wolverinehokie Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Are there any theories as to why Elhokar stopped seeing the symbol headed people when Kaladin started protecting him? In WoK, I assumed he was seeing the same guys Shallan was seeing, meaning he has some KR powers. As far as I can tell, his powers still haven't manifested. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I assume it is because of Syl. Ehlokar's symbol heads are likely the same breed of spren as pattern, cryptics. And we know that cryptics and honorspren don't get along, even when they can't remember why, or at least Syl doesn't remember why. So when an honorspren started hanging out where Ehlokar lives, the cryptics left. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Ideas: 1. People who are very self-aware and understand themselves become Lightweavers. If Elhokar wanted to become a Lightweaver, he needed to face some serious truths about himself... which he didn't. He might have started with his half-hearted attempt at a crappy maybe-but-really-not-an-apology for almost ordering Kaladin killed after Kaladin was freaking amazing, I grant, but that was a really crappy way to be introspective (and he did it while drunk). Kaladin's influence caused him to want to redeem himself and change. Or perhaps he always wanted that. Elhokar then started lying to himself, and convinced himself he wanted to be a great king. Elhokar was no longer suitable for the Lightweavers, and he pushed away the Cryptics. 2. Cryptics don't like honorspren, so perhaps it was a literal scaring away. 3. Perhaps Elhokar misinterpreted Kaladin's arrival. Shallan also arrived at the same time. She may have ended up attracting the Cryptics that originally went for Elhokar. Spren are attracted to the most potent source of emotions/forces in an area, after all. 4. Elhokar was seeing voidspren, not Cryptics. Kal's arrival scared them away. Elhokar's paranoia lessened slightly as he found someone to trust (Kaladin), and they stopped becoming attracted to him or something. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm pretty sure it really is Kaladin-related. According to Cheese Ninja's timeline, it's almost 30 days between when Kaladin starts guarding Elhokar and when Shallan arrives; that feels way too long for Shallan's arrival to be a factor. That means the 4-shardbearer scene is well past that point, too, so it's unlikely it's due to Elhokar being inspired by that. I suppose it might have been after Szeth's first attack, but IIRC Elhokar doesn't really see Kaladin do anything before being carted away. Some kind of voidspren or Cryptics both could probably fit. Syl mentions seeing evil spren (not Cryptics) around fairly early in the book (ch 9, 15) but those seem to pretty clearly be references to stormspren. I don't think she sees any other strange spren, except Pattern in the arena. Pattern does appear to 'flee' from Syl (granted, that's her interpretation), so that seems like the most likely explanation. Elhokar may have self-denial issues like Shallan; the Roshone affair might be a good fit, given how Dalinar seems to think it's semi-secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Releaser Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) In WoK, I assumed he was seeing the same guys Shallan was seeing, meaning he has some KR powers. As far as I can tell, his powers still haven't manifested. Remember that Pattern said that only one Cryptic was sent. So I don't think that he is a Lightweaver. But something fishy is going on. Edited March 13, 2014 by Releaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Remember that Pattern said that only one Cryptic was sent. So I don't think that he is a Lightweaver. But something fishy is going on. That's a good point. Something I've been wondering...Ym appears to have been a Truthwatcher given that he has access to Regrowth, but does not appear to be an Edgedancer. If that's the case, aren't Truthwatchers the only example of multiple surgebinders with the same spren? Though Elhokar's descriptions don't seem consistent at all with Ym's descriptions. Assuming the spren aren't lying, there's only one honorspren, only one edgedancer-spren (?), only one Cryptic, and probably only one Elsecaller spren (based on what Jasnah says). It seems fishy that there's more than one Truthwatcher-spren (we haven't actually seen Renarin's spren, however)... also makes me wonder what the heck Nalan has been doing for however long it's been since the Recreance, since there doesn't appear to have been any Surgebinders in all that time until very recently (unless...there were?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricree Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 We don't know the timing of the interlude. Renarin might be attempt number two. I find it interesting that Ym's spren is just "the spren" in his interlude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sppipe Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I believe that Ym was an Edgedancer, remember, their second ideal is "I will Remember those who have been forgotten." In the interlude, we see him helping street urchins, wanting to know their stories, maybe because he felt the need to at least in some way remember them? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I gather that the symbolhead form of the Cryptics is what they look like while hanging out in Shadesmar, so Elhokar being able to see them doesn't necessarily imply there are more of them in the physical realm. They're probably avoiding Syl. I'm pretty sure it's because of the rivalry between honorspren and their love of pure truth and Cryptics and their love of lies that start from truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FollowYourMuse Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I had started thinking about this, I think that the Cryptics were hanging around Ehlokar, (spying? watching? meddling?) the same way they were hanging around Taravangian, (Possibly other rulers or important people?) and stopped so they would not be discovered by Syl and the honor spren. Pattern has been with Shallan since she was a kid. I have considered that the Cryptics that were watching Taravangian started watching her / chasing her because of who she was and Pattern, but that they were there to begin with and stayed, not with any intention of bonding with him. This shows cryptics around with T's "special" healers, Shallan was no where near this scene. Im dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.”—Collected on the 3rd of Jesnan, 1172, 11 seconds pre-death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Perhaps the spren withdrew because Elhokar stopped acting close to any Ideals of the KR and just let Dalinar take the lead. Though why they didn't push him like they did with Jasnah remains a mystery to me. May be they saw he wasn't ready at all. Of course, Kaladin and Syl showed as well. Ivory disliked even being talked about, but Pattern didn't care much about being seen in the beginning. I don't interpret his actions as hiding from Syl though; even in the arena with Renarin he flew away when Renarin was no longer in immediate danger rather than because Syl spook him. Plus we don't know if he saw Syl at all; it wasn't mentioned. I think Elhokar's story arc in the next book with be about facing those shadows and finally getting it right. That being said I suspect he will be of the Willshapers with transportation surge like Jasnah; seems like inhuman shape-like shadowy appearance will be their thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Syl did mention there was a cryptic in the Arena so Pattern most likely felt/saw Syl too. Maybe he just doesn't mention it because he doesn't care that much about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Was it Kaladin or Shallan's spren who said there were a bunch of other spren hanging around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIT Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm of the opinion that Elhokar will become a Willshaper. If that is the case he'd have access to Shadesmar and may have been subconsciously tapping into it. As for why it stopped he may have strayed from their ideals or as he was less paranoid with Kaladin guarding him he may have been less anxious to flee. If he is a Willshaper with the Transportation surge he may have been using that to "escape" and just caused himself more terror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I think they were Cryptics based on their appearance. I assume that the Cryptics had not crossed over wanted him to see them. I think they knew the effect they were having on him. While he doesn't seem to be a terrible human being, he does not seem to be exemplary, particularly in the area of creativity. Therefore, I do not think the Cryptics were interested in bonding him. {Wild Speculation} So why would Cryptics hang around him? To witness his actions? To keep other spren away? Why would they show themselves to him? To increase his paranoia, so that he does not act confidently? Because if he acted confidently, he would screw up bigtime? Why leave when Kaladin/Syl show up? Don't want Syl to see them? They think with Kaladin there, he is not as likely to screw up? {/Wild Speculation} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinintendo Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Didn't Jasnah saw the same figures in the Prologue? I think he can turn out elsecaller like his sister, rather than Lightweaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossyfisk Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'd guess him as being an Elsecaller rather than a Willshaper. Just because he doesn't really strike me as being a 'resolute builder', but 'wise' and 'careful' could fit with his paranoia. Plus his talk of whispering shadows seems to match the descriptions in Jasnah's opening scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 * they do look like cryptics, and we've seen other cryptics around * elhokar did start telling himself the truth that he's a bad king * if the spren will return in numbers, then they should watch potential candidates * maybe the cryptics were just "harvesting" something from elhokar, like whatever wyndle was harvesting from people for his gardens. this would not explain though why elhokar would see them * maybe there is something fishy all good points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinintendo Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 On that note, do you think Elhokar will grow up, toughen his act and be worthy to be KR instead of the emo scum he is atm? Maybe if he stay in Lopen's family he can get over his problems, or take a note from Renarin and be a low class soldier without special treatment in bridge 4 squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 On that note, do you think Elhokar will grow up, toughen his act and be worthy to be KR instead of the emo scum he is atm? Maybe if he stay in Lopen's family he can get over his problems, or take a note from Renarin and be a low class soldier without special treatment in bridge 4 squad. I think Elhokar will get better advisers and he will start learning from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandalhearts Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think they were Cryptics based on their appearance. I assume that the Cryptics had not crossed over wanted him to see them. I think they knew the effect they were having on him. While he doesn't seem to be a terrible human being, he does not seem to be exemplary, particularly in the area of creativity. Therefore, I do not think the Cryptics were interested in bonding him. {Wild Speculation} So why would Cryptics hang around him? To witness his actions? To keep other spren away? Why would they show themselves to him? To increase his paranoia, so that he does not act confidently? Because if he acted confidently, he would screw up bigtime? Why leave when Kaladin/Syl show up? Don't want Syl to see them? They think with Kaladin there, he is not as likely to screw up? {/Wild Speculation} Remember that Wyndle says that some spren have problems making themselves visible and others have the opposite problem. Pattern isn't able to make himself fully invisible so it is possible that Elhokar's cryptics (if they are cryptics) might have revealed themselves to him inadvertently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalion Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 By the way, another sign Ym was (maybe is) an Edgedancer is the chapter heading was double Vedeledev. Hard to be sure of the time course with the Lift interlude, but that would be 2 edgedancer spren at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) By the way, another sign Ym was (maybe is) an Edgedancer is the chapter heading was double Vedeledev. Hard to be sure of the time course with the Lift interlude, but that would be 2 edgedancer spren at once. Ym's spren is literally growing light. The other spren follow their Surges - Syl is flying air (pressure + gravity), Wyndle 'grows' around and has abrasions (rough gems) on him. Jasnah's spren teleports around, Shallan's spren transforms into things and is made of light. I don't think there's any chance of Ym being Order 4, given how Wyndle appears. Definitely Order 5 to me. Edited March 14, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Remember that Wyndle says that some spren have problems making themselves visible and others have the opposite problem. Pattern isn't able to make himself fully invisible so it is possible that Elhokar's cryptics (if they are cryptics) might have revealed themselves to him inadvertently. I think the Cryptics have no problem being invisible when they are in the cognitive realm. Maybe Wyndle is referring to spren that have crossed over. Consider that they were hanging around Shallan in Kharbranth and she could only draw them, not even see them in mirrors. If Elhokar sees them in mirrors and no-one else does, then either they want just him to see them or he has a special ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abh Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just a theory here... I think Jasnah was using cryptics somehow to keep an eye on her brother wile she was away. They disappeared because Jasnah had her incident on the boat and probably wasn't in control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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