The reason the Returned need breath to live

[Mad_Scientist]

This topic isn't very cosmere specific, but as it is the first part in a planned series of threads I intend to make as part of an insane attempt to explain nearly every mystery in the cosmere, I am putting it here.

Why do the Returned need breaths to live? The short answer is: because they are dead, and their bodies are now incapable of using physical energy.

Every being needs energy to survive and function. If I raise my hand, walk to another room, or run a marathon, I use energy up. I get the energy I need to continue on from eating food, of course.

The people in the cosmere are no different, in most cases. But there are at least two classes of energy available to them. There is physical energy, the normal energy one gets from eating, etc, and there is also spiritual energy, the more unusual energy that comes from Shards, Splinters, the Dor, Breaths, and who knows what else. Generally speaking, spiritual energy is used to power the magic systems of various worlds. It can also be used in place of physical energy to supplement and/or boost the normal energy ones body needs. An example of this is Stormlight, when a person infuses it into their body.

But spiritual energy can also sometimes not just supplement, but completely replace physical energy for sustaining a body. Case in point, the Lifeless. A lifeless does not eat. It is incapable of getting its normal source of energy from the physical realm. As a result, the only reason a lifeless can still function is because of the spiritual energy provided by a breath. It replaces the physical energy and provides for it.

But you may be wondering now, "Why do the Returned need to be constantly supplied with new breaths, when a single breath can sustain a lifeless forever?" Well, first of all, a single breath cannot sustain a lifeless forever.

It's easy to miss, but in Warbreaker there's a chapter (when Jewels repairs Clod) where we learn that the lifeless can, oddly enough, heal from their wounds, at least somewhat. But if they sustain enough wounds, they will cease to function properly, and will require a new breath to continue working.

The way I figure it, spiritual energy is very efficient. A single breath is certainly the equal of who knows how many meals, and can sustain a lifeless for a very long time normally. But eventually, it will run out, sooner rather than later if the lifeless is damaged a lot or otherwise excerts itself too much, as healing takes up a lot of physical energy. Even a lifeless that never suffers injuries will eventually need a new breath, but it won't need one for a long, long time, and given the nature of what the lifeless are used for, none will ever go that long without suffering some minor injuries and wear and tear that will hasten the process.

The Returned are like the lifeless in some ways. They can eat, but they don't need to, and get nothing from it. So it seems their bodies, despite seeming quite alive, are still incapable of getting energy from the physical realm, and are forced to rely on the spiritual.

But why do they go through breath so quickly when compared to the lifeless? Well, first, consider the Royal Locks. We know that when Siri uses them to grow her hair and make big changes, it causes her to become very hungry. In other words, she uses up a lot of energy. And the Royal Locks are directly linked to the ability of a Returned to change their shape, are in fact descended from it. If simply changing ones hair uses up a bunch of energy, how much does it take to change ones entire body?

But, the Returned aren't constantly changing themselves, right? Most of them don't even know how, and just remain the same. But the fact that they remain the same is actually an indication that they are changing themselves. Their ability is just on all the time, and they don't realize it.

Consider that the lifeless have to be exercised, which implies that despite being sustained by breath, their muscles will still atrophy unless worked out. The breath provides the lifeless a replacement for food, but their bodies still needs other things to work and maintain good function. But a Returned will never need to exercise, his muscles will never atrophy. Or, to be more precise, as a Returned's muscles start to atrophy slightly, he unconsciously uses his ability and returns the muscles to good shape.

A Returned is almost like a car with the motor running and the engine idling. Burning gas, but not really doing much of anything other than powering the dash lights. Even guys like Vasher have probably not come close to unlocking the true potential of a Returned. Afterall, if a Returned can reshape his whole body based on how he views himself, could he perhaps recover from injuries by viewing himself as someone uninjured? Why do so many Returned drink alchohol if they can't get drunk or even buzzed, unless they are unconsciously influencing their bodies to mimic the effects of drink slightly?

A Returned is constantly using his power, just not efficiently, and thus, he is constantly burning spiritual power. And thus, a Returned needs to regularly replenish it: with breath.

[Chaos]

This is great. I love this logic.

I would add that the divine Breath of the Returned not only are powering the Returned's Physical aspect, but unlike Lifeless (for the most part), that Breath is also is charging their Cognitive power, too. That's probably a large reason why Returned need new Breath, and on such regular intervals. Regardless of what a person is physically doing, their mind is always active, compared to a Lifeless.

Is the next post explaining why Nightblood needs Breath?

[Zas678]

I've got something about Lifeless you might find interesting:

Chapter 33 Annotations

Vivenna and the Mercenaries Wait in the Safe House after the Lifeless Attack on the Slumlords

Why does Jewels bother sewing up Clod? Why fix Lifeless at all? Denth's answer is a fairly good one, but it could use some more explanation.

You see, when one makes a Lifeless, the reason the Breath stays and won't come back is because the body of a recently deceased person is too "sticky" for Breaths. One Breath attaches to it, and because the body so clearly remembers being alive, it can use that Breath to power it. (Assuming you have the right Commands and can picture them correctly in your head when you make the Lifeless.)

However, the more the Lifeless is damaged, the less like the shape of a living person it is, and the more difficult it is for the Breath to keep that body going. Powering a body with only one Breath is hard—it requires the body to work mostly on its own. When you power a cloak or something like that, the Breaths need to provide a lot of energy, since there's no real muscles to use or skeletal structure to rely on.

So the more wounded a Lifeless becomes, the less well its Breath can keep it going. Eventually you'll need to stick a second Breath into it, then a third, all the way up until that Lifeless is nothing more than a bunch of bones you've Awakened. At that point, you might as well be using sticks or cloth.

[Mad_Scientist]

@zas678

I had forgotten about that, it's been a while since I read the annotations. I think it still fits in with my idea.

This is great. I love this logic.

I would add that the divine Breath of the Returned not only are powering the Returned's Physical aspect, but unlike Lifeless (for the most part), that Breath is also is charging their Cognitive power, too. That's probably a large reason why Returned need new Breath, and on such regular intervals. Regardless of what a person is physically doing, their mind is always active, compared to a Lifeless.

Is the next post explaining why Nightblood needs Breath?

Nah, my next post is about Splinters. But I think I know why Nightblood needs breath. It's because his powers go against the Intent of the Shard on Nalthas.

We know that the Shards have some pretty potent abilities, and can fuel a variety of powers. But it's harder for Preservation to fuel ruinious stuff. I seem to recall a quote that was something like "doing x will use up the power of a Shard in a way they are reluctant to do," but I can't find it now. If Shards go too far against their intent, it causes trouble for them.

Anyways, the point. Nightblood is a magic swords that destroys. He doesn't endow, he doesn't bring life. He just utterly wipes out whatever he touches. His power is nothing like Awakening. And in order to destroy in such a fashion, he needs energy of some sort, spiritual energy. And on Nalthis, the only thing available to him is the breaths, the power of Endowment. But destruction is rather different than endowing. So to use the power of Endowment to destroy (at least directly) is wasteful, inefficient. It corrupts the power, burns through it in the way Shards are reluctant to do.

But why does Nightblood even exist, then? How was he possibly created? Because though destroying is not of Endowment, giving something an ability, including even an ability to destroy, is. The breaths endowed Nightblood with the capacity to destroy.

Had there been another Shard on Nalthis, one with a power more in line with destruction, Nightblood probably would have been able to use its power for destruction, and thus would have worked much better. For example, imagine if Endowment and Ruin were on the same world and someone forged a sword of pure atium and brought it to life with Awakening using the command "ruin everything."

That would be kind of scary, I think.

[Morderkaine]

We know that the Shards have some pretty potent abilities, and can fuel a variety of powers. But it's harder for Preservation to fuel ruinious stuff. I seem to recall a quote that was something like "doing x will use up the power of a Shard in a way they are reluctant to do," but I can't find it now. If Shards go too far against their intent, it causes trouble for them.

From the Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon on TWG.

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

[Zas678]

Anyways, the point. Nightblood is a magic swords that destroys. He doesn't endow, he doesn't bring life. He just utterly wipes out whatever he touches. His power is nothing like Awakening. And in order to destroy in such a fashion, he needs energy of some sort, spiritual energy. And on Nalthis, the only thing available to him is the breaths, the power of Endowment. But destruction is rather different than endowing. So to use the power of Endowment to destroy (at least directly) is wasteful, inefficient. It corrupts the power, burns through it in the way Shards are reluctant to do.

I disagree with this. I think that Sentient Non-Living Objects will always be extremely costly. I think that even if Nightblood's Command was "Give to others", whenever he was actually doing it (I don't know how he would), it would be costly.

Why? Because what the initial investement of Breath did (the 1000 to Awaken him) did is give him Sentinence (or an "active" presence in the Cognitive Realm).

All Breaths used after that are needed to have him affect the Physical world. I think that Breaths don't care why he's doing this. I think that they just are used.

[Chaos]

I disagree with this. I think that Sentient Non-Living Objects will always be extremely costly. I think that even if Nightblood's Command was "Give to others", whenever he was actually doing it (I don't know how he would), it would be costly.

Why? Because what the initial investement of Breath did (the 1000 to Awaken him) did is give him Sentinence (or an "active" presence in the Cognitive Realm).

All Breaths used after that are needed to have him affect the Physical world. I think that Breaths don't care why he's doing this. I think that they just are used.

I like this line of reasoning better.

EDIT: Let me add something to that. Brandon did say Nightblood sort of corrupted the Breath (or something), and I think Mad Scientist has something there. Right idea, wrong reason why. They are corrupted, not because of Nightblood's intent going against Endowment's, but because the absorption of Breath goes against Endowment's intent.

You can't forcibly steal someone's Breath. It simply can't be done. Unless, of course, you have an object which needs Breath to function, and will draw Breath from anything. That's the corruption.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Chaos

[Mad_Scientist]

Hmm. Perhaps Chaos is right as to the reason. Regardless of whether either of our ideas are correct, I still think there's probably some explanation for the way Nightblood interacts with breath's beyond simply the fact that he is an object.

It's true that he's just a sword, and thus, to interact with the environment at all in any major way, he'll need breath, regardless of how he does it. The thing is, the entire magic system of Awakening is based upon the concept of objects doing things they normally couldn't. And the usage of breath in Awakening is nothing like the way Nightblood uses breaths.

Maybe Nightblood would need more breaths because he works in a unique fashion. Maybe he'd consume the breaths (as opposed to simply using them and then letting them go, like in normal Awakening) because of that. But at the speed at which he consumes them? And he doesn't just consume them, he corrupts them as he does so. That corruption makes me suspect that something about Nightblood goes against the nature of the magic on Nalthas. Bt perhaps Chaos is right, and it's because he steals breath.

[Asha'man Logain]

Hmm. Perhaps Chaos is right as to the reason. Regardless of whether either of our ideas are correct, I still think there's probably some explanation for the way Nightblood interacts with breath's beyond simply the fact that he is an object.

It's true that he's just a sword, and thus, to interact with the environment at all in any major way, he'll need breath, regardless of how he does it. The thing is, the entire magic system of Awakening is based upon the concept of objects doing things they normally couldn't. And the usage of breath in Awakening is nothing like the way Nightblood uses breaths.

Maybe Nightblood would need more breaths because he works in a unique fashion. Maybe he'd consume the breaths (as opposed to simply using them and then letting them go, like in normal Awakening) because of that. But at the speed at which he consumes them? And he doesn't just consume them, he corrupts them as he does so. That corruption makes me suspect that something about Nightblood goes against the nature of the magic on Nalthas. Bt perhaps Chaos is right, and it's because he steals breath.

I have to say at first i disliked this theory, then as the post started piling up it became more and more likely to me. I'm not ready to espouse it, i think something is a bit off somewhere, but all in all I lean heavily towards this. Good job!

[CabbageHead]

A Returned is constantly using his power, just not efficiently, and thus, he is constantly burning spiritual power. And thus, a Returned needs to regularly replenish it: with breath.

I like this idea. I had assumed that Vasher hiding his status as a Returned was merely to go unnoticed. Might he possibly also be shutting down most of the functions of a Returned body so as to minimise the breath he requires to consume to live?

[darniil]

I'm still curious about the timing with the consumption of Breaths by Returned. Do you have any theories on that?

That is, does a Returned devour a Breath instantly, powering it for one week, or is it a slow, week-long consumption? If the latter, does their Divine Breath regenerate as a "regular" one is consumed (since initially they'd only have the Divine Breath to power them, regardless of how quickly they'd get a "regular" one), and if the former, how do they retain their "divinity" (because of the same reason)?

[Zas678]

My guess would be that it's all used up in one blast. Every "birthday" of the week, they need to have a new breath, or their old one will get consumed in an attempt to keep the Cognitive and Spiritual connection linked to the Physical body.

[Joe ST]

My guess would be that it's all used up in one blast. Every "breathday" of the week, they need to have a new breath, or their old one will get consumed in an attempt to keep the Cognitive and Spiritual connection linked to the Physical body.

Fixed and yes, I agree with this, else it would depend on the 'value' of the giver and receiver as to how long it would last.

[darniil]

Wouldn't that mean that the Divine Breath is consumed instantly upon their Return?

Or, maybe the Divine Breath works differently for a Returned than a regular Breath. Maybe the Divine Breath will waste away over the course of a week, finally dissipating after one week, causing the Returned to re-die, unless they have a regular Breath to consume. With a regular Breath, it's consumed instantly, giving the Returned another week of animation.

But no, that doesn't make any sense either. If that were the case, then Lightsong wouldn't have been weak when we first see him. He needed a new Breath, but he still had his Divine Breath. If the Divine Breath were consumed slowly, and only when a Returned didn't have anything else to consume, he wouldn't have been fatigued on his feast day.

Something tells me that the Divine Breath doesn't work quite the same way for a Returned as regular Breaths do. We're told that the Divine Breath instantly takes a Returned to the Fifth Heightening, but I also seem to recall that a regular person at the Fifth Heightening would not be like a Returned - they'd have similar Heightening-abilities, yes, but they wouldn't be a Returned.

They need to consume a Breath a week to exist, but somehow the Divine Breath doesn't factor into that "food cycle".

I also wonder if the "fading" of the Divine Breath is retarded or even halted when a Returned "dorms down" (to steal a White Wolf term) like Vasher does.

[Zas678]

Let me try again, but Realmantically this time.

So when people die, they sometimes (or maybe even always) see bits of the future and past. Pieces that they can change. So, Endowment offers to let them return. However, their Physical Realm selves are dead. (obviously). So, Endowment gives them a piece of himself- A Divine Breath, a Splinter of Endowment.

Oh! Idea! What if the people's original Breath is the breath that keeps them alive for the first week? That would provide the energy needed to survive for a week.

So, their own Breath, which is Spiritual Energy, propels them back to life. Now, this energy sustains them through the week. However when the week ends, their "resivoir" of Spiritual Energy that is keeping them alive dwindles, and if it gets too low, the body does what it needs to to survive: it eats the Breath. However, doing this breaks the connection keeping this soul in this dead body. So they die.

Imagine it like eating. Imagine that a breath fills your Spiritual stomach for a week. But when that week draws to an end, you can feel yourself getting hungrier and hungrier. When your body gets hungry enough, it starts to eat the fat that's nearby. Little does your body know that that fat is what's keeping your Cognitive self with your Physical self.

Does that make any sense at all?

EDIT- I wrote month when I meant week.

[lordofsoup]

About Nightblood, I think Chaos is right. It also has to do with the reason that no one can force another person to give up their Breath it has to be done willingly. Nightblood takes it from them, which is against the nature of Endowment.

[darniil]

Oh! Idea! What if the people's original Breath is the breath that keeps them alive for the first week? That would provide the energy needed to survive for a week.

Brilliant!

So, their own Breath, which is Spiritual Energy, propels them back to life. Now, this energy sustains them through the week. However when the week ends, their "resivoir" of Spiritual Energy that is keeping them alive dwindles, and if it gets too low, the body does what it needs to to survive: it eats the Breath. However, doing this breaks the connection keeping this soul in this dead body. So they die.

Imagine it like eating. Imagine that a breath fills your Spiritual stomach for a month. But when that week draws to an end, you can feel yourself getting hungrier and hungrier. When your body gets hungry enough, it starts to eat the fat that's nearby. Little does your body know that that fat is what's keeping your Cognitive self with your Physical self.

Does that make any sense at all?

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I think this makes perfect sense. I had been subconsciously assuming that a person's original Breath was lost when they died, but nothing says that's what happens. I think you've got it spot-on.

About Nightblood, I think Chaos is right. It also has to do with the reason that no one can force another person to give up their Breath it has to be done willingly. Nightblood takes it from them, which is against the nature of Endowment.

Man, now Nightblood really reminds me of Stormbringer. (Though, honestly, the idea of a vampiric sword isn't anything new, so I'm not suggesting Brandon stole the idea from Moorcock.)

[Unworldly]

Amongst all this talk of whether the Returned absorb the weekly Breath instantly or not, I'd like to point out that Lightsong mentions how near the end of the week, things get kind of 'fuzzy,' like he's really tired.

When I read that, it made me think that the Breath is absorbed over time - otherwise, why would they suddenly get hazy only at the end of the week?

Unless we're saying that they absorb the power of the Breath instantly, and then their body slowly burns through that 'fuel tank' of spiritual energy - but I think this is overcomplicating things somewhat.

My main argument against this instant-consumption is: how does their body know not to consume additional Breaths instantly, if they're adding to an internal spiritual 'fuel tank'?

I think it more likely that they hold on to the Breath and slowly consume it, until at the end of the week the Breath is completely absorbed and a new one is required - the hazy feeling Lightsong describes would then be similar to the sick infant's Breath we see at one point - it wavers like a candle flame that's about to run out of wick, unstable and such. I think it stands to reason that the Returned would feel this wavering quite strongly only if the original Breath, which is slowly 'dying,' is intact and still within them. If they were to absorb it instantly, then sure there are other explanations for this fuzzy feeling, but I feel that it would then require the fuel tank scenario I described and that then we're making things more complicated than they need to be.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Unworldly

[ulyssessword]

Oh! Idea! What if the people's original Breath is the breath that keeps them alive for the first week? That would provide the energy needed to survive for a week.

That would have some interesting implications. No Drab could ever become a Returned, and if an Awakener dies without giving up Breath, they could last for years on their stockpile alone. This would not be obvious at all, as anyone who would Return while having extra Breath would be in an area that supports them, and it is very hard to notice anyone not returning. This makes collecting Breath slightly more murky, morally.

[happyman]

That would have some interesting implications. No Drab could ever become a Returned, and if an Awakener dies without giving up Breath, they could last for years on their stockpile alone. This would not be obvious at all, as anyone who would Return while having extra Breath would be in an area that supports them, and it is very hard to notice anyone not returning. This makes collecting Breath slightly more murky, morally.

As if it wasn't already murky enough. I suppose the fact that losing breath does something is a vital part of the fact that it comes from Endowment (e.g. breath must have value if it is to really be freely given), but it does make the magic system that much more problematic.

[Ari]

I honestly think you have it a bit backwards, and the returned really are draining their divine breath when they don't have a stockpile, and they have to consume a regular breath every week to replenish their divine breath before it gets so weak that they die. (again)

It's entirely possible that Endowment augments the Returning person's breath with one of their own Splinters, or even just fuels them entirely with said splinter if drabs can be Returned.

I think we have two new questions to ask Brandon at a signing now- whether drabs can return, and whether the divine breath is being drained over the week, or the normal one that started being consumed last week.

[Wolpertinger]

Something that I've always wondered - Is everyone not from the Warbreaker world a Drab? Is a breath 'something extra' they have due to humans in that world being of Endowment? If a Breath makes you more resistant to disease and be more vibrant and see color and art better, and if you've had it all your life, then the loss of it may seem unnatural, but that doesn't really say anything when you've adjusted to having this slightly more vibrant life for your whole life.

If the breath IS 'something extra', then the act of gathering large quantities of breath is at least somewhat less terrible, but if it ISN'T like that, and giving up Breath is giving up a piece of your soul or something, then the whole thing seems even more sick sick - with gods and the rich not only living a life far more beautiful and wonderful than everyone else, but doing it by constantly consuming the souls of those beneath them.

The fact that Returned need to constantly consume Breath makes the whole concept of giving them a constant diet of it seem such a horrid waste, considering how limited Breath really is - one person will live their entire life in relative misery for a week of some pampered godling's life. And, for those that hit the extremely high heightenings, they seem flat out monstrous - the relatively minor benefits after agelessness all require tens of thousands of Breaths, all for the ability to sparkle, be a better artist, and be better at Commands.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Wolpertinger

[Wispsy]

i think its something extra as well as a part of themselves?

[darniil]

Something that I've always wondered - Is everyone not from the Warbreaker world a Drab? Is a breath 'something extra' they have due to humans in that world being of Endowment? If a Breath makes you more resistant to disease and be more vibrant and see color and art better, and if you've had it all your life, then the loss of it may seem unnatural, but that doesn't really say anything when you've adjusted to having this slightly more vibrant life for your whole life.

If the breath IS 'something extra', then the act of gathering large quantities of breath is at least somewhat less terrible, but if it ISN'T like that, and giving up Breath is giving up a piece of your soul or something, then the whole thing seems even more sick sick - with gods and the rich not only living a life far more beautiful and wonderful than everyone else, but doing it by constantly consuming the souls of those beneath them.

The fact that Returned need to constantly consume Breath makes the whole concept of giving them a constant diet of it seem such a horrid waste, considering how limited Breath really is - one person will live their entire life in relative misery for a week of some pampered godling's life. And, for those that hit the extremely high heightenings, they seem flat out monstrous - the relatively minor benefits after agelessness all require tens of thousands of Breaths, all for the ability to sparkle, be a better artist, and be better at Commands.

It does seem kind of monstrous when you put it that way, but I think that's pretty much the whole point of that particular Shard:

You freely give of yourself in order for someone else to have a better life.

Now, is it open to corruption? ("Here, I'll give you 500 gold pieces if you give me your Breath.") Sure. But that wasn't the initial concept. That's just how some people attempt to game the system. They're not operating by the spirit of the system, just the letter. (damnation munchkins.)

[Zas678]

Something that I've always wondered - Is everyone not from the Warbreaker world a Drab? Is a breath 'something extra' they have due to humans in that world being of Endowment? If a Breath makes you more resistant to disease and be more vibrant and see color and art better, and if you've had it all your life, then the loss of it may seem unnatural, but that doesn't really say anything when you've adjusted to having this slightly more vibrant life for your whole life.

If the breath IS 'something extra', then the act of gathering large quantities of breath is at least somewhat less terrible, but if it ISN'T like that, and giving up Breath is giving up a piece of your soul or something, then the whole thing seems even more sick sick - with gods and the rich not only living a life far more beautiful and wonderful than everyone else, but doing it by constantly consuming the souls of those beneath them.

The fact that Returned need to constantly consume Breath makes the whole concept of giving them a constant diet of it seem such a horrid waste, considering how limited Breath really is - one person will live their entire life in relative misery for a week of some pampered godling's life. And, for those that hit the extremely high heightenings, they seem flat out monstrous - the relatively minor benefits after agelessness all require tens of thousands of Breaths, all for the ability to sparkle, be a better artist, and be better at Commands.

I have always held the idea that every person on every world is born with a Breath- the only thing that's special about Nalthis is that they can give theirs away. Why? The life sense. Most people feel a subtle feeling (including Vin at times) when people are watching them. Drabs have no such feeling.