+Aletus Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (Let it be known that interest in this question does not translate into affection towards Sadeas) (Also I place this topic here, rather than in WotK because it contains specific relation to WoR) We see from a Dalinar PoV - following the Chasmfiend hunt, that Sadeas is a mentionably skilled swordsman. He doesn't draw steel or anything, but inner monologue tells us plenty. We know from Andolin's duel, that shard-bearers can borrow from royal stock if lacking a piece of the set, so why hasn't Sadeas borrowed a blade and bet his plate to gain the blade he so coveted (prior to gaining oathbringer) We know he would likely not duel Andolin - but Sadeas, being a true Alethi, through and through, covets pride, wealth, and power like none-other, and loves the thrill, or Thrill, of competition. If he is as good as Dalinar suggests, I can't reason him out of picking on a lower ranking shardbearer, much like Andolin, and laying down the law. Did the fear of losing his plate worry him so much? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Probably. He might be an excellent swordsman with a steel sword, and is probably passable with a Shardblade due to skill leakage, but a six-foot sword with the weight of a breadloaf is a different beast altogether than a standard sword, especially when his normal weapon - a hammer - is more of the "bash with great justice" kind of weapon. Basically, a duel could lose him his Shardplate, while facing him against an opponent extremely dedicated to holding on to the weapon that they are well aquainted with. In other words, too risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Probably. He might be an excellent swordsman with a steel sword, and is probably passable with a Shardblade due to skill leakage, but a six-foot sword with the weight of a breadloaf is a different beast altogether than a standard sword, especially when his normal weapon - a hammer - is more of the "bash with great justice" kind of weapon. Basically, a duel could lose him his Shardplate, while facing him against an opponent extremely dedicated to holding on to the weapon that they are well aquainted with. In other words, too risky. Sadeas wouldn't challenge a Breadbearer. Not even for a Breadblade. Edited February 18, 2014 by Bloodfalcon 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caidhe Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 There may be different rules for who can be challenged. Perhaps at his rank, he can only really duel another highprince without losing honor. Among them, he may be either below their level of skill or at least not so far above them that he feels confident. Alternatively perhaps he feels that the politics of it (alienating the one he beats) may not have been worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Aletus Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 But he was coward enough to kill Rock's cousin for a pile of goodies. Kinda sleezy. Fit's him perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 But he was coward enough to kill Rock's cousin for a pile of goodies. Kinda sleezy. Fit's him perfectly. How is that cowardly? Sleazy, sure, but cowardly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rooster Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'm not big on all of this bashing on Highprince Torol Sadeas, Highprince of Information of the great Kingdom of Alethkar. This is a man who demands respect not the scorn of off-worlders like you all. Who are you to judge the actions of the one man working for the betterment of all Alethi, I mean it's all about the conquest. Jah Kaved's King has just been murdered and if Highprince Sadeas has his way they will be ruled by Alethkar soon enough! Next, the WORLD! MUAHAHAHA 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 If Dal survives Szeth's attack, then Sadeas may just be next on the list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Aletus Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 How is that cowardly? Sleazy, sure, but cowardly? :3 Cowardly. He takes the easy way out, little to no threat. He apparently would shy away from others more threatening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neru Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Sadeas works in a highly strategical way. He wouldn't duel some other shardbearer if it would mean war between both highprinces. Dalinar is only doing this in WoR cuz he has the Kings support. He is also very proud, so he wouldn't take a generals shardblade like "You won this fighting for me, give it right now". So I',d say that he was too proud to ask for the kings blade, and too cautious to duel another highprince, or the bearer from another highprince, and risk having them against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Dueling doesn't start war between highprinces though. Adolin might at this rate, but standard duels are common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neru Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Dueling doesn't start war between highprinces though. Adolin might at this rate, but standard duels are common. That is not the impression I had. Alethi are quite hot headed, and if someone took one of my precious shardblades I would be pretty pissed with him. Duels are common, but not so much the ones betting Shards. Adolin duels in WoK with another Shardbearer, but does not win any Shards. Or am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlight Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 That is not the impression I had. Alethi are quite hot headed, and if someone took one of my precious shardblades I would be pretty pissed with him. Duels are common, but not so much the ones betting Shards. Adolin duels in WoK with another Shardbearer, but does not win any Shards. Or am I wrong? My question is, why would anyone duel Adolin for shards when he is known as such a good dueler? Especially when he starts winning shards in WoR. Sadeas would be the same. It seems like a huge risk to bet shards on a duel against anyone who is even considered just "good". A loss of a blade that is considered worth Kingdoms is a crazy risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 My question is, why would anyone duel Adolin for shards when he is known as such a good dueler? Especially when he starts winning shards in WoR. Sadeas would be the same. It seems like a huge risk to bet shards on a duel against anyone who is even considered just "good". A loss of a blade that is considered worth Kingdoms is a crazy risk. Most people don't know how good he is. In his PoV we see he's winning and making it look like he was cheating or got lucky instead of having skills. So he will be underestimated for a while. It's the Alethi thing to do - to participate in any competition, so they Shardbearers are unlikely to refuse duels with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 It's actually pretty sleazy, what he's doing - despite the intention behind it, he's basically bullying people into giving him their priceless weapons. He doesn't even really have to worry about losing his own as long as he wins a few matches, as then he will be a few Shardblades ahead. Not that it won't be a bit of a sentimental loss to lose his personal one, but at that point, he'll kind of deserve it, orders or no orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Not that it won't be a bit of a sentimental loss to lose his personal one, but at that point, he'll kind of deserve it, orders or no orders. He's been offering up more than the other person so far, so I almost wonder if to duel Sadeas, he'll be required to put up all of his Shards won as a bet on the duel in exchange for Sadeas' Shards. It would be an amusing turn of events for Sadeas to win the following duel and suddenly become the most powerful man on Roshar with like 20 Shards. Edited February 18, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 That is not the impression I had. Alethi are quite hot headed, and if someone took one of my precious shardblades I would be pretty pissed with him. Duels are common, but not so much the ones betting Shards. Adolin duels in WoK with another Shardbearer, but does not win any Shards. Or am I wrong? In one of the newest WoR chapter releases, Adolin fights a duel for a Shardblade. He behaves in a manner that is considered completely innappropriate and is then rude to just about everyone. Regardless, the referee instructs the duelist from the other house to hand over his Shardblade as Adolin had won. He complies and that is that. Maybe the most questionable duel any of them had seen, and it didn't start a war or even a conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I can't buy Sadeas' duel with Rock's master as being cowardly. It seems to me that Sadeas looks down on anyone not Highprince, and probably anyone not Alethi. Cowardly wouldn't have come into his decision. Condescension and greed in quantities yes, but cowardice? And how do you reconcile this 'cowardice' with his desire for battle, including almost getting smashed to death by a dozen Parshendi - and then thinking it was the most wonderful of days? (that does bring up the definition of cowardice, but that's a more complex discussion) Personally I don't think Sadeas has dueled anyone else for shards because of his condescension for everyone else...he is way to proud to duel - even the son of Alethkar's most powerful High Prince. .................... And I find it an interesting perspective that what Adolin is doing is sleazy. Bullying, I would buy...and in adulthood, sometimes there's a time to be a 'bully', despite the 'bullying is always bad' extreme that well meaning people make of it. This is particularly notable in the military, where obedience is expected - as co-ordination saves lives, and disobedience is punished - as disco-ordinated operations costs lives. Take that further - when you have a need to work as one, and a section is rebellious - disarmament is a legitimate route to take...as other routes will again, cost lives. When you are a King - and you are faced with rebelliousness...disarmament is again a legitimate course. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiskeyJackDaniels Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I can't really answer why Sadeas never dueled anyone to get a blade to go with his plate, but I have been wondering about how good a duelist Sadeas is. In WoK it gets mentioned pretty early on that even though he doesn't have a Blade, Sadeas is an excellent swordsman. And then in one of the released chapters from WoR I remember Dalinar talking about how when they needed a rival Highprince taken out in the days of the unification of Alethkar Gavilar had leant Sadeas his Blade so Sadeas could duel him. I thought that was strange that neither Dalinar or Gavilar would have done the fighting considering how good they were both supposed to be, but I also took away from it that the King completely trusted Sadeas' martial abilities with Blade and Plate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) When you are a King - and you are faced with rebelliousness...disarmament is again a legitimate course. Except that Dalinar is not king. He is Highprince, and he is grasping for power and has basically threatened to kill Elhokar if he doesn't name him Highprince of War. His need to disarm the highprinces for being rebellious are entirely a result of his own decision to try and forcibly unite the highprinces, and I see no reason why the highprinces shouldn't rebel from their own points of view. I agree with Dalinar's actions in this case, but I see no point in trying to justify his action as being a divine right or because he's a leader. Elhokar did not decide to go down this path, Dalinar did. Dalinar has taken the throne in essence, even if he's allowing Elhokar to be a figurehead. Edited February 18, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Goodpoint Malazanwhiskey ! That said - was he fighting for shards, or just out to kill someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrono Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Adolin also mentions the The Way of Kings that he is underestimated because he refuses to fight in duels that would put him in reach of the Championship Title. I'm guessing that the other Alethi think he's cowardly and backs out because he thinks that he would lose (which is not very Alethi). After all, if he was really that good, he'd be champion already. In reality, Adolin refuses out of a token allegiance to the Codes, which I think not very many Alethi know or even suspect. Moogle, when did Dalinar ever threaten Elhokar to make him Highprince of War? IIRC, he gave him the classic beatdown to prove that he was loyal and that he didn't want to kill him. In fact, he tells Elhokar that if he is Highprince of War, he'll protect him and find out who's trying to kill him. Unless you're talking about the extremely veiled threat in that statement. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) I agree with Dalinar's actions in this case, but I see no point in trying to justify his action as being a divine right or because he's a leader Who made any statement that his actions were a Divine right? has basically threatened to kill Elhokar if he doesn't name him Highprince of War Err Moogle, Dalinar specifically states that he would never kill Elokhar. He did tell Elohkar that if Elohkar behaved like a child, then he (Dalinar) would treat him like a child...which he immediately started doing to a certain degree. .................... And you are also exactly right with the High Princes wishing to rebel. It's a foreseeable and understandable consequence - hence another plan is needed to bring them in line...without murdering people (yes, that's a shot at both Mr T, and Amaram) ...................... And they did however swear fealty to the King - they don't know what Dalinar did to become High Prince of War - and so they are in essence rebelling against the King.As Dalinar's general noted - if the proclomation doesn't work, it will undermine the throne itself. So the point with the King still stands. .................... The questions that appear pertinent to this discussion are : - what are you prepared to do to achieve a unified, just, and peaceful kingdom? - what are you prepared to do to save the world?; and more specifically - if it is necessary to unify to save the world, and people won't unify - what are you prepared to do in order to achieve that unification? In the first question, we see Nohadon's solution - which arguably isn't too much different than Dalinar's. Dalinar appears to be trying to do it without 'the sword', though he only got to that position through the sword several years prior. We see Mr T's method for achieving the last question. And it contrasts directly to Dalinar's method, though Dalinar is not quite as certain about the nature and breadth of the threat. You posit it as a question about justification, while I see it as a balance between necessity and human right/compassion/cohesion etc - in differing circumstances the weightings will be different. Edited February 19, 2014 by vikorr 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiskeyJackDaniels Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Goodpoint Malazanwhiskey ! That said - was he fighting for shards, or just out to kill someone? I just went back and read the quote. Apparently Gavilar had Sadeas duel and kill someone named Yenev, a Highprince that was against the unification of Alethkar. The quote doesn't specifically mention shards at all, so it could have been just conventional weapons, but that seems unlikely for a duel between Highprinces. It wasn't a duel for shards or honor though, it was a duel to kill someone over a disagreement. Still interesting that Gavilar chose Sadeas to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimwick Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Sadeas was definitely a very good swordsman. Dalinar, the Blackthorn, greatest shardbearer in the army, thought Sadeas to be an amazing swordsman. He also cut down Highprince Yenev, who probably had pretty good training and equipment. However, he would be inexperienced, considering that he used a warhammer rather than a sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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