

We do see that at least part of Kaladin's fighting skill (speculated to be his 'gift', like Shallan's Memories) appears to be due to being able to 'read the wind':

 

 

Wind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack—didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.

 

Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps . He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt— impossibly— that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.

 

The Shardbearers cursed, trying again and again. Kaladin heard the judge say something, but was too absorbed in the fight to pay attention. The crowd was growing louder. He leaped one attack, then stepped just to the side of another.

 

You could not kill the wind. You could not stop it. It was beyond the touch of men. It was infinite. . . .

 

Perhaps their non-surgebinding 'gifts' are somehow related to the lesser cousin spren (the base spren?).

 

 

 

 

I posted my first official "theory" earlier today about multiple spren bonding, and essentially Shardplate is one of the reasons that I think we'll see our KR bond in some way to another source other than their current spren.

 

I believe this was jossed by WoB recently (can't bond more than one spren) though there may still be some other relationship with a different spren.

[+rhaiynebow]

 

I believe this was jossed by WoB recently (can't bond more than one spren) though there may still be some other relationship with a different spren.

 

Oh wow...I'll have to go back through there and re-read the thread. I could have sworn I read in there that you COULD bond more than one spren. Thanks!

[Seloun]

Oh wow...I'll have to go back through there and re-read the thread. I could have sworn I read in there that you COULD bond more than one spren. Thanks!

 

Actually, I think I'm remembering this wrong. I was trying to see if I could find the reference, but I cannot; the closest is actually a statement saying that it's possible to bond more than one Shardblade, and that the bond to Shardblade was related to a spren bond (which would make the opposite of what I thought was said more likely).

[Samurai]

I think you may be on to something because I remember in chapter 19 Starfalls when the KR arive there is a scene when the woman heals Dalinar and Taffa she doesn't have a helmet and when Dalinar goes to help her is wearing one and Dalinar wonders when she had a chance to put in on, then after the fight Dalinar see the male KR and his helmet has disappeared.  So perhaps what happened was the Spern making up the helmet coalesced and dispersed in to the air.

[Veil]

Personally, I'm not convinced about the Plate being made up of spren of any kind. If that was true, those spren would have to be dead in the modern day (the Plate no longer glows like it does in Dalinar's visions; doesn't have the same glyphs; and most importantly, it now interferes with Lashings.)

 

 

The blue knight's armor began to glow faintly, then he launched into the air, as if falling straight up.

 

The Way of Kings, p. 305

 

Contrast with:

 

 

Szeth didn't own a set of Plate himself, and didn't care to. His Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate, and he had to choose one or the other.

 

The Way of Kings, p. 29

 

To me, it seems like old Plate is powered by stormlight. Not formed by the bonded spren like a Shardblade is, but somehow connected to Surgebinding. A fabrial, maybe, but one that doesn't need stones since its bearer can store stormlight him/herself. Navani mentions that Shardblades didn't used to have stones in the hilts (WoR chapter 67) but were added later. The same thing could have happened to the Plate--Radiants could use it because of their spren and/or Surges, but after the Recreance it just became fancy armor until someone figured out how to rework the fabrial so non-Surgebinders could use it. (This would also explain why the old Windrunners could use Plate and Lashings together, but Szeth can't.)

 

Besides, if the Plate is made up of spren, the only thing that could have changed is that they died--and whether or not they realize it, I think Syl would know and be upset about it at least as much as Blades upset her.

 

 

The Plate glowed with an even blue light, and glyphs--some familiar, others not--were etched into the metal. They trailed blue vapor.

 

The Way of Kings, page 303

 

I'm wondering if the Radiants somehow figured out a way to focus stormlight through glyphs to make armor respond to the Radiant's will. It could explain where glyphwards came from and why people burn them (since ordinary people can't just spontaneously make things glow...)

 

But I do like the idea of bonding spren associating with non-bonding spren. Syl and windspren, Pattern and creationspren... Wyndle and lifespren, maybe? We don't see it in Lift's interlude, but Nalan drags her away from the only major bit of Surgebinding she does (healing Gawx), and it would fit, with Wyndle taking the form of a crystalline vines and Edgedancers having the Surge of Growth/Regrowth.

[Carlos Stormblessed]

I am one of those in the boat of "shardplate comes from or is spren." My reasoning is mostly based on shardplates interaction with shardblades. When a shardblade cuts a substance that is not alive it cuts through it like a knife through Styrofoam or similar substance. However, if you hit shardplate with a shardblade it is as if it is a regular blade.

My theory is not that shardplate is literally a spren, but is a byproduct of some kind from spren. Maybe a spren created it for its master, but does not actually become the armor for its master. When the spren was alive and bonded it could fix the armor, however, now that the spren is dead or the bond is broken they use fabrials and stormlight to fix the plate. 

 

Again if shardplate was not the same substance as shardblades I think they would interact differently.

Thoughts? Any holes in the theory?

[Cayden]

Myself I think it is some sort of ultra Fabrial. something the Knight could wear, fairly innocent looking and not too bulky. But when infused with Stormlight it grows and shapes itself into a suite of Shardplate imbued with stormlight (Hence the glyphs and colour) 

 

It could then act as not only a battery of sorts, because any stormlight they breath out would be caught by the plate and then absorbed by the armour itself. But as protection and a way to super-enhance their muscles and endurance.

 

It would explain they way shardplate's damaged sections could be regrown, as well as how the Knight in Dalinar's vision could remove it at will, if it is a conscious decision to do so.

 

This doesnt fully explain why it was left in full plate form during the Recreance though, so there are some massive holes in this idea.

 

I suppose the other possibility if it is a spren based ability:

 

Plate might be the body of the spren, the physical manafestation, while the blade is the mind of the spren which would explain why plate would not scream. And why the blade can be summoned but the plate cannot.

 

Along these lines it makes you wonder if the Recreance wasnt just about breaking Oaths but about severing a sprens mental and physical self.

[taveren]

who knows maybe its is just solidified stormlight in the shape of armor would also explain why it gives added strength and the halfshards don't since they are just strengthened metal

Edited March 14, 2014 by taveren

[Bramble Thorn]

17th Sharders, I have cracked the secret of Shardplate, Wait for it.....

 

SPRENSQUIRES!

 

Yup. We know Kaladin is so awesome Bridge for can regrow limbs and inhale stormlight just because they are buddies with him. But they have no Nahel bond to break.

 

We know Kaladin is not the only one in the bond; Syl is also.

 

We know all modern fabrials have a (non sentient) spren in the focal gemstone.

 

We know Syl is closely related to windspren.

 

We know about that weird fabrial metal in the oathgate.

 

Take that oathgate fabrial stuff. Stuff it with windspren Syl has made friends with. Now it can absorb stormlight.

 

But they have no bond that can be broken to kill them; they are just squires. So when the Recreance happens and their honor spren "dies" they are still in the fabrial armor, but this does not seem to hurt them, they are just no longer sprensquires, and the armor is no longer all glowey. No stuck screaming at the moment of death forever, so no Hate from the Bond spren.

 

Problem solved. I am awesome. Reputation please?

 

EDIT: As more proof of how awesome and right I am, Syl thinks how terribly unfair it is that spren cannot attract spren. This is obviously her memory returning to her, and also foreshadowing.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Bramble Thorn

[The Count]

My theory on this is a little out there but here goes:

 

I think plate is like a second skim that develops at the highest level of the bond.

 

We see Kaladin getting better at holding stormlight and his healing capacity seems much stronger that Szeths.

 

In the fight with Gavilar, Szeths face takes a good few minutes to heal (he still can't speak properly when Gavilar is dead).

 

However, in the arena duel, Kaladin heals two broken legs and two broken feet in a matter of seconds.

 

My theory is that the strengthening and healing effects of stormilight get stronger and stronger as the bond / oaths progress until eventually a critical mass is reached and the stormlight crystallises into shardplate.

 

From that moment on, the sharplade appears whenever the Radiant holds any stormlight and glows when they use the surges.

 

As I said, a bit out there. But it would explain how plate can be a consequence of the bond without involving any spren.

[Dalinaut]

This is a great question.  I'm going to a signing next week and would like to ask a question regarding this.  Anyone have a suggestion on how to word it as not to get RAFO'd?  I was thinking maybe:

 

"Is shardplate related to spren?"

[+rhaiynebow]

I'm not sure how to word it so you don't get RAFO'd to be honest. I'd go with what you have and just see what he says

 

Another point to make in favor of the plate being somehow related to spren is the fact that it can change shape to fit anyone who wears it almost instantaneously. We see this several places, but most notably in WoR duel scene when Kal uses a helm on his hand/fist and it forms to it. I'm not sure if a fabrial can do that or not...

[Pengwin_Lord]

What I wondered was if perhaps Shardplate is of Cultivation?

 

Shardblades seem to me to be of Honour as they require a bond (the nahel bond), while Shardplate has to regrow etc to repair.

[Observer]

Shardplate is undoubtedly a totally different animal. Shardplate cracks and breaks if you hit it enough times. Shardblades are expressly mentioned as being completely indestructible. I'll take Pengwin_Lord's theory most likely.

[Malevericas]

intriguing

[Elthan]

I think Veil's answer is more likely than them being connected to spren. I believe they might have been created, by one of the Orders perhaps, to fight the Voidbringers like Adolin mentions after being hit by the red lightning.

 

 

When it faded, he found himself completely unharmed. He looked down at the armor, which was vibrating softly - a hum that rattled his skin in a strangely comforting way. Nearby, another crack of lightning left a small group of Parshendi, but didn't blind him. His helm - which as always was partially translucent from the inside - darkened in a jagged streak, perfectly overlaying the lightning.

 Adolin grinned with clenched teeth, feeling a savage satisfaction as he pushed into the Parshendi and swung his Shardblade through their necks. By the old stories, the suit he wore had been created to fight these very monsters.

 

Even if this isn't true and this is just some way the armor adapted (he did get blinded a few times before this) I think that there's definitely something about how the armor is powered by Stormlight and might not have used gemstones before. Just think about how Kaladin used the helm when he fought in the Arena. It repaired by using his Stormlight.

 

This theory does not lend itself very well with how they could summon and unsummon it at will, but I still think that that could be possible if you think about the Oathgates. It's a fabrial (correct me if I'm wrong here) of some sort that uses Transportation, maybe the Plates are something similar to that.

[Splotte]

My tired brain has a couple of ideas. Whether or not they seem stupid in the morning is another matter.

1. Plate segments are individual, unbonded "cousin" spren that are attracted by the Radiant's spren/abilities/personality, that are somehow turned into the pieces. Regrowing is just letting the spren congregate to their friends associated with intact pieces, to fill in what's missing.

-or-

2. Cultivation + [something]. (though what entertains this idea most is that I don't know anything about that Shard, and I like the mystery XD )

Also, what's saying regular Plate won't glow when a full-fledged Radiant wears it? The only times it could have glowed was when Kaladin had the helmet on his hand, but that wasn't a full set, and he wasn't worried about the glow since the sun was bright, anyway. Maybe a full set would show the excess breathed Stormlight like in Dalinar's visions?

Edited March 15, 2014 by Splotte

[Galladon]

please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Kal form a shield in his last fight in addition to his Syl-powered weapon? This would suggest to me, that such armor would be equally summoned (as simply an extention of the bond), like growing stormlight carapace (don't know how to write that word). It would certainly speak agains it beeing a fabrial.

 

I wonder ful Kal hear screaming if he touched a fabrial - it beeing a spren-enslaving device? On that not did Shallan reach the final 'level' and if so did she use a fabrial after finding and speaking truth?- just as a side note.

[Takeshi]

I think both theories are correct.  The Radiants from Starfalls (true Radiants) can form their own plate from Spren or some other magical means, and the Shardplate used today are actually fabrials or something that were modeled after the Radiant plate. 

[+rhaiynebow]

I'm doing my reread of TWoK right now, and found these passages very interesting. If I'm reading this correctly, then Dalinar may very well have subconsciously figured out the secret to shardplate This was during the Chasmfiend hunt scene:

 

Adolin's breath caught in his chest. Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow.

 

And again when Adolin thought back on the memory of that moment:

 

This wasn't the first time Adolin had seen such extraordinary actions from his father, but they had seemed particularly dramatic. Standing beneath the massive chasmfiend, holding it back from killing his nephew, Plate glowing. That image was fixed in Adolin's memory.

 

So either his plate really was glowing, or he had some seriously stormlight infusion going on or....both? And if not spren related, then how was it glowing similar to the KR of old (minus the glowing glyphs of course)?

[dyring]

Its possible a radiant can form the plate from stormlight, shape it. Maybe while out in a highstorm to have unlimited(or close enough) stormlight?

Then once formed, its possible to be removed as the current plates were.

 

That might come from one of the later oaths.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I'm in the camp of Shardplate created by the bonds/stormlight still, though re-reading that section on the Oathgate is making me think...

 

The fabrial of which the Oathgates are made is the same material as both Shardplate and Shardblades. And just like both it was able to change its form around Renarin and other's shardblades...

[lDanielHolm]

To me, it seems like old Plate is powered by stormlight. Not formed by the bonded spren like a Shardblade is, but somehow connected to Surgebinding. A fabrial, maybe, but one that doesn't need stones since its bearer can store stormlight him/herself. Navani mentions that Shardblades didn't used to have stones in the hilts (WoR chapter 67) but were added later. The same thing could have happened to the Plate--Radiants could use it because of their spren and/or Surges, but after the Recreance it just became fancy armor until someone figured out how to rework the fabrial so non-Surgebinders could use it. (This would also explain why the old Windrunners could use Plate and Lashings together, but Szeth can't.)

 

Szeth had an Honorblade, and as such, required vastly greater quantities of Stormlight to power his Lashings as compared to Kaladin. I am of the opinion that what Szeth refers to is simply that, as Shardplate requires Stormlight to function, wearing Plate would drain his Stormlight, and he would lack the strength required to make Lashings. Thus, they "interfere" with his Lashings.

 

A full Radiant probably wouldn't have that problem. Kaladin can hold Stormlight for ages.

 

I believe the 'cousin spren' theory as well. It makes sense -- vastly more sense than Kaladin binding another sentient spren just for Plate, for instance.